# Talk:19 (number)

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## Simple divisibility test!?

With respect to divisibility, nineteen has a very simple test: 19 divides 100×a+b if and only if it divides a+4×b.

I hardly think that's simple, and certainly not very simple. My standard for a simple divisibility test is whether performing the divisibility test is actually easier than dividing the number. In the case of this divisibility test, I think it's a lot easier to just divide the number. PrimeFan 21:38, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

## Plichta

Ok we can argue about it being a key number but it certainly is a very important no. in chemistry like a code which was discovered by Dr. Plichta. Goto http://www.submission.org/miracle/19-chemistry.html , youll see plichtas calcs past half the article but do go through all of it.

Until there is something about this in a reliable source (probably a refereed journal), it doesn't belong in Wikipedia.Matchups 03:46, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

## "In other fields" section

I've restored the "In other fields" section for the sake of consistency, as other articles about numbers have such a section (they are standardized by Wikipedia:WikiProject Numbers). Korg (talk) 17:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

## Wikepedia on 19 information

Since your format is so spartan, just to let you know that your article on 19 will be a humorous  show peice in the book on non linear mathematics, and the book without giving its name is based on 19 prime and features the name of one of the most distinguished mathematician of the world who is on Wikepedia on its cover , and proves that the number 19 and its inverse is the center peice of all non linear mathematics.
I suppose we can give you an equation to give all you "Spartans" a hint: sans the thieves that abound in mathematics today

10/19-0.5 =0.026315789474 =(10/19*0.5)/10 =0.5- 9/19 =(9/19*0.5)/9--

71.98.63.98 (talk) 15:59, 3 March 2011 (UTC)--71.98.63.98 (talk) 15:59, 3 March 2011 (UTC) .

The only unique equation in the world discovered by us and proving the main role of 19 in non linear mathematics.

V.Cameron M.D De pointes (talk)

P.S The format of Wikipedia is too spartan for any comments / discussion in mathematics/ sciences

71.98.63.98 (talk) 15:59, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

## Islam: #19 in Qur'an

### Islam

• The number of angels guarding Hell ("Hellfire") according to the Qur'an: "Over it is nineteen" (74:30). Note: there were 19 Muslim terrorists on 9/11.
• The Number of Verse and Sura together in the Qur'an which announces "Jesus son of Maryam's (Mary's) birth" (Qur'an 19:19).

I added that there were 19 terrorists on 9/11. I also changed the wording from "Jesus Christ" to "Jesus son of Maryam's (Mary's) birth". This is how it appears in the Qur'an. 65.10.167.133 (talk) 01:03, 4 June 2011 (UTC) Brad Watson, Miami

## The first Statement of Quran having 19 Arabic letters.

I God Willing intend to add some statements on number 19 in the "Religion" section to show number 19's association with the Quran as its code.

For example, it’s the sum of the first powers of 9 and 10 and the difference between the second powers of 9 and 10 (Martin Gardner, Scientific American, Sept. 1980, p. 22).

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ (﻿١﻿ [Quran 1:1] In the name of GOD, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.*

• 1:1 The first verse in the Quran represents the foundation upon which a superhuman 19-based mathematical miracle is built. This important statement consists of 19 Arabic letters, and every word in it occurs in the whole Quran in multiples of 19 (Quran: By Dr. Rashad Khalifa Ph D).

AlphaOmega19 (talk) 09:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

The Quran's verse (and even chapter) structure is not formally established. And, we would need to know that Dr. Rashad Khalifa is an expert (whether or not you are he), or published in what we consider reliable sources. I would advise against these additions unless from reliable sources. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:00, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
See Rashad Khalifa, United_Submitters_International#The_Quran.27s_Mathematical_code_of_number_19... AnonMoos (talk) 20:37, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

AlphaOmega19 - 12 Nov 2011

Thanks to Arthur for asking me to provide evidence of expert and published in reliable sources; and specially to AnonMoos for putting the link about the above. May my Lord guide me to do better next time. Dr. Rashad Khalifa, among other aspects, was on the roster of scientists called ‘Technical Assistance Experts’ with the United Nations Industrial Development Organization (UNIDO) http://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/jesus/chapter10.pdf.

God willing, I now propose to add the following statements on number 19 in the Section "Religion" Islam (Submission to God) section to show the number 19's association with the Quran code:

1. To supplement the existing statement on the page >> The Number of Verse and Sura together in the Qur'an which announces "Jesus son of Maryam's (Mary's) birth" (Qur'an 19:19). << the following addition is proposed. The first verse of Chapter (Sura) 19 – Maryam (Mary) is: K. H. Y. 'A. S.* (Kãf Hã Yã 'Ayn Sãd)

• 19:1 This is the maximum number of Quranic Initials. The five initials of the Quran code provide a powerful physical evidence to support virgin birth of Jesus and other issues referred to in this Sura (See Appendices 1 & 22) http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/frames/index.html. Dr. Rashad Khalifa offered proof about his claim of the 19 based miracle in the Quran and his role to purify and consolidate all God's messages into one. He also pointed that the same 19 based code existed for example in the Old Testament.

2. بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ (١ http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/miracle/images/basmalah2.jpg [Quran 1:1] In the name of GOD, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.* 1:1 The first verse in the Quran represents the foundation upon which a superhuman 19-based mathematical miracle is built. This important statement consists of 19 Arabic letters, and every word in it occurs in the whole Quran in multiples of 19 (Quran: By Rashad Khalifa Ph.D.) http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/frames/index.html.

3. The Quran has 19 x 6 = 114 Suras (Chapters) http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/frames/index.html.

4. There are numerous 19 related mathematical patterns in the Quran as evidenced under Overview, History and External Links on Wikipedia’s Quran code.

AlphaOmega19 (talk) 04:24, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with the inclusion. It's the unique theory of Rashad Khalifa and United Submitters International the organization may be notable enough to have the notes with "according to United Submitters International".... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:02, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

It is a fact that Quran has 114 = 19x6 Suras (Chapters). This is confirmed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran (please see 3rd sentence). I trust you have no reservation on this else please share your research.

AlphaOmega19 (talk) 13:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not sure the Suras are numbered. There have been reports that only the text of the Quran is considered inspired, not the division into Suras. Furthermore, thats would be a property of 114, not of 19. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:08, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks again Arthur for sharing your points of view. The idea is to present the number 19 as the common base by using those facts which are simple and easy to verify. These facts can also be verified by using Quran data from sites and sources independent of United Submitters International. The independent sources include following,

1. Corpus Quran – For 19 related verification. http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=19&verse=1

2. It is a fact that one can verify the 19 based proofs using for example the highly verified Unicode Quran text used in Quranic websites and applications from http://tanzil.net/wiki/Tanzil_Project which is independent of United Submitters International.

3. Miracles of Quran – For 19 related verification. http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html 4. The Online Quran Project includes the Qur'an translation into English by Marmaduke Pickthall. There are about 38 English translations in the link below. It also has transliteration in English. http://al-quran.info/?x=y#&&sura=24&aya=1&trans=en-marmaduke_pickthall&show=both,quran-uthmani&ver=2.00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmaduke_Pickthall Trust you have no objection to my placing on the page the items proposed earlier and those below with additional reliable sources and adding presently, the words according to/ as presented by United Submitters International.

Example of the simple facts that can be independently verified are http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix1verify.html ,

1. The first verse (1:1),known as "Basmalah," consists of 19 letters.

2. The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is 19 x 6.

3. The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or 19 x 334. [6234 numbered verses & 112 un-numbered verses (Basmalahs) 6234+112 =

6346] Note that 6+3+4+6= 19.

4. The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its conspicuous absence from Sura 9 (it occurs twice in Sura 27) & 114 = 19 x 6.

5. From the missing Basmalah of Sura 9 to the extra Basmalah of Sura 27, there are precisely 19 suras.

6. It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27 (9+10+11+12+...+26+27) is 342, or 19 x 18.

7. This total (342) also equals the number of words between the two Basmalahs of Sura 27, and 342 = 19 x 18.

8. The famous first revelation (96:1-5) consists of 19 words.

9. This 19-worded first revelation consists of 76 letters 19 x 4.

10. Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists of 19 verses .

11. This first chronological sura is placed atop the last 19 suras.

12. Sura 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters, and 304 equals 19 x 16.

13. The last revelation (Sura 110) consists of 19 words.

14. The first verse of the last revelation (110:1) consists of 19 letters.

15. 14 different Arabic letters, form 14 different sets of "Quranic Initials" (such as A.L.M. of 2:1), and prefix 29 suras. These numbers

add up to 14+14+29 = 57= 19 x 3.

16. The total of the 29 sura numbers where the Quranic Initials occur is 2+3+7+...+50+68 = 822, and 822+14 (14 sets of initials) equals

836, or 19 x 44.

17. Between the first initialed sura (Sura 2) and the last initialed sura (Sura 68) there are 38 un-initialed suras 19 x 2.

18. Between the first and last initialed sura there are19 sets of alternating “initialed” and “uninitialed” suras.

19. The Quran mentions 30 different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300,

1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50000, & 100000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.

20. When you recite "The Key" in Arabic, your lips touch each other precisely 19 times. Your lips touch each other where the letters "B" and "M" occur. There are 4 "B's" and 15 "M's" and this adds p to 19. The gematrical value of the 4 "B's" is 4x2=8, and the gematrical value of the 15 "M's" is 15x40=600. The total gematrical value of the 4 "B's" and 15 "M's" is 608, that is 19x32.

