Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War

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Some inaccuracies[edit]

War of Independence (May 1948-July 1949)[edit]

As per the IDF history page the events prior to May 1948 should not be considered part of the War of Independence nor be named as such. [1] Additionally you can use http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0761807217/theamericanisraeA/ as reference.

Course of the War - 1st phase[edit]

Southern front - Negev[edit]

The sentence:"For the first few weeks of the war, Egyptian warplanes were able to bomb Tel Aviv with almost complete impunity, meeting only ground fire. The Egyptians also attacked rural settlements and airfields, though few casualties were caused.[131] Two Royal Egyptian Air Force (REAF) Spitfires bombed Tel Aviv. One of them was shot down by anti-aircraft fire and its pilot taken prisoner. However, the Egyptians continued their bombing raids over the city, killing about 40 people. Most civilian casualties in Tel Aviv occurred on a 18 May raid against the Tel Aviv Central Bus Station.".

Thanks to Pluto's deletion, the reader may be surprised to learn that Tel Aviv arial bombing, belongs to the Negev. The "2 spitfires attack" is missing a date. It does not mentions the Egyption dakotas bombers.

Battles of Latrun[edit]

the sentence:"From these positions, the Jordanians were able to cut off supplies to Israeli troops and civilians in Jerusalem"

It is suggested to write that "the Jordanians cut off supplies and water line to Israeli troops and civilians in Jerusalem" (Morris 2008 p. 230-231)

Battle for Jerusalem[edit]

The sentence: "The Jordanians in Latrun cut off supplies to western Jerusalem.".

Proposed: "The Jordanians in Latrun cut off supplies and the water line to western Jerusalem." The sentence:"The Arab Legion fired 10,000 artillery and mortar shells a day'

10000 a day is probably a huge exaggeration.

Notes[edit]

  1. ^ "IDF History Page". http://www.idf.il/1503-en/Dover.aspx. 

Cite error: A list-defined reference named "Morris2008p79" is not used in the content (see the help page).
Cite error: A list-defined reference named "Bogdanor2011p82" is not used in the content (see the help page).
Cite error: A list-defined reference named "Woods-Shlaim1996p219" is not used in the content (see the help page).

Palestinian Exodus sources[edit]

Should we add a few more sources to the Palestinian Exodus section? Say Benny Morris & other 'New Historians' as they are called in Israel? Merlov1 02:13 AM, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Jordan had partial victory, don't you think?[edit]

Jordan wanted to annex the area west to the Jordan river. Since the second ceace fire, the frontline in Samaria havent canged almost entirly, the Jordanians belived that they could exploit a silent front with the Israeli front because they didn't want to loose alot of land. In the end they annexed the West Bank and enjoyed the area and the people (gave them citizenship). Isn't it a partial victory? I mean, of course the main official plan was to destroy Israel, but all countries joined the war for their intrests in establishing a united Arab entity or just carving some lands (As Syria wanted the whole "Greater Syria" areas and they belived they could take the Galilee and Egypt wanting to annex the Negev desert). Jordan did managed to earn some of what they wanted and they havent lost to many fights in compare to Egypt.

What I offer is that we will put in the "resaults" section "Jordanian partial victory". Bolter21 (talk) 21:42, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

You are right and 2 sources can be given for this :
  • Anita Shapira, L'imaginaire d'Israël : histoire d'une culture politique (2005), Latroun : la mémoire de la bataille, Chap. III. 1 l'événement p. 91–96
  • Benny Morris, 1948, (2008), p.419.
Pluto2012 (talk) 08:09, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
@Pluto2012:Excuse me for forgetting about this talk.Seems you have solid references. Would you mind adding them to the "resaults" in the infobox? I am going on a vacation soon and ain't nobody got time for that.--Bolter21 (talk) 23:36, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Nonsense sentence[edit]

"As a result of the war the State of Israel retained the area that the UN General Assembly Resolution 181 had recommended for the proposed Jewish state as well as almost 60% of the area of Arab state proposed by the 1948 Partition Plan.[16]"

I do not know how to interpret this sentence, but any way I do it, the result is nonsense.

