|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the 10/40 Window article.|
|WikiProject Christianity||(Rated B-class, Low-importance)|
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- 1 Untitled
- 2 New Discussion
- 3 Most Frequent Article Edit Errors
- 4 Resolved Disputes
- 5 Eastern hemisphere only?
- 6 Significance in Evangelical Christianity section
- 7 Dead link
Update: August 2007. The article appears to be mostly stable now. One cited value (number of Jews in the Window) is clearly erroneous and has been noted as such. Unfortunately, no other published source has yet been found for that data. Could it be that the controversies have been resolved?
To the reader: please read the extensive discussion below as well as the archived discussion here before editing and/or adding additional comments. This article has been extensively examined and edited to achieve good neutrality, good citations, etc. Perhaps the most important points missed by many readers:
- The research was done in 1990. Today's data might well show a different result (which would likely validate the work done since 1990 to bring more attention to this part of the world!) Please do not compare your knowledge of the world today with what is described in this article.
- The nations of the 10/40 Window are there because of geography, not culture. Any nation that was at least 50 percent inside the window, is a Window nation.
Extensive discussions about disputed topics have been resolved since 2007. Those discussions have been moved to an archive page. See Talk:10/40_Window/Archive_1
Any new/current discussion should be added here. Of special interest: improving the wording and/or tightening up the "lead" to improve the rating.
Origin/coining of the term 10/40 window. The term cannot have been coined in 1990 by Luis Bush, because the term appears in the book The Coming Revolution in World Missions by K. P. Yohannan published in 1986. I don't know who coined this term, but it is goes back to 1986 at least. Xtian1977 (talk) 22:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Resolution: the term does not appear in the original edition of that (very good!) book; it was added in more recent revisions. The term really did originate in 1990. Reverting Xtian1977's edits. (Further info added: Yohannan's book claims to have been heavily edited for the 2004 edition, which is available online. The earlier editions (at least 1986-1995) do not reference the 10/40 Window. Unfortunately, the Google "1986" edition is actually from much later, with comments about eleven years of feedback, etc. Check their 1995 version for proof.)
Most Frequent Article Edit Errors
These edits are repeatedly made. They are all incorrect. Please re-read the material below as well as the archived discussion.
- Italy, Spain and Ethiopia are not in the Window. North and South Korea are in the Window. Gibraltar and Macau were not considered independent nations at the time.
- Current economic status of China, Israel, Oil nations, etc is immaterial. The study was done in 1990, based on 1980's data.
- Be cautious when introducing heavily religious elements to the article. The analysis was a scientific correlation study based on widely recognized data. The implications of that study for various groups, whether missionaries or others, are really a separate topic.
More incorrect edits, mostly based on previously resolved discussion in the archive:
- Lists of "Christian nations." There's no generally accepted definition for this term, and there's no evidence such analysis was done in the 1990 10/40 Window study. A new study might produce some information on this; it would need citations and would be a separate topic, probably outside the scope of this article.
- The analysis was not of "presence of Christianity" but "access to Christian resources." These are not the same; see the linked references in the article. (Simple examples: a half-hour radio broadcast once a week, or a Bible on the shelf in a bookstore, represents "access" more than "presence.")
Are these the correct nations?
- Wealthy and/or "Christian" nations are included; poor and/or "non-Christian" nations are excluded.
- This is a generalization. Exceptions exist and are noted in the article.
- The term is an historical one, based on analysis done in 1990, using data available at the time. Today's data is immaterial.
Are the cited sources valid, NPOV, etc?
- Should "biased sources on both sides of an issue" be cited? Some would prefer citation of only neutral sources.
- Are "Christian" sources valid?
- Yes and yes...
- Read Wikipedia policy, which [recommends] quoting without promoting or berating sources that reflect various POV's.
- Read the policy on reliable sources.
- Read the policy on verifiability
- Read the NPOV FAQ, particularly here: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Making_necessary_assumptions
- Readers not familiar with the subject matter may be unaware that there's an extensive academic corpus behind the topic of Christianity, people group research, etc. Accredited college majors, journals, etc etc. "Christian" publications are not automatically excluded from Wikipedia as having a POV bias.
Is/was the cited data and analysis valid?
- Some see this as saying Christianity brings wealth, or that the problem is lack of evangelism.
- Some find the facts presented unsettling.
- The analysis found correlations, not causes.
- The analysis examined long term impact. Recent change does not invalidate the study.
- It found correlation between poverty/suffering and a lack of Christian resources. There's an implication that introducing Christian influence can assist with escape from poverty and suffering. That's not the same as equating prosperity and Christianity. There was no study of prosperity.
- The facts presented are based on (1990) valid, authoritative sources, all properly cited.
- Many concerns raised looked at today's population or poverty measures, rather than those available in 1990.
- Many concerns raised confused "western" religion with global data.
- Some do not know that Christianity has not been a "white, western" faith for a long time.
- Some concern was raised about questions of "access" to Christian resources. This is examined extensively in the cited references, particularly the World Christian Encyclopedia and Operation World.
Any dispute of the cited facts needs to be based on authoritative sources.
But aren't Christians responsible for oppressing these nations?
- Individuals, and even nations, have sometimes had horrible policy and practices. That doesn't relate to the question of Christian resources and influence.
- A good case study is India, obviously long under British rule. Yet the outcastes of India are held in place by a variety of factors; many would argue that much of this has to do with the upper classes enjoying the "benefit" of a slave class. One of the more eloquent is the "Tocqueville" of India, Vishal Mangalwadi. In The Quest for Freedom and Dignity: Caste, conversion and cultural revolution" he argues passionately that 'Caste, karma, and reincarnation created today's Hindu hierarchy, but caste cannot coexist with democracy. Democracy, built on the biblical principles of justice and equality, is driving Dalits and other lower caste Hindus to rise up against 3,000 years of Hindu caste-driven "apartheid."'
Eastern hemisphere only?
Portugal is included, I noticed, yet from a geographical standpoint, Portugal is west of the Prime Meridian, as is Great Britain. So, is this 10/40 geographical primarily or what?Jlujan69 (talk) 01:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
- Good question. "Eastern hemisphere" can be the arbitrary degree-based definition, but most people use the more traditional occidental/oriental definition, where eastern is the "half" of the world that includes Eurasia, Africa and Australia. cf http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=eastern%20hemisphere Mr Pete (talk) 21:18, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Significance in Evangelical Christianity section
This entire section is purely meaningless drivel. It belongs on a missions website, not an encyclopedia. I propose eliminating the section because there is no way to salvage it.--22.214.171.124 (talk) 17:25, 1 October 2009 (UTC)