Talk:2008

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James Bevel[edit]

The removal of James Bevel from the death list (December 19) seems to uncover a hole in the listings-system. Bevel, the strategist and architect of the 1960s Civil Rights Movement, called "the Father of Voting Rights", and half of the Bevel/King first-tier team that planned, organized, and ran the movement, obviously deserves a spot in the death listings of the year he passed. His prominence in American and world history compares with the likes of Adams, Jefferson, Lincoln, King, and Washington. Because his work has found underreporting in both his home country and in other countries, he has not received the now-required number of languages to qualify for this list.

This can be taken as a formal request to make an exemption in Bevel's case, or to review the policy as regards to such major personages who fall into a rare but real category: Historically major figures not well known. Bevel would, IMHO, lead this list. As a Civil Rights historian who has worked on researching and writing about his historic contributions since 1983, I've felt very much like Jeff Clark at Maverick's. But neither Bevel nor Maverick's deserve removal from Wikipedia, no matter how unknown or how incredible-seeming their existence.

I don't know the proper channels to go through, so I'll add Bevel's name once more and see if discussion can become generated. Thanks, Randy Kryn —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randy Kryn (talkcontribs) 18:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I am not sure I follow why he should be listed in the international page, no doubt, he probably deserves to be listed in 2008 in the United States, but outside the US he was mostly unknown. If I understand correctly, he was
  • Architect of the 1960s Civil Rights Movement, (in the US).
  • called "the Father of Voting Rights", (again, only in the US).
Both those events had little or no impact on the rest of the world, for example what did he do for South Africa during the apartheid?
You also mention under-reporting, but I doubt that listing him here will help in that regard.
If editors around the world don't know him well enough to create an article in their respective languages, then maybe he is not notable enough outside the US. I don't think he should be listed because he was a great activist in on country. FFMG (talk) 19:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

"Both of those events had little or no impact on the rest of the world"--the 1960s Civil Rights Movement and the Voting Rights Movement? The worldwide women's movement; the focus on the situation in South Africa which suddenly seemed archaic; the freedom movement for Australian aborigines; the emerging gay movement; the spread of the success of the tactics of nonviolence--used in Eastern Europe in the mid-to-late 1980s; the first successful uses of Mohandas Gandhi's techniques outside of India; these and many more events and emerging freedoms came almost directly from the successes that James Bevel and Dr. King (on the first-tier of their movement) accomplished. The Mississippi and Selma Voting Rights Movements--other Bevel creations--bore their freshest fruit in November of last year when Barack Obama became America's first Afro-American presidednt, an event attributed by many historians and commentators to the Selma Voting Rights Movement of 1965. Obama's impact on the rest of the world flows across the planet daily. Thank you for your comments, and I ask anyone who knows how to do so to pass along my request for an exemption for the inclusion of James Bevel in this article. (I did take your advice and listed him in 2008 in the United States. Thank you) Randy Kryn —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randy Kryn (talkcontribs) 21:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

None of the events you have listed seem to have anything to do with him,
  • The voting right movement was in Mississippi, not international.
  • What "worldwide women's movement" are you referring to? how was he involved?
  • Where/when was he involved with aborigines?
  • What do you mean, "...the focus on the situation in South Africa which suddenly seemed archaic;"?, When was he ever involved with South Africa?
  • From what I can see, the closest he ever was to Gandhi was by ready his book when he was younger, he certainly was not the first to use any of his techniques.
  • Even if he remotely had anything to do with Obama, (and I really fail to see the link), this is still a US mater, not international.
  • And, ..."Obama's impact on the rest of the world flows across the planet daily.", really??
Even the English article about him does not mention any of the events you are trying to attribute to him. He was just an activist in the US with little or not international impact. Either that or even the English article about him is out of date. FFMG (talk) 05:52, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