Word        - Letter            -                    Value

1. Bism - B - 2

2. Bism - M - 40

3. Rahman - M - 40

4. Rahim - M - 40

5. Al-Hamdu - M - 40

6. Rub - B - 2

7. `Alamin - M - 40

8. Rahman - M - 40

9. Rahim - M - 40

10. Malik - M - 40

11. Yawm - M - 40

12. Na`budu - B - 2

13. Mustaqim - M - 40

14. Mustaqim - M - 40

15. An`amta - M - 40

16. `Alayhim - M - 40

17. Maghdub - M - 40

18. Maghdub - B - 2

19. `Alayhim - M - 40

608
(19x32)

(AlphaOmega19 (talk) 20:54, 12 November 2011 (UTC))

Arthur Peace be upon you,

Can you please equitably elaborate for common benefit of this page and to me, which of the following links that have been quoted are “badly sourced” and why:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranic_Arabic_Corpus (The Quranic Arabic Corpus is an annotated linguistic resource consisting of 77,430 words of Quranic Arabic ) http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=19&verse=1 is a resource of the above. If you have any reservations please elaborate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmaduke_Pickthall provides external links to online Quran project containing about 38 English Translations. These prove the contents K.H.Y.’A.S of Sura (Chapter) 19:1. If you have reservations or consider it “trivia” please elaborate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqatta%27at proves that Chapter (Sura) 19 of the Quran has the maximum number of initials in any verse or Sura.

http://www.universityofcalicut.info/syl/Islamic.pdf the University of Calicut India proves (i) the relevance of mathematics and 19 (ii) the relevance of Sura Mary and the number 19. If you have any reservation about the modified presentation as above please elaborate.

God Willing I propose to improve the formatting by placing two bullet points on the article page,

• The first verse of Chapter (Sura) 19 of the Quran – Maryam (Mary) comprises of only 5 letters in multiple of 19 in this chapter: K. H. Y. 'A. S.* (Kãf Hã Yã 'Ayn Sãd). These are the maximum number of initials. These facts are widely accepted.

• The total number of these five letters is a multiple of 19. http://www.19miracle.org/math-miracle-of-quran/19-mary-k-h-y-a-s The aggregate of these five letters K. H. Y. 'A. S of Chapter (Sura) 19 is 19 x 42 (137+175+343+117+26 = 798)

This link acknowledges that “Arabic text is from an external source: tanzil.net. http://tanzil.net/wiki/Tanzil_Project this is highly verifiable Unicode Quran text used in Quranic various websites.

If there are any other formatting improvements please suggest else please provide links to verify what you consider good formatting.

On 12th Nov 2011 on the discussion page I had proposed items to be uploaded and had also stated “Trust you have no objection to my placing on the page the items proposed earlier and those below with additional reliable sources and adding presently, the words according to/ as presented by United Submitters International” and I did not receive any comments from anyone till 19th Nov 2011. Trust there are no reservations for the above.

(AlphaOmega19 (talk) 19:04, 21 November 2011 (UTC))

I'm not sure I have objections, but I don't think you have a any clearly reliable source. In discussions of any religious work, there are always dissenting views, and it's not clear your sources are mainstream. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Arthur Peace be upon you,

Thanks for your response. Could you please equitably also consider the following additional common sense reasons submitted here and elaborate why the Quran’s 19 code should be discriminated against in Wikipedia because the majority of those following “mainstream” Islam have not proclaimed it as visible to you?

1. It is apparent that “mainstream” Islam led by numerous opposing and dissenting cultural, religious sects, political, military leaders, kings and dictators has been far from cohesive ¬-- as clearly shown by continuing bloodshed in the Middle East and elsewhere, limitations on freedoms, peer pressure, terrorism and such.

2. In the above context, the sources relating to the Mathematical code 19 in the Quran additionally demonstrated below, are from “mainstream” Islam – for example – please see paragraphs 2 (a) to 4 below:

(a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_code history section shows: This now debatable discovery received wide publicity throughout the Islamic world – for example: http://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/jesus/chapter10.pdf. By the end of 1973, Rashad Khalifa had become well-known in circles (even a hero to some), commanding full-house audiences as he lectured at universities, mosques, organizations, and even royal and presidential palaces.

(b) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa states Khalifa's first publicized report in the Arab world appeared in the Egyptian magazine Akher Sa'a, in January, 1973. Updates of his research were subsequently published by the same magazine later that year and again in 1975: • ^ Akher Sa'a magazine, Egypt, January 24, 1973. • ^ Akher Sa'a magazine, Egypt, November 28, 1973. • ^ Akher Sa'a magazine, Egypt, December 31, 1975.

