Talk:Élisabeth Marguerite d'Orléans

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Some unnecessary items?[edit]

I don't quite see why one has to footnote her death date. It's in lots of sources and modern works. Also, I don't see why the "Directoire" merits being attached to the "Senate" (which is already stretching things by well over a century... I hate to delete them, but really, it adds confusing ruffles that are not of much help.Patricia M. Ranum (talk) 19:11, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I've done more editing: put the pictures of her families higher up in the article, with "close family". That permitted me to put most of her "life" together into a coherent presentation. I realize that this article no longer matches the others in this collection of princes and princesses, but Isabelle/Elisabeth is an important figure in French culture and she deserves a more rounded and less genealogically-oriented bio. I haven't eliminated the notes, some of which document the most elementary elements. If Wikipedia wants to keep them, so be it: all I elminated was that really very irrelevant reference to the "Directory" of Napoleon.Patricia M. Ranum (talk) 19:49, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Name in title[edit]

Surname of members of the Orléans family is *d'Orléans*, not *of Orléans* - *of* is used after a title given in English, such as, Philippe d'Orléans, Duke of Orléans. Changing name in title of this article to Élisabeth Marguerite d'Orléans, and correcting others of the Orléans family. Frania W. (talk) 00:11, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


I am troubled by the statement that she was Duchess of Angouleme in her own right. I don't see how that can be possible. The mother of her late husband, Louis Joseph de Lorraine, was the daughter (only heir) of N. de Valois, Duke of Angouleme/Alais. I don't know if there was some special condition that permitted Louis de Lorraine de Joyeuse to become Duke of Angouleme by his marriage. But I don't find anything of the sort in Moreri's Dictionary (18th century), which is very reliable. Rather, it would have been normal for the couple to hold the dukedom for a son... and that is just what happened: Louis Joseph de Lorraine de Guise was both Duke of Joyeuse and DUke of Angouleme. Fr-Joseph, his son by Elis. Mgte d'Orleans, was Duke of Alencon, Duke of Guise, Duke of Joyeuse and Duke of Angouleme, etc. BUT: that does not mean that Elis-Mgt remained duchess of Angouleme "in her own right" after the death of her husband in 1671. I don't know how reliable the source is on which these pages were based; but I think there are some very dubious things in them... Above all, I have never seen Elis-Mgt called "Duchess d'Angouleme": she is always Duchess of Alencon, and only Alencon. Witness the lengthy inscription on the illustration I provided: only Alencon, though husband and son were Angouleme. So I think that "in her own right" should be deleted. Patricia M. Ranum (talk) 14:50, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

My opinion is that the incorrect "in her own right" should be removed. Then, if someone ever comes up with proof to the contrary, he/she can put it back. Frania W. (talk) 22:27, 22 April 2009 (UTC)