Talk:21 Savage

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Don't think the 10/22/1994 DOB is accurate[edit]

While this may not be a passable source, I tend to believe the birthdate (10/22/1992) listed therein is accurate. A reasonably credible source, XXL Magazine, corroborated that he was born earlier than 1994 by listing his age as 22 in an interview from 10/9/2015.

Furthermore, he has a song that refers to events that happened "when I was 21" that was on YouTube on what would have been before his 21st birthday (7/3/2015) if the 1994 date were accurate. He also sent out a tweet on his last birthday (his 21st if the 1994 date were accurate) implying that he was older than 21.

Given these context clues, I went ahead and changed the birthday year to 1992 (with the same date) and sourced the XXL interview.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by DJ11 (talkcontribs) 23:05, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

http://jnryfirst.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Musicinfo1989 (talkcontribs) 11:31, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/ice-arrests-rapper-21-savage-says-hes-actually-from-uk/914024181 — Preceding unsigned comment added by HrBz7TM74PhxgzW (talkcontribs) 20:51, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
don’t think he was born in the US — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:5:803::7f (talk) 21:14, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2019[edit]

21 savage is from UK 12.158.56.242 (talk) 21:40, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DannyS712 (talk) 21:45, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47111577 - the BBC just released a report on this, referencing this article, which is probably where all these IP's are coming from -- NoCOBOL (talk) 22:01, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 Partly done: The article now states that 21 Savage is based (not born) in Atlanta, and mentions the UK citizenship allegations. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 09:09, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2019[edit]

Change his birthplace to London U.K 134.41.174.51 (talk) 21:47, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Not done We need a reliable source for his birth place before we can change it here. IffyChat -- 21:56, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

I think the ICE is a pretty reliable source... 21savlol (talk) 22:51, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2019[edit]

As 21 Savage is not an American citizen, his race should be stated as Afro-Caribbean, not African American. Whitegirl666 (talk) 21:58, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

 Partly done: The article no longer describes 21 Savage as African American. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 09:27, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Article rewrite[edit]

It appears that a lot of what is here is fictional. He's not even a US citizen. A lot of rewriting will be needed. -- That Guy, From That Show! 22:08, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

We don't know everything yet. We must wait for further details or another statement from the ICE people to make definitive edits. 21 is still in custody at the time of writing. The brave celery (talk) 22:23, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

To say we need more information is a slap in the face to anyone who believes in reliable sources. This isn't some random allegation coming from one individual person, this is a clear indictment from the agency responsible for determining who is and is not a legal resident and citizen of The United States of America. 21 Savage is apparently not in fact Atlanta born, nor is he even American. He's a man who pretended to be those things, while actually being from the U.K. To call this a rumor or something that needs more evidence is laughable. He would not be detained by ICE in the first place if he were an American born citizen (let alone a celebrity). To quote an unnamed official interviewed by CNN's Nick Valencia (one of their most reliable reporters and someone with extensive contacts in ICE), "His whole public persona is false. He actually came to the U.S. from the U.K. as a teen and overstayed his visa." [1] He'll be back in the U.K. by the time his fans face the truth, and they'll still be denying it here on wikipedia. Bit sick of the selective control on this site thanks to fans and partisans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.242.43 (talk) 23:22, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, that escalated quickly. --2A00:23C4:3E0F:4400:ECC7:115C:D4F3:C0A6 (talk) 00:19, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm not denying his apparent status but we do not know yet whether we need a total rewrite. We are not yet absolutely certain whether he will be deported. The brave celery (talk) 00:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

ICE is not a trustworthy source you nerd [2] you're basically quoting the Gestapo — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blabalbla142 (talkcontribs) 06:34, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

References

How can anyone compare ICE to Gestapo? Since when could an organization existing simply to please Republican ideals rather than to remove actual dangerous illegal immigrants be compared to an elitist organization aimed at persecution of Jews?

Anyway, innocent until proven guilty. None of the Suburban-driving weasels at ICE have a modicum of common sense anyway.

Thanks for getting this wiki banned, 8th graders. The amount of gibberish I have seen written on this site in the last 24 hours.... beggars’ belief.

Vbolt1 (talk) 22:04, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Remove section on early life[edit]

I have already adjusted the lead to omit statements that may be in dispute and that are only backed by primary sources, but I don't want to be too bold by removing an entire section without consultation.

