Talk:'t kofschip

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Netherlands

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Any native Dutch person can be used as a source here, because everyone learns this mnemonic in school. There are only some Dutch sites that talk about it, for instance http://homes.esat.kuleuven.be/~athomas/werkwoorden.html and www.onzetaal.nl (about more specific difficult words)

This is considered common knowledge in Belgium and the Netherlands!!

neeën?[edit]

i have never geneed by my knowledge. what is neeën? "nee" means "no", but iv never came across it as a verb--Lygophile 11:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

seriously, can someone cite that, i dont believe "geneed" is a word. neeen is not a verb by my knowledge.--Lygophile 07:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC) ah screw it, i removed it, the "e" ending doesnt even count on this one--Lygophile 07:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

i think that entire rule only counts for loanwords anyway--Lygophile 07:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Added the verb sleeën, which is definitly not a loanword Bombshell 17:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Soft Ketchup[edit]

In dutch classes in Belgium, foreign students are taught to use "Soft Ketchup", which contains the same consonants...

ow, yeah it does. funny to know. should have a mention in the article--Lygophile 07:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, fourteen years later this is still the case (in the Netherlands); it's quite common in NT2 (Dutch as a second language) education. I have added it, now with a citation to satisfy the skeptics. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 10:42, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gedeletet?[edit]

I think the verb delete is an exception to the rule. I have never heard Dutch speaking person use 'deletete' or 'gedeletet'. I'm quite sure that everybody says "ik delete" (past tense) and "de file is gedelete". Can anybody check het groene boekje if these words even exist? Either way, I think there are better examples. risk 22:07, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

i was curious about the same thing, but i found somewhere on the internet a site with all sorts of examples of "vervoegde" english loanwords in dutch and you spell it as 'deletete', but you pronounce it as 'deletuh'. the thing is here that the english 'ete' is pronounced as 'eet', so with a silent second 'e', and in dutch past tence we add 'te' to the 'ete' thus creating 'etete' pronounced with a silent 'e' in the middle, resulting in the auditive merging of both 't's.--Lygophile 00:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The correct spelling is gedeletet, even though the final t is not pronounced. Känsterle 17:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

het kofschip?[edit]

I wonder why it is 't kofschip and not het kofschip, since the h is in 't kofschip and the doesn't matter any more since a word needs vowels and o and i are allready in 't kofschip. Furthermore if you would write het kofschip, you loose the stupid apostrophe.

Bombshell 20:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

but then you needlessly use a redundant consonant. this way you display the seven consonants as seven consonants. (allthough that no longer works since "x")· Lygophile has spoken 18:53, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's why I have always learned 't ex-kofschip Gooper20 (talk) 20:26, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's nice as a mnemonic, but it would be much more helpful to just teach the voicing rule. That way you can apply it even to words with irregular spelling, like "browsen". CodeCat (talk) 21:03, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, adding the H would be wrong. the H doesn't count as the consonant, but you have to interpret it as CH. I can't think of any verbs that end with a C or an H at the moment, but they would have -ed added for the past tense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Echtwelzo (talk • contribs) 09:02, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a note on what kofschip actually means for us non-speaker would be helpful? After a brief google search I'm thinking it's "tall ship"? --Kvasir (talk) 16:34, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rest assured that most Dutch people also don't know what a kofschip is, aside from that it's some kind of "ship". −Woodstone (talk) 16:43, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is a nl:kofschip (schip) article but there is no English counterpart. I can read the French article (it only has a couple sentences), but I'm not familiar with maritime terminology, nevermind in French. :\ --Kvasir (talk) 16:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ramsjen ?[edit]

On the Dutch wikipedia (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27t_kofschip) I read about the verb ramsjen? I'm a Belgian but I wouldn't know what it means. The strange thing is that the verb root ends on a j, but the simple past ought to be ik ramsjte. As soon as I find out what it means, I'll put this stange creature in the text. Govert Miereveld 16:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

ramsjen means to sell something very cheap to get rid of it (if I got it right)

I added the "exceptions" petanquen and ramsjen. I think there only exists one verb with a root on q (petanquen) en one with a root on j (ramsjen).

