Talk:420 (cannabis culture)/Archive 1

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Movie, High and Mighty

I removed the reference to the movie The High and the Mighty for several reasons: first the movie makes no drug references at all. the 420 flight number is merely a conicidence and the date of the film 1954 FAR predates even the earliest reference to the source of 420. That judt doesn't seem to fly. If anyone has documentation to show I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me.--Lepeu1999 20:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

XM Radio

The XM channel "the boneyard" mentioned on the site has recently been changed back to "Liquid Metal" or "XMLM" just in case someone else didnt catch it.

Bob Marley

Isn't 4:20 celebrated because of the death of Bob Marley, a legendary cannabis smoker? Xephyrwing 00:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

  • No, look at his article: Bob Marley. He didn't die on April 20th. Jdcooper 12:41, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

But Bob Marley's fourth son Stephen was born on April 20. fruitsalad 27 May 2006

Own article

While the article was crap, it is certainly true that 420 is connected to the marihuana crowd. A serious article about this would be interesting. AxelBoldt

but should it be on a apge of its own or a part of the article on marijuana in general? -- Tarquin
This as it is is not an article. I think it belongs with the marijuana article, and maybe mentioned on April 20's page. --KQ
Part of the marijuana page might work, April 20 I disagree with though... it celebrates both the time and date.
Way to spell pot. Although on the keyboard the J and H are next to each other and may sound similar, they have one big difference. They are not the same letter.

"Hardcore smokers..."

Hardcore smokers smoke-out at 4:20 AM, claiming that 4:20 PM is actually 16:20 (military time). Really, really hardcore smokers smoke-out at both 0420 hours and 1620 hours.

Marijuana is not a drug and 4:20 is the time to smoke. I think- I know that everyone would be so much more happier if they would just SHUT THE FUCK UP AND SMOKE A BLUNT GOd DAMMIT!

Well, it is kind of amusing, but not really either true or helpful. I would suggest that if you really really want to keep it you try to attribute it to someone as a quote. I think that's the only way that it would make any sense. Mark Richards 20:58, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I re-added Hardcore smokers smoke-out at 4:20 AM, claiming that 4:20 PM is actually 16:20 (military time). I posted that sentence long ago, and it is true. The other part (Really, really hardcore smokers smoke-out at both 0420 hours and 1620 hours.) is a joke someone else added. I am not re-adding the joke part. Kingturtle 21:36, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I agree, it is funny, but is there really any basis to this? I am very sure that there are some 'hardcore smokers' who smoke out at 4.20 am, but do you think they are more likely to smoke out at 4.20 am than 2.am? Or 16.20 for that matter. And what about hardcore smokers who are in the military? Enquiring minds want to know.... Also - can we attribute the claim to anyone more specific than 'hardcore smokers'? Mark Richards 01:04, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yes, there is a basis to this. I happen to live in a 4:20-obssessed county. Kingturtle 20:30, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Really really really hardcore smokers smoke every hour on the :20 since it is always 4:20 somewhere in the world.
Although your comment is cute, it is not practiced. Kingturtle 20:30, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)


I changed "(military time)" to "(24 hour time)". (yes, i'm pedantic.)

I dare say that if I'm awake after 2 am I and intend on staying up for a while I make it a point to hold out on smoking until 4:20 am. I know many people that do it also. gwalters 15:51 22 April 2006 (CST)



Drug Culture?

Personally, I disagree with this page having the term "drug culture" in parenthases. It should probably be noted somewhere on the page (and on the marijuana page as well) that marijuana isn't a drug.

Most specifically, marijuana (aka "hemp") is a plant that has many uses. It just so happens that this plant contains a natural biochemical called THC which is often identified as a "drug" (as though it were a pharmacudical substance) by certain oppressive and anti-individualist cultures.

I'm not just ranting because I'm pro-marijuana, this is a technical issue that should bother anyone with half a brain. Likewise, tobacco isn't a drug, it's merely a plant that happens to contain the natural "drug" known as nicotine.

Also, unless someone can prove unequivocally that people who smoke marijuana are involved in the use of actual drugs (heroine, cocaine, ecstasy, crystal methamphetamine, etc.) then it seems erroneous to classify something having to do with marijuana as a part of "drug culture". Note that until the early 1900's, marijuana wasn't considered a drug, nor is it considered as such by some modern cultures. This is a recent invention of fascist governments that wish to deny the rights of certain minority groups, and when viewed in terms of world history, the position that marijuana is a "drug" is a minority view (mainly because of how recent it is; the vast majority of people throughout history held no such position).

Anyway, th

Appreciate your points, and agree that careful usage of the term 'drug' may not include the plant itself, but the term 'drug cutlure' is used to refer to people who smoke the plant, and ingest the drug for recreational purposes, whether legal or not. Wikipedia does not take a view on whether any particular item should be classified a certain way, it simply notes that it usually is. Some kind of caveat may be appropriate. Mark Richards 22:18, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Whether marijuana is a drug or not, 420 is still considered part of drug culture. But... we can always move it if there's a better name. I can't think of one though. --Headcase 08:01, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Marijuana has never been a drug, and never will be a drug

^ | |Your mom is drug!!!! All your mom belong to 420!!!!

Smoking Marijuana is most definatly using a drug. The cannaboids and THC react with the CB1 and CB2 receptors in the brain. Marijuana itself may be just a plant like an apple, but an apple does not react with receptors in your brain, and interact with the biochemical pathways. THC however, interacts with the CB1 and CB2 receptors, inhibiting adenylate cyclase and thereby inhibiting production of the second messenger molecule cyclic AMP. 128.113.195.139 00:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

When somebody speaks of 420 they are talking about using Marijuana as a drug. In this context Marijuana is most certainly a drug. Don't deny it.

Marijuana seems to fit many of the definitions for the word drug in wiktionary. Do people that claim it's not a drug have issue with the definitons there? Mathiastck 17:47, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Albert Hofmann reference

I just became curious whether the Albert Hofmann bit was actually correct. It is, according to his book where a facsimile of his lab journal from April 19, 1943 reads:

19. IV./16.20: 0,5 cc. von 1/2-promilliger wässeriger Tartrat-Lösg. v. Diäthylamid peroral
= 0,25 mg Tartrat. Mit ca. 10 cc. W. verdünnt geschmacklos einzunehmen.

Glad that Wikipedia proved reliable regarding this important fact ;) regards, High on a tree 03:04, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mesopotamia

In 420 BC, the Mesopatamians fed their cattle cannabis as an alternative to wheat. - source? Zoe 05:41, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Even with a confirmed source, this note seems quite ridiculous owing to the apparent specificity of the date. Did the Mesopatamians feed cows cannabis the year after or the year before? (or was it just a short lived experiment?)Guliolopez 15:05, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I was going to blow up over his one too. "Certainly they did it, as a reference to drug culture. And what is more, in 419 they stopped doing it." I think it should be taken out on account that it has nothing to do with encyclopedic aims of wikipedia. Divad 20:02, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Never mind the fact that in 420BC they didn't use the dating 420BC. BC/AD is a bit more recent then that.--Lepeu1999 20:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Afternoon Tea?

Afternoon tea could be taken at 4.20pm? Well it could - and at 4pm etc. Secretlondon 23:18, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

4:20, stopped clocks and secret signals

While travelling in Thailand some years ago, and staying with a "child of the sixties" who kept a private guest house for more "serious travellers", I commented on the fact that all the clocks in the longhouse were permanently stopped at 4:20. It was pointed out to me that (during more draconian times) a clocked stopped at 4:20 was a furtive signal to like minded visitors (and hopefully not to any "visiting" authority) that you were in safe company for smoking. Given that this retains some validity today, I am surprised not to see a mention of the "secret signal" practice in this article. Had I a more solid source than word of mouth from an aging stoner, I would add this note to the article proper myself. (Not that one more flaky reference would even be noticed in this entry) Guliolopez 15:05, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Yearbook experience

For a time during my senior year in high school, I worked for the yearbook staff. One submitted senior quote was:

Print exactly as shown:
4 years
2 many memories
-----------------
0 regrets

After we realized what he was up to, we changed it to "Four years, too many memories, zero regrets". And that's my 420 story. -Branddobbe 04:08, 2 October 2005 (UTC) Bart Simpsons birthday is April 20 Aka 4:20

date contradiction

The article claims that:

"In the 1936 anti-pot classic "Reefer Madness", there is a brief subliminal flash showing 4:20 with a marijuana leaf in the background."

This seems to contradict some of the origin theories earlier in the article, which suggests dates after 1936 for the invention of the phrase (1970s, 1939, 1955, 1943). These cannot both be true. Can anyone confirm that there actually is a "brief subliminal flash" in Reefer Madness? Neilc 09:25, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, we could check - it's a free download. Reefer Madness. Trollderella 19:49, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
Actually, the 420 flash was only added in the colourized version which was released within the last 5 or so years. Cryo (Tox)

Sourcing of info

Many elements of this page were lifted verbatim, without attribution, from Phish.net. That source is listed at the bottom as an external source, but that doesn't justify or permit the wholesale taking of many many copyrighted sentences. Airumel 21:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

4:20 or 4/20?

I've alwaays heard 420 as being the day pot smokers smoke more pot than usual, rather than the time they smoke. I've also only ever heard it as being a sort of celebration of Hitler's birthday. Just thought I'd comment. —User:ACupOfCoffee@ @ 08:49, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe 4:20 to be the older form. Also, although weight is given to the San Rafael theory here, I believe the term dates from the thirties (prior even to the H. P. Lovecraft quote), and will update when I have a good citation. -SM 20:00, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I've always seen it written as just "420". 65.95.159.228 00:30, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Note that it is -not- a kind of celebration of hitlers birthday, in the text it is not so clear, but it says that potsmokers stand for the opposite of everything that Hitler was. // flibben

Home Economics

I've always heard 420 referred to being connected with cooking. Where the recipe calls out "put in oven at 420(deg) and bake" Anonymous 'Baker' 22:55 23,December 2005


-4:20 has been used so long that it has become a famliar and symbolic marijuana myth. Still used, seen, and practiced. Most of the 4:20 origin are simply fables or urban legends: Police radio code-4:20, Allen Ginsberg writing expeiernce-the clock read 4:20. There should be a seperate category devoted to the fabels, and origin myths...

removed UVM's tradition

Removed:

At the University of Vermont (UVM), students gather in the center of campus on April 20 every year at 4:20 p.m. to smoke marijuana. Generally, the police leave participants alone, though in recent years UVM authorities have made efforts to halt the annual event.