(c) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_code history section shows: However, his claims led to conclusions that unavoidably run contrary to the beliefs of mainstream Islam. A few examples of being contrary to mainstream Islam have been provided with links in the above page. Another example why present perceptions of “mainstream” Islam may cause reservations in formally accepting and proclaiming the 19 code and its consequential conclusions, is the book reflecting women's rights based on Quran. http://masjidtucson.org/publications/books/womensrights/index.html

3. It is submitted as logic and common sense that those of “mainstream” Islam who choose to publicly accept the 19 code in Quran and its conclusions that unavoidably run contrary to the beliefs of “mainstream” Islam, risk a lot in most Islamic countries. For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam states “Prominent recent examples of writers and activists killed because of apostasy claims include … Rashad Khalifa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashad_Khalifa Thus expecting to visually see a majority of those following “mainstream” Islam proclaiming 19 code in Quran, needs to be tempered with good logic, judgment, thoughtfulness and consideration.

4. Book written by Cesar Adib Majul, Ph.D., Former Dean, Institute of Islamic Studies, University of the Philippines regarding the 19 based Mathematical Structure of Quran: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_names_of_Allah_in_relation_to_the_ma.html?id=pntCAAAACAAJ and https://catalog.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?BBID=973897&DB=local and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Adib_Majul

5. Notwithstanding the above, the items of the 19 code in Quran proposed to be presented here, I understand, have not been ones where dissenting views of any significance have been shown. If there are any verifiable presentations contrary to what has been proposed, please show. Thanks.

Trust there are now no reservations for the above.

(AlphaOmega19 (talk) 18:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC))

Peace be upon you, As there are no comments on my last post of 18:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC) I presume there are no reservations and therefore God Willing intend to include the proposed items under "Religion" header in "Islam" section of the article.

Peace (AlphaOmega19 (talk) 16:33, 27 November 2011 (UTC))

Your previous post falls under WP:TL;DR. Still not a good idea, in my opinion. Even where accuracy is not disputed, notability, even among scholars of the Quran, is disputed. If you can attribute the claims as relevant to a notable sect of Islam, they could be listed in regard that sect. (I realize that mainstream Islam does not recognize the possibility of "sects".) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:57, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Peace be upon you Arthur,

Thanks for your reply. The lists of verifiable and reliable sources etc. were presented to do what best I could to convince you of the concerns you were bringing in from time to time.

In light of your earlier proposal, and as conveyed to you on 21st November, God willing, I propose to put on the page for all the Quran related 19 presentations to be made by me:

According to / as presented by and based on data from United Submitters International and additional independent sources such as Muqatta, [Adib Majul], Library Cornell University Of Calicut, Quranic Arabic Corpus, Tanzil Project:

• The first verse of Chapter (Sura) 19 of the Quran – Maryam (Mary) comprises of only 5 letters in multiple of 19 in this chapter: K. H. Y. 'A. S. (Kãf Hã Yã 'Ayn Sãd). These are the maximum number of initials in the Quran in any Chapter. The aggregate of these five letters K. H. Y. 'A. S. is 19 x 42 (137+175+343+117+26 = 798). 19-Mary: K. H. Y. 'A. S.

Trust that now you have no further reservations for this to appear on the main page as mentioned.

Peace (AlphaOmega19 (talk) 19:39, 27 November 2011 (UTC))

Peace be upon Arthur,

Look forward to your reply, I intend to include the summarized version of the items that I have presented in my previous discussions if you may agree.

Peace, (AlphaOmega19 (talk) 17:17, 5 December 2011 (UTC))

Please hold off on the changes; my finals are this week and next, although I only have one final next week (15 December), and may have time to consider your edits. I still think you are using only one source of questionable reliability. (And I'm not referring to the Koran, itself. It's the interpretations your source is making of it.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:19, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Peace be upon you Arthur,

1. Thanks for your response. However I am happy to strive to continue to try and explain below God willing.

2. Of course I am curious to hear equitably from you on noticing that a statement was inserted on the page about some aspects of the 19 code in the Quran without any discussion, reservation from you representing Wikipedia! Obviously for very good reasons there were no concerns about any interpretations, questionable single source and other concerns raised from time to time on my proposals on the same 19 code in the Quran! ("Some people have claimed that patterns of the number 19 is present an unusual number of times in the Qurʾān."). Could you please equitably explain in detail to me as a newcomer? Thanks.

3. I think that universally accepted Arabic Quran concepts need to be shared with you to facilitate and simplify discussion on the concern now raised by you "only one source of questionable reliability". God willing, you will agree that there are only 2 factual and proven sections of information regarding what i have proposed:

4. To facilitate and simplify discussion on this, God willing, you will agree that there are only 2 factual and proven sections of information regarding what i have proposed :

(A) The first verse of Chapter (Sura) 19 of the Quran – Maryam (Mary) comprises of only 5 letters K. H. Y. 'A. S. (Kãf Hã Yã 'Ayn Sãd) [widely referred to in Arabic as "Muqatta'at" or “Quranic Initials” / unique letter combinations. Only 29 Suras are prefixed with the first verse having these letters]; and Chapter 19 has the maximum number of letters / initials in the Quran in any Chapter and verse.

