Talk:2007–08 Arsenal F.C. season
|2007–08 Arsenal F.C. season has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: September 9, 2013. ( ).
|WikiProject Football||(Rated GA-class, Low-importance)|
- 1 Scorers
- 2 Contract ended
- 3 Standard date format
- 4 Manual of Style for club season articles
- 5 Copyright Legislation?
- 6 Pictures
- 7 Squad information order
- 8 Improvements on Players in, out and information tables
- 9 Nominal transfer fee
- 10 Line-Ups
- 11 Dead link
- 12 Dead link 2
- 13 Dead link 3
- 14 Dead link 4
- 15 File:Arsene-Wenger.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion
- 16 GA Review
I don't think the scorers column need a , since the column is just for scorers. Also, it's for the team's scorers, not for the opponent team's scorers.--ClaudioMB 14:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Should "End of contract" in transfers not be "Bosman" as they all left on the bosman ruling. 19.46, 25 August 2007, The German Flower Pot
- I don't think "Bosman" term is used globally. I'm in North America and the media here never uses that term. Contract ended could be understood by any person in the world with or without football knowledge.--ClaudioMB 02:00, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Standard date format
Manual of Style for club season articles
Just been looking at the edit history and I see that upcoming premier league fixtures were removed because of "copyright legislation". Can I Just ask what this is? Arrowny (talk) 19:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
- The upcoming premier league fixtures were consider intellectual property of Premier League by a judge in England. It's necessary authorization (buy) from them. --ClaudioMB (talk) 15:47, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest using some pictures in this article to break the only-text style. Adding images is consider essential by Wikipedia, as stated on Wikipedia:Featured article criteria. I suggest no more than one picture per section and the picture to be about something relevant to that section.--ClaudioMB (talk) 04:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Squad information order
Could we order the Squad information in the same way as Squad stats? That's mean, by importance for this season: first the starting 11, then those not in the starting 11 and finally the youths. Maybe this not commonly used, but this makes easier for the readers that mostly want to look the top players. By number, or position, or anything else, anyone could just sort the table.--ClaudioMB (talk) 03:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've reorganised the table in the same way as the squad stats (starting 11 from right back to front left, the rest of first team squad from right back to front left, then the youth). Spiritofsussex (talk) 18:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've changed the order to go by player number, as on Arsenal's official website. Such statistics should be ordered by player number, alphabetical by last name, or grouped by position. The current order is pointless and disorganized in terms of stats for the full season. "Most often used" in a position does not even indicate the "top players" as suggested by Claudio above. Tomas Rosicky and Robin van Persie are obviously Arsenal's first-choice players for left midfield and a forward, respectively - they started over Eboue and Eduardo everytime when fit, perhaps with the exception of getting a rest (like van Persie v Derby County), but did not make as many appearances due to injuries. Furthermore, it complicates the issue of players playing in more than one position. Robin van Persie started more games as a forward than Eduardo, who was used as a left winger several times. Everytime Rosicky started a match, he started at left midfield while Alex Hleb would play right midfield or behind a lone striker. Slow Graffiti (talk) 17:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree with ordering by players' numbers because they are basically irrelevant. Also, the table is sortable then anyone who like to see ordered by numbers could just click on it. It's more relevant to order by the most frequent starting 11 since they were the most important players in this season (important players that got injured, like v. Persie, were not less important for this season than those who actually played more in this season). Slow Graffiti, I respect your view, put at this moment, myself and Spiritofsussex prefer that order. If in the future more editor agree with you, I don't see any problem to change this order. Regards. --ClaudioMB (talk) 19:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- P.S. I reordered by Starting 11 then appearances. --ClaudioMB (talk) 16:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
- You can't argue that number of starting appearances correlates directly to "most important." That is subjective - not objective.