I don't think we should list every college that has a 4:20 4/20 smoking session. —alxndr (t) 18:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but some mention must be made of the number that do. Mathiastck 18:30, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Songs of 4:20 length

Ok, I've got about 56 songs on my playlist that are 4:20 in length. Unless a song has additional references to cannabis culture, it doesn't belong here.

Dropping 2 links

Hi all, I have dropped 420chan dot org (420chan) potblog dot com (Pot Blog) The first is offline most of the time and a porn linker in the other. The second is Google Adsense trap.

Partial clean-up

  • I have tried to weed out (geddit) the stuff that was off-topic or unrelated. I think we can safely leave out listing songs that happen to have lengths of 4:20, unless they have some other connection to marijuana (like the Boston example). The Doors' one wasn't even 4:20, more like 4:08 on the original version of LA Woman! I got rid as well of the references to Hitler, I find it highly unlikely that that is the origin of the term, and certainly if it were to be put back in, we would need a source that seriously debates that being the actual origin of the term. On the topic of sources, some would be nice, at the moment this reads like a bunch of coincidences that, although maybe seemed wondrous when they were realised, are simply patent original research without sources. Feel free to discuss any of the bits I took out (I'll have another look and see if I missed any other turkeys) but you have to admit this article was riddled with inaccuracies and irrelevancies, no? The only other thing that occurs to me, are we allowed to show a photo of a whole bunch of people contravening the law? Do we not need their permission or anything? Just a thought, I have no idea about these things.. Jdcooper 01:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Teatime?

"Some members of the northern California medical marijuana community believe there is a link between the time 4:20 and the British concept of Teatime"

I have removed this bizarre claim to the talk page because there is no assertion of notability or verification. Please elaborate on why anyone thinks this and what they actually think (what is the link, etc), or better yet provide some sources, so the wikipedia community can discuss whether it is worth inclusion. Wikipedia is not a compendium of stoner conspiracies! Jdcooper 01:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Jdcooper request for source, but I'm afraid he is mistaken on another point. Wikipedia is a compendium of stoner conspiracies! Mathiastck 18:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

No need for coincidences in this article

It seems like a lot of the 420 occurances in this article are coincidences, or the link is sketchy at best. For example, since the article claims 420 originated in the 70s, why are there any references to it before then? --Frantik 07:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree (unless they are in the origin section maybe, but even then their inclusion has to be justified). Take them out if you don't think they should be there. Jdcooper 20:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, I have to disagree. Regardless of the timeframe, these so-called coincidences are still interesting. This is meant to be about the appearance of the number 420 in cannabis culture, not merely a historical account of the term's origin. For example, I believe that many people find H.P. Lovecraft's use of 4:20 in his description of a hallunicogenic plant interesting, and simply because he used this term before it was popularly appropriated seems rather irrelevent-- cannabis aficianados today are aware of this story and its reference, and therefore it is meaningful to an article regarding 420 in cannabis culture. The article clearly states when the term originated, and the readers of wikipedia are smart enough to judge for themselves what is a "coicidence" and what is not. LearningKnight 15:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree with LearningKnight. It's tricky to pin point origins in cases like these. Trying to trace all the symbolic uses of a number, and pinpointing when it was first widely used as a specific symbol is pretty difficult. Collective unconscious and all that. Mathiastck 18:23, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Unless it is clear that a 420 reference undoubtedly relates to marijuana, I think that it should be listed on the page for 420 (number). Just because there's a sequence of the numbers 4, 2, and 0 it doesn't mean that it's relevant to this page. CenozoicEra 22:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
  • If the nursery rhyme 'Sing a Song of Sixpence' has no references to 420 and was written before "baked" became connotated with marijuana smoking (and in the context of the poem, baked refers to baking a pie), why is it in this article?

Another interesting coincidence that I just calculated: Obviously, this NOT the origin of the word, but the Hebrew word for “smoke,” “ashan” (Ayin [70] – Shin [300] – Nun [50]), adds up to 420, without the use of a final Nun. --Scottclemens 21:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Madison smokeouts

There was nothing in this artical about the Madison smokeouts at the state captial and school campus' which is the first theory i heard about.

  • I'm suspicious of that explanation; I've lived in Wisconsin my entire life and in Madison for the last ten, and the infrequent "weedfests" and so forth have never been on April 20th to my knowledge. KASchmidt 21:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

you shouldnt smoke because its bad for your lungs

It's true, many people would be better off eating it, taking a pill, etc. The problem is that is a more expensive method of consumption, especially considering black markets have trouble taking advantage of economies of scale. Mathiastck 18:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Temporary protection

I think this page should be temporarily protected until 4/20 is over. It's just too tempting a target for vandalism. One person's already tried to vandalize it twice today. 70.29.1.155 07:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Protection is not to be used in advance of possible vandalism. Also, both instances were by the same user and if the user vandalizes again, they will be banned for 24 hours. If this page becomes the target of widespread vandalism, then sprotection will be considered, but until then, the page doesn't need it. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 07:57, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree it should not be protected, I think it's likely that a lot of productive work on the page will be done today :) Mathiastck 18:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Word of mouth but a bit sensible

I am looking for sources to confirm or deny this, but I recall someone mentioning to me at some point that there was a band that would start their concerts at 4:30, and all the audience members would start smoking at 4:20 so they would be high by the time the band began to play. --Zanthra 08:53, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

  • They probably did. If you can sort out useful info like which band it was, and source it, then that sounds like a reasonable addition.. Jdcooper 12:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Sounds preposterous to me. Rock band concerts are generally evening affairs, except for weekend "all ages" shows. If any band with a significant following insisted on playing only at 4:30 (AM? PM?) this idiosyncrasy would be notorious. If it's some obscure local band, seems unlikely to be the cause of a national phenom. And how many unknown bands can dictate starting times to their venues? Bustter 17:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Inclusion of false origin theories.

What does anyone reckon about including the theories of 420's origin which are clearly not true (such as Bob Marley's deathday)? Technically i suppose they aren't really encyclopaedic, as they are lies, but it gives context to the actual origin, and people still believe them, so should they be left there with the refutations, for informativeness? Even if we don't include them in the article, people are still going to add them as theories, just without the refutations that accompany the factoids currently. Thoughts? Jdcooper 16:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Common fallacies certainly are encyclopedic, just as every legitimate encyclopedia will address the George Washington "cherry tree" myth.
The current division, giving primacy to one commonly accepted (though not proven) origin, a second group of possible, but unsupported origins, and a third group of refuted theories of origin, seems fine to me.
I just made a slight change to these sections. There are two origin theories that refer literary works. One makes reference to Lovecraft, another to a child's nursery rhyme. The Lovecraft theory was among the "possible" origins, while the nursery rhyme was listed as "refuted."
I can't imagine how one could possibly "refute" either the Lovecraft or the nursery rhyme origin. One might conclude either, or both, to be unlikely; either or both could be "dismissed" on the basis of logic or instinct, but that is not "refutation." I moved the nursery rhyme theory out of the "refuted" list, to the "possible origins" list. If someone knows how it was "refuted," please restore it to the refuted list with appropriate reference to a refutation. Bustter 18:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I thin the origin of 420, like many counter culture phenomenon, is a frequent subject of urban legend. Listing stated origins, if you can find a source and aren't doing original research is fine, The origins themselves are false but it can be true that they are widely repeated. Mathiastck 18:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


As far as the rumor that 420 is not a police code...That is false. I was arrested a few months ago with some of my friends smoking in my car. On the ticket that I got the description was "minors in possesion of intoxicants" and it was in the vilation box had "420" written in it. gwalters 15:46 22 April 2006 (CST)
If you tell us what state or city that was, we could look up the statute/ordinance and verify it. --Metropolitan90 04:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
This wouldn't prove anything about origin even if it was citable. It wouldn't surprise me if Police also use 420 as code for marijuana. A large percentage of officers smoked it before enlisting. Mathiastck 19:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

good music for 420

i.e bob marley, pink floyd, etc. someone should make a list in the discussion of some good chill music when smoking. haha

I think it already exists as a seperate entry, listing a certain category of music, (I can't recall the name) Mathiastck 18:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


something i once read in Rolling Stone about all this 420 madness was that jerry garcia of the grateful dead's official time of death was 4:20 am. This seems like an interesting coincidence, but i am not sure how true it really is...

  • I don't know if that was his time of death, but that can't be the origin of the 4:20 "tradition", since Google Groups shows that people were discussing the association of 4:20 with marijuana more than a year before Garcia died. [1] --Metropolitan90 04:38, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

April 20th events and traditions

Perhaps there should be something here of the tradition of a large gathering of smokers going to Canada's Parliament Hill on 4/20 and lighting one up by the centennial flame? ;) Rizla 20:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Re Norwalk, Ohio: I openly admit my source for this is completely anecdotal (though credible), from a friend who attended college in the area. But it's a great "fact" regardless. :) Mashford 14:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Songs with duration 4:20

I have literally hundreds of songs in my media player with duration 4:20, that alone does not warrant mention on this page. That is not an "occurence in music". Please can we leave it out unless there is a plausible specific link, like the Boston song. And that definitely includes the Green Day song, I see no particular link between it and marijuana, or anything to do with marijuana, save for the name of the band, which is not sufficient enough, in my view.

What about the Bob Dylan one? It was released in 1966, before the article's stated origin for this term, but there is a very definite link to marijuana smoking, if a very tenuous further link to the number 420 (why is multiplication a link, can someone explain?) I don't mind either way whether its there really, but I think its worth discussing, if anyone has any strong opinion on the matter? Jdcooper 21:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The fact that it predates the term is itself the argument for its possibly being a source for the term. The generally-accepted origin -- among a dozen kids at a local high school in 1971 -- is not proven. No one claims "multiplication is a link," but rather that the inclusion of two numbers in a song title makes the product of those numbers, 420, implicit in the song title.
While 4:20 is not a highly unusual song length, the product of two two-digit numbers has a much wider range, making this a coincidence of a higher order, and therefore more plausibly the term's origin. This is also one of the very few Dylan songs that achieved "top 40" status, which meant wide radio play at the time. The fact that there exists no rationale for the occurrence of the numbers 12 and 35 in the song title seems like an invitation to the "heads" of the era -- no small number of whom were dylan-obsessed -- to make something of it. The possibility that some group of them did -- perhaps those kids at San Rafael High school -- is there.