(B)The aggregate of these five letters K. H. Y. 'A. S. is 19 x 42 (137+175+343+117+26 = 798). 19-Mary: K. H. Y. 'A. S.

5. In brief what I had pointed out to you 21 November 2011 (elaborated below so that it becomes clearer to persons not aware of widely accepted and verifiable Arabic Quran concepts and facts). Can you please show Qurans that do not confirm any part of Facts (A)? Facts (A) are confirmed, among others, by:

(a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqatta%27at Excerpts: " Muqatta'at (Arabic: مُقَطَّعات ) are unique letter combinations that begin certain suras (chapters) of the Qur'an. Muqatta'at literally means abbreviated or shortened. " [or “Quranic Initials”]. "Introduction: In the Arabic language, these letters are written together like a word, but each letter is pronounced separately." Heading: "The complete Muqatta'at letters and their appearance in the Quran" "10. Chapter 19, Maryam: Kāf Hāʾ Yāʾ ʿAin Ṣād " [29 Chapters are listed]

(a1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmaduke_Pickthall which provides external links to on line Quran project containing about 38 English Translations. These prove the contents K.H.Y.’A.S of Sura (Chapter) 19:1.

(a2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranic_Arabic_Corpus (The Quranic Arabic Corpus is an annotated linguistic resource consisting of 77,430 words of Quranic Arabic) http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=19&verse=1 is a resource of the above.

6. For facts in (A): Conclusion for submitted for consideration: Anyone can verify the undisputed facts from all the 29 initialed Chapters for example in (a) (a1) and (a2) above in English and Arabic.

7. For facts in (B) The source of the Mathematical verification link provided for Sura 19 http://www.19miracle.org/math-miracle-of-quran/19-mary-k-h-y-a-s/ is from "Arabic text is from an external source: tanzil.net". http://tanzil.net/wiki/ : "Compatibility: Our Uthmani Quran text is completely matching the Medina Mushaf." ["The Medina Mushaf (officially: Mushaf al-Madinah an-Nabawiyyah, Arabic: مصحف المدينة النبوية) is an authentic copy of the holy quran printed by King Fahad Complex for Printing of the Holy Quran"]

8. Could you please explain: (i) despite showing you numerous independent and verifiable facts after you had concluded by saying on 12th November " ... may be notable enough to have the notes with "according to United Submitters International".... ", what is your present stand and why? (ii) what reservations you have against the above standard Quran given to millions of people by Saudi authorities after Hajj? (iii) whether you would like to independently verify the soft copy of Sura 19 of the Arabic Quran by directly downloading from the widely accepted Tanzil - which has sourced it from the Saudi Press ? Or directly from the Saudi King Fahad Complex for Printing of the Holy Quran? (iv) If so - would you like to use Microsoft Excel or write your own tool? (v) why all the various reservations, concerns etc. from time to time did not apply for the events and situations in 2 above?

God willing, look forward to hearing in detail from you. Thanks

(AlphaOmega19 (talk) 18:06, 8 December 2011 (UTC))

Peace by upon you Arthur,

Trust your exams went well. If you allow me I can assist you with some simple tools on MS Excel that should help you verify for yourself the facts that I God Willing intend presenting, it is basically copying the Arabic Quran data from widely used websites like http://tanzil.net/, pasting it as unicode and asking MS Excel to return the counts with the help of find and replace options. If you let me have an email address of yours that your are comfortable with to share I can send that sheet to you. My ID is "1alphaomega9@gmail.com".

Peace (AlphaOmega19 (talk) 14:24, 16 December 2011 (UTC))

Peace be upon you Arthur,

1. As there is no reply from you since 6th Dec. 2011, I presume that you have had time to also consider & accept the facts furnished on 8th & reminded on16th December (with offer of additional assistance to you for verification).

2. I am aware of the March 2010 Wikipedia warning on the article / page regarding its having excessive, poor and irrelevant examples, and a request to improve the article by adding more descriptive text and removing less pertinent examples. I have therefore put in my best efforts in condensing the proposed important facts which are at the end of this post (with updated descriptive text & links).

