Talk:2013–14 Real Madrid C.F. season

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New kit numbers[edit]

It appears that Jesús will wear #13 and Casemiro #16 (for at least this week). Can someone make the new edits? Raul17 (talk) 16:32, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done Glad to see Casemiro fully promoted. Bobby (talk) 18:23, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Starting XI[edit]

There is clear consensus here (among many other places) that Starting XI's violate WP:OR and are not encyclopedic. Same goes for discipline and assist stats = violates WP:NOTSTATS and there is no reliable agreement between sources to accurately record them. The definition of assist varies from site to site as well! GiantSnowman 18:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't see a clear consensus at all. There's a pretty good mix of support/oppose/compromise in that discussion. Discipline and assists are not indiscriminate statistics (such as number of offsides per player or goals scored by Ronaldo's left foot) and hence do not violate NOTSTATS and there is consummate source agreement over to accurately record card accumulation, assists, starting lineups and formations. Bobby (talk) 19:28, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Offsides and discipline are indiscriminate, there exists no RS to verify them. Add there is clear consensus regarding Starting XI - you just don't like it. GiantSnowman 19:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Agree logging offsides would be indiscriminate and would offer little value. Discipline is not, especially because yellow card accumulation leads to suspension and information pertaining to that is relevant. Plenty of RS exist regarding discipline such as [1], [2] among others. Bobby (talk) 20:08, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Assists[edit]

What about assists? There is no standard definition, each stats site has their own one, and consequently different stats. GiantSnowman 20:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

There are sources that cover whether a player has received a yellow or red card so discipline can be sourced easily, but i don't agree with including assists how reliably can that be sourced. However with regards to the starting eleven there is no sources that cover it and calculations have to be made to verify who is in the most frequent starting eleven, its very clearly original research which is policy. On top of that there is clear consensus against its use and has been in plenty of discussions over the years.Blethering Scot 20:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
La Liga (and the RM website) officially tracks assists. See [3] under asistencias de gol. Independently, ESPN includes assists as a major statistical category as well. Bobby (talk) 20:26, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Do ESPN and La Liga have the same definition of an assist? Is that the same as other websites' definitions? If not, how can we objectively say that assists are stats that should be recorded quantitatively in this manner? In my opinion, we shouldn't be putting so much emphasis on stats in the first place, and we should put more prose into club season articles. Otherwise the whole article violates WP:NOTSTATS. – PeeJay 20:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
There are two many variants with assists and definitions. To expand what i said about sources is they will contradict because of definitions so they are not easy to reliably source and be assured of accuracy and that makes it a no no. On top of that ts just not necessary.Blethering Scot 20:56, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
ESPN, La Liga, and RealMadrid.com all have the same definition of assist, at least over the past three years. The only source I've noticed with a varying method of awarding assists is goal.com. For La Liga, either ESPN, LFP, or RM easily pass as reliable sources. For Champions League, UEFA.com provides the statistic as well in addition to ESPN and RM. Accuracy and sourcing aren't issues particularly when the organizing party publishes the statistic that is confirmed by independent sources. Bobby (talk) 01:54, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
"At least three years" isn't good enough - what about before then? GiantSnowman 09:36, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
The main point is assists is an official statistic in La Liga and multiple agreeing sources exist. Maybe English football doesn't track assists, resulting in discrepancies across sources. Bobby (talk) 15:37, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
You should be a politician - your ability to not directly answer questions or concerns is outstanding. GiantSnowman 15:44, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Were you trying to argue that ESPN and the official La Liga site fail to qualify as RS? I feel you're attempting to dig up every possible minor loophole in order to exclude assists rather than considering counter points being made and analyzing them at face value with an open mind. Bobby (talk) 17:19, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
No, I'm simply saying that many otherwise reliable sources often disagree on the definition of, and therefore number of, assists. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football‎#Assists for further consensus that assists are not encyclopedic. GiantSnowman 17:31, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Instead of assuming sources disagree, can you provide some that disagree with the above sources listed pertaining to Real Madrid specifically please? Bobby (talk) 18:02, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Happily. A quick look at Ronaldo's stats for the 2012–13 season - one of the club's most popular players (so should have more out there about him, people paying more attention to stats etc.) and the last completed season. The Real Madrid official website gives him 9 La Liga assists, whereas ESPN gives him 10. GiantSnowman 18:50, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, if that doesn't settle it, I don't know what will! – PeeJay 10:44, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
To me I dont see any more idea to discuss this. The last post from User:GiantSnowman is crystal clear and previous discussions has also led to removal of assist. Do you have anything to add User:Xboxandhalo2 or could we say that consensus has been reached? QED237 (talk) 11:37, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Consensus? There are people in favour and against - not really clear consensus. AbdulA85 (talk) 18:55, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
You clearly don't know how 'consensus' works. GiantSnowman 08:55, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Until you wrote there were only one against and the rest against. And also the person against got his argument "killed" when User:GiantSnowman showed it was not correct. To me it is crystal clear, as discussed on WT:FOOTY earlier. QED237 (talk) 19:05, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