H.P. Lovecraft

The same HP Lovecraft reference occurs multiple places in the article. Someone should remove all but the first (there are two that I noticed; there could be more) once the page is unprotected. KASchmidt 21:39, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Yep, three times, but now just once, well spotted Jdcooper 00:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Hitler's Birthday

I see references to April 20 as Hitler's birthday have been removed, but I think they should be left in. Wikipedia's article on Hitler does cite his birthdate as April 20, 1889. This should at the very least be left in "Other plausible suggested origins", since it is. I've heard this explanation more than others. --LakeHMM 04:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

  • No, how is that plausible?! Are you saying that such a widespread term is a celebration of Hitler's birthday? I can see no possible reason why such a link would exist? If you can find a reputable source where someone has actually seriously suggested that the two are linked, and I must stress reputable, then fine, I'll support inclusion, but until then Hitler strikes me as wholly irrelevant to this article. What would be the difference between including Hitler, and including everyone else born on that date, including, to name but a couple, Muhummad, Napoleon III of France, Tito Puente, Edie Sedgwick, Jessica Lange, Luther Vandross and Carmen Electra? Sorry if i appear sceptical, but i can't fathom the logic at all... Jdcooper 00:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Hitler is probably the most famous of any of those. It could also be an attempt at irony. 65.95.159.228 00:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
    • How is Hitler more famous than Luther Vandross? Jdcooper 00:51, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
      • Luther who? 67.165.201.214 17:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
      • yeah no idea who luther is and i cant be bothered looking it up...--203.122.193.244 05:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm not saying it's necessarily true, but neither are many of the things listed on the page. It simply lists common theories, and this is definitely a common theory. And yes, Hitler is certainly more famous than Luther Vandross. Why? 'Cause he killed more people. --LakeHMM 04:36, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
    • "definitely a common theory" - needs to be sourced. otherwise that theory will never go beyond original research Jdcooper 16:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
      • There are websites that claim it could be from Hitler's Birthday. One site said, "A final but certainly not exhaustive explanation is that 420 originated from Adolf Hitler's birthday. One smoker explained: "Hitler represents in sharp opposite contrast all that the marijuana-smoking community stands for." This theory, like the theories above, cannot be proven to have any direct reference to 420." Here's that link: http://hempfest.org/420.php Now I may not agree with it, it's certainly a theory as to the origin. --Sloan47 16:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I strongly suggest that the origin of 4:20 came from Hitlers birthday, in fact prior to reading this article it was the only origin in my mind. The logic behind a stoner celebration on Hitlers birthday is because Hitler disapproved of smoking pot and now it is smoked on his birthday to show a high disrespect for him.

  • This means nothing without proof. Many origins of the name have been heavily researched. If this was a plausible origin, it would have come up.--Aleron235 00:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

its just that hitler's birthday is common knowledge in connection with 420. it should be put up.

  • Yes, but whose common knowledge? certainly not mine, or any of the other people who disagree. please source claims, especially controversial ones. Jdcooper 16:45, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed the line. If it is true or not, no citation is available, and the plausability of this idea is in dispute. It is better to make an error of ommision than an error of fact. IMHO HighInBC 17:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

If we are going to include that ridiculous allusion to Hitler here, we absolutely must include a reference to a REPUTABLE source that has cited that as a possible explanation. Otherwise it is just non-notable stonercruft/original research. Jdcooper 02:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

It's common knowledge that he was born on 4/20... savidan(talk) (e@) 23:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the birthdate of one of history's most famous celebrities is common knowledge, but we need a source that that is anything other than utter coincidence. Jdcooper 00:56, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

This is absolutely ridiculous. It's more than coincidence because it's commonly associated with it. You can't expect to find scholarly theses on this topic. Furthermore, there aren't citations for most of the other supposed origins, so why is this one being opposed so strongly. Also, Jdcooper, just because you oppose this doesn't mean you should create another section so it can be debated again. This had already been discussed. If you have anything more to add, add it here. I've moved all pertinent discussion to this section on the Talk page. --LakeHMM 04:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

commonly associated? Not in my experience, nor has any citation shown so. I said it before and I will say it again: When unsure, an error of omission is preferable to an error in fact. And 'One smoker explained' is not a proper citation. HighInBC 16:47, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
That's not the only citation. There's a link. And I'm not unsure as to whether or not it is a "possible suggested origin". I am absolutely positive it is. --LakeHMM 19:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Yup, because that link details various different theories, and it is listed as one. I reworded the passage slightly to clarify why the fact that it was Hitler's birthday would lead to it being a significant thing for smoker's to celebrate. Jdcooper 19:39, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

SB 420

Chapter 6, of Division 10 of California's Health and Safety Code, which implements a medical marijuana identification card programme was passed as Senate Bill 420 (2003).

Source? This seems worthy of mention, drug culture references in State codes? I dig it :) Mathiastck 19:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is a reliable source: http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/03-04/bill/sen/sb_0401-0450/sb_420_bill_20031012_chaptered.html

2003 is too recent for this to be the origin of the term, but certainly it's worth a mention. Bustter 15:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Failure to Launch

I'm not sure if this should be included, so I'll say it here and hope others will decide.

In the 2006 Film "Failure to Launch" the house where the main character Tripp lives with his parents has the street number 420.

208.182.181.58 15:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

I think the layout of this article needs sort of cleanup. What do you think? --Deryck C. 16:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Propose a different layout and we'll discuss it... I have no problems personally with the current one. Jdcooper 16:45, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Peephole

I removed the reference to the system of a down song, because it was too speculative. What exactly does "It was supposed to be 4:20 long" mean? And the lyrics were about cannabis, so what? Lots of songs are about cannabis, if it was 4:04 then it doesnt belong here. And I'm unconvinced generally that bands deliberately write songs to be 4:20. Jdcooper 10:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

  • I did a look at about 8000 songs a while back, and the amount that were 4m20s fit statistical likelyhood. For what it is worth. HighInBC 17:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Funny elink

Anyone else deem this link worthy? http://thatvideosite.com/view/2270.html ? savidan(talk) (e@) 23:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

He'd have won the electric guitar if only he'd stuck with 420, but he boosted to 1420. There's a note on the page that the site will be redesigned, I'd wait and see what the valid link would be after the redesign. Bustter 15:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

To LakeHMM

With respect to your kind good-faith comments, this is the text on the source site: A final but certainly not exhaustive explanation is that 420 originated from Adolf Hitler's birthday. One smoker explained: "Hitler represents in sharp opposite contrast all that the marijuana-smoking community stands for.". Surely this is implying that the term derived from Hitler's birthday as a kind of ironic statement, a big middle finger up to Hitler? I am fine with this staying here, as long as it is sourced (which it never has been before) as long as it is written in this way. To include Hitler's birthday is April 20, but Hitler has nothing to do with stoner culture is not a "possible origin theory", it is either a "refuted urban legend" or plain original research which does not belong. I am not "stubborn" about anything but having sources for controversial claims. Jdcooper 00:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Beatles

Their famous song "Come Together," which is a huge part of drug culture is 4:20 long on the CD version. Coincidence?

  • yes, coincidence. the term was not in use at the point that that song was released, and statistically speaking, 4:20 is pretty much one of the most likely durations a song can have. please do not add any reference to this, it has been removed several times before and continues to be unencyclopaedic and irrelevant. Jdcooper 02:11, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Personal attacks removed

I have removed a post due to personal attacks. It can be found here[2]. HighInBC 15:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Please refrain from making threats to cultural groups. This is not the correct website for such views. If you present a more articulate argument based on established facts then you will find a better reception to your ideas. HighInBC 15:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Columbine High School massacre

Any link between 420 and the Columbine High School massacre which occurred on 20 April 1999? --Kvasir 06:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not. As it has been noted, many notable events have taken place on April 20th. It's just a coincidence. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Columbine massacre had anything to with marijuana or marijuana culture. LearningKnight 17:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, 1 out of 365.26 events occur on April 20th, being on the same day is not enough, some kind of further connection needs to be shown to indicate it is related to the 420 cannabis culture (which is after all the topic of this article.). This is the same reason I removed the Hitler's birthday reference. 1 out of every 365.26 historical figures was born on April 20th. The Columbine massacre is no more relevent here than on the bowling article, as that is what they were doing just before the attack. HighInBC 20:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I think that the Columbine massacre was planned for 4/20 not because of marajuana, but because it was Hitler's birthdayBassman444 14:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
A Google search columbine & 4/20 & marijuana reveals that this is a persistent myth (over 11k hits). Since no one living is privy to the planning, a connection cannot be denied definitively. This should be mentioned, along with the fact that there is no evidence to support the connection so many have made. Bustter 15:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Even though it may be a myth that Columbine was planned around 4/20 for the reason of 4/20's connection to marijuana, it's just like HighInBC said. One out of every 365.26 events occurs on 4/20. Perhaps putting in a reference that says somethihng to the effect of that there are many myths involving events that have taken place on 4/20, and a pointer to the page for April 20th? --Junaos 17:18, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Regardless, 11,000 hits for columbine AND 4/20 AND marijuana demonstrates that a startling number of people believe, and are spreading, the trope that Columbine is connected to the 420/marijuana phenom. Obviously this requires mention; avoiding its mention out of a desire to keep marijuana culture "untainted" -- which is what we have right now -- is itself a violation of NPOV. Bustter 17:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Good Eats

The article says that in the show "Good Eats" the clocks are set to 4:20, but I haven't found this to be the case. I was wondering if anyone could cite episodes and scenarios that showed clocks set to 4:20. 68.53.231.172 01:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Other pop culture occurences=

I'd like to see a threshold on the pop culture occurences section. Specifically today I would consider the Dutch coffeeshop and the Japan head shops simply marketing, and since neither instance is pop cultured enough to warrant its own Wikipedia reference, unneccesary.

  • If you think they are non-notable, then be bold. Jdcooper 11:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


re: good eats

I don't remeber the episodes but the analog clock in the background while he's talking to the camera read 4:20 MPaquette 15:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


Slang Terms

I decided to remove the "Marilize Legajuana" reference from slang terms, because I saw no relevance to the topic (420)...is there any relevance here that I wasn't aware of? --Junaos 03:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

In my school district's (Madison Metropolitan School District) handbook, rule number 420 states "Possession of a controlled substance or illegal drug with intent to deliver: Suspend for five days and recommend for expulsion." I would think that's interesting, i scanned the page for proof too. http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i289/poisonthewell614/img004.jpg —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.226.164.148 (talkcontribs) September 12, 2006 (UTC)

Questions and Concerns q

MORE EASTER EGGS. Night Stand, the top rated clock application for apple mobile products thumbnail is set to 420 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.196.48.179 (talk) 18:50, 4 January 2011 (UTC) Someone added the Abraham Lincoln quote again and I deleted it for complete irrelevancy and whether or not you have a source it is probably not true. The world is flooded with fake Lincoln quotes. --Fragility (talk) 16:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Source 9 is questionable at best, no sources are cited for any of the quotes, and there is no evidence that Lincoln said any of that. i am removing it. contact: dankery.jah420.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.53.133.3 (talk) 13:19, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

someone changed the edit I made so that the article again reads Abe Lincoln said something about "sweet hemp" when there is no single other reference to this quote other than the article that is cited. The author of the cited article has no sources or even explanation for where this quote came from and thus it is unsound to put that in this article as fact. I am changing it again. If you think it should stay please explain why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dankerydotjah420net (talkcontribs) 06:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I think that "National Pot Day" is one of the largest names for 420. Dont know why that isn't in the article somewhere. Triplejx no seas mamon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.79.105.27 (talk) 14:33, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm expressing a keen sense of distaste for this article, mostly for its lack of information. The origins and meaning of the term "420" was left in the hands of High Times magazine founder Steve Hagar, with an article he wrote in 2005 called "The Power of 420". Regardless of the lack of information pertaining to its origin, I feel that this page could include a vast amount of information about the cultural effects 420 has had on Stoner Culture since its beginning. What about the values of 420, 420 as time, 420 as a date? The fact this article is semi-protected is irritating to some of us that know a great deal about stoner culture, because there's nothing here that is useful. Unprotect it and let the people learn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MahJesus (talkcontribs) 17:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not 100 percent sure by any means, and I don't have any sources for this claim, but I've heard it somewhere that marijuana was originally associated with 420 because of the claim that it has 420 or 421 chemicals in it. It seems to me that the association could be due to 2 scenarios. Either it was a sort of labeling from the authorities in an attempt to classify or refer to this emerging "subculture" or maybe it was due to the fact that this claim is somewhat misleading, that of the 421 chemicals in marijuana, only 61 are unique to marijuana. The chemicals are known as cannabinoids. One of them, delta-9 THC, produces the psychoactive effect and is the focus of most research. The other 360 chemicals in the marijuana plant are found throughout other natural substances. So it seems to me that it very easily could have been jokingly referred to among pot heads, or even proactive decriminalization experts in a way to make public the exaggerated information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.99.9.17 (talk) 17:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I've read several times that the "legend" of 420 (and what I've read is essentially what is reported here) is just that...legend. Or apocryphal. Or, at best, unverified. I don't know enough to say whether the references cited here are sufficient proof or not. PurpleChez (talk) 21:26, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

In San Francisco there was a popular music venue on Broadway called "The Stone". The address for "The Stone" was 420 Broadway. Many people in San Francisco have attributed this as the origin of the term "420". I think it's safe to assume we may never know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.92.74.86 (talk) 17:54, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

April 20 is the Rastafari equivalent of Christmas Eve. April 20 is the eve of Grounation Day (21 April), the second most important holy day of Rastifari, It is celebrated in honor of Haile Selassie's 1966 visit to Jamaica. (See Wiki entry on the subject). Somewhere around 100,000 Rastafari from all over Jamaica descended on Palisadoes Airport in Kingston, having heard that the man whom they considered to be God was coming to visit them. They waited at the airport smoking lots of ganja, and playing drums (See Wiki entry on the subject). Most of those whom gathered at the airport arrived the day before (20 April). As quoted elsewhere on this page it is very likely that Bob Dylan's 1966 song (recorded two months of the Selassie visit) is about the event.. "everybody must get stoned".... 12x35=420. So 420 appears to come from a religious festival based on important events that actually happened on 20 & 21 April and are of significance to those who believe in the spiritual use of cannabis (Rastafarians). Many 'days of note or celebration' are based on religious events or festivals (e.g.Halloween is the 'eve' prior to All Saints Day, at one time an important Christian holy day of obligation, 1 November) as opposed to being based on the random behavior and habits of drug addled California teenagers. Where did that come from?? Terrza (talk) 17:52, 21 April 2009 (UTC)Terrza (talk) 17:57, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Am I the only one who thinks the term originated from the arm positions of someone lighting their bong? From the right side a bong smoker's stretched arm and bent arm look like an analog clock's big and small arms at 4:20. Who ever originated it must have always sat on the right side of the couch, if they were on the left they would have said it was 8:40. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.202.247.254 (talk) 22:00, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

i believe the reason national pot day is referred to as 420 is becasue that was the date of the first pro-cannabis rally. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.183.132 (talk) 16:19, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

LSD

I was reading the protocol of the first LSD-Trip written by Albert Hofmann, the inventor of that drug. He starts his test at 4:20 pm on the the so called "bicycle day". This was 04/19/1943. Does any one of you ever heard of that possible origin of the 420 number? Maybe the kids of that high school choosed that time because it was the time LSD was taken the first time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.61.253.186 (talk) 08:39, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I also came across the same potential origin of 420, which I added to the page since it was as good a theory as any of the others presented in the article and readers should be aware of that coincidence at the very least. Unfortunately, it was deleted by another user hours after its posting. I'd be interested in learning why this was done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.230.251.137 (talk) 16:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

My opinion is, it has very little to do with cannabis, and, without references connecting the two, as anything other than a coincidence... (Ie, did anybody go to the statue at 4:20pm, to take acid?) -- I mean, given that there are only 144 10-minute chunks of time, per day (4:10, 4:20, 4:30)... It's not unlikely that it is just a coincidence. Frankly, I think it deserves to be taken down... Somebody else can put it back up, if they feel it deserves to be there, or if they can provid some sort of reference.

It just stands out, from the rest of the article, especially as the article is referring to cannabis culture, and not acid/LSD culture. MassesOfTheOpiate (talk) 22:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Almost guaranteed to be nothing more than a coincidence. User: MahJesus —Preceding undated comment added 17:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC).


Happy 420... This was stolen from ME by SOMEONE, when I was 15 it was written on my bedroom wall after a friend of mine and I got really wasted, I wrote on the wall, "4:20pm, STONED AGAIN!" and it obviously leaked out cause that was 32 years ago...

It has nothing to do with the date ;o) Puff Puff Pass!!! ☺ SR386! (The Bob and Steve Show Still Running Wild in America!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.38.159.109 (talk) 18:38, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Styx

The reference to "light up" needs to be re-added. It's fully cited and if you check the links you'd see that one of the citations states that it's a "Pot 10 Classic Rock Song" Austin Chronicle. Why was it deleted? 24.99.202.64 (talk) 19:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Pulp Fiction

In Pulp Fiction, all of the clocks are set to 4:20. A reference or coincidence? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.254.43 (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Bonadea. You edited a resource and external link from 420(cannabis culture). I was attemting to add a resource/external link due to a definitive history re 420 truths and myths and a history/time-line re marijuana. Some of the site may be promotional re celebrating April 20th 2008 but the pages I tried to highlight are extremely informative especially re 420 and does dispel myths i.e Pulp Fiction clocks all set to 4:20- ( only 4:20 in Pawnshop scene ). The Time-line/history are also very informative. Please can you re look. I made mistakes trying to input the link - it is http://www.fourtwentyday.com/history_pt_1.html ( -PT_2.html for cannabis history . If allowed can you input. Thanks Rocky (Rocky Green (talk) 11:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC))

Ya, they are only set to 420 in the pawn shop scene. And even then, it could have just been 4:20. س (talk) 06:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
What? Another coincidence in a movie about drugs? How's it a coincidence that more than one clock in the scene is set to 4:20? It's a movie scene, someone set those clocks to that time on, do you honestly think any clock there actually works? Stop the ignorance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.58.126 (talk) 11:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
More than one clock said 420? The thing is that clock generally are set up to match each other. س (talk) 04:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
All you need to do is watch the movie and pay attention. Although the watch on Butch's wrist should show a consistant, accurate time of day it doesn't. That sequence in the movie happens in the morning, not in the afternoon. When Maynard calls Zed the time on the clock reads 9:20. As Butch escapes there is a big yellow clock, it reads about 10:07. As Butch is "shopping around" for a weapon at the counter the clock on the wall (the same one that said 9:20) as he grabs the sword reads about 10:07. These are consistant with the time of day this scene takes place in the story. As he walks down the stairs there are three clocks that you can read (one has too much glare or dirt on the front to tell), two of them are at 4:20 the third (same as the one over the gimp's shoulder in the previous scene) is hard to read, it's about 11:50 but it isn't clearly visible like the rest. There are no "happy accidents" in well-directed movies, you are meant to see those clocks read "4:20". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rossdotcom (talkcontribs) 16:23, 15 April 2008
The problem is that watching the movie and noticing a pattern and documenting it is original research, which is outside the scope of an encyclopedia. We are not creators of original research, we document what is available from already published reliable sources. Wikipedia:No original research is one of our guiding content policies. س (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Is a movie not a citable source? <ref>Pulp Fiction, Miramax Films, 1994.</ref> Chin Chill-A Eat Mor Rodents (talk) 15:34, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I think they are referring to the leap from seeing the clocks say 4:20 a few times and making the connection to cannabis culture. What we would need is some interview with the director, etc., confirming the connection. xenocidic (talk) 15:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


"No Original Research" means assertions if published are okay, but observable facts need not apply. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.77.67 (talk) 12:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Hitler's Birthday

Hitler was born on the 20th of April. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Somnolence (talkcontribs) 23:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

1 in 365.2425 people we born on April 20th. That is over 6.4 million people if you only count the living. If you count the dead then it is a lot more. س (talk) 16:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
There's an uneven distribution of births ie more people are conceived during the winter than the summer so that's not quite accurate.
That is true I suppose. Okay, allow for a range of error of 20% and my point still stands. س (talk) 15:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
While true it is balanced by the fact that winter in one hemisphere is summer in the other (though true because more people live in the northern hemisphere) and the fact that many people live in the tropics. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Some people who celebrate 4/20 think it's because of hitler's birthday that it's 4/20, maybe that should be included in the article? --Jim Raynor (talk) 17:41, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Is there a reliable source you can site that makes that assertion? Otherwise it would be original research. س (talk) 18:49, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure there are plenty of sources. the_undertow talk 21:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I do believe he meant sources that people who celebrate 4/20 think it's because of hitler's birthday. and any self-respecting pothead will tell you hitler's birthday has nothing to do with it. xenocidic (talk) 00:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
A Boulder police detective tells incoming CU freshman that 4/20 took off on the CU campus because there was no police presence on Farrand Field (the original location of the Boulder 4/20 event) because on April 20, 1999, there were no police present due to the Columbine massacre that day, which allowed the students to smoke marijuana without getting ticketed. The Columbine massacre happened that day because it is Hitler's birthday. Word spread, and the event grew in popularity every year - until it became what it is today. It seems like indirectly, the coincidence of Hitler's birthday with the 4:20 time of day at least enabled the event to become more popular. 128.138.64.105 (talk) 21:52, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, some people celebrate the day because it's Hitler's birthday - which was an official German Holiday before any pothead was lighting up in honor of this day, and any self-respecting Neo-Nazi would tell you that today has nothing to do with weed. the_undertow talk 00:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
You may remember a little thing called the Columbine massacre. Perhaps you've heard of it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.77.67 (talkcontribs) 12:20, 8 June 2008
Ya, some guy comes a long every few days and mentions it, not really news or on-topic. 1 != 2 13:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It is also the birthday of Joan Miró (1893-1983), the creator of a system of artistic "writing" which appears on many of his paintings and represents prophetic statements such as you might be capable of making after serving a few tokes. Also visit the Miró statue in downtown Chicago to learn how to make elegant elongated chesspieces. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tokerdesigner (talkcontribs) 18:56, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

how does this comment along with the attached citation not apply???? April 20th (4/20) is also the birthday of German Chancellor Adolf Hitler who is thought by many to have been an avid marijuana user [3] http://entertainment.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978185750 the wikipedia Verifiability policy CLEARLY states "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.201.93 (talk) 23:06, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

