Module talk:Citation/CS1

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Et al 2[edit]

In English, abbreviations are set off with a comma, e.g. like this. This applies to "et al." equally, i.e. Smith, Jones, et al. When used with two or more names, the APA style expects it, viz. http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2011/11/the-proper-use-of-et-al-in-apa-style.html. Similarly for Grammarist. As does ICMJE. Chicago says to use a comma unless there's only one name written in full. That's everybody except Trappist the monk, so I've restored my edit. Any third opinions? --RexxS (talk) 22:00, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

When I reverted your edit, in my edit summary I wrote: cs1|2 not bound by ICMJE; historically, cs1|2 has not used a comma before et al.
I've written this before: cs1|2 are not APA, are not Chicago, are not Bluebook, are not LSA, are not ICMJE, nor are they any other style. Certainly cs1|2 have been influenced by these styles but are not beholden to them.
Here is a simple {{cite book/old}} using {{citation/core}}. It has nine authors so it generates et al. in place of the ninth:
Author1; Author2; Author3; Author4; Author5; Author6; Author7; Author8 et al. Title. 
This form has been in place since this edit to {{citation/core}} on 7 October 2009. That style continues in use to the present day in Module:Citation/CS1.
In the edit summary of your revert of my revert you wrote: not bound by your preferences either - see talk. I have made no claim of personal preference with regards to a comma preceding et al.; if you can show where I have, please do so, otherwise, please do not put words into my mouth that I have not spoken.
Trappist the monk (talk) 00:16, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
RexxS has made a bold edit, and that edit has been reverted. Now we discuss. That's how WP works. Let's not have an edit war in a sandbox.
One of the things that we typically do on this page, or on Help talk:Citation Style 1, which is watched by more editors and serves as a better place to discuss changes to the module, is suggest a change and show some examples of how the change would be implemented. Then the change, if it meets with approval (or at least tentative approval, or perhaps aggressive lack of interest, or outright ambivalence), can be implemented in the sandbox and examples of the before/after rendering can be shown.
A suggestion has been made to insert a comma before "et al." in author and editor lists. Shall we attempt to implement that change in the sandbox and then display some test cases here to see if it works as intended? – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:21, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
One of the problems that besets Wikipedia is that it is being fossilised by editors who insist that "we have done it this way in the past" is an argument against any change. It isn't any argument at all. @Trappist the monk: Your revert summary made two points, neither of which provided any objective reason why it would be better to have no separator before " et al." Your argument is clearly then nothing more than your personal preference, and I make no apologies for pointing that out to you. I have provided multiple objective reasons: the use of commas before abbreviations is standard English grammar; all other style guides that I know of require a comma. I know we're not obliged to follow other style guides, but a lack of obligation to do something is poor excuse for not doing it, and I'd ask why you would not want to adopt a style that was consistent with what readers see in almost every other serious publication? --RexxS (talk) 11:58, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Do not presume to think that I am opposed to change; I am not. For evidence of that look at the history of this module; read Help talk:Citation Style 1 and its archives.
Lest you continue to put words into my mouth that I have not spoken, let me definitively state my position with regards to punctuation preceding et al.: I am neither in favor of nor opposed to punctuation preceding et al. in editor- and author-name-lists; in short, I do not care.
If the community are content to have et al. rendered without preceding punctuation, then I accept that. If the community determines though discussion that cs1|2 should render et al. with preceding punctuation, then I accept that.
Trappist the monk (talk) 13:14, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Support – The only argument presented above for not including a serial comma before "et al." is that it hasn't been since 7 October 2009 which is not a strong argument. Furthermore the removal of the comma was apparently made with no discussion. As journal style guides overwhelming support including a comma, the argument in favor is much stronger. Boghog (talk) 03:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Partial support: I think that "Smith, Alan; Brown, Jane; et al." makes sense. In the standard CS1 style, I support changing to use a semicolon before "et al.", not a comma, because other authors are separated from one another by semicolons. If the separator of choice is a comma (i.e. |mode=cs2|name-list-format=vanc), then use a comma before "et al." – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:39, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
    |mode= does not change the style of separators used in the author and editor name lists:
    |mode=cs1:
    Last1, First1; Last2, First2; Last3, First3; Last4, First4. Title. 
    |mode=cs2:
    Last1, First1; Last2, First2; Last3, First3; Last4, First4, Title 
    but |name-list-format=vanc does:
    Last1 First1, Last2 First2, Last3 First3, Last4 First4. Title.  Vancouver style error (help) – the error here because the example uses enumerated names
    Trappist the monk (talk) 11:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Good point. A semicolon should be used unless |name-list-format=vanc or |mode=cs2 in which case a comma should be used. Boghog (talk) 04:28, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
I corrected myself above. I'm not used to these new formatting parameters, but I knew there was some way to have commas separating names. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
The new |vauthors= and |veditors= cause the module to rewrite their content as a last-first list and then render it in Vancouver system style without requiring |name-list-format=vanc.
Trappist the monk (talk) 14:05, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Partial support per Joensey95 for consistency with the existing formatting and how this is done in other style guides. Imzadi 1979  04:07, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Support. Serial comma is the norm here, and so far no real objections have been raised. "Standard English grammar" is of course a red herring, as these are citations rather than sentences. My only concern would be to clarify usage when combining individuals with corporate authors. LeadSongDog come howl! 12:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Et al 3[edit]