The Mandate of Palestine was approximately 47,000 sqmi. Approximately 20% of Palestine was allotted to the Jews, 80% to the new state called Trans-Jordan, the Arab state. So if the Jews ended up with 60% of the Arab allotment, Israel would be 5x the size of Jordan, which it has never been. Area of Israel today: 8,500 sqmi included the annexed regions of Golan and Jerusalem (18% of the Mandate), and the West Bank is 2000 sqmi (4% of the Mandate). Area of Jordan today: 35,500 sqmi (76% of the Mandate). Even if I interpret this as, "after the 1949 Armistice the Jewish area of Israel was 40% of what the UN had allotted to the Jews, while 60% was captured Arab allotments," which is of course NOT what the sentence says, this too is nonsense. I try a third time by seeing if the any Arab group lost 60% of their land, also not what the sentence says, and I find this nowhere.

The sentence leads the reader to conclude that Jews cheated the Arabs by forcibly taking vast areas of land that were Arab, when in fact nothing of a sort ever took place. One has to wonder about the intent of publishing such nonsense.

The map of the Partition is equally misleading. Leaving out Trans-Jordan leaves out 80% of the Mandate. 69.146.183.26 (talk) 19:54, 31 July 2015 (UTC) 69.146.183.26 (talk) 19:43, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Unbalanced statistics[edit]

Why does the Arab total not include logistics but the Israeli total does? It vastly inflates the numbers. For example, the book "Militarization and State Power in the Arab-Israeli Conflict" gives 45,000 to 70,000 Israeli troops and 94,000 Arab troops. This should really be remedied.--Monochrome_Monitor23:33, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

There is no reason to believe that the source you added is better than what you removed. You also didn't bother to reference it properly. Bare URLs are not adequate, especially when they don't even link to the right page. The figures are far higher that those of specialist authors and seem to be lifted from inflated numbers published by Anthony Cordesman. Zerotalk 02:49, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
So it's the bare URL that's the problem? Those are all over the place, seems like a red herring to me. And do you have any evidence Anthony Cordesman is not RS? I've never heard of him until now, but he's head of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Seems pretty legit. --Monochrome_Monitor 19:57, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
And surely citations are better than no citations. I didn't look in google for "biased estimate of combat troops in Arab-Israeli war". I looked for "combat troops involved in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war" with some Boolean operators and found the link. It was the closest thing to a breakdown I could find. --Monochrome_Monitor 20:06, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
And the estimates are lopsided considering the Arab troops only include combat, but Israeli troops includes logistics and reserves. --Monochrome_Monitor 20:07, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
That seems to be just your private theory. There is no reason to believe that the many good sources which estimate troop strength aren't using the same criteria for both sides. To give one example, the strength of the IDF by its own reckoning was already 88,000 by October 1948 and continued to grow until the end of 1949. So a final figure of 70,000 is simply wrong. The Arab counts in that source are far higher than in books by Israeli military specialists like Amitzur Ilan. I'm wondering if Cordesman might be counting the entire Arab armies rather than what was committed to Palestine. Zerotalk 23:37, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
@Monochrome Monitor :
You should also take more time to the reading of the sources you use. Eg using this, you introduced the number 94,500 instead of 55,000 whereas it mentions the same numbers as currently in the article for the Arab side. If this questions of the relative forces interests you, you should try to take some hours to check the different sources on the topic and gather all the information, try to cross-check, identify potential mistakes or misunderstanding (they don't always talk about the same think), ... Pluto2012 (talk) 05:37, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
No, it's not my own reading. It literally says it in the source "only includes combat troops". --Monochrome_Monitor 03:07, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
And did you read your sources? That would be a miracle, because none are listed for most of the statistics. --Monochrome_Monitor 03:11, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Things in the lead, which includes the infobox, don't need to be sourced if they are sourced in the body of the article, see WP:LEADCITE. Zerotalk 11:26, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi Monochrome,
I didn't read the sources of this article ; that's correct.
But because I know these numbers by heart. I read several books (entirely) about the 1948 war.
When sources give "new" numbers, I check them.
Sometimes I also check when I am not sure.
Pluto2012 (talk) 17:49, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

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N Archived sources still need to be checked

Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 00:05, 28 August 2015 (UTC)