3. Just in case Wikipedia or you still have any reservations or unclear matters starting with the 1st issue raised on 9th November, I have consolidated and updated most of the points and thus simplified my submissions to you for the numerous points raised by you thereafter. Please therefore consider that:

(a) The information and facts presented here are (i) very relevant to the number 19; (ii) are not a matter of interpretation, issues or view points; (iii) merely objective data from the Quran and can be easily verified by majority of the people and of interest for researchers and others – Muslim (Submitters to God) or not; (iv) also based on links etc., additionally presented (in response to your valid concerns) which are based on independent, verifiable, reliable, undisputed Quran data, reference texts commonly accepted by those in control of web sites and / or Quran printings etc. of Sunnis and Shias too, and widely used by “mainstream” or other Muslims worldwide; [Shias’ acceptance Tanzil,net Quran data can be verified from paragraph 3 (b) below];

(b) The “mainstream” Shia Sect (in Iraq, Iran, some Arab States, South Asia etc.,) are also using the King Fahd (Sunni) based Tanzil.net resources Quran.net which confirm the extraordinary Mathematical Structure in Quran based on number 19 – http://quran.al-islam.org/ an effort of the Ahlul Bayt Digital Islamic Library Project http://www.alislam.org/search.php?selected_tab=browse&having=1031832&cat=0&sid=598615064 http://www.al-islam.org/index.php?sid=909639464&=176&cat=176 http://chnm.gmu.edu/worldhistorysources/d/93.html

(c) furthermore to my knowledge, none of the sources referred to in 3 (a) (iv) & 3 (b) above have not produced any contrary verifiable evidence nor have they have expressed on their sites any oppositions which may cause you concerns against the clear points presented below of Mathematical Structure in Quran based on number 19;

(d ) the silent and quiet majority of users of this page (presently or in the near future) would not have any logical reasons nor be barred by any prohibitions, threats etc. against individually verifying and agreeing with the incontrovertible facts about extraordinary Mathematical Structure in Quran based on number 19. This is particularly so when just a few years ago it is obvious that this Mathematical Structure of the Quran received wide agreement, publicly, acceptance and proclamations by those in "control" of the majority those believing the Quran as the word of God – thus inviting any users of independent and undisputed Quran data etc. to individually verify and agree / accept the same based on the above quoted sources. [For example, Deedat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_deedat referred to Dr. Khalifa as a great servant of Islam few years ago for the same proven facts., http://ebookbrowse.com/al-quran-the-ultimate-miracle-by-ahmed-deedat-photocopy-pdf-d40096557]. In fact, Muslims with modern minds would logically be more curious to verify / investigate if anything / person has been prohibited;

(e ) virtually anyone can verify the 19 based structure from sources referred to in 3 (a) (iv) & 3 (b)above for the items that I have presented below for the main article. A small & simple illustration – Wikipedia / you may not find a single Quran (which is agreed by Muslims as the word of God), which does not consists of 114 suras (e.g. http://tanzil.net/#114:1), which is 19 x 6, does not have 114 Basmalah (Opening statement) despite it being absent in Sura 9 and does not have 19 Suras between the missing Basmalah and the additional Basmalah in Sura 27, and does not have the total of Sura Numbers from 9 to 27 adding up to a 19 multiple (being the 1st 3 points of the points presented below).

4. I trust that you and Wikipedia have equitably applied good logic, judgment, thoughtfulness, common sense and consideration to accept that the Mathematical Structure in Quran based on number 19 – as presented in some examples herein & in the proposed presentation below - is very much relevant to this article of Wikipedia. I therefore God willing intend to add the following paragraph in the Islam section that could make available some simple 19 based undisputable facts in the Quran.

5. According to / as presented by and based on data from United Submitters International, http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix1verify.html , http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix15.html http://www.19miracle.org/ and additional independent sources such as:

(a) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran [please see 3rd sentence – confirming 114 Suras (Chapters).

(c) http://al-quran.info/?x=y#&&sura=24&aya=1&trans=en-marmaduke_pickthall&show=both,quran-uthmani&ver=2.00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmaduke_Pickthall (There are numerous other Quran that can be accessed from that page.

(e) http://tanzil.net/wiki/ : "Compatibility: Our Uthmani Quran text is completely matching the Medina Mushaf." {"The Medina Mushaf (officially: Mushaf al-Madinah an-Nabawiyyah, Arabic: مصحف المدينة النبوية) is an authentic copy of the holy quran printed by King Fahad Complex for Printing of the Holy Quran"}. The link below would prove that the above referred Tanzil.net is very widely used: http://tanzil.net/wiki/Who_is_using_Tanzil%3F

(f) Shia source: http://www.al-islam.org/alpha.php, http://quran.al-islam.org/ an effort of the Ahlul Bayt Digital Islamic Library Project http://www.al-islam.org/search.php?selected_tab=browse&having=1031832&cat=0&sid=598615064 http://www.al-islam.org/index.php?sid=909639464&=176&cat=176 http://chnm.gmu.edu/worldhistorysources/d/93.html

