Talk:Hijab

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Other names/forms of Hijab[edit]

In East Africa (Kenya and Tanzania) the term was bui-bui, usually black. In the Mzab valley of Algeria in witnessed one of the most extreme forms of Hijab (but I never been to Saudi Arabia or Iran), women went out completely veiled, with one eye covered, and the other eye peeking out through a mesh, darting from side to side. I understand that the Mzabite Berbers were Kharijites, part of Ibadi Shia Islam, but when I asked, locals insisted "we are all brothers under Islam, only some have different traditions". Similarly when I asked about the Mzabite Berbers I was told that this was just a colonial policy of divide and rule ("diviser pour regler").

09:03, 26 July 2017 (UTC)~

Hijab in Saudi Arabia[edit]

since there is no low forcing women to cover their hair (wear hijab) in Saudi Arabia I am gonna remove " wearing hijab in public has been required by law in Iran, Saudi Arabia " from the intro. Also I am from Saudi Arabia and i have seen women without head scarf. and here "The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia requires Muslim women to cover their hair " its doesnt say in the source women have to wear hijab. --Mojackjutaily (talk) 00:55, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

That's an interesting point. Is there a source which clarifies this? Edaham (talk) 10:12, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
@Mojackjutaily:The current source says this:
Saudi Arabia is one of the only Muslim-majority countries that legally imposes a dress code (Iran is another). Women, foreign and local, must wear an abaya (a few get away with long coats) in public places. Muslim—often equated with Saudi—women are said to have to wear a headscarf; foreigners needn’t. The face need not be covered
and this
COMMENTATORS, mainly non-Saudis, made a hullabaloo when Michelle Obama, America’s first lady, turned up in Saudi Arabia on January 27th in colourful, loose-fitting clothing and no headscarf. The oil-rich kingdom is known for its women being swathed in long, black cloaks known as abayas, usually paired with the hijab (headscarf) or niqab (which leaves a slit for the eyes), or a burqa (which covers the body from head to toe, with a mesh for the eyes)
Perhaps rather than remove the text, we can clarify what regulations Saudi does have and whether or not they are strictly enforced or just public guidelines. This article is about the hijab, but I see no reason not to clarify the present public codes in countries where these are worn, despite the fact the law may not specifically state that the garment be a hijab. What do you think? Thank you for bringing this discussion to the talk page after having been reverted. Edaham (talk) 10:18, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
well, the problem in KSA is that there is no clear law or roles even the constitution is a mess. any way @Edaham: i agree with you, we should explain that wearing Abaya is a public guidelines,
usually non Muslim wear it But recently the arrival of Melania and Ivanka Trump without headscarves and Abaya change the custom. Even before, a lot of women in Saudia do not wear Hijab even if she is a Muslim like girls from Syria and Lebanon, and the public are OK with it . Wearing Abaya in the other hand is kind of law but not headscarf or hijab, I am sorry about my English i hope you can understand me. --Mojackjutaily (talk) 11:08, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
your English is perfectly understandable. Thanks for the clarification. I think the source here explains the situation quite well. If you have no objection I will use this source and write a version to see if it accurately reflects the current situation. If you can find a text containing an actual law or statute from a local text, we could source that too for verification. Would you be able to find something like that? Edaham (talk) 11:26, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
@Edaham: i can find something in Arabic would you accept it --Mojackjutaily (talk) 11:48, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
i Found something here in English i hope it is useful --Mojackjutaily (talk) 12:04, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
That's useful yes - also useful would be travel advice for those applying for a visa from any consulate pages as this would verify the different requirements if any for foreigners. Let me do a rewrite and continue the discussion a bit later. In transit at the moment. Edaham (talk) 12:34, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure this last source (a blog) qualifies as a reliable source. The Economist is a RS (an academic one would be better), but it's phrasing ("are said to have to") is notably wishy-washy. I would guess the reason is that Saudi law isn't codified (as Mojackjutaily points out), so the author just doesn't know for sure. There seems to be a difference between Saudi Arabia, where it's legally required only for Muslims (per uncodified fiqh), and Iran, where it's required for all women (per what seems to be the standard reading of article 102 of the penal code). If you can provide Arabic sources that meet WP:RS criteria, Mojackjutaily, I can help with translation. If we are comfortable making that generalization, we could simply change the lead to read "Saudi Arabia (for Muslims)" Eperoton (talk) 23:13, 4 August 2017 (UTC):
ok - holding off editing while sources are reviewed. Edaham (talk) 00:29, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
foreign travel advice could be included, as could requirements for dress code in government buildings.
Edaham (talk) 01:28, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
The sources would be reliable enough, but they don't seem to tell us quite what we need. The travel advice doesn't specify whether the dress code is part of laws or customs (though it does seem to imply that hijab is strictly enforced for everyone). The Saudi bylaw seems to concern specifically the Consultative Assembly of Saudi Arabia, which is not something that we would mention in the lead. Eperoton (talk) 01:42, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
I agree. This discussion does not concern something which belongs in the lede, but a section on enforcement by region. Edaham (talk) 01:58, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

@Edaham: @Eperoton: i could not find source telling us wearing hijab is laws or its not, but here is saying (Wearing a veil is not required for non-Saudi, non-Muslim women,), Here (The headscarf is however optional for foreign women), and this site talked about Saudi female minister ( appeared in the media, along with other Saudi women, without covering her face and hair on several occasions) and in alarabiya The article specifically said (It is common for Western women in Saudi Arabia to wear abaya and do not cover their hair.) --Mojackjutaily (talk) 04:25, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Mojackjutaily. I think we now have multiple RSs (Economist, al-Watan via Al-Arabiya) stating that a headscarf is required only for Muslim women. It's questionable whether expat guide websites qualify as RSs, but I think in this context they can be used for corroboration. The UK travel advice site states that visitors "should" wear a headscarf, and not explicitly that it's required. The text in the body of the article seems to be in line with this, so I think we just need to add a parenthetical in the lead. Eperoton (talk) 13:18, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

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