The source doesn't say "thought by many." The source clearly takes a justifiably humorous approach to the subject, as there is not evidence whatsoever so support the notion that Hitler was an avid user, or even an occasional user. OhNoitsJamie Talk 23:13, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

"thought by many" was an attempt to show that it is not universally accepted. a google search of "hitler 420 marijuana" turns up "about 109,000 hit". it is clear that the relationship is WIDELY discussed even if often only for the perceived need to claim no relationship and sometimes to show a relationship even if it is considered humorous. How in the supposed free speech of wikipedia can this be addressed in the article without the threat of being blocked? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.201.93 (talk) 23:30, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Don't add it again unless you can develop a significant consensus to do so. All that a Google search proves is that they are mentioned in the same page (which makes sense, because they are coincidentally on the same day). OhNoitsJamie Talk 00:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

please define "significant consensus" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.201.93 (talk) 03:29, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

also, a google search for "hitler" and "Marijuana" together turns up 8,490,000 results. there is obvious talk about a correlation, even if it the need of people to deny it. Banning information about this link is tantamount to censorship and contrary to the purpose this wiki was created. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.201.93 (talk) 03:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Google search != reliable source. Enforcing WP:Verifiability and WP:UNDUE is not censorship. If you want to publish your opinion, make a blog. OhNoitsJamie Talk 16:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

the fact that there is even a talk topic about proves that it IS indeed relevant and the massive amount of internet traffic about the subject is indeed verifiable by definition. there should be an added topic on the page discussing the issue as it does exist, is relevant and contributes to the topic. PROHIBITING it's inclusion therefore is indeed censorship based solely on one administrators opinion on what that particular administrator WANTS included in the topic, and what he does not desire to be in the topic. According to Wikipedia, the definition of censorship "the suppression of speech or deletion of communicative material which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient to the government or media organizations as determined by a censor." [4] . in this case, you are the censor. the intent of this project is to include all relevant and verifiable information. this is purely objective and not what "should" or "shouldn't" be included. Millions of websites discussing the matter is indeed verification that it is a related topic. In the future, please do not allow you opinion to cloud your judgement. --68.35.201.93 (talk) 23:22, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

You can wikilawyer here till you are blue in the face. As I said before, don't add it again unless there is a consensus to include it. OhNoitsJamie Talk 23:26, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

once again, how do YOU define consensus? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.201.93 (talk) 23:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)


"Wikilawyer" defined as "when a person superficially judges other editors and their actions by jumping at conclusions and slapping labels while brandishing Wikipedia policies as a tool for defeating other Wikipedians rather than resolving a conflict or finding a mutually agreeable solution." how is this not what you are doing to posts on this page? Unilateral censorship cloaked as defending policy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.201.93 (talk) 23:51, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Rumour has it that the Neo-Nazi movement, looking at any possibility for support, created the buzz around 4/20 or 4:20 as a way to trick counterculture people into helping make a holiday of their hero's birthday. It makes a lot more sense than the San Rafael high story which really is grasping at straws because 4:20 is just a random time with no meaning given and the story doesn't even make sense- why was this a repeat meeting? If the prior was the case then its architects certainly were successful. In any case it is notable enough to merit inclusion, even if only to mention the controversy. Batvette (talk) 20:14, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
We don't do "rumors." Without a reliable source, it's not going to be added, period. OhNoitsJamie Talk 20:29, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Somebody's already offered sources. So which shifting argument are you standing on, sourcing or concensus? Or do you want to make up another reason? Seems to me several editors offered sourcing and valid reasons why it should be mentioned, can you offer reasons within wiki policy it shouldn't? Batvette (talk) 07:29, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

420 Campaign

Information about the 420 Campaign was removed on 27 March on the grounds that it was "off-topic and promotional." These claims seem unfair. I'm returning the section to the article on the grounds that various marijuana groups have recently employed the 4/20 date as one for consciousness-raising and political activity. Hiplibrarianship (talk) 03:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Other than taking the name for their cause I see no connection. All of the linked citations referred to the cause and made no reference of 420 other than naming the campaign. While I am sure the campaign has embraced 420, it does not really seem they they have much to do with the term. I have also embraced 420 in my personal life, but that does not mean I am relevant to the article. س (talk) 16:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The article isn't about "embracing 420" -- it is about the use of the number in cannabis culture. Marijuana reform efforts (by various groups) that take place on April 20 (or encourage political action to take place on April 20) clearly fits within the scope. The naming of the campaign is tied to the April 20 date itself, specifically because that date has increasingly been associated with cannabis culture observances. The use of the 420 number/date could not be more clearly connected to cannabis culture than in the name and focus of the 420 Campaign. The section was deleted by vandalism on 15 April, and I am restoring it to the article. — Hiplibrarianship (talk) 02:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Well I think that other than the fact that they have chosen to associate themselves with 420 that there is not much else. I will however defer to the opinions of others in this matter and see if any further consensus forms. س (talk) 05:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Lovecraft

While this is an interesting theory, it seems like original research. It has been here in the past and was removed due to lack of citation. Can it be shown that an existing reliable source sees this as connected to the cannabis culture term 420? س (talk) 13:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I just removed the following passage, of seemingly original research, since it lacked a citation:
An older origin for the term may have been from "In the Walls of Eryx" by H.P. Lovecraft, where the main character has been influenced by a "mirage-plant", loses his perception of time, then looks at his watch to see that it "was only 4:20."
I understand that the "mirage-plant" is assumed to be cannabis, but there is no source for this claim. — Hiplibrarianship (talk) 06:41, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Bradley or Pasteur?

There seems to be an inaccuracy in the first paragraph: it mentions the "Bradley Elementary" statue, whereas (as implied by the picture at the bottom of the article -- why at the bottom I wonder???) it should be the Louis Pasteur statue... CielProfond (talk) 02:26, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Just someone posing, it has been corrected. Thanks for pointing it out. س (talk) 15:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
April 20 2008, G4 TV interviewed the "Waldos" and they confirmed most of what is in the article, including shots of The Actual Pasteur Statue: http://www.g4tv.com/attackoftheshow/videos/21343/The_Waldos_Truth_Behind_420.html?videoCategory_key=8 (might be good as an External Link?) 199.214.26.9 (talk) 18:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Now that is interesting. س (talk) 20:05, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Stephen Stills?

Is there any reason for the bizarre mention of Stills? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamandrewssoul (talkcontribs) 18:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Potential sources

None of these are appropriate where they were formerlly located as External links. However some looked reasonably reliable sources and may prove to be useful if anyone wishes to improve the article.-- The Red Pen of Doom 17:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

potential source list

New Zealand

I have tried to add information about the international spread of 420 and how it is now being picked up by University students in New Zealand, but it keeps getting deleted. Please leave this information as it is relevant and interesting to people who are interested in the growth of the 420 phenomenon. I have re-added this information and provided some of the most specific references available. Please do not delete this information, if you have issues with how it is presented change it constructively. If the sources I have provided aren't satisfying, try Otago Daily Times, TV One New Zealand and TV 3 New Zealand for further corroboration. Thanks 139.80.33.95 (talk) 19:15, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It will continue to be deleted until it is properly supported by published reliable sources. Read our policy: WP:V. -- The Red Pen of Doom 22:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I have reinstated the information about New Zealand with a reliable source that the original author seems to have missed. Both TV One Close Up and Critic Te Arohi Magazine are reliable unbiased sources. The references provided verify the history of the 'protest' mentioned in the article (TV One) and that the frequency of the protest is now twice weekly (Critic, about halfway through the article). Hopefully this will be satisfactory to both parties, otherwise a third opinion will be sought. Cheers. Otepoti history (talk) 01:02, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I have reinstated the factual information for the New Zealand group, it has been repeatedly pointed out that the group still meets and that the arrest of the leader was at an unrelated event that was not a 420 meeting. Read the articles cited to verify these facts. The recent edits made to try and change the story appear to be an attempt to slander the New Zealand group and to give the impression that they no longer meet and that there was some sort of successful police intervention, both of which are untrue and this is abundantly clear if you actually read the cited articles. The editor who suggested that this was resolved ages ago is right, it was and then someone made these malicious changes recently, I was simply reverting them. The editor who made the malicious changes has been repeatedly shown to have POV and COI issues when it comes to edits regarding the New Zealand 420 group

Snopes

http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/420.asp
This article should be expanded debunking some of the most common misconceptions. For years, I thought 420 was the penal code for a marijuana offense in California. Not so. Of course it needs better sources than a Snopes page, but I don't have the time right now.--Muboshgu (talk) 12:49, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

There has been consensus in the past that there was no point in listing all the ways that 420 did not come about. There are literally hundreds and they are not well documented by independent reliable sources. Chillum 14:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
Maybe it should be added to the article that there are many stories surrounding the origin of 420. Thepillow (talk) 09:32, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

420 is the police code for Marijuana use. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.173.12.147 (talk) 16:39, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

420 is a police radio code for "Juvenile Disturbance". A search of Bay Area police radio codes, including San Francisco which is near San Rafael, will verify this. Therefore, Snopes is plainly wrong in stating, "420 is not police code for anything". Many arguments follow therefrom, that 420 must refer to the time of the day. This is conclusory and should not be stated as fact, given the existence of a police code that refers to both juveniles and highjinks. Further research, not false assumptions, is needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theaternearyou (talkcontribs) 17:24, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Anyone is welcome to research and present reliable sources to support new content. Chillum 17:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

That origin story is a complete myth. And also Bob Dylan turned The Beatles on to pot.-Lemmonn —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.222.52.208 (talk) 05:23, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Here's the best version of the story yet - someone with more time should disect this and enter it all: [5]

From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/20/what-420-means-the-true-s_n_188320.html (they need credit, of course): —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidcbaker (talkcontribs) 18:19, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Contents of article removed, link is above.
Thanks for that, though the link is enough. We don't really have the correct copyright license to be posting the whole article. People can look at the link and use it as a source they see it fit. Chillum 18:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

This is not "the best version" of the story. The Waldos wrote their own explanation of how and why they created the code. It was also published on the Huffington Post.