To FFMG. My answer to you concerned your comment that the 1960s Civil Rights Movement and the U.S. Voting Rights Movement "had little impact on the rest of the world". My point: the application and success of the CRMovement in the U.S. inspired people worldwide to work within nonviolence for their own rights. The tactics used by Gandhi, and brought forward in the U.S. by mainly Dr. King and James Bevel (the first replication of Gandhi's use of nonviolence as well as a practical in-the-field adding to his findings of "why and how nonviolence works"), found use within the other events I mentioned. It may seem now as if all of these events occurred separate from each other and without a link, but look at the timeline and the writings of the major personalities in each of them, and the importance of the '60s Civil Rights Movement becomes clear. The main Voting Rights Movement occurred in Selma, Alabama, in 1965--a movement which built of the Alabama Project started in 1963 by Bevel and his wife at the time, Diane Nash--and has grown in influence yearly if not daily, both in the U.S. and worldwide. In any case, I wrote the comment to you to point out the very large international impact of the movements in which Bevel and King played the key roles, and not to infer that Bevel had an active role to play in the further activities. (A couple of quick replies: Bevel did become the first to use Gandhi's techniques after Gandhi's death in order to gain major social change; although Bevel did know Obama, the link to I referred to concerns the success of the Selma Voting Rights Movement which even Obama says emerged as a critical step to his eventual election). Randy Kryn, July 2, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randy Kryn (talkcontribs) 23:46, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry, I still don't see how he was internationally involved. Even in the US, (_from what I can tell_), he seem to have had little or no impact, (apart for 2 marches in the 60s and been one of Kings counsel). Of course, he was an activist in his community, but just not an international activist.
I see no references to justify any of the, somewhat inflated, claims that he had such an impact, (on a daily basis), in the international community.
I also cannot find any link between him using any of Gandhi's tactics, let alone been the first one to do so. And even if he did, I fail to see how that would make him an international icon. And finally the fact that he might have known King and/or Obama is nothing more than anecdotal and does not make him an international figure in any way.
And, your statement "...in the U.S. inspired people worldwide to work within nonviolence for their own rights." is also not true at all an over simplifies the entire movement to give credit to the US. But that's another discussion altogether.
I think that this discussion should be on his talk page rather than here, like I said earlier, most of the comments you added here are not even on his English article and simply cannot be verified.
So personally I cannot see why we should change the rule for him, he had no international impact, and that's probably the reason why there are so few non-English articles. FFMG (talk) 06:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

"Two marches in the '60s", OK, I'll try again, and not including Bevel really does show a major hole in the system. James Bevel, as Director of Direct Action and Director of Nonviolent Education of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference: Initiated, planned, organized and directed the 1963 Birmingham Children's Crusade; initiated, planned, organized, and directed the 1965 Selma Voting Rights Movement; directed, planned, and organized the 1966 Chicago Open Housing Movement; initiated and planned the 1965 march from Selma to Montgomery; called the 1963 March on Washington; directed, planned, and organized the 1961 Open Theater Movement; initiated, planned, and directed the initial Mississippi Voting Rights Movement; the 1967 Director of the National Mobilization to End the War In Vietnam; and co-initiated the 1995 Day of Antonement/Million Man March. You say "he might have known King?" Not only did he not act as Dr. King's aide, etc., but they acted on an equal footing via their 1962 agreement. This discussion could go elsewhere, but the point of it here regards his ommission from the death-list of the year in accordance with a new policy (who created the policy?). Bevel being constantly removed does show a huge hole in the policy, and deserves comment from more than the two of us. So again I ask for others to comment, and for an exemption to whatever rule this policy belongs to. Randy Kryn, July 6, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randy Kryn (talkcontribs) 22:28, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see support for inclusion other than by you. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Director of Direct Action.[citation needed]
  • Director of Nonviolent Education of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.[citation needed]
  • Initiated, planned, organized and directed the 1963 Birmingham Children's Crusade.[citation needed]
  • initiated, planned, organized, and directed the 1965 Selma Voting Rights Movement.[citation needed]
  • directed, planned, and organized the 1966 Chicago Open Housing Movement.[citation needed]
  • initiated and planned the 1965 march from Selma to Montgomery.[citation needed]
  • called the 1963 March on Washington.[citation needed]
  • directed, planned, and organized the 1961 Open Theater Movement.[citation needed]
  • initiated, planned, and directed the initial Mississippi Voting Rights Movement.[citation needed]
  • the 1967 Director of the National Mobilization to End the War In Vietnam and co-initiated the 1995 Day of Antonement/Million Man March.[citation needed]
  • Not only did he not act as Dr. King's aide, etc., but they acted on an equal footing via their 1962 agreement.[citation needed]
If any of those claim are true then he was involved in the US, not internationally. So it is only right that he'd be listed in 2008 in the United States and not here. This also would explain why there are little or no non-english article about this man as he was unknown outside the US.
I don't know how else to explain it.
For the record, none of the facts you give can be verified, you might want to actually update his article, would that not be a better use of your resources? To improve his article? FFMG (talk) 17:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

