Talk:2014 Israel–Gaza conflict

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Update casualty numbers[edit]

One of the Israeli soldiers wounded during the operation succumbed to his wounds. Can someone please update the article to state that 68 soldiers were killed?

Source: "הלך לעולמו רב-סרן חגי בן ארי שנפצע אנושות ב"צוק איתן"". ynet (in Hebrew). 4 January 2017. Retrieved 4 January 2017. 

Thank you. Inkbug (talk) 08:24, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Timeline of beginning of war is wrong[edit]

The way things are worded makes it seem like Hamas fired rockets at Israel before the opposite was true, which isn't the case.

"Following the IDF Operation Brother's Keeper, Hamas started rocket attacks, targeting Israeli cities and infrastructure, resulting in seven weeks of Israeli operations"

According to the Israeli newspaper Times of Israel and unnamed Israeli officials http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/ Hamas fired for the first time in retaliation for rocket strikes from Israel.

And before the strike there were rocket attacks from Gaza (by groups other than Hamas) and three teenagers were kidnapped and murdered by Hamas members in the West Bank. It's impossible to provide all the events, in the lead only a few major events are mentioned, 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict#Immediate events section is much more detailed - and yet it's simply impossible to tell exactly where it all began; you would have to go back to Kingdom of Israel or perhaps earlier to be sure. WarKosign 18:49, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
No, it is not necessary to go back to ancient times. The kidnapping and murder of the three Israeli teenagers IS mentioned - 23 times to be exact (twice in the prologue/lead). Yet the murder of two Palestinian teenagers a few weeks earlier, does not get a single mention anywhere. The rocket fire by Palestinians on Israel is indeed mentioned - 236 times (10 times just in the prologue/lead). But the previous editor comment is rejected, that rocket fire by Hamas AS RETALIATION for Israeli aggression gets no mention in the prologue. I am sure that Wiki readers of the prologue to this war would be disappointed to know that debate regarding which party initiated the Gaza war in August 2014 is not mentioned. I suggest that cherry picking is being practice... see WP:CHERRYPICKING so I agree with the previous post, this article is skewed and non-Wiki compliant. As responsible editors we should work together to achieve this, and not introduce bias or subjective judgements in our discussions. So let's get on with achieving that. Erictheenquirer (talk) 10:01, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
Erictheenquirer: Providing a comprehensive but neutral article on such a challenging subject would be hard and so nice! --Mhhossein talk 15:11, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
We should go according to WP:RS mention does those events that you describe mentioned by most of the source that discuss the conflict per WP:DUE? -- Shrike (talk) 15:18, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Shrike - WP:DUE states "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources ...", so we have established that the alternative viewpoint needs to be represented. It states further "... in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources". However, here I run into a problem in the current example. I do not read Arabic, so I do not know how much of a minority view it is with a set of key players (the Palestinians (and Arabs)) as to the balance between the two teenager events as shared triggers to the war. This question of needing to be careful with bias when judging if something is a 'mainstream minority' should not be confused with the use of English in the English Wiki. We therefore have three WP:DUE issues - a) the prominence given to the pro-Israeli version of who struck first; b) the exclusive weight given to the murders of the Settlement teenagers versus that of the Palestinian youths, and c) the issue of how we judge minority/majority WP:RS preponderance without data from Palestinian/Arab sources. But I am pleased that you brought up WP:DUE indicating that the murder of the Palestinian teenagers deserve to be mentioned (I know for a fact that they were in a previous version of this article, but some or other destructive editor removed it, after considerable discussion on Talk). I have created a list of questions related to the above editing comments on Wiki protocol by Shrike that I will submit in WP:ARBPIA in the near future, such as random drive-by (knee-jerk?) accusations on non-WP:RS which are usually a time waste. Erictheenquirer (talk) 08:53, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
Shrike - can we assume that your lack of response indicates your recognition that all significant viewpoints are required to be represented (obviously by WP:RS) and that they should be given weight in proportion of each viewpoint in such published sources. That such weight is not limited to sources in Western media and/or in English. Erictheenquirer (talk) 12:16, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

As a related issue I am drafting a proposal to ARBPIA to address the paucity of Palestinian/Arab views in English, so that "proportion" should be judged carefully unless we can get Arab-speaking editors to identify themselves and participate. Erictheenquirer (talk) 12:15, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