(1)There are 114=19x6 Suras (Chapters) in the Quran; (2) Basmalah occurs 114=19x6 times in spite of its absence in Sura 9 ; (3) from missing Basmalah of Sura 9 to extra Basmalah of Sura 27 there are 19 Suras; (4) the total Sura Numbers from 9 to 27 add up to 342 = 19x18; (5) The first revelation Sura 96 (1-5) of five verses of Sura 96 has 19 words; (6) These 19 words of first revelation of Sura 96 consists 76 = 19x4 letters; (7) Sura 96 has 19 verses; (8) This first chronological sura is place atop the last 19 Suras; (9) Sura 96 consists 304=19x16 letters; (10) The last revelation Sura 110 consists 19 words, (11) The first verse of the last revelation (110:1) consists 19 letters; (12) 14 Arabic letters with 14 different sets of Quranic initials that prefix 29 Suras add up to 14+14x29=57=19x3; (13) The total of 29 Sura numbers where the Quranic initials occur with the 14 sets add up to 836=19x44; (14) between first initialed Sura 2 and the last initialed Sura 68 there are 38=19x2 un-initialed Suras; (15) between the first and last initialed sura there are19 sets of alternating “initialed” and “uninitialed” suras; (16) The sum of all numbers mentioned in the Quran add up to 162146=19x8534; (17) While reciting “The Key” the first Sura lips touch 19 times at letters “B” and “M”; (18) the total gematrical values of these “B” and “M” add up to 608 = 19x32 times.

If there are no further concerns on the above God Willing I shall be uploading these in another 48 hours time.

Peace (AlphaOmega19 (talk) 20:09, 24 December 2011 (UTC))

Some of the statements are notable and may be sourced. However, 19xx numbers should not appear in this article. Among items (1)-(17), there are no statements of any significance to the number 19. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:50, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Peace be upon you Arthur, Thanks for you quick reply. The world’s largest question and answer site clearly shows the most widely accepted significance of number 19 in Quran,

Yahoo Answers also includes a similar article.

It appears that your suggestion is not to display on the page any # that is a multiple of 19 i.e. where 19 is a factor, and the fact that obviously there has never been any objections etc. to the first statement under the heading of Baha’i faith concluding with the phrase using a # that is 19x >> a 361-year (19x19) supercycle. <<, God willing would like to propose following:

Quran is characterized by an extraordinary 19 based Mathematical phenomenon. Patterns such as the (1) Number of letters in the first verse of the Quran known as Basmallah: (2) Number of Suras (Chapters) in the Quran; (3) Number of Basmallah in spite of its absence in Sura 9; (4) Number of chapters from missing Basmallah of Sura 9 to extra Basmallah of Sura 27; (5) the total Sura numbers from chapter 9 to 27; (6) The number of words in the first revelation Sura 96 (1-5); (7) Number of letters of first revelation of Sura 96; (8) Number of verses in the first Chapter 96 revealed; (9) Chronological placement of the first revealed chapter 110 ; (10) total number of letters in the first revealed chapter; (11) Number of words in the last revealed Sura 110, (12) Number of letters in the first verse (110:1) of the last revelation; (13) number of Arabic letters and number of different sets of Quranic initials that prefix 29 Suras; (14) Number of chapters and number of initial sets; (15) number un-initialled chapters between initialled chapters; (16) number of sets of initialled and un-initialled chapters between the first and last initialled Sura (17) Sum of all the numbers mentioned in the Quran; (18) Number of times lips touching while reciting “The Key” the first Sura; (19) The total of Arabic letters “B” and “M” where the lips touch and many more occur in multiples of 19 throughout the Quran.

This way we have descriptive paragraph about a structure in Quran that is based on 19, I believe you will have no further objection on the above and look forward to your reply and in case there is no reply I will God Willing presume that this is acceptable and can appear on the article in Islam section.

Peace (AlphaOmega19 (talk) 15:52, 26 December 2011 (UTC))

Peace again,

Please inform what reservation, if any, Wikipedia and you have about showing the subjects below taught obviously to “Mainstream” Muslims and even non-Muslims within Islamic History (in a Secular Country and State giving due Constitutional recognition to various religions). I would have no objection to putting the content under a new heading – perhaps “Islamic History Education” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kerala shows population 33 million 2011)

http://www.universityofcalicut.info/syl/Islamic.pdf (Module VI page 13 & 14).

(14) - THE WORD "NAME" and NUMBER 19, (15) - THE WORD "GOD" and 19, (26) - SURAS THAT HAVE INITIAL LETTERS AND 19, (27) - THE SURA YASIN SURA AND 19, (28) - THE SURA “MARY” and NUMBER 19, (31) - THE INTRODUCTORY LETTER “QAF”, THE QURAN and 19, (34) - THE WORD “QURAN” and NUMBER 19, (35) - THE INITIAL LETTER “HA-MEEM” and 19, (37) - THE 19TH SURA FROM THE END:THE HANGING, (39) - SIGN, EVIDENCE, WORD and 19, (40) - 19, Relationship Between God and the Human beings.