What I am proposing doing is removing the entire early life section until reliable sources can be found to back anything included therein - at the moment, all the sources are based on interviews or are interviews with him, and so to lean on the side of caution can not be considered currently reliable sources in terms of Wikipedia policy. -- NoCOBOL (talk) 23:50, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

21 Savage's lawyer told an Atlanta TV news reporter that 21 went to middle school and high school in ATL. He could have come here during his school-time and enrolled in an ATL school. Just putting this somewhere for reference. https://twitter.com/MarkWinneWSB/status/1092205127300194316 The brave celery (talk) 01:08, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

I added the info from the tweet linked above into the early life section. Flop453 (talk) 06:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

If middle school in the Florida ends before age 14 (? - when is he alleged to have arrived in the US?) then we have to consider that statement a contentious one from a primary source - the issues in the other sources continue in it, perhaps even more strongly than the others. -- NoCOBOL (talk) 08:04, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

I removed the info as WSB-TV has not used it in their published news articles about the incident. Flop453 (talk) 09:31, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

His birth in Newham, London in 1992 is confirmed in the England & Wales Civil Registration Birth Index 1916-2007, available via ancestry.com, with the correct spelling of his given name: Name: Sheyaa Bin Abraham / Registration Date: 1992 / Registration district: Newham / Inferred County: Greater London / Re-registration Year: 1992 / Mother's Maiden Name: Joseph / Volume Number: 15 / Page Number: 2388 Sah10406 (talk) 13:27, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

USER:Ealuscerwen, can we discuss this here? If you look at those sources, you will see that almost without exception they are considered Primary Sources and thus not relevant for use. Also, USER:Sah10406, ancestry.com is considered unreliable per WP:RSP, and though in that case it appears to merely be the use of primary document, which can be acceptable, I would suggest we hold off on including that as we cannot confirm that the individual on that document is the individual here. -- NoCOBOL (talk) 15:42, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Oh, and the section I removed contains a WP:BLPCRIME violation; we cannot state that he came from the United Kingdom, we can only state that he is alleged to have come from there and his status is disputed. -- NoCOBOL (talk) 15:46, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019[edit]

21 Savage is actually from the UK. His favorite beverage is Lean mixed with Tea. 71.92.37.16 (talk) 03:49, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

 Partly done: The article now states that 21 Savage is based (not born) in Atlanta, and mentions the UK citizenship allegations. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 09:11, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019[edit]

ChANGE ORIGIN FROM ATLANTA TO GREAT BRITAIN. 172.92.231.78 (talk) 04:18, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

 Partly done: The article now states that 21 Savage is based (not born) in Atlanta, and mentions the UK citizenship allegations. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 09:11, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019[edit]

I believe 21 Savage was born in Newham, London, England. His birth record is here: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV4Y-7SBG. Kiwiorange (talk) 05:24, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

 Partly done: The article now states that 21 Savage is based (not born) in Atlanta, and mentions the UK citizenship allegations. Unfortunately, FamilySearch (RSP entry) isn't considered a reliable source, so we can't use details from the birth record. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 09:13, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019[edit]

Change “21 savage was born in Atlanta Georgia to somewhere in the United Kingdom” 2603:900A:140C:8B00:6037:CF6A:48AA:954B (talk) 06:50, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

 Partly done: The article now states that 21 Savage is based (not born) in Atlanta, and mentions the UK citizenship allegations. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 09:18, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

"A drug deal gone haywire"[edit]

In describing the shooting death of this man's brother, the term "a drug deal gone haywire" sounds unprofessional. "Haywire" is a joking term, referring to the way a wire that holds a bale of hay under tension will, when cut, spring about unpredictably. It is not a proper way to refer to criminal activities. Elsewhere in the article, it is stated that " his brother Johnny "Tay-Man" Abraham-Joseph was killed during an attempted robbery." Please reconcile these illogical fragments of pseudo-reportage into a coherent narrative. 75.101.104.17 (talk) 10:35, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019[edit]