And to anticipate any comment that no Palestinian views are available on this topic, I point to the 2015 work of Refaat Alareer and Lai1a El-Haddad, who are distinguished Palestinian writers and analysts from Gaza, whose comprehensive summary is not mentioned anywhere in this article. I can just imagine what would happen were it to be presented as a source for some new text that did not reflect favourably on Israel ... within hours there would be a drive-by revert based on nothing more than "Not RS". Wanna bet? Erictheenquirer (talk) 07:38, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
According to Alareer and El-Haddad themselves, "if we are to believe the popular discourse in the mainstream Western media, Gaza “had it coming,” and by some perverse and morally vacuous logic, its residents “were to blame” for their own suffering". They may disagree with this view, but according to WP:DUE each POV is given weight according to its prevalence in the sources. The article already represents both POVs on most topics, if you see a specific point that is not balanced - please point it out clearly and what is the change you propose. WarKosign 10:32, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
WarKosign - I believe that I have already pointed out such imbalances, but I will detail just those in the prelude here:
1. - Just in the prelude the murder of the three Israeli teenagers is given 2 mentions; the Beitunia murder of the two Palestinian teenagers gets zero coverage there. (In the main text the numbers are Israeli settler teenagers - 6, Palestinian youths - 0). In other words the murder of the young Palestinians is reflected as being 100% "insignificant", as Alareer and El-Haddad prominently pointed out, a characterisation that they (as Palestinians) vehemently reject.
Are there (non WP:FRINGE) sources connecting Beitunia killings with the 2014 conflict ?
Nine sources are provided substantiating the text in Beitunia killings, all attributed, ranging from Illan Pappé (widely cited in I/P articles), an NBC eyewitness journalist in Palestine during OPE; an Iranian-Jewish ME reporter for Al Jazeera; a Fulbright Scholar Sociologist in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories, specialising in providing the 'Palestinian voice', and two Palestinian authors.
2. - In the prelude the aims of Hamas are counterposed by an "however, Israel argues that ...". There is no such balancing quid pro quo to the Israeli objectives.
"However, Israel argues that" counterpoints the claim that Israel was the first to break the ceasefire. There is no counterpoint to Hamas's goal, we could mention Hamas Covenant and mention that Hamas' declared goal is obliteration or dissolution of Israel.
We could also mention Netanyahu's May 2015 electioneering in which he disavowed any creation of a Palestinian state. That would explain why he was so furious at the Fatah-Hamas reconciliation on 2 June 2014.
3. - Palestinians are referred to as "militants", no such judgemental adjectives are used to refer to the occupiers.
The word only means "a person engaged in warfare or combat". It is a compromise between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter". See WP:TERRORIST. IDF members are called soldiers because they are a part of an organized army, technically they are militants too but "soldiers" is more accurate.
Thank you - accepted. That similarly then means that violent settlers are militants. It will take a long time to implement that editing.
4. - Regarding precursor events, the lead paragraph mentions Hamas' rocket fire (no Israeli deaths), but nothing about Israels actual killing of Palestinians during 'Brother's Keeper' - a blatant preferential bias.
I suppose we can mention 5 people killed during the operation. Do you have sources detailing who they were ?
About as many as the Israeli civilians that were killed in the entire OPE war ... yes, I have their names. Do we really need them?
5. - Related to this the prelude mentions Hamas rocket fire 10 times, but never mentions Israel ordnance applications nor even hints as to how many instances were retaliations for Israeli aggression. [This combination is perhaps the most objectionable part of the entire introduction]
Israeli attacks are mentioned in paragraphs 1,3,4, same as the rockets. Are there hints to how many Israel ordinance applications were retaliations for rocket attacks ?
Excellent idea. We could list the numbers of projectiles launched by each side, their cumulative damage power (I have good sources) and the chain-of-events / cause-and-effect. The results could be surprising. I agree with you fully; excellent suggestion.
6. - Israeli representatives 'state' (the usual verb), 'argue' while pro-Palestinian players 'claim'
I don't see 'claim' used often, but when it is this is a violation of WP:CLAIM, should be fixed.
In fact it is used 14 times, but with further attention I realise that it is applied about 50:50 to both sides, so I retract that one.
7. - The prelude has a drop-in 'non sequitur' that is also a misquoted 'spin' on the source- "Hamas assumed responsibility for rockets fired into Israel and launched 40 rockets towards Israel".
Which part is misquoted ? As far as I can tell the sources support this statement fully.
The text is a drop-in. It makes no mention of the sequence of events only that "after seven Hamas militants died ... Hamas assumed responsibility for rocket attacks". Which rockets? Over all of 2014? Only during June? Only after 7 June? Did you also spot the cherry-pick when checking, because you do not mention it; the full text reads "On 7 July, Hamas claimed responsibility for firing rockets for the first time in 20 months". Confirmation of my claim of bias, I would say.
8. - In a similar one-sided bias, Hamas weapons deployment into Israel is detailed without a counterpoint of Israel rockets and heavy artillery launchings into Gaza.
Where ? There is a section dedicated to rockets and tunnels used by Hamas, and a section naming and numbering Israel use of military equipment.
Correct, my bad. Sincere apologies. WOW - Israel fired 34,000 unguided shells into Gaza more than half of which were the very powerful 155mm projectiles. And that is compared to 4,564 projectiles fired from Gaza, the great majority of which were fertilizer-fuelled stovepipes. See where this is going? So much for the "rockets raining down on Israel" comparative threat.
9. - The main body of the article is so replete with similar imbalanced POVS that it would be impossible to detail them all here
I can only respond to specific points. If you are vaguely unhappy with the article not taking your side I can't help with this.
I trust you will assist in the eradication of these imbalances Erictheenquirer (talk) 11:40, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
I responded inline to each of the items, otherwise I think the discussion would be too difficult to follow. I hope you don't mind, if you do I'll restore your text to exactly like it was and I'll move my replies to a separate section. I will do my best to fix any specific point that I can agree with, and to not let you break the balance on points that I consider already properly balanced. 14:31, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
I believe that most of your comments will need to be retracted when you take note of my caveat right at the start that "I will detail just those in the prelude here". The remainder can be discussed as we embark on the clean-up, probably after the main text has been balanced. Erictheenquirer (talk) 16:07, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
I similarly responded inline to each of the items, agreeing with your methodology. Could you perhaps point me to where the crippling blockade/embargo is addressed? Erictheenquirer (talk) 16:48, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
Agreed. Corrected timeline:

Timeline

21 Feb 2014: "Israel says 43 missiles have been fired from Gaza so far this year". However a spokesperson from Gaza's Government, Hamas, said in response to the rocket fire: "Israel follows a policy of collective punishment but we are concerned to keep the situation calm and under control. We are not interested in any kind of confrontation. But if we were not in control there would be many more missiles". Islamic Jihad, a smaller faction backed by Iran, also respected the ceasefire at that time: "We are committed to a ceasefire as long as the occupation is" said their spokesperson Abu Saad - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/21/gaza-ceasefire-threatened-border-clashes-hamas-weak-palestinian - And Fatah and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank had well and truly committed to peace long before then.

28 Feb 2014: "The Al-Aqsa Mosque is Islam’s third holiest site after sites in Mecca and Medina in Saudi Arabia... the Israeli regime forces banned thousands of Palestinians, including men under the age of 50, from entering or praying in the holy site during Friday prayers... Earlier in February, Israeli forces stormed the holy site during Friday prayers. Israeli soldiers fired rubber bullets and stun grenades at the people who were praying at the mosque. At least 20 people, including children, were wounded in the violence." - http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/05/07/361622/israel-limits-access-to-alaqsa-mosque/

4 Mar 2014: Israel responds to the scorched pavement and pot-holes caused by the ineffective Palestinian rockets by killing 2 Palestinians who it claims were near the launch zone. - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/03/israel-air-strike-kills-two-gaza

11 Mar 2014: "Israeli troops shoot dead a Palestinian-Jordanian judge at border crossing" - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/israeli-troops-shoot-palestinian-jordanian-judge-border-crossing

14 Mar 2014: Zero Israelis and 3 Palestinians were injured in an exchange of rocket fire for air-strikes that ended in a restoration of Islamic Jihad's cease-fire. - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/13/gaza-islamic-jihad-truce-israel-confrontation

4 Apr 2014: "Israel scrapped the scheduled release of a group of Palestinian prisoners and called for the entire US-sponsored negotiations to be "reviewed", in what could be a fatal blow to the current round of Middle East peace talks. Officials blamed the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, and his decision to restart his push for membership of 15 UN bodies for the move, which was itself a Palestinian response to delays and wrangling over the prisoners' release." - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/03/israel-palestine-prisoners-talks-reviewed

9 Apr 2014: "An Israeli government official says the prime minister, Binjamin Netanyahu, has told his ministers to stop holding meetings with their Palestinian counterparts. The official said the move was in response to what Israel has called a "provocative" Palestinian bid to join United Nations agencies."

12 Apr 2014: "Israel has seized three EU-funded humanitarian aid projects on the edge of a settlement construction zone... All three shelters were prefabricated caravans, built for families made homeless in severe storms that hit the region in December... the chief Palestinian negotiator, told EurActiv that seizure was "more than a provocation, it is a crime""

14 Apr 2014: "In a narrow alley in Shuafat refugee camp, in East Jerusalem... For almost a month, many of the Palestinian residents have been largely without any running water, having to buy drinking water in bottles or from private tanking firms... While the neighbourhood is part of Jerusalem, and its residents Jerusalemites, the building of Israel's separation wall has cut Shuafat off from the rest of the city which must be accessed through a military checkpoint. Israeli services, including rubbish collection, are few and far between." - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/14/welcome-shuafat-jerusalem-camp-water-palestinians-israel

14 Apr 2014: "Israeli man killed and family members hurt as car fired on in West Bank Man's wife and children injured in gun attack on family who were travelling to Hebron for Passover meal... It also comes hard on the heels of... the authorisation by Israel's defence minister, Moshe Ya'alon, of the first new settlement in Hebron since the 1980s." - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/14/israeli-man-killed-gun-attack-hebron

