Talk:FODMAP

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What the hell is FGID?[edit]

Don't use an acronym or abbreviation without telling us what it stands for. Write for a lay audience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.41.7.58 (talk) 19:56, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

See the second paragraph of the lede. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:03, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree with 71.41.7.58. Since the ledes and the bodies of the articles are meant to stand alone from one another, I defined the acronym in the body. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 01:32, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Possible error in sentence?[edit]

I'm pretty sure "gluten grains are wheat, barley and rye free" should read either "gluten free grains are wheat, barley and rye free" or "gluten grains are wheat, barley and rye" (free omitted). I'm not sure which one is appropriate, else I'd go ahead and change it. Iridium191 (talk) 01:05, 18 August 2014 (UT

Mix of grains and food products[edit]

The following sentence is a confusing mix of grains, a broadleaf seed, and one root, and products made from them. "Grains: wheat-free grains/wheat-free flours (gluten-free grains are free of wheat, barley and rye): bagels, breads, hot/cold cereals (corn flakes, cream of rice, grits, oats, etc.), crackers, noodles, pastas, quinoa, pancakes, pretzels, rice, tapioca, tortillas, waffles" I suggest the following (I am an Agronomist, not a medical/FODMAP expert) :

"Grains: Corn/maize, rice, oats (non gluten-free oats may have an occasional wheat kernel in the lot)

Seeds: Quinoa

Root crops: Manioc/cassava/yuca (tapioca)" Rick DeLoughery (talk) 16:26, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Article problems.[edit]

ONE: I am confused. Is this meant to be an article on the short-chain FODMAP carbohydrates or the FODMAP diet? It seems to be a mash-up of both topics.

a. If it's about the carbohydrate classification, then the diet stuff needs to be expunged. More information should be inserted on the chemistry and digestion of such carbs in humans as well as in other creatures who eat them. It's light on the science of the carbs (but don't go overboard - we want laypersons to understand what they are reading).

b. If it's about the diet, then "diet" should be added to the title and there should be information about the purpose of it - as a short-term trial with an initial elimination phase of about 6-8 weeks. This is followed by a challenge phase when foods are reintroduced in order for an irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) sufferer to discover what food intolerances are specifically causing their symptoms. It was never meant to be a long-term diet. Also, there are some variations in the FODMAP-ianism of some of the foods listed. Chocolate, for example. Monash University finds that dark chocolate at 30 grams is low-FODMAP while milk and white chocolate are moderate FODMAP levels. Carob powder is high. http://www.med.monash.edu.au/cecs/gastro/fodmap/diet-updates/chocolate.html. Another example is the cabbage group. Smooth-leaved, common cabbage is allowed in the diet up to a cup-full per sitting while some other cabbages are restricted to 1/4 cup due to the amount of fructans they contain. There may be other foods where their assessment differs from your sources. With various research institutions studying IBS and FODMAPs, there are bound to be different findings between them. If the result of one researcher is listed while others vary, then it should be mentioned that FODMAP assessment varies between researchers.

- This article makes the same mistake that a lot of people do. It is not gluten that causes IBS problems: gluten is protein. People with celiac disease cannot tolerate gluten, even to the point of death if left uncontrolled. By itself, people with IBS have no problem with gluten. It is the FODMAPs in wheat, rye, and barley that cause the problems, specifically the fructans, I believe. It is coincidental that foods high in gluten are also high in fructans. http://www.med.monash.edu/cecs/gastro/fodmap/faq.html - item #4 http://www.med.monash.edu/cecs/gastro/education/2013-public-lecture.html

- NOTE: On the Monash University link you provide, they offer a gratis downloadable FODMAP diet smart phone application: http://med.monash.edu.au/cecs/gastro/fodmap/

TWO: Odd sentence - "These include short chain (oligo-) saccharide polymers of fructose (fructans) and galactose (galactans), disaccharides (lactose), monosaccharides (fructose). . ." Can the authors please explain what appears to be inconsistencies/redundancies?

THREE: References 2 & 3 are the exact same source, please combine:

- 2-Gibson, PR; Peter R Gibson and Susan J Shepherd (2010). "Evidence-based dietary management of functional gastrointestinal symptoms: The FODMAP approach". Journal of Gastroenterology and Hepatology 25 (2): 252–258. doi:10.1111/j.1440-1746.2009.06149.x. PMID 20136989

- 3-Gibson PR, Shepherd SJ (2010). "Evidence-based dietary management of functional gastrointestinal symptoms: The FODMAP approach". Journal of Gastroenterology and Hepatology 25 (10): 252–258. doi:10.1111/j.1440-1746.2009.06149.x.PMID 20136989

FOUR: Reference 6. links to a medical practice that offers information, but also enthusiastically sells books. The "Shopping Cart" is there in the right-hand column of the homepage. This article from US News & World Report seems like a reliable replacement: http://health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/2012/08/28/ibs-could-be-the-fodmaps , as does this page from the University of North Carolina's Center for Functional GI & Motility Disorders: http://www.med.unc.edu/ibs/news/fats-fodmaps

Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 06:30, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

If the article is currently covering what should be two articles, it ought to be split as two articles then, but material shouldn't just be deleted to make it one or the other only. There is only one mention of gluten in the article and it is not an implication of it as a cause of IBS but a note in the suggested foods section that "gluten-free grains are free of wheat, barley and rye", which is probably better-worded as as "products" rather than "grains" but true. You may regard this as superfluous or straying into WP:NOTHOWTO or something, or if you feel your misinterpretation of what is said could be reworded, have a go.
I believe I understand the sentence you find odd, so a clarification as to what you find inconsistent or redundant would be useful. I am not particularly suggesting this as an alternative wording but I understand it as: "These include fructans and galactans (which are short chain (oligo-) saccharide polymers of fructose and galactose respectively), lactose (a disaccharide), fructose (a monosaccharide), and sorbitol, mannitol, xylitol and maltitol (sugar alcohols (a class of polyol))."
The site with the shopping cart is that of the dietetic practice of the same Dr. Shepherd who is co-author of the paper in ref 2, but supplement or replace it with other refs if you feel that is required. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:40, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Half and half[edit]

What is meant by "half and half"? 81.170.15.209 (talk) 09:47, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Presumably the North American definition of the term, though it would be nice if the recommendation was for the Scottish one. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:39, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Mandatory v discretionary restriction of different FODMAPS[edit]

The notes in sub-headings as to which FODMAPS are mandatory and which discretionary is far from a mere "diet suggestion" but a significant elaboration of matters covered in the "absorption" section above. No-one need restrict fructose or lactose if a hospital test has not indicated intolerance. To do so is not beneficial and arguably detrimental because of the added difficulties of unnecessary further dietary restriction. Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:36, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

The article should be informing on the sources of FODMAPs rather than an instruction manual how to follow a low-FODMAP diet. I would remove the "mandatory" and "discretionary" from headings. And I question whether a "hospital test" is needed. Jrfw51 (talk) 08:12, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your edits, which I support and regard as a clearer explanation but as they cover the same matter, not sure why you would regard their predecessor as an instruction manual. A hospital test is not "needed" but for fructose and lactose can be had, that's all; not the case for other FODMAPs, or at least not widely available, as far as I'm aware. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:59, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
I didn't see this conversation before my last edit – apologies – but please don't revert it until we reach a consensus (to avoid edit warring). I agree with Jrfw51. The article is primarily about FODMAPs not a low-FODMAP diet, and the section in question is about sources of FODMAPs not how to avoid them. The text in parenthesis were just diet suggestions and did not fit with the content. Furthermore, they were inaccurate. Sensitivity to particular FODMAPs varies from person to person, with some people only being sensitive to one particular group, so no one group can be labelled as "mandatory" to avoid. McLerristarr | Mclay1 09:18, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

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Further reading suggestion[edit]

Simple introduction to the topic from diet angle from New Scientist https://www.newscientist.com/article/2152877-gluten-sensitive-it-may-actually-be-a-carb-making-you-ill/ I'd add this myself but I'm not using a device I can edit on properly. Please go ahead and add it if you think it suitable. 87.114.67.61 (talk) 13:10, 6 March 2019 (UTC)Istobe87.114.67.61 (talk) 13:10, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Still unclear[edit]

What does "Depending on the choice of other foods consumed in the daily diet, cereals may be only relatively minor sources of FODMAPs" mean? If it means "if you don't eat much of x (in comparison to other things), it will be a minor source of something contained therein" surely that could equally be applied to any of the FODMAP-containing foods and is thus superfluous at best? Cereals' contribution is surely only dependent on the absolute amount of FODMAP-containing cereals one eats and the contribution of those in other foods is a separate matter. Mutt Lunker (talk) 12:33, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

If you eat a lot of other FODMAP/fructan-containing foods, then the proportion overall that comes from cereals is small, and stopping eating these cereals makes little difference to the overall amount consumed (although it will make a big difference to the amount of gluten). If there is a relatively small amount from other dietary sources, then stopping cereals will reduce them significantly too. This is relevant in the discussions regarding whether FODMAP-sensitivity is a factor in NCGS. If you can say this better than I have, please modify it to make it clearer! Jrfw51 (talk) 14:19, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Adjusting to what the sources say, this is what we have (in fact, both reviews say the same thing, expressed in different ways):
GibsonShepherd2010: "Wheat is a major source of fructans in the diet" Table 1 "Food sources of FODMAPs (where FODMAPs are problematic based on standard serving size) and suitable alternatives Oligosaccharides (fructans and/or galactans) Cereals: wheat & rye when eaten in large amounts (e.g. bread, pasta, couscous, crackers, biscuits)
FasanoSapone2015: "Cereals such as wheat and rye, when consumed in normal quantities, are only minor sources of FODMAPs in the daily diet" "Table 1.Sources of FODMAPs. Oligosaccharides (fructans and/or galactans). Cereals: wheat and rye when eaten in large amounts (eg, bread, pasta, couscous, crackers, biscuits)" --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 15:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC)