Talk:International Debutante Ball: Difference between revisions

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-==NPOV dispute==
-I have tagged this article for [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]] as {{user|1wikideb1}} has repeatedly reverted my efforts to improve the article.  I have edited the article to remove puffery (terms like "girls from families of distinction", "ladies of distinction", etc) as well as to address serious formatting issues in the article (using separate level 2 headings where a simple bulleted list would suffice).  1WikiDeb1 has reverted my efforts to leave the article in its prior non-neutral and badly formatted state.  1WikiDeb1's actions indicate an attitude of [[WP:OWN|article ownership]]. Seeking to avoid running afoul of [[WP:3RR]], I am bringing the dispute here.  I invite 1WikiDeb1 and any other editor to weigh in on the matter. <font color="green">[[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]]</font><font color="green" size="5px"></font><sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 19:26, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
-: In the absence of any response, I have restored my cleaned up version.  Please discuss here before reverting. <font color="green">[[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]]</font><font color="green" size="5px"></font><sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 15:21, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
-:: Once again, {{user|1wikideb1}} has reverted my edits with no discussion, other than a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AWikiDan61&diff=531785426&oldid=531670080 request] that I discuss the changes before reverting again.  I have attempted to discuss the changes, and have invited 1wikideb1 to enter the discussion on several occasions, to no avail.  I once again invite this user to enter the discussion, and will await a response here. This user's response should address the NPOV issue that I have already raised, and why my edits should have been reverted multiple times in favor of theirs. <font color="green">[[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]]</font><font color="green" size="5px"></font><sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 14:56, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
-as a european i'm pretty amused by the weight* americans seem to put on this whole debutante-thing. obviously a young women will very rarely be 'distinguised' in her own right: she's either rich or her parents are famous. neither one makes their children special in most people's opinion: suchs kids tend to be respectively 'rich and spoiled' or 'pompous and ridiculous'. (*= as in 'ANY weight at all').
-since the whole debutante-ball has long lost it's social meaning as a place to meet a potential mate i'm under the strong impression this whole ball is little more than a tourist-trap for rich people.
-[[User:Selena1981|Selena1981]] ([[User talk:Selena1981|talk]]) 02:10, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
-== Please do not undo my edits until we have discussed your opinion ==
-Please discuss your opinion about the article first. You have taken out so much information which was irrelevant to do.--[[User:1wikideb1|1wikideb1]] ([[User talk:1wikideb1|talk]]) 18:04, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
-: For the most part, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=International_Debutante_Ball&diff=531102749&oldid=531093670 my changes] were intended to organize the lead sections into a "History" and "Format" section, to reduce the length of the lead, which is too long.  For the rest of the article, I have attempted to format the list of past debs as just that -- a list, rather than as a series of headings with no content.  I did not remove any cited facts, but I did remove one paragraph with several uncited quotes and with one cite quote where the citation did not verify the quote.  These changes are all legitimate.