- You also don't provide a response to my statement "Furthermore, it complicates the issue of players playing in more than one position. Robin van Persie started more games as a forward than Eduardo, who was used as a left winger several times." If you want to list players by number of total starts without regards to position, do that. If you want to list players by number of times they started in a particular position, do that. However, it does not make sense to mix the two, listing players by number of total starts but in order of filling the positions they most often play. This also applies to your 'Starting 11' section after the player tables, which only takes into account total starts, not total starts at the indicated position. Van Persie started 20 games; Eduardo started 22 games. But van Persie started more games than Eduardo in the forward position, so van Persie should be listed as the other forward in the top 11 (next to Adebayor). If memory serves, Nicklas Bendtner actually started more games at forward (all 17 of his starts) as well.
- Have you given thought to the other option I provided? Breaking the table up by position and then ordering by starts (or appearances) - I think this would provide a clearer display of what you're going for. This would solve the issue of the rest of the table. I don't think a shift in order criteria in the middle of a table is appropriate - 'Total starts to fill out a possible starting 11' then 'Total appearances.' Also, that particular shift begs the question. Why base the first 11 on starts, then the rest on appearances? Why not starts, then starts? Or appearances/appearances? - Slow Graffiti (talk) 19:16, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Improvements on Players in, out and information tables
Nominal transfer fee
- A nominal transfer fee is one that is "insignificantly small" (http://www.answers.com/nominal&r=67). --Spiritofsussex (talk) 08:13, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
How far is this article going to go in terms of detail? I was just wondering if it would be a good idea to include the starting line-up for each match, who was on the bench and who came on as a substitute. Quincy042 (talk) 15:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- That could be too much for this article. As is now, with scorers and cards, it's already a hard work to keep it updated.--ClaudioMB (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
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File:Arsene-Wenger.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion
|An image used in this article, File:Arsene-Wenger.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations
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- This review is transcluded from Talk:2007–08 Arsenal F.C. season/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
- Is it reasonably well written?
- Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
- Is it broad in its coverage?
- Is it neutral?
- Fair representation without bias:
- Is it stable?
- No edit wars, etc:
- Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
- Pass or Fail:
- @Lemonade51: As with most other GA reviewed Arsenal F.C. season articles, like 1996–97 Arsenal F.C. season, I would expect to see a reference for the first sentence.
- The sentence "After finishing fourth the previous season, Arsenal sold striker and club record goalscorer Thierry Henry to Barcelona, in the transfer window", feels like that Henry left due to the club finishing fourth- if so, I'd would like to see a reference for this, since this could be debatable as to whether it was due to Arsenal coming fourth. If it wasn't maybe, you could shift the fact that they came fourth into another sentence about their previous season or something.
- Removed the bit about Arsenal finishing fourth as it had no bearing on Henry's depature. He supposedly wanted to leave the season before, but Wenger felt he needed to stay and oversee the club's move to the new stadium.
- You might like to include a separate source in the sentence "After a protracted transfer saga, Ashley Cole joined Chelsea on the final day of the summer transfer window, in exchange for £5m and defender William Gallas" as the source's only statement about there being a "protracted transfer saga" is the sentence "but disagreements over the transfer fee stalled the move".
- Replaced protracted transfer saga with a quoted "tortuous saga", cited from a Guardian report.
- Could you also reference "Defender Matthew Connolly, who joined Colchester United on loan for a six-month period signed for Queens Park Rangers once the deal expired". The pre season reports for Arsenal's Austrian Tour do not sate who was the referee and when all the other reports state the full name of the referee, the match against Barnet only states his first name as an inital and then his last name.
- Referenced the Connolly bit. The referees for the Austrian Tour are not given on the Arsenal website for some reason and I couldn't find them on any newspaper archives. Given these were pre-season fixtures, I'm guessing they were amateur referees. Used full name for the Barnet ref.
- Also, the sentence "Cristiano Ronaldo appeared to have scored the winner, eight minutes from the end," appears to me, to state that he had scored what had seemed to be a goal, but missed or something, so I might reword it like "Cristiano Ronaldo scored what was thought to be the winning goal, eight minutes from the end". Anyway, if you have a better idea for the sentence, go with it!