April 20th

Is there any connection with this number and Adolf Hitler's birthday? 勇敢な要素 (talk) 09:51, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

No, its purely a coincidence. Outback the koala (talk) 22:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

San Francisco

Hey yinz guys how come there ain't a mention of San Francisco in this here wiki? Golden Gate park is filled with folk smoking that marijuana every 20th of April. Eh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.137.24 (talk) 10:02, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

UC Santa Cruz

I've been a student at UC Santa Cruz for almost two years now and I know for certain that 4-20 is celebrated at UCSC. 76.126.21.16 (talk) 18:47, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite

I'd like to try to get a few people together to help me rewrite this article. It's really not helpful or informative at the moment, and continuing to add on sections about specific regional and collegiate celebrations is really making this thing look sloppy. I mean, frankly, it's so bad, even I'm making jokes about how lazy potheads are. I don't really think I can/want to tackle this thing on my own, but if anyone else out there wants to help me out, I think we could really make something better than this junk. Any takers? --Leodmacleod (talk) 20:07, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Philippines

The information about the Philippines seems not really relevant. I think the statement made about this country is valid for many countries, so why mention it specifically for this country? Furthermore, it lacks a source. I'm removing the statement. Feel free to reverse if you disagree (with argumentation please) Thepillow (talk) 09:38, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Kurtdh, 20 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

Please edit the following sentence " The teens would meet after school at 4:20 p.m. to smoke marijuana at the Louis Pasteur statue."

This is factually incorrect. The teens would meet after school at 4:20 p.m. to attempt to find a plot of marijuana plants that a Coast Guard service member supposedly abandoned. It just so happened that they would smoke marijuana on their way to locate the plot. Please correct this. Thank you. Source follows:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/20/420-meaning-the-true-stor_n_543854.html

Kurtdh (talk) 20:16, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

The intro as well as the first section Drug Term Meaning Origin are almost exactly the same, they just sight different sources. Maybe someone can clean this up. The intro is well written and quotes a real source, then the first sectioin is a repeat with the claims of a different source but no actual link—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.16.78.252 (talk) 21:01, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Done Cleaned up the wording to match sources. -- /MWOAP|Notify Me\ 21:15, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

2010 sources

Some 2010 sources referring to 420:

Relating to Colorado:

--Another Believer (Talk) 21:17, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

4:20 4/20 420

Although there are apparently multiple ways to express the term; I suggest that the article at least be consistent in the one it selects. Some are even in quotes while others are not. "420" and '420'. --JimmyButler (talk) 11:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit Request - 4/20 leads to April 4th not April 20th

Can someone with confirmed privileges redirect this link to April 20th? This is the second sentence in the article. Farley13 (talk) 14:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 81.100.245.194, 21 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} At the top, [4/20] is sometimes referred to as "Pot Day". The link goes to april 4th, it should be april 20th.

81.100.245.194 (talk) 14:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Already done -- /MWOAP|Notify Me\ 15:18, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

TV coverage 2010

The cable TV channel G4 "celebrated" 4/20 by playing Half Baked (among other stoner comedies) and even going to every commercial with a "Happy 4/20" title card. The Colbert Report also observed the day.

This isn't much in terms of information for the article, but it does show that 4/20 has been getting a little more mainstream every year. Maybe something to keep in mind for a future section? - tbone (talk) 15:52, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Pre-1971. Sorry kids.

The fact that "420" was concieved in 1971 is false. Source: The 13th Floor elevators recorded "Slip inside this house" in 1967. A reference to "4 and 20" is in the lyrics. psycodelia rocks!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_Inside_This_House http://www.texaschapbookpress.com/magellanslog3/slipinside.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.238.188.209 (talk) 22:05, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

"Four and twenty birds of Maya" are the lyrics in question. It's WP:SYNTH to assume there is any relation to that line and the current usage. See this page for an explanation of all of the lyrics (including that line). OhNoitsJamie Talk 21:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
Especially given that it is obviously a reference/homage to the "four and twenty blackbirds" of the old nursery rhyme. --Khajidha (talk) 13:29, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Louis Pasteur?

What the hell is a picture of a statue of Louis Pasteur doing on this page? Is there a purpose? Cowik (talk) 05:25, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

How about reading the first paragraph about the origins of the term before posting this question? --89.15.9.65 (talk) 09:19, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 20 April 2012

 Done

Please consider a revision to the last sentence of paragraph two under origin:

He would go on to attribute the early spread of the phrase among Deadheads.[7]

This doesn't make sense as written. Perhaps he attributes the early spread of the phrase to Deadheads, or he popularized the phrase among Deadheads. who were responsible for the term spreading beyond the readership of high times. Or some other intention of the author.

Thanks!

Jman53705 (talk) 16:11, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

the content was added by someone whose series of edit summaries include "fix LOL sorry enjoying the day" - so perhaps s/he will be able enter a more coherrent explanation of what the source says at a later date. -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:04, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
pls fix statment at will - all can see the source.Moxy (talk) 17:15, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
(not everyone, some nanny monitors dont really care for that source) -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:18, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
sources says "One reason is because San Rafael is the home to the Grateful Dead and 420 spread for many years within the Deadhead community before it appeared on the Hemp 100 in HIGH TIMES".Moxy (talk) 17:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Pre-Usage of 4:20

I think there is plenty of room on this skimpy 420 cannibis culture page to include alternative mentions to the specific word "420." Especially on a page the concerns itself with the etymology of a word. While it's obvious that 420 originated in recently modern times, the use of the word predates that and would make for a noteworthy section to this article. Leitmotiv (talk) 21:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

If there is any, actual reliable sources that discuss previous uses, fine. But you cannot just go scrounging around to find mentions of 420 that happen to have close proximity to something maybe druggie in nature and make such a connective claim yourself. -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:26, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I think you miss the point again. I'm not claiming it's related to drugs! You are making that case. I am not. I am making the case, that this article has room for usage of the word PRIOR to it being taken over by the 420 culture. Like I said before... a page concerning itself with etymology, should pay attention to previous instances and not just a static state of the modern usage of said term.
Why would we cover non cannabis culture usage of a term in this article about the usage of the term in the cannabis culture? -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Because the term is related. If someone wants to learn more about the word 420... where do you go? To this article. If it's not 100% related it is at least in part, and it may be that there is room on this skimpy page to discuss preorigin usage. Especially if enough sources exist to show evolution in the etymology or paralleling unrelated usage. In plain terms, for research! For anyone wanting to know more about the usage of 420.Leitmotiv (talk) 21:35, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Read WP:V, WP:OR and WP:NOT. Until you bring a third party reliably published source that has aleady made the research connections to the subject of this article rather than your personal interpretation of primary sources, "other usages" are NOT going into this article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:40, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm well familiar with those pages. I cited HP Lovecraft and his preusage. I did no original research since I did not suggest the term was related to cannabis culture. You did however. You also knee-jerked undid my edit. Understandably of course. By the way relativity in this case would mean that someone directly related to the coining of the term would be a primary source. Leitmotiv (talk) 21:39, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
You DID do original research. You are asserting based on your interpretation of the primary source that a random passage in Lovecraft is related to the use of "420" in cannabis culture simply by including it in the article when there is NOTHING in the original source to connect it to that topic.
or you are doing a WP:COATRACK of including something entirely irrelevant to the subject of the article.
Either way, its not acceptable. -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
1. I did not assert that it's related to cannabis as noted by the headliner "PREUSAGE" meaning before it was used as the modern cannabis term. I reiterate that the only person here asserting that it's related to cannabis is you as exemplified by your undos.
2. It is not COATTRAK, I've already said it's etymologically related. Usage of the term 420 PRIOR to cannabis culture exists, and would be worthy of documentation on a page that frequently makes usage of the term. Etymological reasons are PERFECTLY acceptable if cited. I cited a secondary source defined by the fact that it is not directly related to the origination of the term... making it suitable. Leitmotiv (talk) 21:57, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
You cannot have it both ways. Either you are saying it is related to the topic of our encyclopedia, in which case you need a third party source to make that claim, OR it is completely unrelated to the topic of our article in which case we have no use in mentioning it. You cannot say "Its not related so we should mention it." - -- The Red Pen of Doom 22:03, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
A third source in this case, is some source that is not related to the title of the article, or the origination of the term 420. Since we're discussing prior "usage" of the term, citing the actual usage would be very beneficial, especially since I made no claims as to what the preusage was "really" about. Only you make the connection to cannabis. I am not. I am making etymological connections of a related nature, but not of the "origin" nature for the cultural term. By the way... it can be a mixture... not black and white as you're suggesting. I propose that a section on this page titled "PRE-USAGE" is perfectly acceptable and is partially related to the 420 cannabis culture page by the definition that it shares the same term. The different uses may not mean the same thing, but it's definitely noteworthy enough to warrant a separate section on the same article. Leitmotiv (talk) 22:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I agree 100% with TRPoD. It's original research (from a primary source) to suggest/mention anything that is purely coincidental with term (Hitler's birthday, the Bob Dylan song, etc). OhNoitsJamie Talk 22:36, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
I dont know if you are intentionally misreading our policies or have just been overindulging on the holiday. A third-party source is someone other than the primary source (in this case Lovecraft) who has made the connection between Lovecrafts mention of the time 4:20 and the subject of this article: the use of the term 420 in drug culture. the third party cannot be YOU. It must be a previously published source. -- The Red Pen of Doom 14:07, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

/* April 20 observances */ addition of the Willie Nelson Status unveiling in Austin, TX

Just curious how the addition of the unveiling of the Willie Nelson status in Austin on 4/20 at 4:20 in observance of 420 was removed by TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) because "we are an encyclopedia not a travel brochure for pot fests." What makes that observance inappropriate while others are listed. I'm not trying to be confrontational on the issue, I'm curious. I suppose it should have merely been listed as one of the cities in which observances have taken place with a reference to the news source? Thanks pobrien (talk)

The edit summary referred to the general content of my edit rollback. The Willie Nelson statue content was included in that roll back and not re-added because link is to a facebook page, not a reliable source. Sorry I didnt specify in the edit summary itself. -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:08, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Pictures