Please add that he legally entered the U.S. in July 2005, and that his visa expired one year later https://www.spin.com/2019/02/21-savage-arrested-ice-british-citizen/ 71.169.177.99 (talk) 10:44, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done
This information is now in the article (although a different source is cited, and the article says this information is what ICE officials have said rather than being unquestioned fact). —BarrelProof (talk) 14:42, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019[edit]

In Early Life, change "In July 2005, Abraham-Joseph moved to the United States." to "ICE alleges that in July 2005, Abraham-Joseph moved to the United States." ICE has not provided any evidence for this beyond alleging it, nor has a judge ruled on what is being alleged. 108.5.118.40 (talk) 13:03, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done
The article now describes the alleged move to the United States in July 2005 as something that ICE officials have said, not as an undisputed fact. However, I have not noticed any dispute about whether this information is true or not. Has it been disputed by anyone in reliable sources? —BarrelProof (talk) 14:49, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Even if it hasn't been disputed, per WP:BLPCRIME we should list it as accused or similar (as it is now) until the situation is resolved in either direction. Alternatively, if there is a reliable source that states that the individual in question has conceded that he was born in the UK, then we can change it to an outright statement of fact. -- NoCOBOL (talk) 15:12, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019[edit]

He is American 185.200.214.177 (talk) 18:17, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

  • Not done Not according to his birth certificate, or so it appears. Black Kite (talk) 19:52, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Dating conventions[edit]

We need to change the dating conventions from the American [Month] [Day], [Year] to the British-styled [Day] [Month] [Year]. ie 22 October 1992. TrailBlzr (talk) 19:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

  • Not really. Even if he was born in the UK, he's completely associated with the USA. Black Kite (talk) 19:55, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
    • Agreed with above, just because he was born in the UK doesn't mean we should use that styling. Nice4What (talk) 21:06, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Nationality[edit]

why is it a debate over what nationality he is, he’s not legal in the states or anywhere but england, so he’s british EveryonesFAVORITE*toy (talk) 21:25, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Also legal in Scotland; Wales; and Northern Ireland, the 3 other countries that make up the United Kingdom, along with England. TrailBlzr (talk) 07:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
21 has never publicly identified as being British, which is how we use nationality as a description for other biographies. Nice4What (talk) 22:55, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
This is false. We use the formal legal definition of Nationality on Wikipedia, not how people choose to publicly identify. ForgotMyPW (talk) 23:12, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
This is correct. WP:NATIONALITY states that “The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.” That being said, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to include his time in the US in the lead as well, given how much coverage and attention that it has caused. OhKayeSierra (talk) 23:32, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Why not just stick his birthplace in and leave the rest of the sentence? "Shéyaa Bin Abraham-Joseph (born October 22, 1992 in London, United Kingdom), better known by his stage name 21 Savage, is a rapper, songwriter, and record producer based in Atlanta, Georgia." Black Kite (talk) 00:04, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Birth date and place advises against doing such a thing, and I'd generally agree, it looks a bit much crammed in there. I would lean towards describing him as a British-born rapper, since it appears objectively true. Nohomersryan (talk) 00:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
All the evidence that we have (birth certificate, statement from his lawyers, etc.) clearly shows that he is a British national and only a British national, which makes him British. There seems to be only one editor who is resisting this reality. I support "British-born..." as a compromise if a compromise even needs to be found. Vdjj1960 (talk) 03:08, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Is there a head count of how many editors oppose calling him "a British rapper"? I figured there was consensus before now, but it really doesn't appear to have been discussed at all. Nohomersryan (talk) 03:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

So far, no legitimate reason has been brought forth to omit his nationality here. I think this edit can safely be made ForgotMyPW (talk) 05:20, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
No one has ever called him a British rapper and they way rappers are responding to this story, they still claim him as an ATLien. Not even the BBC is calling him that; they have questions too. Either no nationality or the correct one, and at this point in time that is unknown. UK laws are different that US laws. Don’t let controversy cloud your minds to start disrupting Wikipedia. Trillfendi (talk) 22:34, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what anyone else calls him since we use the legal definition of nationality on Wikipedia. All the current evidence (birth certificate, ICE officials, British Foreign Office) points to him being a British man, born in the U.K. to British parents. ForgotMyPW (talk) 00:08, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Once again, British nationality law differs signifcantly from America’s. The UK is not a jus soli country at all. His lawyers claim ICE has it all wrong because he actually came here at age 7, so what the hell would we know. Hell, for years y’all had him as born in Atlanta with nothing to verify it but his word. Trillfendi (talk) 04:07, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
We don't need to interpret the nationality laws ourselves since all sources agree with him being a British national (birth certificate, ICE officials, British Foreign Office, his own spokesperson). Whether he came to the United States at age 7 or age 12 does not affect this at all. If have any credible, up-to-date sources that dispute the fact that he is a British national, please cite them. 129.97.124.29 (talk) 00:38, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
I’m not going to go into a spiel about why DREAMers call themselves “American” just because they grew up here but don’t have the proper identification papers... ICE agent Cox says he doesn’t know if Savage qualifies for DACA protection or not.[1] The fact remains, Savage calls himself “African-American”, not Black British, (and his lawyers never described him as such in any statement, they said he is “Atlanta based” who happens to be born in the UK) and it’s not our place to be the State Department. All these years y’all called him “American rapper” on this website without question, and frankly we should respect his identity the same way we have to do with any other article. We don’t know his legal situation. All we know is he has a pending U visa. Trillfendi (talk) 06:41, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
From the day his visa expired to the day ICE issued a Notice to Appear, he was in the U.S. unlawfully. He can only apply for cancellation of removal or a waiver of inadmissibility under 8 U.S.C. § 1182(h). Regarding his nationality, if he ever claimed U.S. citizenship, that by itself is a removable offense.

Any alien who falsely represents, or has falsely represented, himself to be a citizen of the United States for any purpose or benefit under this chapter (including section 1324a of this title) or any Federal or State law is deportable.[1] [2]

An alien in the United States is every person who is neither a U.S. citizen nor a U.S. national. 21 Savage is an alien. U.S. immigration law equally applies to everyone. Even Charles, Prince of Wales, will be deported from the U.S. if he were to do what 21 Savage did, unless "a full and unconditional pardon" is obtained pursuant to 8 U.S.C. § 1227(a)(2)(A)(iv).[3]--Libracarol (talk) 10:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
It doesn't seem entirely clear to me whether this discussion is about the opening sentence or the infobox or some other part of the article. If it is about the opening sentence, please note that some related (and subsequent) comments are found in another section of this Talk page, entitled "Protected edit request on 6 February 2019". I personally don't think it is necessary or appropriate to attempt to assign a demonym adjective to him in the opening sentence, as that would oversimplify the situation. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:44, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
Since the idea just came up in someone's edit, I also don't perceive a consensus to refer to him as "a British-American rapper". As the article on that topic says, the term "British-American" generally refers to someone who is American that is ancestrally British or to someone who holds dual citizenship. Basically, "British-American" is a subcategory of "American", and I see no consensus to describe him as American. He was not born in the U.S. and is not an American citizen and it is not even clear that he is eligible to become an American citizen. Spending a lot of time in the United States does not necessarily make someone an American. I think it is unnecessary and inaccurate to attempt to apply any such adjective to him in the opening sentence; that just oversimplifies a complex situation. His status is described much more clearly a few sentences later. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:40, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
That’s why demonyms should be removed completely until further notice. No one was calling this man British even 2 weeks ago; for years reliable sources referred to him as American. It’s certainly not as if this administration is going to even address DACA. Anyone can have an American ethos but the law hasn’t changed yet. They’re more focused on the Wall™ than visa misuse. The man is in a situation with multiple complex and unknown factors simply out of his control. We obviously don’t know them either. So for now, it should be left the way it is. Stateless. Trillfendi (talk) 23:15, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

References

Per WP:MOSBIO, we use his legal nationality. It is not ambiguous - several reliable sources state that he is a British citizen. And it is definitely notable given recent events. --hippo43 (talk) 10:11, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@Hippo43: Can you point to where you found this in MOSBIO? All I could find was one mention of nationality in the MOS:OPENPARABIO section: The opening paragraph should usually state… (3) Context (location or nationality). I can't find a mention of "legal nationality". Instead, MOSBIO seems to give the option of usually providing "location" or "nationality". Airplaneman 18:51, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