- Reworded to your suggestion as I believe it flows well.
- The rest of the season report seems fine. I selected a few random match reports to check, and they all seem consistent in terms of the use of stadium, attendance and referee.
- Could you also reference "Arsenal started their campaign in good stead, beating Sevilla by three goals to nil and followed the result with a 1–0 victory against Steaua Bucureşti" as the rest of the match results in the prose style are referenced. The references are suitably described via Citeweb.
- Cited both matches with their respective reports.
Hi, Figureskatingfan/Christine here. I'm mentoring Jcc, so I hope you don't mind the extra feedback. As I told him here , I went ahead and divided up his feedback into bullet points, to make it easier for all. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:38, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking up the review. Believe I have made the chances as suggested. Lemonade51 (talk) 23:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- What is a "long ball knockdown"?
- "However, moments after Touré was adjudged to have fouled Ryan Babel and conceded a penalty kick"- you haven't mentioned Touré before in this paragraph, so I think you should use his full name.
- Used his full name.
All is well with the use of Citeweb, although in my opinion, there is an awful lot of relying on BBC Sports to save the day.
Comparing it with other Arsenal season articles, this seems to cover the same sections as them, and isn't too extensive. It is neutral and also stable, although like all Football articles have its fair share of a tad bit of vandalism (correction per Figureskatingfan- have had its fair share of vandalism, which implies that while it has been vandalised in the past, like many other sports article, due to the fierce rivalry in sports between teams, the vandalism has been reverted. I apologise if you mistook this as meaning that the article currently has vandalism on it that hasn't been reverted) .
- You could add an image of one of the players that left Arsenal that season.
- There is a lack of images from the UEFA Champions League section onwards.
- Hard to find any Arsenal related images with the appropriate licenses. Have added a picture of Henry and a Champions League match between Arsenal and Sevilla.
@Lemonade51:Thought you should be aware of Figureskatingfan's feedback at Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Recruitment Centre/Recruiter Central/Archives/Jcc#Step four: Second review!
As per Lemonade51's request, I'm doing a more thorough prose review, looking for in-universe, in-group, newsy, and peacock-y language that I as an outsider (translation: non-football fan) am better able to spot. I tend to copy-edit as I go, and if I have any questions, I put there here. I also tend to look at the lead last, after I'm familiar with the content of the article. Here goes! ;)
- The previous season marked a transitional period for Arsenal. As is true with many sports articles, this one suffers from sounding too much like a newspaper article at times. The word "marked" is a big indication of it happening here. I recommend that you keep your language simple: in this case, just replace the work "marked" with "was". I know this is picky, but it illustrates my point.
- The club sold a string of key players... This is a perfect example of the in-group language I speak of. I, as a non-football fan, have no idea what this means. What do you mean by a club selling players? Are we talking modern slavery here? Yes, I'm being ridiculous, but I hope you understand my point. Please explain; I can help if you need it.
- Sold in the sense of Transfer (association football).
- Ok, so sometimes you can't avoid the in-group language. I went ahead and added the link the first time it's mentioned.
- After a "tortuous saga", Ashley Cole joined Chelsea on the final day of the summer transfer window, in exchange for £5m and defender William Gallas. More of the same in-speak: "joined", "summer transfer window". Also, I know that the previous reviewer suggested that you quote "tortuous saga", partially due to my direction, but it's newsy and I don't know what it means. I suggest that you re-word it.
- ...drew their season opener against Aston Villa. More in-speak. I assume you mean that they played their first game against this team. If so, say that! ;)
- They did however reach the final of the League Cup despite fielding a young and inexperienced team throughout the competition... Unclear wording; I assume you meant that Arsenal was young and inexperienced? If so, how about: "However, even though they were a young and inexperienced team, they reached the final of the League Cup."
- Exits in the UEFA Champions League in the knockout stage and FA Cup in the space of four days followed... Again, no comprehendo. What's an "exit" and the "knockout stage"? Please explain for me.