Govert Miereveld 17:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"e" rule is flawed[edit]

"Exceptions
There are (at least) two exceptions two these rules:
petanquen (to play petanque): verb root = petanque; but past simple: ik petanquete, past participle gepetanquet
This is due to the fact that, in Dutch, a q is allways followed by a u, if this were not the case, the verb would be petanqen (root petanq), since q en k are pronounced the same petanqen would follow the t kofschip rule
petanquen is the only Dutch verb with a root on q
ramsjen (to sell something very cheap to get rid of it): verb root = ramsj; but past simple: ik ramsjte, past participle geramsjt
ramsjen is the only Dutch verb with a root on j"

To be honest im pretty sure it is not about the letter before the "e", and i doubt it has anything to do with the E either. in all the examples given, the "e" is silent, and so is the "u" in petanquen. im fairly certain it is simply all about the last non-silent letter· Lygophile has spoken 10:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Verbs with a root on ' (apostrophe)[edit]

Sorry, but I don't believe there are verbs with a root that ends on ' (apostrophe). The verb root of sms'en is sms, the verb root of gsm'en would be gsm. The first person singular is ik sms as well.

You can consider the apostrophe as part of the suffix, but not as part of the root. (This also holds for the suffix 'er in VLD'er, 'tje in A4'tje, 'je in sms'je, etc.) The alternative is to consider it neither part of the root or the suffix, but as a wordsign in between (as in Taalboek Nederlands, implied on p. 362)

— Adhemar 23:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Uhmm.. why so complex?[edit]

Swedish has the same thing with class II verbs.. unvoiced consonants receive -te and voiced receive -de in the preterite. Why isn't this mentioned in the article? I don't mean the rule in Swedish, but the rule here, 't kofschip = unvoiced consonants in Dutch. --nlitement ^[talk] 21:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Of course that's the real rule in Dutch too. This article is about the "mnemonic" taught in schools. It might be useful to add the underlying rule as well. −Woodstone (talk) 22:14, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the rule is stupid. Just teach the kids what the voiced and voiceless pairs are. It will help them in other languages like English as well. For foreigners it's not useful either. They probably don't know the word "kofschip" when they encounter this rule. They might be tempted to learn the single letters when you could just tell them about voiced and voiceless consonants and everything would be clear. --2001:16B8:31DC:D100:F1BB:96AD:FAAC:8E44 (talk) 01:29, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

't and the[edit]

In this case is 't = 'the'. In the beginning of the article is this duplication, I am right? I think that the 'so should be removed. In Dutch are this "De 't kofschip", what are duplication. I'm sorry for the my bad English, anyway.
Wait on a reaction, Coole95(NL) (talk) 15:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The " 't " is part of the name of the rule. The sentence is equivalent to: "The rule named ′t kofschip is a ...". this can be shortened correctly to: "The ′t kofschip rule is a ...". There is no functional duplication. −Woodstone (talk) 19:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

however the pronunciation remains /v/ and /z/[edit]

I don't believe this claim from the article (and I am Dutch, for what that is worth). Is it really true that the letter s is pronounced differently in "hij bloosde" and "hij hoestte"? It sounds the same to me... The same holds for the letter f in "zij proefde" and "zij proeft". At any rate, these are definitely very different sounds than in the words "blozen" and "proeven"! KarlFrei (talk) 11:27, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's difficult to hear, especially for Dutch people, but in the sequences "sd" "fd", the first letter has the same voicing as the second letter. So the combinations are indeed pronounced "zd" and "vd". −Woodstone (talk) 15:01, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I guess I will take your word for this then! I was really surprised to read this line in the article, but not quite sure enough of myself to just delete it. Thanks for the quick reply! KarlFrei (talk) 20:27, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]