A normal condition (see my first comment, regarding feeling like Jeff Clark at Mavericks), but James Bevel's contributions still exist as second to none in American history (where the 1960s Civil Rights Movement often gets called the Second American Revolution). If his death date cannot remain listed among the significant deaths of the year then, it seems to me, there remains a problem in the listings system and not in the attempt to list. I'll refrain from listing for now, but ask anyone else, especially those with a sense of history, to, as Jeff Clark said for 15 years, "Come on in, the water's fine." Randy KrynRandy Kryn (talk) 16:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC) 7 July, 2009

He is listed in 2008 in the United States, where he had some kind of impact, (I guess), but he is not listed in 2008 as he had no international impact.
This article is for international personalities, not national ones. FFMG (talk) 17:09, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
Putting Bevel's death back into article. For anyone, especially people who work on wikipedia articles, to argue that the 1960s Civil Rights Movement only had national importance and not an immediate, ongoing, and expanding international one, does surprise me. As nice as I could put it without offense, and I hope none taken. And how do I find the number of international articles (you say someone needs a minimum number for consideration on the list)? Randy Kryn, August 9, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randy Kryn (talkcontribs) 23:32, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Bevel is virtually unknown outside the United States; he had no impact in any other country in the world. As such, he is nowhere near eligible enough to be included on this article. Even if he were the most important, famous, popular, influential activist in America (which he wasn't); he would still not be eligible. You can't honestly claim he was relevant to Japan, Germany, the UK, France, Brazil, Russia etc. Information yes (talk) 13:40, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

During the 1960s Civil Rights Movement Bevel was the co-most important and influential along with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. If King would find inclusion in such a list, then Bevel would as well. The international influence of their movement was reflected in freedoms and movements organized in various countries for women's, gay, and other rights, and without their '60s movement in the U.S. the Eastern European non-violence during the 1980s, as various countries freed themselves from U.S.S.R. influence, may have emerged as violent attempts. Randy Kryn, August 12, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randy Kryn (talkcontribs) 19:24, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