“Damn, I love my house, I ain’t gonna be able to go in my house no more? I ain’t gonna be able to go to my favorite restaurant that I been going to for 20 years straight? That’s the most important thing. If you tell me, I’ll give you 20 million to go stay somewhere you ain’t never stayed, I’d rather be broke. I’ll sit in jail to fight to live where I’ve been living my whole life.” — 21 Savage told the New York Times

If that’s not clear enough then what is. 3 weeks ago “reliable” sources called him American. If anything, call this man British-born and call it a damn day. Trillfendi (talk) 19:23, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
@Airplaneman: I'm paraphrasing the part you're referring to. "In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident." Per reliable sources, we know he is a British citizen/national. We don't know if he is a permanent resident anywhere.
@Trillfendi: The fact that he wants to stay in America doesn't make him not British. 'British-born' is not a nationality, and is not clear. Does it mean he was born British, or born in Britain? Does it mean he was born British but isn't British any more?
There's no good reason not to just use the facts - British nationality, based in Atlanta. --hippo43 (talk) 05:21, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
It is clear from the continuing Talk page discussion that there is still no consensus to call him a British rapper in the opening sentence. Legal citizenship does not provide an adequate description of personal identity in this case. No national adjective is necessary in the opening sentence. MOS:BIO does not say we need to use such an adjective. His relationship to the two countries is described much more clearly a few sentences later. MOS:BIO says "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or ..." This isn't most cases. In this case, the "context for the activities that made this person notable" are the context of his life in Atlanta, Georgia, not Britain. —BarrelProof (talk) 05:29, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2019[edit]

24.242.240.221 (talk) 00:27, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Oy mate...lemme edit this Sir Savage the 21st article

No. You do not get the privilege to edit this article. We do it for you. What do you want to edit? dannymusiceditor oops 00:39, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. DannyS712 (talk) 00:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Name[edit]

His birth name keeps getting changed. Before the controversy it was "Shayaa", then it was "Sha Yaa", then on the birth certificate it was "Sheyaa" with a diacritic, and his sister spelled his name "Shaayaa" on Twitter with no space and two "A"s after the "H". Which is correct? Can we sort this part out once and for all? The brave celery (talk) 00:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

reliability of wikpedia[edit]

that just goes to show you how reliable the information on wikpedia is. for years, wikipedia falsely claimed savage 21 was from atlanta when he was actually british — Preceding unsigned comment added by I3432432432423 (talkcontribs) 05:11, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

  • And Wikipedia was supposed to know something 99% of people didn't? Nohomersryan (talk) 05:28, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Because he’s been saying he’s from Atlanta for years—USE YOUR BRAIN. For years, Wikipedia also had French Montana as an American citizen and that didn’t officially happen until summer 2018. Trillfendi (talk) 22:27, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

English rapper not "British" rapper[edit]

I look at articles like, Sam Smith, James Blake, Giggs and Skepta, all have the word "English" in them instead of the word "British". I think English rapper or English-born rapper sounds more appropriate. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 02:55, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

  • The article doesn't say anything like that right now, but that sounds correct. MF Doom's article uses English-born, and he's the closest parallel to 21 I can think of. Nohomersryan (talk) 09:08, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
@Nohomersryan: What I mean is, if we gonna change 21 Savage's nationality based on current events, at least use a more correct term. Personally I don't really care about this news but editors and IP editors keep adding "British" in 21 Savage-related articles, like Issa Album and Without Warning. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 03:26, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Oh, ok. Yeah I did see British rapper pop up in a few articles there. I don't know for sure if Wikipedia discourages it, since if you search "song by British rapper" you'll find countless articles using that phrase. English rapper appears slightly more common, and it's what I'd go with myself if there's no strict guideline. Nohomersryan (talk) 09:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
@Nohomersryan: There's probably no strict guideline of the word "British", but England can be considered as a country by itself. Which probably why most editors don't use the word "British" in English people-related articles. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 04:45, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
@TheAmazingPeanuts: Actually, I believe British is preferred only when referring to a group which has people from multiple parts of the UK. A prominent example would be Mumford & Sons, where two of its members were born in/hold citizenship outside of England, Scotland, Wales, or Ireland. At least, that's what I seem to understand from looking up the difference between "English" and "British". 21 Savage obviously doesn't hold citizenship here in the States so I think English is the correct term. Or maybe if someone carries citizenship in multiple individual parts of the UK? Is that how it works over there or not? Someone from there should enlighten my American mind on that, but I digress because it doesn't appear to be the case for Sav anyway. dannymusiceditor oops 02:07, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
@DannyMusicEditor: My main issue is editors keep changing 21 Savage's nationality back and forth without requesting a RfC first. Airplaneman did the right thing to lock the article because editors keep edit warring. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 21:54, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
When it is unlocked, British should be removed. There is no consensus to have that any nationality there now; the last editor to restore this, Vdjj1960, did not have consensus and seems to think it's a "common sense issue" when controversial issues are hardly ever that simple. Ss112 09:07, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
@Ss112: I agreed the word "British" should be removed off the article, there was never a consensus on it anyway. And you could ask Ad Orientem to remove the word off the first sentence for you. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 15:00, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm not tinkering with this until/unless we have a consensus. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:10, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm good with that. How many people do you want, Ad Orientem? dannymusiceditor oops 04:23, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Open a formal discussion on the question and we will see where things stand tomorrow evening. I suggest at the bottom of the page. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