16 Apr 2014: "Dozens of Palestinians were wounded in clashes with Israeli police that erupted when the al-Aqsa mosque compound in Jerusalem was opened to Jewish visitors." - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/palestinians-israeli-police-al-aqsa-jerusalem-temple-mount

18 Apr 2014: " Israeli forces pepper-sprayed nine elderly Palestinians attempting to enter the [Al-Aqsa Mosque]" - http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/05/07/361622/israel-limits-access-to-alaqsa-mosque/

20 Apr 2014: " Clashes erupted earlier Sunday between Israeli policemen and Palestinian worshippers at the gates of the holy site after Israeli forces assaulted Palestinian worshippers and religious students lining up to enter the holy site, eyewitnesses said. At least seven Palestinians suffered temporary asphyxiation and bruises in the ensuing clashes as the Israeli police fired teargas in a bid to break up the crowd, they added... In recent months, groups of extremist Jewish settlers, often accompanied by Israeli security forces, have repeatedly forced their way into the Al-Aqsa complex. The frequent violations anger Palestinian Muslims and occasionally lead to violent confrontations." - http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/24-palestinians-arrested-al-aqsa-clashes-israel-police-2144361985

21 Apr 2014: "Seven rockets fired from the Gaza Strip landed in southern Israel on Monday morning, prompting Israeli airstrikes... The exchange with Gaza followed days of clashes outside Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem that led to the arrests of 24 Palestinian men." - http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/22/world/middleeast/rockets-from-gaza-draw-israeli-airstrikes.html

4 May 2014: Just 2 days after the anniversary Nakba, "the massacre that marred the birth of Israel", confirming John Kerry was wrong to apologise for his 29 Apr 2014 comment that "Israel risked becoming an Apartheid state", "Netanyahu pushes to define Israel as nation state of Jewish people only" - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/04/binyamin-netanyahu-israel-jewish-state

14 May 2014: "Attackers have slashed the tires of Arab-owned cars in the Israeli towns of Yokneam, Acre and Fureidis. Graffiti reading "Death to Arabs" was sprayed in Yokneam and eastern Jerusalem. On Friday, Jerusalem's St. George Romanian Orthodox Church was defaced with the words "Price tag, King David is for the Jews, Jesus is garbage"." - http://www.timesofisrael.com/price-tag-attacks-draw-calls-for-stronger-response/#ixzz38VKtzQBT

15 May 2014: "New video evidence showing the fatal shooting of two Palestinian teenagers last week strongly indicates that neither of the boys posed a threat to Israeli forces at the time they were targeted, supporting claims they were "unlawfully killed"." - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/video-indicates-killed-palestinian-youths-no-threat-israeli-forces 2 Jun 2014: "Israeli warplanes staged two bombing raids on targets in central and southern Gaza following rocket fire on southern Israel... Since the start of the year, about 150 rockets have struck Israeli territory" 5 Jun 2014: "Israel's housing ministry... announced new plans for almost 1,500 new settlement housing units in the West Bank and east Jerusalem" - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/05/israel-build-more-homes-settlements

9 Jun 2014: "The Israeli cabinet is being pushed to fast-track a new law that would compel doctors to force-feed up to 120 Palestinian prisoners being held without charge in "administrative detention", some of whom have been on hunger strike for more than 40 days... Ziva Mira, a spokesman for [the Israeli Medical Association], said last week: "Force-feeding is torture, and we can't have doctors participating in torture."" - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/09/israel-force-feeding-law-palestinian-hunger-strikers

12 Jun 2014: Three Israeli teenagers are missing, presumed kidnapped or dead. Israel launches a massive retaliatory operation, detaining over 100 innocent people and raiding and trashing thousands of homes of Palestinians - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2660176/Well-turn-membership-Hamas-ticket-Hell-Israel-arrests-40-Palestinians-hunt-missing-teenagers.html - under the pretext of searching for the boys, even after they knew they were dead. - http://972mag.com/how-the-public-was-manipulated-into-believing-the-teens-were-alive/92865/

18 Jun 2014: " More than 50 Palestinians released in 2011 as part a high-profile deal to free Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit are back in custody after they were arrested during Israeli military operations to locate three missing teenagers." - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/18/palestinians-freed-2001-gilad-shalit-custody

20 Jun 2014: "Hospital officials said three Palestinians suffered bullet wounds in the overnight clashes in Jenin, a militant stronghold and the scene of deadly fighting during a Palestinian uprising a decade ago. There were no reported Israeli casualties." - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/19/gun-battle-west-bank-jenin-israel-students - Israeli troops killed a Palestinian teenager in the occupied West Bank on Friday and arrested 25 people" - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/20/palestinian-teenager-killed-israeli-arrest-raids-west-bank

22 Jun 2014: "At least one person was killed in clashes between Israeli forces and Palestinians in Ramallah on Sunday as troops continued a crackdown on Islamist group Hamas." - http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jun/22/israeli-forces-clash-palestinians-ramallah-west-bank-video

30 Jun 2014: "Militant groups in the Gaza Strip have struck southern Israel with a barrage of rockets in a significant escalation of tensions in recent days that has also included multiple Israeli air strikes. By mid-morning on Monday 14 rockets were reported to have been fired, all except one landing in open areas. One rocket struck a building but no injuries were caused. Although groups in Gaza other than Hamas have been largely blamed for launching the rockets. A Palestinian health official, Ashraf al-Kidra, said a man killed by Israeli fire in Gaza on Sunday was a member of Hamas' armed wing. Three Palestinians have been killed in air strikes since Friday... Almost 400 Palestinians have been arrested on the West Bank, most of them Hamas members, while five have been killed." - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/30/gaza-rockets-strike-southern-israel - But in an Orwellian piece of propaganda, on Monday a senior Israeli source said: "We are not interested in an escalation"!

1 Jul 2014: The three missing teen's bodies are found. Despite denials from Hamas of responsibility, and without any evidence that Hamas was responsible, and despite Israeli terrorists' history of targeting their own to incite violence - for example, 17 Jews were among the 91 killed in the 1946 bombing of the King David Hotel by Israeli terrorists - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing - and 267 Jewish refugees were killed by Israeli terrorists in 1940 when they used a bomb to sink the SS Patria in Haifa Harbour rather than have the ship be deported without the refugees disembarking - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria_disaster - Despite this, despite it being far from clear that Hamas was responsible, the Israeli Prime Minister vowed: "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay" - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/30/bodies-missing-israeli-teenagers-found-west-bank - "Israeli jets and helicopters launched dozens of air strikes across the Gaza Strip overnight on Monday, just hours after the bodies of three abducted Israeli teenagers were found" - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/israeli-jets-gaza-netanyahu-hamas-teenagers-deaths

2 Jul 2014: An autopsy of a Palestinian boy killed in an apparent revenge attack "found soot in his lungs, suggesting that Abu Khdair was still alive and breathing when he was set on fire, Owaiwi said." - http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/autopsy-shows-palestinian-teen-burned-alive-20147512213466184.html - Israeli police attended the funeral and naturally it ended in them firing tear gas and rubber bullets when they wouldn't leave despite it being made clear they weren't welcome.