This has been discussed at length already, he was not co-most important, he was not co-anything, he knew Mr King and did one or two things with him, (all in the US and not even in most states).
You claims of international influences is far, far from true. You have no references of such claims because they are simply not true.
Trying to give credit to the US civil right movement for just about everything that has happened around the world since then is baffling.
That you somehow believe that what happened in one country had such an impact on so many other countries makes of mockery of the thousands that died, (and are still dying), to free themselves from opression. FFMG (talk) 05:10, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Even if he was that influential in the US (which he never was), there is still the fact that he had no effect on anything abroad. The successful fight against communist dictatorships by people in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe was completely detached from, and different to, what happened in the United States. The US has never had a communist regime; the issues / regimes / process was completely different and there was no co-ordination between what happened to dismantle communism to what Bevel did, thousands of miles away, in the US. The fact that there is only one foreign language article (Dutch) proves that he had no influence on E Europe; if he had, he would have articles in Russian, Polish, Hungarian, Czech, Romanian etc. - he doesn't. Bevel is virtually unknown outside the US, because he had no effect on anything outside his own country. Information yes (talk) 08:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll comment here, and then "cool my jets" on this topic for awhile. Bottom-line, if you would have included Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., in this list upon his death, then James Bevel should assuredly also find inclusion. Bevel and King created a two-person agreement in 1962 which shaped the 1960s Civil Rights Movement and brought it multiple and worldwide reported successes. Bevel and King, co-equals in that movement. And I said the Eastern European movements "may have emerged as violent" if the CRM did not exist, because I recall many organizers of those actions saying that their movement stayed nonviolent because of the lessons of Gandhi's and "King's" movements. To conclude for now, the Bevel/King team was real, although vastly underreported in the U.S. and elsewhere (as you've made clear), and it did change the world, not just the U.S. I've enjoyed this discussion, and will find my way back here someday. Randy Kryn, August 13, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randy Kryn (talkcontribs) 18:14, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

If there really was a two person agreement in which King and Bevel were equals, or Bevel was some kind of deputy to King, then find a reliable source that says so and add it to Bevel's article. King's name is known the world over, yet the vast majority of people outside the US have never heard of Bevel. If Bevel really was as important as you claim, submit some proof to back that up. Violence was used both by communists and those fighting against it in Eastern Europe, such as that used to remove Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceaucescu. Your claim that Bevel, or the US 1960s CRM in general, prevented there being any violence in overthrowing communism is therefore false. If what happened in the 1960s had so much effect on E Europe, the why did it take until the late 1980s before communist regimes there were dismantled. What happened in the 60s in the US did not affect the lives of the people of the Soviet Union and the many E European countries that were living under communist regimes and who did not have the free access to the media sources that Americans had. The communist regimes prevented their citizens finding out the truth about what was really going on in their own countries, let alone what was happening in the free world. It wasn't until the communist regimes were removed that the general populations of those countries were able to find out the truth about current and historical events. How could the communist-ruled people of the Soviet Union and E Europe be influenced by something that was totally different to what they were enduring, and which they did not even know about? Information yes (talk) 06:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe an ironclad argument for Bevel's inclusion in 2008 deaths: The Bevel/King team was arguably (and quite easily argued) the top tier of the 1960s Civil Rights Movement. The successes of those years and those movements would probably not have occurred without their 1962 agreement and subsequent working relationship. Martin Luther King Jr. has articles on Wikipedia in 89 languages. 89! James Bevel has articles in two languages. Yet, the two being equal in their chosen field of endeavor, and with Bevel not yet getting widespread and appropriate credit for his work--credit he never sought but accepted when it came his way--shouldn't Wikipedia at least acknowledge the data, and allow James Bevel to be listed among the prominent world deaths of 2008? Randy Kryn, September 13, 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randy Kryn (talkcontribs) 19:11, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Show some evidence to back up your claim that 'King and Bevel were equal in their field'. If that really were the case, why has King been world-famous for decades, yet the vast majority of people have never heard of Bevel? If he had relevance abroad he would have more articles; notice the massive difference between the length of Bevel's article (which would be even shorter if not for what he did to his underage daughters) and King's article. Information yes (talk) 23:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Barack Obama[edit]

hum —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.163.215.162 (talk) 20:21, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

  • Please don't remove Obama's election again without getting consensus. Elections are allowed to be included, and this is one of the most notable for a long time. For just one example of coverage in year roundups, see http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/series/2008-in-review+barack-obama. This is not a run-of-the-mill footnote, it's incredible that editors somehow think that this event should be removed from a year summary when most summaries of 2008 in reliable sources would include it. Fences&Windows 17:49, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

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