AbdulA85 is a 'new' editor so one can forgive him for not knowing how WP:CONSENSUS works. GiantSnowman 19:07, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the Ronaldo case, then simply remove RM as an RS because LFP records ten as well, and they're the official source. Bobby (talk) 02:23, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
I think you're missing the point here, dude. Since different sources disagree on the definition of an assist, it's impossible for us to say which one is "correct" and so we shouldn't be making judgements like this on which sources to use and which not to. – PeeJay 07:42, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
Precisely - how do we know which is the 'correct' source? We don't/can't, hence why there is overwhelming consensus here and at WT:FOOTY that assists should not be included. GiantSnowman 18:23, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
Whatever the competition organizer reports is the official and hence 'correct' source, just like for goals. Also I don't see consensus at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Assists when three editors support inclusion with a rationale. Bobby (talk) 18:57, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I completely agree that we should not include assists for the reasons already provided here by GiantSnowman and PeeJay. There is nothing else to add really, they do not add value to the article in my opinion. JMHamo (talk) 19:28, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with GiantSnowman, PeeJay and JMHamo, can we WP:DROPTHESTICK? unless you really enjoy having the article fully protected. Frietjes (talk) 16:31, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm not for nor against assists( if you really look at, no stats should be in team articles). MSL has assists as an official stat. To them, a player who makes a pass to a player who scores, receives an assist. As for reliable sources, The only source I found (and use) is Soccer-Spain but they don't keep stats! I check them with the Madrid site's video of each game and I have not found any errors with their awarding assists. I think that assists shows which playmaker are finding the open man. Rinaldo will score goals, but who is the most reliable passer? But I'm one of those who will use stats to show what happened (being ex-baseball fan, I will use stats any way I can). I think that we will play nicely now. Raul17 (talk) 03:38, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Fullprotection[edit]

Have locked the page for the time being - am happy for an another admin to unprotect if I am not around and situation has settled/resolved. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:43, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

To whoever here has logged out to issue me with bogus warnings - I suggest you stop immediately, it won't end well for you. GiantSnowman 08:53, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 September 2013[edit]

1. Under Squad information, for Pepe set appearances to 203, for Sergio Ramos set appearances to 356, for Sami Khedira set appearances to 129, for Cristiano Ronaldo set appearances to 203 and goals to 203, for Karim Benzema set appearances to 187, for Gareth Bale set appearances to 1 and goals to 1, for Daniel Carvajal set appearances to 4, for Nacho Fernández set appearances to 18, for Luka Modrić set appearances to 57, for Álvaro Morata set appearances to 20, for Ángel di María set appearances to 140, for Isco set appearances to 4, for Asier Illarramendi set appearances to 1, for Diego López set appearances to 33. Change update date to 14 September 2013.

2. Under Overview, change update date to 14 September 2013.

3. Under League table, for Villarreal, set games played to 4, set draws to 1, set goals for to 10, set goals against to 5, set points to 10; for Real Madrid, set games played to 4, set draws to 1, set goals for to 8, set goals against to 4. Change update date to 14 September 2013.

4. Under Results summary, set away draws to 1, set away goals for to 3, set away goals against for 2. Change update date to 14 September 2013.

5. Under Results by round, set result to D under round 4, set to 4 under round 4. Change update date to 14 September 2013.

6. Under Matches, change Villarreal match to {{footballbox collapsible |round=4 |date=14 September 2013 |time=22:00 [[Central European Time#Central European Summer Time|CEST]] ([[UTC+02:00]]) |team1=[[Villarreal CF|Villarreal]] |score=2–2 |report=[http://www.realmadrid.com/cs/Satellite/en/Actualidad_Primer_Equipo_en/1378985695236/noticia/Cronica/2-2:_Bale_and_Ronaldo_score_as_Madrid_draw.htm Report] |team2=[[Real Madrid C.F.|Real Madrid]] |goals1=[[Rubén Gracia|Cani]] {{goal|21}}<br />[[Javier Aquino|Aquino]] {{yel|34}}<br />[[Giovani dos Santos|dos Santos]] {{goal|70}}<br />[[Tomás Pina Isla|Pina]] {{yel|78}} |goals2=[[Nacho (footballer born 1990)|Nacho]] {{yel|37}}<br />[[Gareth Bale|Bale]] {{goal|38}}<br />[[Sergio Ramos|Ramos]] {{yel|57}}<br />[[Cristiano Ronaldo|Ronaldo]] {{goal|64}}<br />[[Álvaro Morata|Morata]] {{yel|77}} |location=[[Villarreal]] |stadium=[[Estadio El Madrigal]] |attendance=22,000 |referee=[[Fernando Teixeira Vitienes]] ([[Cantabria Football Federation|Cantabria]]) |result=D |motm= |stack=yes }} Change Levante game's date to 5 October and time to 22:00. Change update date to 14 September 2013.