5 Jul 2014: "A 15-year-old American high school student, whose Palestinian cousin was abducted and murdered last week, has said that he was brutally beaten by Israeli police in an unprovoked attack amid riots in East Jerusalem." - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/06/israel-police-beat-us-teen-palestinian-boy. The video footage of the beating is available here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/06/us-demands-investigation-into-alleged-beating-of-teenager-by-israeli-police

7 Jul 2014: After showing unbelievable restraint, the final straw which prompted the entry of Hamas aka the government of Gaza into the conflict was the killing of 7 of their members in an unprovoked air-strike - "Hamas has vowed revenge on Israel after seven of its members were killed in an air strike in the deadliest exchange of fire since the latest round of attacks began weeks ago." On that same day, 2 other Palestinians, who according to Israel belonged to another militant organisation, and were responsible for firing rockets into Southern Israel were also killed, as Israel suffered their first injury positively attributable to Palestinians in this whole conflict - an Israeli soldier - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/07/hamas-vows-revenge-israel-seven-members-killed

8 Jul 2014: Israel launches Operation Protective edge in response to Hamas rockets - As of 25 Jul 2014 the Palestinian death toll was 832. "Rights groups say around 80 percent of the casualties so far have been civilians, and the UN agency for children UNICEF said Friday that 192 children had been killed during the conflict." - http://news.yahoo.com/baby-among-nine-dead-israeli-shell-hits-un-135337786.html - Israel has targeted schools, hospitals, mosques, residential areas, beaches; no-where is off-limits to them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MathewMunro (talkcontribs) 17:57, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Very good list, how about making it a bit less biased ? For starters to make it sound like it is not propaganda written by Hamas? WarKosign 06:30, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
I agree that it is a good presentation and is bound to improve Wiki on this critical and contentious topic. I also agree that the wording needs to be more neutral. But it gives rise to a few qualms that I have on the general 2014 conflict as reflected above. I still find a clear and strong bias towards the pro-Israeli version. I would like to see how we can solve this imbalance in a collaborative way. Erictheenquirer (talk) 12:56, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
Issue 1: Because I am unable to enter the original Wiki Talk section of Timeline of the 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict, I am unable to find the logic for beginning that timeline with the kidnapping of the three settler teenagers – other than, once again, it is the pro-Israeli preferred starting point – this bias is becoming a bit tiresome, isn’t it? Again, I ask, why there and not with the Palestinian teenagers, or before. We WILL mutually remedy that in line with WP:BALANCE and WP:CHERRYPICKING.
Issue 2: I particularly object to the slanted deflection of the earlier chain of events from the timeline to 2014_Israel-Gaza_conflict#Background, which itself is so full of cherry-picking and other holes as to be well-nigh useless as an encyclopaedic source.
Issue 3: A further demonstration of gross bias is the sole focus of illustrations (in that Background section) on Palestinian rocket fire and nothing to the imbalance between Palestinian and Israeli deaths during the period. Yet more bias in Background exists in the parachuting in of Shalit’s capture with no word about the Gaza beach family massacre (do 6 Palestinians killed from a single family weigh less than 1 Israeli combatant captured … apparently?). The same applies to the extra-legal Israeli assassinations of Hamas officials. If by now anyone doubts the astonishing slant only in this article’s sub-section, there is still more to be come. These distortions in balance WILL be fixed in further Wiki- edit collaboration.
In line with past experience I intend to be pay particular attention to incorrect impositions of Wiki protocols, such as demanding that articles be unbiased; treating consensus-achievement as a voting process rather than a logic-based discussion; tendentious deletions based on drive-by claims of "Not RS" which I am in the process of presenting to ARBPIA as vandalism and not in the spirit and letter of WP:BOLD, and warranting immediate reverting without being affected by 1RR. Erictheenquirer (talk) 13:03, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
Issue 1 - the logic is WP:RS. Most of the sources specify kidnapping of the 3 teenagers as the beginning of the conflict.
Issue 2 - you need to point out a specific problem or to propose a specific change if you want a response.
Issue 3 - Shalit's kidnapping was undeniably an action performed by Hamas, the causes for Gaza beach explosion (2006) are still unclear. If you have good sources connecting targeted assassinations with the conflict - sure, let's add a mention.
Regarding protocols, let me point you to WP:CIV and WP:AGF. If you have a a specific complaint - go ahead a make it at the appropriate venue, otherwise please stop making vague threats and comments. WarKosign 10:46, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
WarKosign - What threats and lack of civility, and to whom?. I hold up a mirror. Erictheenquirer (talk) 12:33, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
@Erictheenquirer: "...I will submit in WP:ARBPIA in the near future, such as random drive-by (knee-jerk?) accusations...", " within hours there would be a drive-by revert based on nothing more than "Not RS". Wanna bet?" First quote is a threat, second one is assuming (in advance!) bad faith. If you believe an editor acted in violation of some rule, go ahead and report it, don't declare your intention to do so as a part of an argument. If you believe some editor will act in violation, wait for it to happen and then report. People hold very different opinions from yours, and yet some (most?) of them genuinely want to improve the wikipedia. Similarly, some people view your editing efforts as supporting the "bad guys", don't take it personally. WarKosign 14:40, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
  • Mhhossein - I believe that you might be interested in Beitunia_killings - see the "Aftermath" sub-section. I recently provided some sources that I had not seen before, but I do not know why they don't appear in the Wiki2 version, only in the original style. I like your enthusiasm. Erictheenquirer (talk) 14:02, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
Erictheenquirer: I took your comment here for the sake of keeping the chronological order of the comments. How can I help regarding the Beitunia_killings. --Mhhossein talk 14:50, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Number of destroyed homes[edit]

I looked at the source for the figure of 17,000 homes destroyed that appeared in the article until now. The source was JPost, although this was unclear at first, which I have changed. However, I then noticed that there was also a figure of 30,000 homes partially destroyed, which apparently comes from here: http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=718079

However, the source actually says:

"Minister Mufeed al-Hasayneh, a resident of Gaza, told Ma'an that the amount of money is likely to increase as the assault continues. Some 10,000 homes have been completely destroyed, and 30,000 homes partially destroyed, al-Hasayneh said."

In other words, this isn't even an official estimate, but a comment by a random resident of Gaza. I have therefore removed the figure. If anyone finds a reliable source, please re-add the content.

