Talk:1993 murders in Prashanthi Nilayam

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Neutrality[edit]

I'm questioning the neutrality of this article, it seems to be leading the reader to a conclusion. I'm going to seek further input on this. Cheers. Hiding T 22:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

If there are any such issues I think we could easily fix them by drawing further material from quality sources. The BBC documentary 'Secret Swami'[1] covers this.. the documentary also seems to suggest these were murders. White adept (talk) 08:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
[User:Dilip_Rajeev], Don't add back the photos from Basava Premananda's book "Murders in Baba's Ashram" - This was declared as unreliable source in the earlier Mediation Discussion. I Would like to remind you that you are violating your first arbitration enforcement case adding questionable sources again and again!! 12:49, 20 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Radiantenergy (talkcontribs)

Notability[edit]

Six deaths? That definitely doesn't meet the notability requirements.Drew Smith What I've done 22:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

It does when God is involved. SSB says he is God and followers believe that. Andries (talk) 17:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Its still not notable. Church murders of this size still dont meet the notability requirements.Drew Smith What I've done 23:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
The numbers do not say all. For example, the Crucifixion of Jesus involved only one person and was still notable. This incident was also published in Dutch newspaper at the time. I have no problem if it is merged to Sathya Sai Baba movement, but to delete it only because the event is not notable is erroneous. Andries (talk) 07:15, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
The crucifixion of Jesus is more akin to the execution of sadaam hussein(with the obvious exeption that sadaam could have been evil and jesus wasn't). And there are many church killings, with various levels of brutality, here in the states, in papers everywhere, that don't have articles.Drew Smith What I've done 08:03, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

List of unreliable and banned sources used in this article[edit]

1) Source Priddy - banned in the second arbitration of the Sathya Sai Baba article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2#Robert_Priddy

This article references following Priddy sources.
  • Analysis of 1993 Murders Discrepancies by Robert Priddy
  • Janakiramiah, Sai Baba’s blackmailing younger brother, Robert Priddy

2) Source Basava Premananda - Declared Unreliable in the BostonMA mediation discussion on Sathya Sai Baba in 2006. . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BostonMA/Mediation

This article references following Premanada Sources:
  • Analysis by Bhasava Premanand of the 1993 Murders
  • Investigate the Murder at Satya Sai Baba's Collage, The Indian Skeptic.May 1998.] Image of body as carried on Indian Skeptic( warning: graphic images ).
  • SATYA SAI BABA. Retelling The Story, Babu R.R. Gogineni Former General Secretary of Rationalist Association of India - Self published document based on Basava Premananda

3) "The Findings" - This source was declared as unreliable in Boston MA mediation discussion in 2006.

This article uses the following references from Findings:
  • The Findings. An investigative report and collection of incriminating testimony complied by The Baileys.
  • The Findings. Terry Gallagher - A Letter to the Baileys.

Radiantenergy (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Implementing the recommendations[edit]

Unreliable sources were asked to be deleted from this article in the Article For Deletion discussion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/1993_Murders_in_Prashanthi_Nilayam.
The following list of unreliable sources and other attack websites banned by second arbitration will also be removed.

Name[edit]

How did we arrive at "1993 Murders in Prashanthi Nilayam" for the name of this article? The sources I looked at called it an attack or an attempted assassination. None of them called it a "murder".   Will Beback  talk  01:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

The original editor who created this article coined it that way. I would want to change it to "1993 Intruder Incident". I have seen that name in some sources. I will like to point that sources published at that time carried different names based on their discussion of fringe theories. We need to come up with an appropriate Name. Again I would n't rush up changing name rather discuss more come up with an appropriate one. Radiantenergy (talk) 12:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
Can you cite the sources you're thinking of? I'll look at the sources I previously excerpted to see how they refer to it.   Will Beback  talk  20:38, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

1993 Incident Sources and Details:

  • Every single Newspaper published about this incident for months and kept changing their stories almost regularly and speculating why it happened.
  • In the Week it was titled "Deadly power struggle in Puttaparthi" and some others had different title depending on what fringe theory and speculation they were covering in that particular day.
  • The title "Attempted Assasination" may not work because it is not clear whether it was an "Assasination Attempt" or "Power Struggle"?.
  • The problem with this incident is that even reputed Newspapers like the ones listed below kept changing their stories almost every week as "No one really knew what happened and Why it happened" and were coming up with their own conclusions and speculations.
  • The Central Bureau Of Investigation (Which is equivalent to FBI) failed to conclude on the incident.
  • The only information which every source agreed was the intruder attack that 4 armed assailants with knives entered the ashram, in the following fight killed Baba's attendants and were shot dead by police.