(AlphaOmega19 (talk) 19:15, 26 December 2011 (UTC))

Peace upon Arthur,

Further to my posts of 15:52, 26 December 2011 (UTC) and 19:15, 26 December 2011 (UTC) I God Willing, will be uploading the proposals as made on the main page in another 36 hours.

Peace

(AlphaOmega19 (talk) 17:22, 27 December 2011 (UTC))

Peace, Trust you have no further objections God Willing on my uploading of the article on the main page.

Peace (AlphaOmega19 (talk) 07:48, 28 December 2011 (UTC))

## In all Scriptural Languages word One has Gematrical Value of 19.

God Willing few more on Number 19 in the Quran.

The gematrical value of the word “ONE” in all the scriptural languages—Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic. The number 19, therefore, proclaims the First Commandment in all the scriptures: that there is only ONE God. As shown in Table 7, the Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic alphabets used to double as numerals in accordance with a universally established system. The Hebrew word for “ONE” is “VAHD” (pronounced V-AHAD). In Arabic, the word for “ONE” is “WAHD” (pronounced WAAHED).

AlphaOmega19 (talk) 13:35, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

You mean Hebrew ואחד Arabic واحد . You're kind of cheating a little with the Hebrew, since the "w" in Hebrew is the word for "and", so the Hebrew form means "and one" (not just one). In any case, Christians also consider Greek to be a scriptural language... AnonMoos (talk) 20:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

AlphaOmega 19 - 12 Nov 2011

I had only reproduced the work of Dr. Khalifa further supported by Raymond A. Klesc the author of this article http://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/sp/1999/oct/page2.html, http://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/sp/1999/oct/page3.html.

I have no intentions of cheating and would welcome your research on the subject and would like to know your opinion on the following statement made by this gentleman in point 3 of the article http://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/sp/1999/oct/page2.html

"Nineteen looks the same in Semitic and European languages. Both components, 1 and 9, are the only numerals that look the same in these languages."

AlphaOmega19 (talk) 04:52, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I really don't know what that means -- the Proto-Indo-European word for "nine" was something like *newn (with syllabic final "n"), while the Proto-Semitic word for "nine" was something like *tišʕu (where ʕ is a voiced pharyngeal sound of a type which does not occur in Indo-European languages). The words in the various daughter languages manifest this basic difference. If any number words are compared between Semitic and Proto-Indo-European, it's usually those for "six" and/or "seven"... AnonMoos (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Understand your view on the pronunciation, but the issue here is the similarity between these languages wherein numerals 1 and 9 look similar. The other point that I missed replying to AnonMoos concern about the letter ‘v’ of ‘vahd’ in Hebrew, it is same in Arabic also no wonder why words in Arabic are borrowed from Hebrew http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language . In Arabic also ‘ w=و ’ the first letter of ‘Waahed’ which also means ‘and’, while ‘echadh’ of Hebrew is same as ‘ahad’ in Arabic. It depends on the context both ‘ahad’ and ‘waahed’ are used in Arabic depending on the usage, however when referring to number one it is referred as ‘Waahed’ a word with ‘w’. http://translate.google.com/#en%7Car%7C

On Google translation you may enter ‘ahad’ and ‘waahed’ for Arabic to convert it to English the answer is still ONE in either cases and if you were to do the same by typing ONE in English and convert to Hebrew one of the answers is אחדת. This way it not only proves the connection between the 2 languages but at the same time support that the numerical value for ‘VAHD’ in Hebrew and ‘WAHD’ are 19. http://translate.google.com/#en%7Ciw%7Cone http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Numeric_Values/numeric_values.html (AlphaOmega19 (talk) 09:17, 13 November 2011 (UTC))

Re: newn vs. tišʕu -- if you don't mean pronunciation, then I really don't know what you mean, and you need to clarify your meaning before you can expect to get this into the article.
Re: Hebrew ואחד Arabic واحد -- they're really not the same. The Hebrew language underwent a change of sounds according to which "w" at the beginning of a word became "y". That's why if you look in a Biblical Hebrew dictionary, you'll see hardly any words beginning with "w-", except for the basic monoconsonantal conjunction (which escaped the sound change) and a few foreign-language names. The consonantal root of Arabic واحد is w-ħ-d, which by sounds corresponds with Hebrew root y-ħ-d. The Hebrew root y-ħ-d shows up in a few words, generally meaning "together, community", but the Hebrew word meaning "one" derives from a root ʔ-ħ-d (i.e. glottal stop + voiceless pharyngeal + voiced dental stop). The Hebrew consonantal root ʔ-ħ-d is obviously related in some way with root y-ħ-d, but the overall conclusion is the same as before -- the "w" in ואחד is the conjunction prefix (not part of the root), and therefore the meaning is "and one" (or sometimes "but one"), not just "one"... AnonMoos (talk)