The top picture of people gathering on 4/20 is UCSC but is labeled Porter College. Article is locked until 10/12/12 so I cannot make change. Could someone please correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.200.149.30 (talk) 15:58, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

sorry, UCSC is the BOTTOM picture, Porter is the top picture. 12.200.149.30 (talk) 16:01, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Usage outside North America

It says 420 is used "primarily in North America and the United Kingdom", but at university in the UK I've never heard the term. It is also not used in the article Cannabis in the United Kingdom. The 420 article only cites references for the US, I've deleted the mention until more info is provided. I suspect it is used by a few people in the UK but is not commonly known, so it's therefore accurate to say it's used "primarily in North America". Gymnophoria (talk) 13:54, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

there is coverage of the 4/20 day events in a couple of places in New Zealand. -- The Red Pen of Doom 14:16, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 October 2012

Please Change This:

Origins The earliest use of the term began among a group of teenagers in San Rafael, California in 1971.[2][3] Calling themselves the Waldos,[4] because "their chosen hang-out spot was a wall outside the school,"[5] the group first used the term in connection to a fall 1971 plan to search for an abandoned cannabis crop that they had learned about.[4][6] The Waldos designated the Louis Pasteur statue on the grounds of San Rafael High School as their meeting place, and 4:20 p.m. as their meeting time.[5] The Waldos referred to this plan with the phrase "4:20 Louis". Multiple failed attempts to find the crop eventually shortened their phrase to simply "4:20", which ultimately evolved into a codeword that the teens used to mean pot-smoking in general.[6] High Times editor Steven Hager wrote "Are You Stoner Smart or Stoner Stupid?" in which he called for 4:20 p.m. to be the socially accepted hour of the day to consume cannabis.[7] He attributes the early spread of the phrase to Grateful Dead followers, who were also linked to the city of San Rafael.[7] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/420_(cannabis_culture)

To This:

The Bebes are a group of athletes from San Rafael, CA, who went to San Rafael High School in 1970. They lived in the same neighborhood called Peacock Gap, which was a golf course, surrounded by houses. They were well known for their prank phone calls and recordings. Brad Bann aka The Bebe was the leader of the group and was joined by all of his friends, whom he ordained and named as well. There was Dave Dixon aka Wild Du, his brother Dan Dixon aka Puff, Dave Anderson aka Hello Andy, Tom Thorgersen aka Thorgy, Bone Boy, Blue, The Mead, Turkey & The Worm.

The Waldos are a group of non athletic guys from San Rafael, CA, who went to San Rafael High School in 1970. They were known for being uncoordinated and goofy, which is why The Bebe nicknamed them all Waldos. There was Steve Capper and David Reddix who have gone public with their names, Patrick, Larry, Jeff, John and Mark, who have not gone public as of yet. While these guys may have been responsible for promoting 420 across country, there is no question that they did not coin the term and have been dishonest with the world from day one. True credit goes to The Bebe and his brotherhood of Bebes.

Brad Bann aka the Bebe coined the term 420 and the Waldos carried the term across the U.S. on tour with the Grateful Dead. I took the torch in 1993 and promoted 420 to the world via my website/s, reaching over 20 million people a year, totaling over 420 million people worldwide. Now there are billions of us.

Sources:

Here is the full article. http://www.420magazine.com/2012/10/the-true-origin-of-420-setting-the-record-straight/

Here is the press release on PRWeb. http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/10/prweb10013410.htm

The420guy (talk) 07:34, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

not done at this time. PR web is as you stated, a Press Release regurgitation site. It is not a reliable source with a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. So there is one source for this story- which is one guy saying that he believes one group of people over a different group of people. Do you have other sources that support the Bebes claim? Otherwise per WP:UNDUE we go with the most widely accepted version. 11:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
The above text is simply a copy and paste from here.Moxy (talk) 18:06, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Plagiarism... but is the topic(s) needed

Have removed some plagiarism that was just added. That said the source (as see-able below) does cover a topic that is not covered here and may have some valuable information. What do others think should we cover the myths and/or related songs of this topic - as was being introduced with the copyrighted text?Moxy (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Mike Edison (12 May 2009). I Have Fun Everywhere I Go: Savage Tales of Pot, Porn, Punk Rock, Pro Wrestling, Talking Apes, Evil Bosses, Dirty Blues, American Heroes, and the Most Notorious Magazines in the World. Faber & Faber. p. 207. ISBN 978-0-86547-903-6.
Was just writing something I was going to post here - but as per the norm TheRedPenOfDoom has jumped in and saved the day again..... :-)Moxy (talk) 17:22, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
I am not sure of the value of extending a section of "things that have been falsely attributed to the 4:20 culture" - that seems like WP:BEANS for an article that already requires a disproportionate share of upkeep. But I do think that showing that there are alternate opinions about the authenticity of the Waldos story is required per WP:UNDUE. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:26, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

4:20 am

why is 420 limited to pm on this information site? 4:20 also happens in the early morning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.209.60.231 (talk) 17:56, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

You personally can celebrate WHENEVER you want! The content in the article however, needs to be supported by reliable sources that make the claim. If you have one, present it and the content can be added. -- The Red Pen of Doom 18:08, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
well, not legally. It's just the date itself, really. Have fun in prison, by the way! Joesolo13 (talk) 02:40, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Is this a good-enough source? http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/How_420_became_a_marijuana_holiday.html It's hard to find sources for something that's just common knowledge or mostly spread via social interaction and not the type of thing to be recorded officially. 71.227.7.35 (talk) 03:04, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

 Done its a good enough source to state that some sources also include 4:20am) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:37, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

420magazine.com

So we have some info trying to be inserted referanced to The True Origin of 420 – Setting The Record Straight. Lets see what others say about this. I have removed the Bio like additions that were more about the people then the term. So what to do...???? -- Moxy (talk) 19:45, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Slang terms

When I grew up there were a number of slang terms for Marijuana. Among the most common were "13", "M", rope and others I can't remember. The Hells Angles all wore a patch with the number 13 indicating their use and association with Pot. 13 is the numerical position to the letter M in the alphabet. In the olden days. rope, particularly marine dock lines were made from hemp which when burned had the aroma of marijuana. It would be nice to capture this somewhere. Maybe I'll start an article for Marijuana slang along the lines of the 420 article. Gotta get some sources though. -- Cdw ♥'s(talk) 21:00, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

@Cdw1952: I would suggest starting with beefing up the content at Drug_culture#Cannabis_subculture before hatching a new article. At some point the section could become sufficient to spin off into a stand alone article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:21, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Claims and counter claims

I'm Steve Hager and I played a major role in promoting 420 around the world. I was the first person to do 420 ceremonies outside of Marin County, in fact, starting in 1990. I have video of many of the early 420 ceremonies I did at the Cannabis Cup in the 1990s, an event I created. Mike Edison wrote a hatchet job about his brief tenure at High Times. I was editor for over 20 years. he did not accept anything I was doing at any time, especially my ideas about 420, although I was interviewed about 420 by ABC and put the link at the bottom of this page. Edison to this day insists we don't know who created 420. This is false. The Waldos of San Rafael have plenty of evidence to support their claim to having created the code, including postmarked letters from 1971. Coincidences around the number, like Hitler's birthday or Rainy Day Women have nothing to do with the code the Waldos created for pot. When Edison says I tried to suppress other stories, that is a lie. I suppressed nothing. I did research the origins and write about it. Yes, the truth does replace the lies, if you are lucky, that's what it is supposed to do. Meanwhile people like Edison just continue to support the fake stories, like it was a police code, which is sheer nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Temple Dragon (talkcontribs) 10:14, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

1) The claims of an anonymous account to be a living person must be verified through the WP:OTRS before we can accept the claims of identity as authentic. 2) The area of expertise of Hager is as the publisher of a pot magazine, not as a historian. Hagers statements here or in his magazine will only carry weight as his opinion not as declarations of fact.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:18, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
2)"420" is in fact "police radio code" in the Bay Area for "juvenile disturbance". While there is no proof that "420" in cannabis culture refers to police code, it is incorrect to state that "420" is "sheer nonsense" or not a criminal or police code for anything, as has been stated by many including the current page on Snopes.com.

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/San_Francisco%2C_City_%26_County_of_Public_Safety http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/420.asp Theaternearyou (talk) 19:45, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Criticism?

Why is there no criticism section in this article? Not everyone thinks this holiday is actually much of a holiday or even a good holiday or if it even helps the 'legalize marijauna' crowd. That and they chose a rather terrible day, Hitler's Birthday, to host it. Thats not what its about sure, but its not exactly much of a booster to yor efforts if you use the day of the birth of the worst dictator in history as a day to celebrate getting high. And in case you're wondering, yes I do think 4/20 is a stupid holiday and there should be some kind of criticism section in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.55.96.7 (talkcontribs) 14:07, October 2, 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps because no criticism exists in reliable sources? –xeno (talk) 14:10, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

That may be so, or perhaps no one bothers to look because they don't want to look like a NARC for putting up a criticism section. Christmas, Halloween, Easter, they all have something of a criticism page, even if its not about the Holiday itself but the reasons we celebrate it and the customs and traditions involved in it. Commercialization for Christmas, how religious groups view Halloween, if anything there should be some article by Anti-Drug or Anti-Marijuana advocates who denounce 4/20, perhaps even Jews who find the fact that people could have fun on Hitler's Birthday offensive.

Not a good idea, in my opinion (and it has nothing to do with the fact that I really love weed). Unlike Christmas or Halloween, or any other holiday for that matter, 420 isn't an official holiday, but rather an unofficial celebration (like Bicycle Day is for acid), there isn't a specific way of celebrating it (unlike Halloween with the costumes and Xmas with the tree and shit), it's not an official rule that celebrations most include getting stoned and protesting, so there's nothing to criticise, really. I think you're just trying to shove a bit anti-weed propaganda into the article. "They chose a rather terrible day, Hitler's Birthday" - you make it sound as if it was chosen because of that reason, knowingly... they didn't choose "Hitler's birthday", they chose a date that is (coincidently) also Hitler's birthday.
Plus, I'm Jewish and you can rest assured that I'm not offended by this coincidence, and if someone is offended, he's a fucktard. —Saltywood (talk) 13:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Who would find the fact that people could have fun on Hitler's birthday offensive? Are we supposed to mope all day? Anyway, it seems that it was a number that was sulected and the celebration on the date came because it corresponded to the number. Stuart 68.161.121.165 (talk) 02:38, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

First of all, it originated around the time of 4:20, not a date of 4/20. Secondly, the two events are coincidental, there is no relationship between the annual celebration of 420 and Hitler's birthday. Thirdly, if properly citied criticism exists, it belongs in the article.--Pchov (talk) 04:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
but is it really coincidential? 95.208.187.120 (talk) 22:06, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
No, it is all a giant conspiracy of pothead neo-nazis because getting stoned is a great way to pay tribute to Hitler. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:04, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

420 in Indian subcontinent

420 is common term in Indian subcontinent used for someone who is a thief/trickster/clever in mischievous way. The origin of the word goes long before it's use in the US for cannabis. The word originates by Penal Code of 1860 instituted by the colonial government of British India. Section 420 covers offences relating to cheating and dishonestly. Maybe there should be reference in this article about it's origin in Indian subcontinent.