Ynhockey (Talk) 21:52, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Naomi Chazan - Noteworthy?[edit]

"In Israel, according to Naomi Chazan, the Gaza war sparked "an equally momentous conflagration at the heart of Israeli society": attempts to question government policy were met with severe verbal and physical harassment, incidents of Arab-bashing occurred daily, and 90% of internet posts on the war were found to be racist or to constitute incitement." This woman writes a blog post and it becomes a significant chunk of the media coverage section. Is that normal? Also this quote "90% of internet posts on the war were found to be racist or to constitute incitement." Seems to need a stronger source to claim that. And how does someone measure '90% of internet posts'. Sounds extremely hyperbolic to me. | MK17b | (talk) 23:56, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

MK17b: Did she explain how she found that "90% of internet posts ..."? --Mhhossein talk 16:35, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
She claims the numbers come from some NGO, but regardless, this section is about media coverage and yet a third of the section is just quotes from someones blog post. Secondly, the allegations about internet posts, if relevant, should be sourced to reliable source and not just quoting a claim she made in a blog post. | MK17b | (talk) 02:22, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Proposed name change to 2014 Gaza War[edit]

It makes little sense to give this war a name that doesn't mention it, and that lumps it in with low-level conflicts like the Shebaa farms conflict. Plus, we already have a page referring it was that, the 2014 Gaza war beach bombing incidents.--RM (Be my friend) 06:22, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Are there many sources using this name ? WarKosign 06:59, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

http://www.jta.org/2017/04/19/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/parents-of-soldiers-killed-in-2014-gaza-war-rip-netanyahu-at-hearing

http://m.jpost.com/#/app/article/482789

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.784692

http://www.timesofisrael.com/officer-critically-injured-in-2014-gaza-war-laid-to-rest/

http://m.jpost.com/#/app/article/470326

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-provides-icc-with-information-on-2014-gaza-war/


https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/diplomacy-defense/138869-170228-state-comptroller-publishes-damning-report-on-2014-gaza-war

The overwhelming majority of sources say "war".--RM (Be my friend) 13:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I got these numbers of results in a google search without quotation marks/with quotation marks/with "gaza-israel" instead of just gaza/with "Israel-gaza" instead of gaza:
  • 2014 gaza war - 3,450,000/85,200/11,300/4,220
  • 2014 gaza conflict - 7,000,000/27,700/22,200/4,790
  • 2014 gaza hostilities - 2,530,000/1,920/4/314
  • 2014 gaza violence - 6,060,000/9/1/1
Seems like the words "conflict" and "violence" are used far more often than "war" to describe the subject. The exact phrase "2014 Gaza War" is indeed more popular than other exact phrases, but I think that for balance the title of the article should mention Israel too. WarKosign 11:35, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Maybe, maybe not. For example, the article on the Gaza War from 2008-2009 only says Gaza War, as do the articles for the 1982 and 2006 Lebanon Wars. Regardless, this was clearly a war, not just a conflict, like you would title some minor skirmishes, so "conflict" absolutely should be replaced with war.--RM (Be my friend) 13:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Anyone else want to chime in before we change it?--RM (Be my friend) 09:13, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps it's better to ping people who were involved in each of previous rename discussions, to get more opinions; otherwise whatever you do it will be reverted very quickly. WarKosign 10:05, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

United Arab Emirates (UAE) Red Crescent Secretary General Mohammed Al Falahi: Hamas used human shield practices, firing rockets from UAE build field hospital during visit of UAE Red Crescent emissaries in 2014[edit]

United Arab Emirates (UAE) Red Crescent Secretary General Mohammed Al Falahi in June 2017 accuses Hamas for human shield activities firing rockets from field hospital: "While we were in the field hospital that the UAE built, we were surprised by [...] someone from Hamas instigating Israeli forces by launching locally made rockets from the field hospital" (UAE: 'The National' [newspaper]).

..as of June 13 2017: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/230953 http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4975170,00.html https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/6h0ry4/red_crescent_hamas_tried_to_stop_humanitarian_aid/ http://www.ifcj.org/news/stand-for-israel/Hamas-Tried-to-Stop-Humanitarian-Aid.html

Please integrate this international critique of Hamas from UAE Red Crescent Secretary General Mohammed Al Falahi, thank you --79.210.107.36 (talk) 12:14, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Done, copyedits are welcome. WarKosign 11:54, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

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Started by Hamas?[edit]

Currently, intro reads: "Following the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers *by Hamas members*, the IDF conducted Operation Brother's Keeper to arrest militant leaders, Hamas fired rockets into Israel and a seven-week conflict broke out."

Should be: "Following the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers, the IDF conducted Operation Brother's Keeper to arrest *Hamas* leaders in Gaza, Hamas fired rockets into Israel and a seven-week conflict broke out."

This is because Hamas' involvement in the cited kidnapping was denied and is still unconfirmed, and there is a hyperlink to a dedicated Wikipedia page. Also, "Hamas leaders in Gaza" is more accurate than "militant leaders". Simpatico qa (talk) 12:44, 20 July 2017 (UTC) Approved. The IDF assassinated the purported perpetrators before any confirmation could be obtained that they were acting as 'rogues' - or not, making any claims unconfirmed. Erictheenquirer (talk) 16:28, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Misplaced "Armament support"[edit]

1. Is there conclusive evidence that Iran actually supplied fighters in Gaza with armaments **during** the 2014 conflict? If not, it's incorrect to list it in the belligerents column.

2. The USA and Israel have a multi-year military supply program that spanned the conflict period. If armaments were supplied during the conflict, from the USA or any other country, then that should be listed under the belligerents column with a "Armament support" heading.

Since the current references lack the requested evidence, the armament heading should be removed.

Simpatico qa (talk) 12:57, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

1. See the referenced sources: "longtime Iranian assistance is what ultimately helped the Palestinian group build the thousands of rockets it fired at Israeli targets from Gaza starting in July." "We Have Supplied Gaza Resistance With Drones And Fajr 5 Missiles"
2. Do you have sources showing that Israel used military equipment provided by the US in the conflict? We have a source saying that Israel used US-manufactured Paladin M109, it is a reasonable assumption that it was funded by US military aid, but we need a source saying so explicitly. WarKosign 13:04, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

-- "Longtime [Iranian] assistance is what ultimately helped" doesn't make the "longtime assistant" a belligerent in this time-bound conflict. Otherwise one should also list all of Israel's armament suppliers and "development assistants". Even then, it would be misleading to list them as belligerents.

Max Blumenthal[edit]

Max Blumenthal wrote a book specifically about the 2014 Israel-Gaza conflict called 'The 51 Day War - Ruin and Resistance in Gaza'. It is quite illuminating that this dedicated source is not cited even once in this Wiki article. I intend to use it in my review of "2014 Israel–Gaza conflict". I would like to point out that in Wiki - Noticeboard/Archive 198 there is a November 2015 'closing' per request at WP:ANRFC which reads:

"The basis for doubting the reliability of the source [i.e. Blumenthal] in question to support the quotation appears to be based on a critique of the author who is described by another as "deliberately deceptive". Upon closer examination, however, this claim was based on grammatical preferences by the critic, and no other deception that conflicts with reliable source guidelines have surfaced about Blumenthal as it relates to this referenced claim. The source is therefore reliable for the claim as stated.