-: Other changes were made by others before I came along, but they are arguably valid changes as they tone down the puffery that was present in the article.  For example:
-:: ''The International Debutante Ball, founded in 1954, is considered the most prestigious and the most exclusive debutante ball in the world. Young women of distinction from all over the United States and around the globe are brought together''
-: ''Who'' considers this the most prestigious debutant ball?  Who says these are "women of distinction" (rather than simply "women of money")?  Such statements are puffery and have no place in Wikipedia. <font color="green">[[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]]</font><font color="green" size="5px"></font><sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 18:29, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
-All information in the article originates from reputable media outlets. As a matter of fact, an article was published in the New York Social Diary yesterday with the header 'Women of Distinction' referring to the debutantes of The International Debutante Ball. If you read the other sources, not all girls have to be 'rich' to be a debutante. They have to be accomplished themselves and not necessarily because of their parents. I found your changes containing very subjective claims and opinions and what you added in the article after deleting most of the information was not supported by any legitimate sources. In the current article, every paragraph of information is supported by a legitimate source. None of your information was supported by any sources. I find it very unnecessary to waste time and quarrel about this article as there are so many sources supporting it. There are so many other articles on Wikipedia with hardly any sources supporting them that need to be more thoroughly checked than this one.--[[User:1wikideb1|1wikideb1]] ([[User talk:1wikideb1|talk]]) 10:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
-: I didn't add any information.  I removed one paragraph, I toned down the language of some of the rest, and I reformatted the rest of the information to properly meet the [[WP:MOS|manual of style]].  I do not see what the problem is. <font color="green">[[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]]</font><font color="green" size="5px"></font><sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 13:03, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
-:: OK -- let me explain here what changes I would make, and perhaps we can agree on them:
-::: Format
-:::: The article formatting is all wrong, according to the [[WP:MOS|manual of style]].  Past debutantes are listed using heading levels, rather than in a simple list as is more appropriate.  And the [[WP:LEDE|lead]] is too long, and needs to be broken up.  I suggest the following outline:
-::::# Format -- how the ball works, the associated events, the military and civilian escorts, the flags, the songs, etc.
-::::# Qualifications -- who may be presented, and how they must apply (including the requirement to pay for one's table)
-::::# History -- founding, past significant debs (in a simple list), etc.
-::::# Impact -- the social impact of the event -- descriptions of the "status" of those involved, and the philanthropic aspect (donations to the Soldiers' and Sailors' Foundation, etc).
-::: [[WP:V|Verifiability]]:
-:::: Within this framework, I would retain as much of the information as can be properly verified from the given citations, but will remove quotes that are not verified by their citations, including the following:
-::::* 'the most elitist ball'.  (The cited article ''does'' call the IDB elitist, but it does not call it the most elitist, and it uses the term ''elitist'' quite pejoratively.)
-::::* Description of Beatrice Dinsmore Joyce as 'The Grand Dame of Debutante Society'.  Neither cited reference uses this phrase, although both sources ''do'' confirm her as the founder of the event.
-::::* ''The International Debutante Ball gains one of the most media attention in the world from reputable media outlets, ranging from newspapers to society publications and tv stations, such as The New York Times and the Wall Street Journal.''  While the IDB does appear to attract a fair amount of media attention, there is no source to indicate that its media attention is any higher than any other debutante event.
-::::* ''Debutantes of The International Debutante Ball have been dubbed as 'Blue Blooded Socialites' by the media''' -- which media.  A quote like this needs a specific source.  Without one, the quote should be removed.  (Keep in mind that most people look upon such a term as a negative description, not praise.)
-::::* ''The luckiest girls in the world'' (attributed to ''[[The New York Observer]]'' but without a specific citation).  Again -- such an uncited quote should not be retained.
-::: Puffery
-:::: Calling the debutantes "girls of distinction" at every possible occasion is just [[WP:Peacock terms|puffery]].  They are girls: whether they are "of distinction" is a matter of opinion, and is not the proper description to be used in a [[WP:NPOV|neutral]] encyclopedia article.
-::: Excessive "See also" section
-:::: There are entirely too many other links in the "See also" section.  All of the useful Wikilinks can be included within the text of the article, and no "See also" is really needed.
-:: None of these changes should be controversial, as they all seek to improve the article to bring it more in line with Wikipedia policies and guidelines.  If anyone (and yes, 1wikideb1, I'm asking you now!) has any objections to any of these changes, please respond here with specifics about why these changes are wrong or do not improve the article. <font color="green">[[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]]</font><font color="green" size="5px"></font><sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 20:37, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
-I partially agree with your suggested format, but what I do not understand is that you have just changed the whole article yet again according to 'your opinion' before we have discussed and agreed to any changes. You are the one who suggested that everything must be agreed before any changes should be made, yet you just changed the whole article drastically before anything has been discussed further on this page. You are acting now like you own this whole article. I therefore will undo all your changes. This article should not be changed until an agreement has been settled.--[[User:1wikideb1|1wikideb1]] ([[User talk:1wikideb1|talk]]) 14:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
-: Very well.  Let's discuss then.  My changes were not so drastic to the content of the article, only to its organization.  But if you insist, we can discuss.  (Forgive me for moving forward without discussion, but I have had trouble engaging 1wikideb1 in discussions in the past.)