Please see this thread at the Helpdesk. The author name Sheetal is being rendered as She et al. in {{citation}}. Something to do with the regex for et al., apparently. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 18:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

(ec) For details, compare:

  • {{citation |first=Sheetal |last=Ranjan |chapter=Crimes Against Women in India |editor-first=N. Prabha |editor-last=Unnithan |title=Crime and Justice in India |year=2013 |publisher=SAGE Publications |isbn=978-8-13210-977-8 |url=https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=k_6HAwAAQBAJ}}
  • Ranjan, Sheetal (2013), "Crimes Against Women in India", in Unnithan, N. Prabha, Crime and Justice in India, SAGE Publications, ISBN 978-8-13210-977-8 

This is evidently caused by the over-eager regexp in the following code line:

local pattern = ",? *'*[Ee][Tt] *[Aa][Ll][%.']*$"

which will recognize an "et al" mark even if it has neither a space between the two words nor a word boundary before it. Could we have a "\w" check or something of the sort built in to the beginning of that regexp to avoid this?

Fut.Perf. 18:34, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Specifically, I'd recommend replacing ",? *" with "(, *| +)" (i.e. either a comma plus optional space, or at least one space to separate the "et al" string from the preceding text). Fut.Perf. 06:53, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Lua doesn't support the regex alternation |operator. Fixed in the sandbox I think:

Citation compare
{{ citation | chapter=Crimes Against Women in India | last=Ranjan | editor-last=Unnithan | isbn=978-8-13210-977-8 | first=Sheetal | publisher=SAGE Publications | title=Crime and Justice in India | editor-first=N. Prabha | chapter-url=//books.google.co.uk/books?id=k_6HAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA249 | year=2013 }}
Live Ranjan, Sheetal (2013), "Crimes Against Women in India", in Unnithan, N. Prabha, Crime and Justice in India, SAGE Publications, ISBN 978-8-13210-977-8 
Sandbox Ranjan, Sheetal (2013), "Crimes Against Women in India", in Unnithan, N. Prabha, Crime and Justice in India, SAGE Publications, ISBN 978-8-13210-977-8 

Trappist the monk (talk) 13:19, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Hm. Like practically everything else that happens here, you are talking in cryptic terms that simply fly over the head of most people. Does fixing in the sandbox mean that there is going to be a proper fix or am I supposed to work it out by deploying whatever hack you did there? Female infanticide in India stills shows the error. - Sitush (talk) 19:56, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
The sandbox is the development environment for the citation templates. Changes are introduced and tested there, typically after a discussion like this one. Once the changes have been tested, the changes are moved to the main module, which makes them active in the templates. Because the citation templates are used millions of times in articles, the main module code is changed only once every few months. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. Your response makes sense, although I'd query the testing bit given the number of bug reports that seem to appear here ;) - Sitush (talk) 01:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Let's add a collaboration parameter.[edit]