- Thanks, have made amendments. Just to add, it is uncommon practise to see British football teams with the definite article when adhering to British English. Therefore,
TheBolton Wanderers. There is a better explanation here of why. Of course, this does not apply to nicknames (The Reds, The Blues, etc) and funnily enough Arsenal's full name is 'The Arsenal', though the definite has been dropped for decades in colloquial use. Lemonade51 (talk) 13:39, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm writing this after the below, before I save: Much of what I ask is that you explain the sport a little to me. I understand that your purpose here isn't to do that, so some specialised vocabulary is unavoidable. I am asking, however, that you add a little bit of explanation so it's not completely incomprehensible to the non-football fan. As an expert, I trust that you'll know when you can and cannot do this.
- Again, you need to explain what you mean by the players being sold. What is a "free transfer"? What does "fringe players" mean? And "on loan", about Connolly? And "first signing", about Fabiański?
- Fringe players in the sense that they made up numbers, weren't necessarily going to play for Arsenal on a regular basis. Reworded as 'other players'; have wikilinked Loan (sports) and rephrased "first signing".
- Lassana Diarra was purchased on transfer deadline day from Chelsea, but the player's frustration at a lack of playing time meant he was transferred to Portsmouth in January. More of the same, but I'd like some clarification here. Are you saying that Diarra didn't think he was going play enough, so he transferred to Portsmouth?
- What was Lehmann's mistake? If the sources don't tell you, don't tell us, but if they do, please include the info.
- ...ensured the team snatched victory. Another perfect example of the above, exactly the kind of language used in a sports newspaper article, not in an encyclopedia. How about: "...resulted in the team winning the match".
- The result was followed with a "fluent attacking display" at home to Portsmouth on the first day of September. I have no idea what this means; please clarify. Actually, please look at this and the following three sentences (everything supported by ref 42), for the same reason.
- Clarified it was The Guardian newspaper who described the Portsmouth performance as such. Tried to tidy up the Tottenham summary; stoppage time is additional time in a match – it can be called injury time, or added time but for consistency reasons I've used stoppage throughout the article.
- ...Arsenal began to dominate possession, eventually rewarded for their patient play, when Fábregas equalised in the 80th minute, from a Hleb through ball. Please explain "patient play" and "a Hleb through ball".
- A stylish win against Reading at the Madjeski Stadium on 12 November 2007, was notable as Adebayor scored Arsenal's 1,000th Premier League goal. "A stylish goal" and "notable" are peacocky; please re-word to remove bias here.
- "Five points clear"; "three points clear": Please clarify, har-har. ;)
- For much of the season, they were in first position in the league table and a certain number of points clear of Manchester United.
- The team drew at Newcastle United four days after... What does "drew" mean?
- Drew, the past tense form of 'draw', in the sense of two teams tying a match. I think is perfectly acceptable in British English, but have rephrased.
- Arsenal recovered to beat Chelsea 1–0 on 16 December 2007 and required a goal... Re-word, please: "recovered" and "required a goal".
- ... a win against Everton helped the club leapfrog Manchester United at the top. Re-word; "leapfrog" isn't encyclopedic. Is this what you mean: " a win against Everton helped the club move past Manchester United to the first-place spot."
- ...but a comfortable 3–0 victory at Fulham meant Arsenal stayed level at the top of the table. Needs re-wording. If I'm accurate, how about: "but a 3–0 victory at Fulham meant that Arsenal retained their first-place status."
- With Manchester United losing to Manchester City the following week, a 2–0 win at home to Blackburn Rovers moved Arsenal five points clear, with 12 matches to play. Again, it's best (although not technically incorrect) to start sentences with a conjunction. I'd just go ahead and re-word myself, but I can't without knowing what "moved Arsenal five points clear" means.
- ...of Manchester United in the league table, which I have now cleared up. Teams in the Premier League are ranked by total points obtained.