7. Under Squad statistics, for Diego López set games started to 4, set La Liga appearances to 4, set minutes to 376; for Pepe set games started to 4, set La Liga appearances to 4, set minutes to 376; for Sergio Ramos set games started to 4, set La Liga appearances to 4, set minutes to 376; for Sami Khedira set La Liga appearances to 3, set minutes to 159; for Luka Modrić set games started to 4, set La Liga appearances to 4, set minutes to 376; for Ángel di María set La Liga appearances to 4, set minutes to 239; for Isco set games started to 4, set La Liga appearances to 4, set minutes to 376; for Cristiano Ronaldo set games started to 4, set La Liga appearances to 4, set minutes to 376, set La Liga goals to 2; for Karim Benzema set games started to 4, set La Liga appearances to 4, set minutes to 324; for Daniel Carvajal set games started to 2, set La Liga appearances to 4, set minutes to 198; for Nacho Fernández set games started to 1, set La Liga appearances to 2, set minutes to 125; for Álvaro Morata set La Liga appearances to 2, set minutes to 32; for Gareth Bale, set games started to 1, set La Liga appearances to 1, set minutes to 62, set La Liga goals to 1; for Asier Illarramendi set games started to 1, set La Liga appearances to 1, set minutes to 62. Change update date to 14 September 2013.

8. Under Goals, for Cristiano Ronaldo, set La Liga goals to 2, set total to 2. Add Gareth Bale and set rank to 4, set La Liga goals to 1, set total to 1. Remove Ronaldo's rank and set rowspan=2 after Benzema's rank. Change update date to 14 September 2013.

9. Under Disciplinary record, add Nacho Fernández and set number to 18, set position to CB, set nationality to Spain, set La Liga yellow cards to 1; add Sergio Ramos and set number to 18, set bg to y, set position to CB, set nationality to Spain, set La Liga yellow cards to 1; add Álvaro Morata and set number to 18, set position to CB, set nationality to Spain, set La Liga yellow cards to 1. Change update date to 14 September 2013.

10. Under Overall, for games played, set total to 4, set away to 2; for games drawn, set total to 1, set away to 1; for goals scored, set total to 8, set away to 3; for goals conceded, set total to 4, set away to 3; for average GF per game, set total to 8/4, set away to 2/2; for average GA per game, set total to 4/4, set away to 2/2; for yellow cards, set total to 6, set away to 4; for most appearances, set to Nine players (4); for most minutes played, set to Six players (376); for points, set total to 10/12 (10/12), set away to 4/6 (4/6); for winning rate, set home to 3/4, set away to 1/2. Change update date to 14 September 2013.

Thanks. Bobby (talk) 00:23, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

The page protection can be removed when you accept the consensus that assists/Starting XI should not be used. GiantSnowman 09:03, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
There is too much here. Can you create a sandbox in your userspace with the desired changes. Then link to it and seek approval here. Then reactivate the request? Regards — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:33, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 15 September 2013[edit]

For the Galatasary match, set referee to [[Mark Clattenburg]] ([[The Football Association|England]]). Thanks. Bobby (talk) 17:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

See above, thanks — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:34, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit Request 18 September[edit]

This is ridiculous. The article is closed to editing because of a dispute over assists? Really? Italia2006 (talk) 23:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

What is ridiculous about it? JMHamo (talk) 23:53, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
A dispute about assists shuts down the entire article? That's not ridiculous to you? Italia2006 (talk) 16:43, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Have a read of WP:EDITWAR. Nothing ridiculous about this. JMHamo (talk) 16:55, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
I meant more that it's been going on since 4 September according to the earliest post that I read. How has this not yet been resolved? Italia2006 (talk) 19:13, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Because every time the article is available to be edited, someone adds back the assists section against consensus. You can't protect sections of an article, so the whole article is protected. If you'd like to discuss it further, please feel free to do so, either here or at WP:FOOTY. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 September 2013[edit]

AngelOfMadrid (talk) 23:59, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Blank edit request. JMHamo (talk) 00:05, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Stating the obvious there JMHamo. Do you think no one could see it was blank? 81.157.223.210 (talk) 21:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the constructive feedback! JMHamo (talk) 21:38, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit Request 21 September[edit]