I am pretty sure someone from Indian subcontinent (pakistan, india, bangladesh), probably students, tricked some American pot smokers into using the word for themselves back in 1960s or 1970s. What else could explain that weird coincidence? In that sense they were "420" (mischievous trickster) who tricked people into using a (bad) Indian slang for themselves — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.26.50.116 (talk) 22:10, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2014

PEOPLE'S PARK

In 1965, New Yorker, Stew Albert, moved to California following the beginning of the Free Speech Movement taking place during the 1964–1965 academic year on the campus of the University of California, Berkeley. The movement stemmed from the university administration's ban of on-campus political activities. There he met Chicagoan, Stewart Albert, a member of the soon to be notorious Chicago 8, and Jerry Rubin, from Ohio. Together they traveled back and forth to New York, NY, where together with Paul Krassner and several others, founded the Youth International Party in December 1967, nicknamed the Yippies.

The Yippie Party was anti-war, pro marijuana, pro free speech, pro black power, and loosely organized. Yippie became the nickname for the group and title given to radicalized hippies. As Paul Krassner wrote, "We needed a name to signify the radicalization of hippies, and I came up with Yippie as a label for a phenomenon that already existed, an organic coalition of psychedelic hippies and political activists. In the process of cross-fertilization at antiwar demonstrations, we had come to share an awareness that there was a linear connection between putting kids in prison for smoking pot in this country and burning them to death with napalm on the other side of the planet." The Yippie flag was frequently seen at anti-war demonstrations. The flag had a black background with a five-pointed red star in the center, and a green cannabis leaf superimposed over it. Yippies organized marijuana "smoke-ins" across North America through the 1970s and into the 1980s. The first YIP smoke-in was attended by 25,000 in Washington, D.C. on July 4, 1970.

On 18 April 1969, Stew Albert, back at Berkeley, wrote an article in the Berkley Barb, calling for the community to organize and beautify a UC Berkley campus lot the University had been neglecting after they had demoed several campus buildings on the site over a year earlier.

On 20 April 1969 (4/20) hundreds of students and residents came forward to beautify the lot into a park, and create a speaking platform (the People's Stage) for free speech. Although the park received great support from the community and professors, the Governor of California, Ronald Reagan, was cracking down on communist/socialist movements on California's college campuses. His targeting of the park, led to the May 15, 1969, "Bloody Thursday" riot. That morning California law enforcement took control of the park, and by the late afternoon thousands of protesters, incited by Student Counsel President and leader in the local Students for a Democratic Society (a Socialist movement which would later evolve into Weather Underground), arrived to take back the park. Over the next 5 days, local police, Alameda County Sheriff Deputies, Highway Patrol and National Guard Soldiers squared off against thousands or rioters and protesters leading to hundreds injured, and the death of James Rector and a police officer.

In 1967 Jerry Rubin had run for Mayor of Berkley. In 1970 Stew Albert ran for Sherriff of Alameda County, mostly out of his furor of how he and his friends had been treated during the riots. Both lost, but gained huge notoriety for their cause, even getting featured on Saturday Night Live.

The University kept the lot guarded and fenced for the next three years, voting in June 1970 to turn the lot into a sports field and parking lot. In May of 1971, as construction activity began at the site, more riots were started leading to more violence and multiple arrests. In May 1972, after President Richard Nixon announced his intention to mine North Vietnam's main port, an outraged crowd tore down the perimeter chain-link wire fence surrounding the People's Park site and began to destroy the construction site. Finally In September 1972, the Berkeley City Council voted to lease the park site from the university, and rebuilt the park. For the Yippies this signified a major victory. For High School students just 25 miles away in San Rafael, CA, the riots and news stories concerning the park were featured almost daily in the news. The Peoples Park, and the 4/20 anniversary became a rallying cry for the New Left movement, much like "remember the Alamo."

Usaparacop82 (talk) 04:28, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: No reliable source provided for such a massive edit Cannolis (talk) 13:55, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

"420" is older than 1971!

I don't know the origin, but as a student at the University of Michigan (1969-1973) I can tell you that the 'Hash Bash' was celebrated on the 'Diag' in the center of campus every April 20th. The campus police kindly kept a low profile (it was only a misdemeanor ticket in the early 70's). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.121.69.102 (talk) 01:45, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The story in the article which states that the term "420" originated in 1971 cannot possibly be true. Why? Because, in 1966, Bob Dylan released a song called "Rainy Day Women #12 & 35," featuring the well-known refrain, "Everybody must get stoned." The numbers in the title, 12 and 35, when multiplied together, yield a product of 420 -- and Bob Dylan would NOT have done this by mistake. Therefore, the "420" term is at least as old as 1966, and quite possibly a LOT older. If anyone can find out where it really came from (and when), please revise this article accordingly. RobertAustin (talk) 19:36, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Riiiiiiight. Got a source? -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:26, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
LOL! Not everything that Bob ever said is fraught with multiple layers of significance. PurpleChez (talk) 21:32, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Um, I don't believe Bob Dylan was ever highly involved in cannabis culture and that song itself was an ironic satire of it. If the term was wide spread enough at that point to be known by someone outside the culture then there surly would be some other source. There are all kinds of coincidences in popular music. For example, have you ever tried playing Dark Side of the Moon in time with The Wizard of Oz? Stuart 68.161.121.165 (talk) 02:38, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Funny that you should suggested that Dylan wasn't involved in cannabis culture. Bob Dylan told High Times magazine's Larry Jaffe that he didn't know "who first turn him onto pot", but "a lot of pot was smoked". He also talked in an interview in Playboy in 1963 about how Rainy Day Women DID talk about marijuana, and its being banned from radio airwaves. There was even talk of Dylan turning The Beatles onto pot. This to me is just as much of a connection of "420" to pot as there ever will be. --MahJesus —Preceding undated comment added 18:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC).


It is just the same number. There needs to be a documented connection. Seriously the number 420 comes up all over, that does not mean it is connected with this cultural phenomenon. Looking at things and finding connections is original research which is normally all fine and well, but Wikipedia does not accept original research. ⚗ Dr. StrangeBong ⚗ (talk) 03:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Some people thinks it's younger than 1971. I hear people saying it's from Smokin'_(Boston_song). This is just in casual talk, and that the group of kids claiming in 1971 are just full of it. Can't find any die hard sources. Xmzx (talk) 19:13, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
To expect concrete information regarding something that has been illegal and underground is unreasonable and useless. The entire discourse revolving around marijuana has been laden with subtext and specific language and terminology not mentioned in concrete sources out of fear of governmental retribution. I seriously suggest we remove that section from the introduction and into the body of the article where any issues can be documented and addressed. OhYeah098765 (talk) 19:39, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I am also of the opinion that 'Rainy Day Woman' was the original source of 420. It should at the very least be mentioned in the main article. Another one to be looked into: reportedly the inventor of LSD-25 took the first documented trip in human history at 4:20pm sometime during the 1950s. This comes from an older Rolling Stone article with the exact date etc; I will get the source if anyone considers this a valid theory as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.43.247 (talk) 15:46, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Whether true or not, the validity of this so-called origin story would not be accepted for virtually any other topic, since there is so little evidence that would prove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.173.78 (talk) 00:16, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Here's an interesting detail, Finnish artist Vesa-Matti Loiri released his debut solo album "4+20" (fi:4+20) in 1971. In my opinion there's no way this term could have been known in the most remote country of Europe the same year it was invented. It must be much older. --Joe Kaniini (talk) 13:54, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it's unlikely Dylan's song was the source of 420, but it could be a cryptic reference to 420 as a pre-existing code. I think we need (a) a reliable source for Dylan etc, (b) an unambiguous reference to 420 before 1971. I don't find the Waldo story very believable.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:24, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The story that I heard from a linguistics professor who had studied it once was that it came from:

Barber, barber, shave a pig.
How many hairs will make a wig?
Four and twenty; that’s enough.
Give the barber a pinch of snuff.

in the Mother Goose poem "Barber". Four and twenty having been a number used often as "a bunch" (you also see it in "four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie"), but this association with giving payment through drugs was new to the time around this poem. Then, I guess there was some general usage changes (I don't remember where it was said to have been popping up). And it now has it's current meaning from that tradition. I don't have the proper references to make that kind of update, but if someone else has seen that theory with reference, it would be nice to have this confirmed. Possibly, the story currently on the article is not incorrect to modern popularization as well.--Ex0du5 5utu7e (talk) 21:41, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Trivia - John Wayne

It might be noted that 420 was the flight number of John Wayne's airplane in the hit movie "The High and the Mighty".

It might also be stated that Everest is the highest mountain in the world, but that wouldnt have any more relevance to the subject of the article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:33, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Observance?

I doubt that the term "observance" is used correctly in this article. Maikel (talk) 10:39, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Hitler's Birthday

The "Führergeburtstag" is on the same date. The pot-smoking-day is not known outside of the U.S. and Canada. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:46:1A08:5265:C5F2:B71F:378A:72E (talk) 09:28, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Neither is 'fall' (for the internationally correct 'autumn'). But why bother when the piece is so thoroughly poorly written? Tag 'copyedit' on the poor thing.

4/20 was immediately known in the U.S. as Hitler's birthday after the Columbine school shootings and debated as some sort of possible motivation for the killers and their following suicides. "On April 20, 1999, two teens went on a shooting spree at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado, killing 13 people and wounding more than 20 others before turning their guns on themselves and committing suicide. The crime was the worst high school shooting in U.S. history and prompted a national debate on gun control and school safety, as well as a major investigation to determine what motivated the gunmen, Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17." Source- http://www.history.com/topics/columbine-high-school-shootings Vinylisbest (talk) 12:11, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

This is not a general article about April 20th, as should be clear from the title of the article. OhNoitsJamie Talk 14:28, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
The pot-smoking-day is not known outside of the U.S. and Canada.
That's false. --Fixuture (talk) 20:51, 24 May 2016 (UTC)