-: So, the changes I made (that 1wikideb1 has just [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=International_Debutante_Ball&diff=532183563&oldid=532021458 reverted]) were all in line with the suggestions I made above, regarding format and organization.  I invite Deb to comment on my suggestions, and if any of them are objectionable, tell me why.  If they are not objectionable, let me make them without reverting. <font color="green">[[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]]</font><font color="green" size="5px"></font><sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 14:39, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
-:: Seeing that 1wikideb1 has chosen not to engage in this discussion (despite a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:1wikideb1&diff=prev&oldid=532364189 specific request] to do so), I'll move forward with my edits. <font color="green">[[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]]</font><font color="green" size="5px"></font><sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 13:45, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
-I still only partially agree with what you have changed. Where do you get your information from because the article contains wrong information, e.g. the ball takes place 'annually'. The ball takes place every 2 years, NOT every year. The format is fine, but it would have been appreciated if you had left the right facts in the article.--[[User:1wikideb1|1wikideb1]] ([[User talk:1wikideb1|talk]]) 13:27, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
-: Forgive me for getting the frequency of the ball wrong.  Perhaps not so great an error as inflating the cost of the event by a factor of ten.  Or of removing a maintenance tag calling for a source for the claim that it is "the most prestigious" deb ball.  Other than the ball's frequency, I won't see any other cited verifiable facts that I have changed. <font color="green">[[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]]</font><font color="green" size="5px"></font><sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 00:26, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
-{{user|WikiDan61}}, have you checked the Wikipedia page of "le bal des debutantes" About the crillon debutante ball in Paris?--[[User:1wikideb1|1wikideb1]] ([[User talk:1wikideb1|talk]]) 21:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
-: I had not previously seen [[Le Bal des Débutantes|that page]].  Now that I have, I say, What about it? <font color="green">[[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]]</font><font color="green" size="5px"></font><sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 21:49, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
-== See also ==
-The "see also" section of this article is overly broad and contains inappropriate links.  As of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=International_Debutante_Ball&oldid=555432703 today], the section contains the following links:
-* commons category:Socialites
-* [[Debutante]]
-*[[Socialite]]
-*[[Sloane Ranger]]
-*[[White Anglo-Saxon Protestant]]
-*[[Elitism]]
-* [[Famous for being famous]]
-* [[Jet set]]
-* [[Yuppie]]
-* [[Upper class]]
-* [[It girl]]
-*[[Preppy]]
-*[[Boston Brahmin]]
-*[[Social Register]]
-Of these links, several ([[Elitism]], [[White Anglo-Saxon Protestant]], [[Famous for being famous]], [[Boston Brahmin]], [[Preppy]], [[Sloane Ranger]]) could be considered as veiled attacks against the International Debutante Ball by association of this article with these terms that have decidedly negative connotations.  Of the rest, the association between the article in question and this article is vague at best.  I have tried to remove these links, but another author ({{user|1wikideb1}}) is not content to let these links be removed.  I have [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A1wikideb1&diff=554941244&oldid=554187005 asked] deb for discussion of this matter on [[wikt:xe|xyr]] talk page, but to no avail, so I bring the matter here to the general community.  Comments please! <font color="green">[[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]]</font><font color="green" size="5px"></font><sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 14:42, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
-: In the absence of any discussion to the contrary, I have removed the "See also" section.  Please do not restore it without discussion here first. <font color="green">[[User:WikiDan61|WikiDan61]]</font><font color="green" size="5px"></font><sup>[[User talk:WikiDan61|ChatMe!]]</sup><sub>[[Special:Contributions/WikiDan61|ReadMe!!]]</sub> 17:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)