::::Partial list of reliable sources which were published at that time:

THE WEEK JUNE 20, 1993, pages 28-33High intrigue. Deadly power struggle in Puttaparthi
The Hindustan Times 9-6-1993
The Hindu 9-6-1993
The Hitavada, Nagpur 9-6-1993
Times of India 9-6-1993
Indian Express 9-6-1993
Deccan Chronicle, Hyderabad 10-6-1993
Deccan Herald, 10-6-1993
The Hindu, 10-6-1993
The Pioneer, New Delhi 10-6-1993
The Times of India 10-6-1993
The Times of India 11-6-1993
The Hindustan Times New Delhi 9-6-1993
Indian Express 9-6-1993:
Deccan Chronicle, Hyderabad 10-6-1993
Deccan Chronicle 10-6-1993.
The Hindu 10-6-1993:
The Times of India, Delhi, 13-6-1993
Indian Express, New Delhi 13-6-1993
Deccan Chronicle, Hyderabad, 9-6-1993
Indian Express, Vizianagaram, 16-6-1993
The Telegraph, Calcutta 16-6-1993
Deccan Chronicle, Hyderabad 26-6-1993
The Hindu, Hyderabad 27-10-1995
The Hitavada, Nagpur 24-6-1993
The Hindu, Coimbatore 18-6-1993
The Hindu, Vishakapatnam 1-7-1993
Frontline 2-7-1993
Indian Express Vijawada, 4-7-1993
Nagpur Times 8-7-1993
The Hitavada 8-7-1993
The Hitavada 9-7-1993
Indian Express, Vijayawada 11-7-1993
Dalit Voice 19-7-1993
Times of India 27-10-1993
Deccan Herald, Bangalore 20-2-1994
I will strongly suggest that knowing what we know at this point of time from all these sources the title "1993 Incident in Prashanthi Nilayam" or "1993 Intruder Incident in Prashanthi Nilayam" is more appropriate.

Thanks. Radiantenergy (talk) 03:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand what conclusion we can draw from that list of articles. Their titles might be useful.   Will Beback  talk  03:19, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
This incident happened 17 years ago. I cannot find any online links. I don't have the Paper clippings either. This list is from the earlier deletion discussion we had. What I will suggest is we need to come up with an appropriate title with what ever we know about this incident. May be go ahead and suggest some like I suggested above and we can discuss it. Radiantenergy (talk) 03:33, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Here are the descriptors used in some of the excerpts on the SSB talk page:
  • an apparent assassination attempt
  • an attempt was allegedly made on his life '
  • what was described as an assassination attempt
  • The sensational murder of two of Sathya Sai Baba's attendants ... with the aim of assassinating him..
  • killing of four alleged intruders
  • Sai Baba had survived an attempt on his life ... six devotees ... were killed in his bedroom
  • allegedly sought to assassinate him
  • killed in a scuffle in his living quarters, apparently a conflict between devotees
  • attacked his retainers, killing two..
  • the attack was a result of infighting among the ashram inmates over a financial dispute.
  • However, Baba cleared the cloud over the murder attempt. He went on to tell that there was no bid on his life.
"Assassination attempt" seems pretty common. "Incident" could refer to anything. "Attack" or "killings" seem more descriptive.   Will Beback  talk  05:11, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Please remember that it was not clear if it was an assasination attempt or a power struggle fight. I need some time to dig for more sources and a proper title that will justify the article. Radiantenergy (talk) 02:04, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
For article names, the standard is to use the phrase used most commonly. It doesn't have to be inclusive enough to cover every possible POV.   Will Beback  talk  03:15, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I understand that. Still the title "Assassination attempt" seems inappropriate. I don't see a point in rushing I need a day or two to dig up more sources. These articles were untouched for years I don't understand why there's a sudden rush to change every thing overnight?Radiantenergy (talk) 03:34, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
The reason why there's attention now is obvious. There's no rush. I'm sure you're busy with other matters at the moment. So am I. Let's come back to this later.   Will Beback  talk  07:24, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Quotation and source[edit]

  • Sathya Sai Baba in the Guru Purnima Discourse on July 3, 1993 responded to the incident stating Jealousy and hatred were the reasons for the incident. "The one who is afflicted with the disease of jealousy is all perversion. The name and repute of Sai has spread all over the world. In the world today, in the present situation, people started with full jealousy either to control it, to diminish it by some way or take measures to put a stop to it. This kind of propaganda will not increase or decrease Swami's glory. The main reason for Swami's glory is His sacredness, not your publicity and your teaching. From head to foot, Swami is selfless with sacred love. This sacred love is unmovable by anybody. Swami does not hate anyone. Swami does no harm to anyone. Why should they harm Swami? There is no necessity for it. This is because of jealousy and hatred. Devotees should not suffer because of these things. Truly speaking, the devotee with that feeling will never waver."

I have some questions about this. First, what kind of source is this? It appears to be an unpublished speech posted to self-published website. Does Sathya Sai Baba normally give his addresses in English, or is this a translation? Does he normally refer to himself in the third-person, or is someone else speaking? Second, how do we know that this passage is a reference to the attack? Why are we quoting these particular words from a much longer document? It's so oblique that he could be talking about anything, and this specific quotation definitely seems to be discussing other matters. Does any independent source make reference to this speech? I'm inclined to think that this should be removed unless these issues can be addressed.   Will Beback  talk  21:11, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I see your point. Here are answers to your question
  • I can replace the existing source with the one from the Official Sathya Sai website. Sathya Sai Baba quotes from Official site is also used in the main article as per the earlier Wikipedia BLP /NPOV discussion recommendation. I may need a couple of days to get this source. The speech was rendered by Sathya Sai Baba publically before 1000's of his followers after the June incident during the July Guru Poornima Celebration in Puttaparthi.
  • Sathya Sai Baba rendered the speech in Telugu and had a translater to translate into English. The Translater translates every line in English after Sathya Sai Baba finishes his sentence.
  • Sathya Sai Baba made references to the June incident in several places in this speech and also talked in length about his Cook "Radha Krishnan" who was killed by the assailants during the June incident.
  • At that time important parts of Baba's July speech was also published is some secondary sources such as the Hindu Newspaper and Deccan Herald but its going to be difficult to find online print copy as the incident happened 17 years ago.