This 'closing', confirming the reliability of one of Blumenthal's books, means that specific WP:RS justified reasons should be given before deleting any text using Blumenthal's books are the source. In particular any stand-alone "Blumenthal is not WP:RS" 'justification' is invalid by definition. Erictheenquirer (talk) 16:22, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

A book by Max Blumenthal is a good source for Blumenthal's opinions. Per WP:EXCEPTIONAL this book alone cannot be a source for any non-obvious fact that is not collaborated by other sources. WarKosign 17:23, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
WarKosign, many thanks for pointing me to that Wiki policy. You seem to conclude that Blumenthat WILL be exceptional and that therefore entries sourced to him must be phrased as 'opinion'. I have multiple problems with that, probably due to my inexperience. 1) Blumenthal, interviewing in a war zone, might well be the only English source regarding the reactions of the affected Palestinian people. Is this 'exceptional'? 2) What in fact are the shared criteria of 'exceptional'. 3) Example: Why can Oren be used without 'opinion' attribution, but Blumenthal not? They are both biased. 4) What if Blumenthal sees the chain-of-events differently, but still based on the SAME facts - the June 2 Fatah-Hamas reconciliation, the Beitunia killing of the Palestinian teens, the subsequent killing of the settler teens, Brother's Keeper - re-arrests - Palestinian deaths, rocket fire and ultimately Operation Protective Edge (here we converge with the pending issue of bias as above in "Timeline of beginning of war is wrong"); 5) How do we address 'systematic bias'? No responses necessary, because I am sure that these points will be addressed as we continue with the "Timeline of beginning of war is wrong" review. Erictheenquirer (talk) 09:01, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
I'll not respond to the points, but it seems that you misunderstood WP:EXCEPTIONAL - it merely says that exceptional claims need exceptional sources. If Blumenthal reports something that seems routine, his book is reliable enough to report this attributing to him (assuming it is WP:DUE. If he makes some factual claim about Hamas or Israel's actions or intentions that seem unusual or unexpected - these claims need to also be supported by other, more reliable sources, which renders Blumethal as a source useless. WarKosign 18:45, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
We're discussing in vacuum unless we know what parts of the book are going to be used. --Mhhossein talk 07:19, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Title ... again[edit]

As can be seen in Archive 16 of 'Talk', between March and May 2015 there was extensive discussion regarding whether Operation Cast Lead was a 'Conflict' or a 'War'. There was near-unanimous agreement that it was a 'War' and that the article's title deserved to be changed accordingly. This has not happened yet. I suspect that the reason had something to do with a rule that, for a lengthy time after an article had been moved, it could not have its name changed. I presume that period has now passed and that the editorial agreement can be implemented. Comments please. Erictheenquirer (talk) 08:27, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

As far as I remember, I was involved in one of those discussions, but I can't remember if there was any agreements on 'war' although I was in favor of it. However, it would be beneficial if you could show us how you found that "near-unanimous agreement", because once something is agreed upon by editors, it can be implemented. --Mhhossein talk 12:03, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
@Mhhossein: - I have since gone back further into the past to Talk Archive 14 and to Talk Archive 15, and I see that you were correct to query my claim - there has indeed not always been consensus on the matter, so I reverted premature responses to you. Reading all three discussions since WarKosign's original proposal on 28 October 2014, I conclude that some contributors (myself included) changed opinions as discussions progressed, so that simply adding the 'Not Supported' tags gives a false impression. Besides, Wiki is not a poll. In the most recent discussion (Talk Archive 16) it did end with near-unanimous conclusion that the name should be changed since discussions on support for it staying as 'conflict' did not prevail. But I now see that there is one outstanding issue that was not discussed in detail, and that is Sohebbasharat's suggestion in Talk Archive 16 that the name should be changed, not to 'War' but to '2014 Israeli invasion of Gaza'. Since the very first line of the article reads "The 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict also known as Operation Protective Edge ...", and since Operation Protective Edge is indeed Israel's 2014 invasion of Gaza, his proposal has respectful logic to support it. He further justified it with an example of 'invasion' being consistent with Wiki precedents - "To give you another example, the article 2013 invasion of Iraq is not titled 2013 Iraq-US conflict, although there is a background, that US thought that Iraq was preparing WMDs and hence was a threat to its national security". In my view, WarKosign's rebuttal to Sohebbasharat's suggestion, namely that in the Iraqi case that country had not attacked the U.S. "... in any form before the invasion nor during it", while factually correct, does not negate the latter's reasoning, nor the well-established facts that it was firstly an invasion which later (for reasons explained by Mhhossein in Talk Archive 14) became a war and not a simply a short-term 'incident'. The same Wiki precedent is provided by Invasion of Poland which is not called Poland War, and perhaps suggests that a second option might be a rename to '2014 Invasion of Gaza', although previous discussions favoured the naming of Israel. Thirdly, as Nishidani explained, OPE was not simply a low-level chronic 'conflict'. In fact in Wiki's List of invasions we find '2014 Invasion of Gaza' being sourced in the current article. Yet a further reason that makes me favour a name change is that anyone looking to this article to find out more about the '2014 conflict' generated by the June 2 reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas (provoking Netanyahu's intense annoyance) is currently going to be sadly disappointed. Erictheenquirer (talk) 12:57, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for your comprehensive explanation Erictheenquirer. I'm inclined toward having 'Invasion' in the title, too, and would like to see the reasons of the opposers. My suggestion is that you don't mix the discussion because there might be some users in favor of 'War' but opposing 'invasion', and vice versa. --Mhhossein talk 13:35, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Conflict vs. War is questionable - I believe conflict is a bit more suited as this was a bit smaller scale than full-out war - but it could be termed a war - it's a big conflict or a small war - a "tweener". Regarding invasion - that's POV pushing. Specifically, hostilities were commenced by Hamas from Gaza - with intense rocket fire. The first cross border intrusions (ignoring the cross-border tunneling operations which are a casus belli in and of themselves) - were done by Hamas - Specifically a commando raid against Zikim beach (to the north of the Gaza strip) on the 8th of July, and a squad level attack via tunnel into Israel around the Sufa kibbutz (to the east of strip). So if at all we have an invasion of Israel by Gazans - to which Israel responded. So no - this is not an invasion of Gaza - even though that occurred to a pretty limited extent (in terms of depth) in the second half of the conflict. Furthermore, it has been the claim of many (not Israel) that Gaza is still occupied despite the 2005 withdrawal, making the arguement for invasion weaker for thos that hold this POV (an invasion of an occupied territory? Can't have it both ways).Icewhiz (talk) 20:11, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Icewhiz - The evidence that you provide in support of your claim of POV pushing is that it was not an invasion because:
1) "hostilities were commenced by Hamas from Gaza - with intense rocket fire" is based on unreliable sources because, as I show here, multiple sources both direct observers and locally-based journalists provide facts that show your sources to be incorrect. [Any one of the sources that I provide here as justification can be have its information duplicated an numerous unrelated sites, such as HRW, PCHR and mainstream media, all of which, if challenged, have been vetted as WP:RS on Wiki's Reliable Sources Archive] The first signs of incursions occurred during the week leading up to 2 June when Israeli military vehicles made three incursions into Gaza territory plus two occasions of firing at fishermen in Gaza waters. Since you use the tactic of analogy, let us apply it - would Israel have viewed it as an invasion if Hamas military forces had entered Israel 3 times and Gazan boats had fired on 2 occasions at Israeli fishermen operating within their legal territorial waters? This was followed by two rocket attacks on 2 June (note - perpetrators unknown; neither did an Israeli letter to the U.N. concerning the rockets claim that they were fired by Hamas) and Israeli staged bombing raids on two Hamas training bases "just hours before the swearing in of a new Palestinian government ... a reconciliation which was fiercely opposed by Israel.” Then on 5 June Israel announced approval for the building of 1500 new houses in Palestinian territory (The Guardian 5 June 2014), not an invasion, but certainly a major act of war. During June hundreds of Hamas supporters, many of them politicians, were arrested by Israel - still no rocket fire by Hamas. On 11 June 2014 "the first extrajudicial execution operation in the occupied Gaza Strip since early March occurred when "The Israeli Air Force targeted an alleged member of an armed group riding on a motorcycle together with a ten-year old child, in the Beit Lahiya area. The man died instantly and the child, who sustained serious injuries, died three days later. ... Following this incident and through the rest of the week, Palestinian armed groups launched a number of rockets at southern Israel (no attribution to Hamas)." Continuing with this chain-of-events that started with Israel's extrajudicial execution on 11 June, Israel in turn responded with "a series of air strikes targeting alleged military installations, but wrecking greenhouses, a UNRWA clinic and a school. This tit-for-tat chain continues until on 27 and 29 June, the Israeli Air Force conducted additional extrajudicial executions when it "targeted and killed two members of an armed group while they were travelling in the Beach refugee camp, and targeted and killed another member in the Al Qarara area, injuring two others. Since the beginning of 2014, Israeli forces have killed at least 5 members of armed groups in similar operations". Imagine if the IDF had been on the receiving end. On 30 June 2014, in retaliation for the execution the day before, Hamas finally entered the fray and launched a barrage of rockets at Israel, according to Israeli sources, the first to be launched by Hamas since the ceasefire of November 2012. I would suggest that that Times of Israel article is enough to show that any sources (unmentioned by you) for your claim that "hostilities were commenced by Hamas from Gaza - with intense rocket fire" have been proven to be unreliable by a multiplicity of respected sources, including Israeli. You rejection of invasion is therefore without foundation. Next time please substantiate your claims with sources so that we can enter them in Wiki's Reliable Source/Archive as not WP:RS. Many thanks.
2) Your next justification is that the first cross-border incursion was perpetrated by Hamas on 8th July on the Zikim beach is also proved incorrect by the above - see 2 June - and is additionally without substance given that 5 extra-judicial assassinations had taken place in Gaza territory. I doubt that there will be much support for a position claiming that these assassinations, all well before 8 July, were not invasive.
3) Your last justification - based in 'occupation' - is a logical fallacy since it should give the same results when applied to either party, but doesn't - namely 'Israel claims not to be occupying Gaza, and since the bellicose events were triggered by Israeli actions, that country's first-strike cross-border incursions or attacks do constitute an invasion'.
If Israel is still occupying Gaza (as an "occupying power"), then how can Israel Invade? I won't go deep into your wall of text here, but you are tying between events in the West Bank and Gaza, which are two separate theaters. Israel's operations against Gaza - also before the "official" start date of the operation - were prompted by rocket fire from Gaza deep into Israel - on the 2nd of June there were no incursions - but airstrikes following rocket fire into Israel.Icewhiz (talk) 14:56, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
The theatres may, arguably, be separate, but the players who take the actions, are the same, so naturally one cannot separate what happens to them in different districts. Besides which there was not much about the West Bank, so ignore those if it suits you. Regarding the evidence for incursions in early June - my bad; 2 errors - it was in 1 June 2014 (not the 2nd) and I omitted to provide the source - here it is - Israeli military vehicles carried out two separate cross-border military incursions into the southern Gaza Strip. So the chain went: Two Israeli land incursions - rocket fire from Gaza - Israeli air strikes.
The players aren't exactly the same. Maan news is not a great source, and one must note that even if bulldozers crossed the border fence that doesn't mean they crossed the border line itself - as the border line is a bit away from the fence. In any event - unlike the Iraq invasion (which was a decision to invade and stay) or decisions to invade various islands in WWII - in this case a decision to send forces into Gaza was taken only some 10+ days after the commencement of hostilities by Gaza, and was extremely limited in length (withdrawal at the end) and depth (a few kms). If we were to limit this article to this so-called invasion, then most of the article contents would have to go - as rocket strikes and air-strikes in response against Gaza were outside this rather small zone that was "invaded".Icewhiz (talk) 15:44, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Regrettably, once again, no substantiation, and I have so far been requesting it politely. Now I have to insist: a) "Players aren't exactly the same"? Please provide WP:RS. b) The source says 'cross-border raid', not cross fence; please provide WP:RS for rejecting that. c) Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 139 discussed Ma'an in great detail. When detractors of this news agency were pressed for WP:RS justifications, they all failed. Please provide yours. // Please provide WP:RS for cross-border incursions, high explosive ordnance and extra-judicial assassinations are not invasive.