Large science projects will very often have massive list of authors. See for example, the 2012 Review of Particle Physics list of authors. The usual way of citing these massive collaboration is typically to have "J. Smith et al. (Collaboration name)" or similar (for an Wikipedia example, see [1].) This is usually achieve with the less-than-desirable a)

 |author1=W.-M. Yao ([[Particle Data Group]])
 |author2=...
 |display-authors=1
 |year=2012
 

which yields the broken/incorrect W.-M. Yao (Particle Data Group) et al. (2012), or sometimes with b)

 |last1=Yao |first1=W.-M.
 |last2=... |first2=...
 |coauthors=et al. ([[Particle Data Group]])
 |year=2012

which yields a correct Yao, W.-M et al. (Particle Data Group) (2012), and other similar hacks.

The real/best solution would to add a |collaboration= that would allow to write c)

 |last1=Yao |first1=W.-M.
 |last2=... |first2=...
 |display-authors=1
 |collaboration=[[Particle Data Group]]

or alternatively d)

 |last1=Yao |first1=W.-M.
 |last2=... |first2=...
 |display-authors=1
 |collaboration=Particle Data Group |collaboration-link=Particle Data Group

in order to generate the correct Yao, W.-M et al. (Particle Data Group) (2012).

This should apply across the board, in both {{citation}} and {{cite xxx}} styles. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 19:45, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

You can now do |last1 = Yao |first1=W.-M. |display-authors=etal rather than |last1=Yao |first1=W.-M. |last2=... |first2=... |display-authors=1. --Izno (talk) 16:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but that's not really relevant to the collaboration parameter. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 01:50, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Which is why I marked it up with a small?... I suppose I could have done a <aside>...</aside> to be all Html 5-groovy... --Izno (talk) 03:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Discussions like this should be at Help talk:Citation Style 1. The Module talk:Citation/CS1 talk page is for discussion of how to code up the consensuses arrived at over there.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  02:11, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
I really, really doubt anyone would oppose this. The current options (A and B, above) cannot possibly be what consensus wants. The only thing tricky bit would be whether we want a |collaboration= + |collaboration-link=, but personally I would leave that to template coders to decide on.Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 12:39, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Error message[edit]

Where can I find the error message saying that if I provide an archive-url, I also need to provide an archive-date? Debresser (talk) 01:31, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

In Module:Citation/CS1 search for the string local Archived. A couple of lines below that is: ArchiveDate = set_error('archive_missing_date');. archive_missing_date is defined in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration.
Trappist the monk (talk) 02:12, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Or you can see it in action here:
"web page title". Archived from the original on |archiveurl= requires |archivedate= (help). 
Is that what you wanted? – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:02, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
I was looking for the string "|archiveurl= requires |archivedate=" Or it doesn't work like that?
In any case, it should be "|archive-url= requires |archive-date=" Can somebody fix that? Debresser (talk) 12:08, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Fixed in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox. Also fixed |archive-url= requires |url=, Check |author-link= value, and |display-editors= suggested.
Trappist the monk (talk) 12:21, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Also fixed access-date, archive-date, doi-broken-date, lay-date, and publication-date in the call to dates() in Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox.
Trappist the monk (talk) 12:29, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Reprinted ed.[edit]

Hi,

Just noticed, on Thomas Lodge, that I get a CS1 warning about "Extra text" for a Cite book with the param "|edition=reprinted". I imagine this is not the intended behaviour. :-)

  • Tenney, Edward Andrews (1969) [1935]. Thomas Lodge. Cornell Studies in English 26 (reprinted ed.). Ithaca, N.Y.: Russell & Russell. 

Cheers, Xover (talk) 09:08, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Fixed in the sandbox.
Trappist the monk (talk) 10:42, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Illustrated[edit]

The same sort of problem as for reprinted happens with edition=illustrated. Any word in edition= ending in ed can trigger the match. eg

  • Salmon, John S. (2001). The Official Virginia Civil War Battlefield Guide (illustrated ed.). Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books. ISBN 0-8117-2868-4. 
I hope you have already solved this as per above. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:12, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes.
Trappist the monk (talk) 23:20, 26 August 2015 (UTC)