Radiantenergy (talk) 03:28, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Most of the quoted text does not seem to concern the attack. I'm leery of using primary source material we find on our and which we decide seems relevant. It'd be best to use secondary sources that quote this speech instead of cherry picking parts of it on our own.   Will Beback  talk  05:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
  • It a very important speech by Sathya Sai Baba and has several references to the incident. Being New to this article and its sources you will find it difficult to understand. Yet its still a very important speech with lots of pointers to the incident.
  • If you look at Religious Website like "United_Church_of_Christ" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ. They use references to all their official websites. The same goes with several other religious websites. Sathya Sai Baba article is also another religious website and he has more than 10 million followers across the globe.
  • If we want to write a religious article pertaining to the details of a religious organisation or religious quotes or religious beliefs / doctrines etc their Official websites need to be used.
  • You won't find this information in other secondary sources like a Newspaper especially their beliefs, sacred books and doctrines. To quote Sathya Sai Baba's or when talking about his Organisation or the Organaisation beliefs - usage of their Official website is allowed just like United_Church_of_Christ website this is as per the earlier Wikipedia Reliable Source Noticeboard recommendation.
Radiantenergy (talk) 01:48, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Is http://www.eaisai.com/baba/docs/d930703.html an official SSB website? If so, it's a primary source. Per WP:PSTS, articles should be based mainly on secondary sources. For a source like this, it'd be best to use secondary sources which refer to it. If it's such an important speech it will have been referenced elsewhere. One reason for doing that is otherwise we don't know which parts of it to quote. For example, I could pick other excerpts, but how would we decide which excerpts to use?   Will Beback  talk  02:05, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
http://www.eaisai.com/baba/docs/d930703.html is not Official website. But I am going to get reference from the Official Website which is oked as per the Reliable Source Notice board. This incident happened 17 years ago when online Newspapers did n't even exist. That's the problem with hunting for secondary source related to this speech. The reference I am going to provide has more details than the one quoted above. I need a day or two to get it. Radiantenergy (talk) 02:08, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Do you have a connection to the official website? What is its URL - maybe I can find it.   Will Beback  talk  02:30, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
Here's the link to the Gurupoornima 1993 speech from the Official website. http://www.sssbpt.info/ssspeaks/volume26/sss26-25.pdf.

"Asuuya is the reason for June incidents. We often ask what is the reason for a particular action or event. There is no need to search for reasons. Just as hunger arises out of digestion, jealousy arises out of the disappearance of noble motives. The jealous man cannot bear the sight of a noble person or of one who is handsome and attractive. He cannot bear to look at one who is getting a good name or who has secured an eminent position. This jealousy has "no reason or season." Those afflicted with this malady begin to entertain many evil thoughts. In the world today, Sai's name and achievements are getting known the world over. To counteract this and to diminish it by some means or other, envious persons are resorting to certain types of propaganda. These propaganda campaigns will not affect My reputation in any manner. My purity is the root cause of the glory of My name. It is not due to any publicity or propaganda. My all-pervading selfless love is the cause. No one can affect this pure love. I have no ill-will towards anybody. Svaami has done no harm to anyone. How can anyone harm Svaami? It is impossible. "All activities of Sai are utterly selfless" These happenings should be attributed to jealousy. Devotees should not be perturbed by such events. Those who have true and firm faith will. not be shaken in any way by these happenings." Radiantenergy (talk) 02:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Why do you suppose the text is so different from the eaisai.com version we use in the article?
I see that it's also quoted in Sathya Sai and His Miraculous Power By R.Mohan Rai. That'd be a better source. [2]   Will Beback  talk  03:49, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
The above source Sathya Sai and His Miraculous Power By R.Mohan Rai - Can you let me know more information about this source.. I did n't look closely at this source. Is this a scholarly source?. I would prefer if its a scholarly source. Radiantenergy (talk) 20:34, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Verification of source request[edit]

What is needed for verification? I gave a date and article. What more is needed? Mr. Indula Shah, a chief functionary of the [[Sathya Sai Central Trust]] stated to the press that is an internal affair and that he did not wish to have any law enforcement to investigate it. <ref>[[The Hindu]], 10-6-1993</ref>{{Verify source|date=June 2013}}

Here are newspaper clippings and it is there. http://www.saibaba-x.org.uk/8/Murders_at_Sai_Baba%27s_Ashram_News_Reports.htm
Andries (talk) 16:18, 27 June 2013 (UTC)