Unsubstantiated Reverts[edit]

1) Icewhiz - your recent revert edit based on "Detailed 2005 timeline not needed - what is important is the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza" is problematic for more than one reason. Firstly in reverting you did not first broach your dissatisfaction on the article's current Talk page - WP:BRD - "The first person to start a discussion is the person who is best following BRD". Secondly, let us look at the in-line wording of your 'justification' - " Detailed timeline not needed" = your POV - not only that, but this 'need' was agreed to by multiple editors over two years ago when the article's scope and title changes were being discussed. Next, your "... what is important is the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza" = more POV. The fact is that I was following the recommendations resulting from detailed Talk discussions, including by veteran editors, that the best place to start a background 'chain-of-events' description on Israel-Palestine bellicose events is to go back to a point where a ceasefire commitment was made by all of the major players, and with 4 such players participating then, that point was in February 2005 when Israel, the PA, Hamas and IJ all committed .... and you have just reverted what I call a 'blank-slate-moment' into oblivion based on your two POVs. I respectfully reiterate that, should you wish to continue with that contrarian viewpoint, you should discuss your opposing position on Talk first. I would like to invite you to confirm with Kingsindian that the claims as to discussions that I made here are valid, should you doubt me. If there is a 'no' to both of these suggestions on how to amicably solve our differences, since I don't like 1RR dangling over me, could you please reverse your edit. Erictheenquirer (talk) 11:29, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

1. Your first edit on additional background information on the 2005 withdrawal was simply not needed in the 2014 Gaza conflict article - you masked the rather important thing of note that happened in 2005 - the Israeli withdrawal.
2. Your second edit was filled with unsubstantiated and POV assertions - that Israel was acting illegally regarding various restrictions imposed on Gaza following Gazan bellicosity. If you care to expand that someone or some body found these actions illegal - that perhaps could be done in an appropriate context - it is not appropriate to state illegal multiple times in a paragraph on various actions, while not for instance placing illegal next to rocket fire or other Gazan actions.Icewhiz (talk) 15:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
1) So, on the first point you ignore the 2014 discussions and simply repeat your POV about 'not needed' - absolutely no substantiation. A clear case of POV-pushing.
2) The Diakonia report that I cited concluded - "As such, the enforcement of the “buffer zone” under the current circumstances and scope is unlawful", so I cannot see your point about 'unsubstantiated' and 'POV assertions'. But you are correct that it does not accuse Israel's unilateral restriction on Gaza's territorial water as illegal. I will add the following citations which do exactly that, one from Al-Haq - "... Israel's continued illegal closure of Palestine's maritime waters", one from Electronic Intifada - "... support and profit from Israel’s continued illegal closure of Palestinian maritime waters", and one from The Guardian - "... part of Israel's illegal collective punishment and closure of Gaza, and one from UNRWA which covers all of them - "... the illegal blockade on land, air and sea"
3) I did not intend to delete the remainder of that paragraph - that was an unintentional error, so I will make the above additions, taking care not to delete the 'withdrawal' part. With that I believe that I have addressed all your concerns in 2).
1. Regarding the lead - the previous text was better in that it was more concise and didn't drown out the actual withdrawal with unneeded and not really connected information (the earlier Feb 2005 ceasefire with Abbas - who has become irrelevant in the strip).
2. Any assertions of illegality must be attributed - according to X/Y/Z (e.g. "with is a violation of international humanitarian law according to group X"). Note that if this is a pro-Palestinian HR org, such an allegation is routine and really should be given all that much weight in an intro here.Icewhiz (talk) 16:58, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
Please supply WP:RS for these on-going POVs.