Is this article going to be updated before the end of the season? Thank you... Ebalao (talk) 13:34, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

The article will be unprotected and updated when the edit dispute has ben solved and that is when User:Xboxandhalo2 will agree on what everyone else says. QED237 (talk) 11:39, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
well, User:Xboxandhalo2 hasn't editted in over a week now, so I move we reduce the protection to semi, which will stop some of the SPA IP edits. If User:Xboxandhalo2 continues to ignore consensus on this issue, User:Xboxandhalo2 can be blocked for edit warring. Frietjes (talk) 15:35, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Sounds fair. I agree. Raul17 (talk) 15:56, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Not done: requests for changes to the page protection level should be made at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:24, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Happy to tweak. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:23, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

I do not participate regularly in discussions at WP:FOOTY, so I may not understand why some people claim consensus over the assists issue, as in my eyes I don't see a universal agreement (along with three other users at FOOTY). I presented my reasons but often received no reply. The first point brought up against the inclusion of assists was inconsistent sourcing and lack of universal agreement over what constitutes an assist. The counterargument was that an official organizing body records the statistic, resulting non-agreeing sources irrelevant, a position supported at FOOTY by User:Eldumpo, User:Chensiyuan, User:Lafuzion, User:Kante4, User:Fudgy budgy, and an IP. Notably, no supporters of removing assists have provided a reply to this point, so how can there be consensus? The second argument was over violation of WP:NOTSTATSBOOK, but this was largely opinion-based from user to user instead of providing evidence to support their positions, which I tried to do by noting ESPN considered assists discriminate enough to include it as one of three individual stat categories, again with no reply. Instead of using and supporting page protection or issuing block threats as attempts to get me to switch sides, I would much rather welcome actual open-minded discussion to the points addressed at FOOTY. Bobby (talk) 05:38, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

User:Qed237 is not an admin so he doesn't decide when the page is unprotected. God knows why he thinks he has any authority in this. 31.53.223.93 (talk) 12:01, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Have I ever said I have any authority? I just say what I have be told when having a discussion with the administrators. QED237 (talk) 12:07, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
"what everyone else says" from QED is just total wrong. I have yet to see a reason given why assists should not be included other than "it was decided some time". When there are official league sources we should use them. Also there are many people/users who don't agree with removing them... So, don't speak for others! Kante4 (talk) 16:24, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Have you ever read the discussion at WT:FOOTY. The only argument is "it was decided some time"??? Please read again. QED237 (talk) 17:52, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps everyone should re-read them. The arguments favoring deletion thusfar have not been presented using reasons based in policy, sources, and common sense, while the other side has...but with no replies. Bobby (talk) 18:09, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
There are no sources or everyone judges it differently is said. Then, if the official league websites publish them, why shouldn't those be on wikipedia. We go after that. And no editor answered that, like Bobby said. Then it was said "it was decided..." so, tell me why we should NOT use the official sites that DO publish them? Kante4 (talk) 18:22, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
Since more than one competition is included in the article and in Wikipedia, does each competition define an assist equally? The fact that sources exist is not in question. The question is "how do these sources define an assist and is it a consistent definition?"EddieV2003 (talk) 00:47, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────As expected no answer from QED, wants to act like somebody but not replying, whatever... Sure there are more competitions, for the League/Cub games we use bbva/rff, for Europe we use UEFA.com and so on. Nearly every official site has an assist table. Don't see an issue with that as they can be sourced in the table(s). Kante4 (talk) 20:39, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

per WP:CONLIMITED, try discussing in a wider forum (e.g., WT:FOOTY) Frietjes (talk) 22:49, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 Done. Kante4 (talk) 16:31, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Live scoring[edit]

Hi.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a livescoring website. Per WP:LIVESCORES we should not have livescoring. This subject has also been discussed at WT:FOOTY here. Please stop adding livescores and join the discussion on WT:FOOTY. WP:LIVESCORES is clear in this case. QED237 (talk) 18:19, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Squad, Statistics, Transfers, and Loans sections[edit]

I have posted a discussion covering the Squad, Statistics, Transfers, and Loans sections on club seasonal pages over at WT:FOOTY. I would appreciate if you could provide your comments on the subject, and also contact other editors who you feel would have useful input. Kanoch (talk) 02:11, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2014[edit]

On 27 July, Real Madrid faced Paris Saint-Germain, Ancelotti's former club, winning 1–0, with Jesé scoring the goal. Also, Real Madrid announced the sale of Gonzalo Higuaín to Napoli for €40 million.

82.3.158.55 (talk) 16:18, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. - Arjayay (talk) 16:22, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

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