Some issues with Vietnamese transcritption
A couple ponderables: do we want to transcribe both ch and tr as stops, or as affricates? Currently they're mixed.
Do we want b and d as implosive, or glottalized? The former is graphically simpler, but implosive d interferes with tone marking in a lot of fonts.
Do we want final i, u as [ij, uw]? Final c, ng after o, u as [kp, ŋm]?
The tone transcription is fairly straightforward. Is it an adequate generalization of the dialects? Is using a tilde for dipping tone acceptable as a graphic approximation, since the correct IPA diacritic is not widely supported?
Do we want to transcribe CuyV as C[ʷj]V or C[wj]V?
- Since tr can be [c] in some dialects, I'd say we avoid it as a transcription for either. Then, to be fair, we transcribe both as affricates.
- I'd argue for the implosives, though I wasn't aware of the way implosive d interferes with tones.
- Are the [ij, uw] of final i, u different than the realization of English /i u/?
- [kp, ŋm] seems like a valid representation. They are technically coarticulated, though hopefully that won't be an issue.
- No comment on tones.
- I don't like C[ʷj]V. I'm not even sure if C[wj]V is accurate. [[Vietnamese alphabet transcribes the front element of that as [i].
- On a side note, ɉ shows up as a box for me so it def. shouldn't be used as a common transcription variant. If it corresponds to [ɨ] then we maybe should transcribe ư as [ɯ] and ươ as [ɰə]. — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 06:40, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
- One problem with [tɕ] for c: As a syllable coda, it is an unreleased stop. It's only in the onset that it's ambiguous. [c] allows us to keep the same symbol in onset and coda. I've seen [ʈ] used--for example by the orthography to IPA converter linked at the Viet phon. article--but it's relatively uncommon, perhaps because it doesn't occur in coda position.
- [kp] is s.t. just strongly labialized [k].
- [ij]: don't know. the diphthongization is supposed to be quite noticeable, but I've never had a good ear for Vietnamese.
- For words like Nguyên, both the u and the y are semivowels before the nucleus of ê. I need to check if this only happens after velars, in which case we might be dealing with labiovelars followed by [j].
- [ɰə] noted.
- If we use [ɯ], then to be consistent we should probly use [ɤ]. However, besides these being less accessible / familiar symbols than [ɨ] and [ə], many phonologists argue that the distinctive feature is centrality rather than roundedness. kwami (talk)
- I know you really wanted to create a parallel for the Polish and Hungarian IPA templates where orthography can be plugged in and IPA transcription can result, but if we have contextual allophones like that, we may not be able to do so.
- While I'm not necessarily a fan of incorporating allophonic labialization into the key, I suppose we could use ʷ for both the strongly labialized velars and for the wjV sequences.
- It seems odd to me when phonetic characters are decided along phonological criteria. I'm not so convinced about accessibility either since we've got the IPA characters underneath the edit box and all four characters are equally untypable. We don't need to make the system look nice and tidy. Heck, we could even use [ɰə] for ươ and [ɨ] for ư. — Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 17:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
[ʒ] or [z]?
Is it true that g (before e/i) is [ʒ]? I haven't seen that described for Vietnamese except as a possible allophone of /r/ in the South. Isn't it actually [z]? AlexanderKaras (talk) 03:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
- Different dialects have different conflations. [z] is unambiguously written <d>. <r> is [ʐ]. — kwami (talk) 06:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Aren't all diphthongs falling in Vietnamese? The other material I've read on it (which is admitted not much) seems to suggest that. So Nguyễn would then be pronounced [ŋʷiə̯ˀn˧˥], correct? The method we currently have seems to suggest some are rising and some are falling. I'd just like to confirm that's right - AlexanderKaras (talk) 22:32, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- No. Cua (/kuɜ˧˧/) is one example where it doesn't fall (except in the esoteric Hà Tĩnh dialect). – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 19:20, 21 September 2011 (UTC)