- The team then faced Birmingham City at St Andrew's; shortly after kick-off, defender Martin Taylor was sent off for a tackle on Eduardo, which left him in prostrate and ruled out for the rest of the season. Please explain: "sent off for a tackle on Eduardo", "left him in prostrate and ruled out".
- Gah, not sure why I wrote 'prostrate'. This is a discombobulated sentence and have rephrased.
- In stoppage time, Gaël Clichy was penalised for bringing down Stuart Parnaby... "Bringing down"?
- It prompted Gallas to attack an advertising board, before sitting distraught on the pitch. Huh? You link "advertising board", but please briefly explain. And I have no idea what "sitting distraught on the pitch" means.
- Tried to be more explicit: Gallas threw a tantrum after the game, such was his anger at the team conceding a late goal to draw the match. He kicked the advertising board that lay on the side of the pitch and sat down on the pitch alone, while his teammates were heading for the tunnel.
- At the Reebok Stadium on 29 March 2008, Arsenal conceded two goals in the first half, both scored by Matthew Taylor and went a man down, after Abou Diaby was sent off for a foul on Grétar Steinsson. Please clarify: "conceded two goals", "went a man down", "set off for a foul".
- The team staged a "dramatic" fightback however, scoring the winning goal in stoppage time... I think you can remove some of the peacocky-ness; how about: "The team's "dramatic" comeback however, in the form of a winning goal in stoppage time..."
- Arsenal beat relegation-threatened Reading 2–0 the week after and Adebayor scored a second-half hat-trick against Derby County on 28 April 2008, to become the first player to score three goals in both fixtures, against the same side in a season. This sentence is a bit long and complicated. I think you could put in a full stop after "after". Please clarify: "second-half hat-trick", "both fixtures".
- Removed second-half. Tried to make it clear he scored three goals, home and away against the same team which has never been done before.
First knockout round
- In the first leg, Arsenal were held to a draw at home, with Adebayor spurning a chance to score in injury time, as he headed the ball against the cross bar. Please clarify everything after "Adebayor".
- The quarter-final pitted Arsenal against fellow English club Liverpool... How about: "In the quarter-finals, Arsenal played against..."
- A "flagrantly" unmarked Adebayor opened the scoring with a header from a corner... Could you say that he was the first to score? What does "a header from a corner" mean? And why is it important that Adebayor was "'flagrantly' unmarked"?
- Arsenal spurred a chance to win the game late, had Bendtner managed not to clear Fàbregas' goalbound effort. Again, don't understand this statement at all.
- In the return leg at Anfield, Arsenal made a good start and took a deserved lead when Diaby scored from a tight angle in the 13th minute. Up to now, you've done a pretty good job at not editorialising, another common occurrence in sports articles. Please re-word "good start" and "a deserved lead". And could you say that this happened the second time they played at Anfield this season?
- I could, but I think it is irrelevant. That both teams played each other three times in the space of a week and a half is probably more significant (and rare), hence its mention in the Premier League summary.
- With five minutes remaining of the second half, substitute Walcott used his pace to beat the Liverpool pace from his half, to square the ball for Adebayor to score. Again, please clarify.
- ...Gerrard converted to make the scoreline 4–3 on aggregate. Explain: "converted", "on aggregate".
- Wikilinked aggregate score.
- Fourth-round opponents Sheffield United proved less of an obstacle... How about: "Fourth-round opponents Sheffield United were easier to defeat..."
- In stoppage time, Denilson was sent off for a two-footed challenge on Dunn and in spite of a man disadvantage, Arsenal regained the lead after Eduardo, following good play by Alex Song, held off defender Ryan Nelsen stroke the ball past Friedel. Please clarify and remove some of the football-speak, please.
Whew, that's it. I felt that I needed to be very specific about the insider language; I believe that if you cut back on it and used more accessible language, the prose would greatly improve and be much clearer. Thanks for your openness to my suggestions. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:04, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- Brilliant, thanks for the through review. I believe I have addressed all your suggestions and left a few more comments below certain points for clarity. Lemonade51 (talk) 20:39, 3 September 2013 (UTC)