Stating second Intifada end-date in lead[edit]

@Mhhossein: - the end-date of 8 Feb 2005 for the Second Intifada is actually un-sourced currently (though one could find a source for this assertion). It is also not entirely correct in a number of respects:

  1. The actual end-date of Intifada-2 is disputed (as you may see in that article) - this is not a POV dispute as far as I can tell - more a question of pinning an exact date - with opinions ranging from the death of Arafat in the end of 2004, to the Israeli disengagement in Aug 2005.
  2. Hamas and Islamic Jihad did not exactly commit to a ceasefire in Feb 2005 - as you may see here - Sharm El Sheikh Summit of 2005 and Second Intifada#End of the Intifada - they made a one-sided and limited declaration.
  3. The current text seems to imply that the disengagement plan is a result of the ceasefire with the PA. However the Israeli disengagement from Gaza was proposed in 2003, adopted by Israeli government decision in June 2004, formally accepted by the Knesset in Feb 2005, and implemented in Aug 2005 - so no - this did not quite flow from the Sharm El Sheikh Summit.

However, all the above being said (which could be rectified by expanding the whole thing into a paragraph with proper sourcing and differing opinions, proving a chronology for the disengagement plan, stating Hamas & Islamic Jihad limited one-sided ceasefire, etc.), it is not really needed in an article on the 2014 Gaza conflict - the key event here is the Israeli disengagement (and following blockade etc.) from Gaza - not technicalities around the end-date of Intifada2. Instead of correcting the sentence - I propose we remove it as it simply isn't too relevant for the 2014 conflict.Icewhiz (talk) 06:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

The fifth time this POV has been repeated, still with no WP:RS support being provided Erictheenquirer (talk) 08:14, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I stated that the end-date of Intifada2 is NOT a POV dispute - to the best of my knowledge. It is in dispute as it didn't "end neatly" - there was a downturn in violence from the end of 2004 (Arafat's demise and Abbas's takeover of power) - and a more or less complete stop by 2006. Feb 2005 has been noted by many as a possible end-date. Others, from various camps, place other dates or don't specify a definite date (beyond a range). In this particular case - as we already have a well-developed article on Intifada2 - I referred to the text there and the sources contained therein - I am happy to copy-paste them here, if this is the problem.Icewhiz (talk) 08:22, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Strawman. The POV I referred to was the endlessly repeated "not needed" Erictheenquirer (talk) 08:25, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
With your insertion of the Ruth Tenne source, you have given your approval to the International Socialist as WP:RS. That it might have been used previously does not alter that. Interesting. Erictheenquirer (talk) 08:30, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
And with the added text from the Tenne piece, can I also presume that you are not longer against 'dilution' of the withdrawal portion of the sub-section, something that you previously vehemently opposed? Just seeking clarity, since I might want to add more, e.g. Israeli violations of the ceasefire. Please decide ... Tenne goes, or we add more for balance. Erictheenquirer (talk) 08:35, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Just for clarity, the International Socialism site promotes worker's power and 'revolution not reform.
1. I merely copied the sources from Second Intifada#End of the Intifada -- the end-date is a matter of opinion not fact, and opinions may be sourced from non-RS - so no I did not assert any recognition of International Socialist as an RS beyond the author's opinion. We could source additional opinions - but I didn't think this article should be greater in scope/detail than the Intifada2 article.
2. I still think this should go - not because WP:RS don't exist for possible end-dates - but since this goes into a level of detail that is simply not relevant, for editorial reasons, for the 2014 conflict. "not needed" is not a POV assertion here - but an editorial one. Since there was support by you and Mhhossein to keep the Feb 2005 as an end-date - I corrected/expanded this so that sources are properly reflected. However - I still think this should go - just as I think we should not go back to 1918, 1929, 1948, 1967, 1987, etc. in this article.Icewhiz (talk) 08:43, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I can sympathise with 'merely copying' but when in a detailed discussion, it is wise to check-check-check. I just checked. Tenne's article does not remotely support your added text about continued suicide bombings after Feb 2005, nor does the Plocker article with which you accompanied Tenne as a purported supporting citation. I feel a WP:BOLD approaching. Erictheenquirer (talk) 09:03, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I linked to the list of suicide bombings in 2005. I can of course supply a whole list of refs for each one - however this is really a level of detail that is out of scope here. Your assertion of bringing to an end the suicide bombing - was simply factually wrong.Icewhiz (talk) 09:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC) Actually Schachter supports this - and is misrepresented by the text currently. Correcting.Icewhiz (talk) 09:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
So you intend to leave the two misleading citations in place??!! But in addition, with your "Your assertion of bringing to an end the suicide bombing - was simply factually wrong" and, yes, Schechter DOES take the continuing suicide bombings into account, but he concludes that: "In the years since 2005, the number of attempted attacks has fluctuated, but has not returned to 2004 levels. At the same time, the number of successful attacks has continued to drop, to six in 2006, one in both 2007 and 2008, and zero in 2009. One can argue whether the second intifada ended in 2005, but the widespread suicide bombings associated with it clearly did." So I must conclude that it is not me who is wrong. You have still not addressed why I should not add balancing text of Israeli violations post-Feb 2005. My suggestion, once again, remove the 'bloat' of post-Feb attacks by Islamic Jihad and the Tenne/Plocker non-citations. Erictheenquirer (talk) 09:18, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Which citations? The other two opinions? I don't see a problem leaving them. Don't see a problem cutting them out - as Shachtar actually lays out the different views in his Intro. Shachtar supports a 2005 end-date (indeterminate - based on reduction of numbers in 2005 and further reduction in 2006) - he does not support a Feb 2005 end-date (which is the opinion of others, which he recognizes - as well as other opinions ranging from the end of 2004 through not ending as of 2010 (the paper being written)). My opinion is that the entire paragraph should go - the opinions regarding the exact end of Intifada2 is not relevant to this article - the relevant background is the withdrawal and following Hamas takeover - not a conflict that ended (according to most) approx. 9 years (per different opinions) prior.Icewhiz (talk) 09:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 August 2017[edit]

I would like to ask if somebody could expand the blue link in this section, following patterns of other internal links, so it won't be a single word. At the end of the third paragraph: "Hamas preempted the coup and took complete power by force." Currently only the word "took" is marked, which in my opinion is aesthetically ugly.--186.153.64.200 (talk) 10:08, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Done.Icewhiz (talk) 10:21, 13 August 2017 (UTC)