If you insist. I don't see the issue in just taking that here if we had a few more but I won't really fight it either. dannymusiceditor oops 04:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
English-born is definitely a much more appropriate and uncontroversial moniker for him, given that he has lived in the US since childhood. Insisting that he is British, when he has been living in Atlanta for the vast majority of his life, comes off as odd and unjustified. It's what MF Doom has been described as on his Wikipedia page for ages. R3troguy420 (talk) 13:54, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I agree with R3troguy420, someone should put British-born instead of British, since he is basically from Atlanta. I think the question is whether to call an undocumented immigrant American or not. I would say in Savage's case, since he has lived in America since he was 7 and has deep roots in Atlanta regardless of his Britishness, we should call him Americans. Aren't Dreamers considered American? He was brought here when he was 6, I think he counts as a Dreamer. C1MM (talk) 22:55, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Place of origin[edit]

In the box at right it says under origin: Georgia. Isn't that deceptive, as he is from England?Dogru144 (talk) 08:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

  • No, the origin template is generally meant for where a person is raised, or a place of special significance to their music career. I am fairly certain 21 wasn't involved in the music scene as a child in the UK. Nohomersryan (talk) 09:06, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
  • very deceptive. I feel it should be changed mate 2603:3020:707:4500:6909:BF28:49FF:8BF8 (talk) 21:11, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
How hard is it for people to understand that “origin” means where their career started, not their place of birth. J. Cole’s origin is New York City even though he’s from Fayetteville, NC. Trillfendi (talk) 22:17, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

FWIW, as a mostly-reader of Wikipedia, I wouldn't have known "origin" as where their career started, either. "Career start:" might be a better way of saying it? Perhaps this case and several others illustrates the need for more precise wording in the sidebar boxes? --65.36.83.87 (talk) 01:46, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

  • According to Wikipedia’s policy, origin means:

    The town, city etc., from which the group or musician originated (that is, the place where the group was founded, or where individual performer started their career, should it not match the location of their birth). If the place is not known, specify at least the country. Do not add a flag icon. Omit the country if it does not differ from that specified at the field "birth_place".

While it was presumed that he was born in Atlanta, Georgia, the origin wasn’t really necessary but it was still there anyway even before this controversy started. Trillfendi (talk) 03:59, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Place of birth and other names?[edit]

I don't think his place of birth should be stated as London, England yet since there don't seem to be any reliable sources currently that indicate it. Only claims by ICE and a purported birth certificate that we don't know if it's truly his. The source currently cited is just a news article on his purported birth certificate, which hasn't been confirmed for sure if I'm not mistaken.

Also why is there just 4 different spellings of his first name and combinations of his parents' last names listed as his "other names"? That's the same name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.199.203.196 (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Arrest records have always given his name as Shayaa Joseph.... Also, we shouldn’t be going off that birth certificate for it’s obvious invasion of privacy, original research, and the fact that British nationality law changed in 1983. British national aren’t automatically entitled to passports either. Trillfendi (talk) 22:25, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
USER:Ealuscerwen Completely agreed. Now he's also apparently a British rapper. Jesus, someone who knows what they're doing needs to sort this article out — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.199.203.196 (talk) 15:03, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 5 February 2019[edit]

Add that his lawyers have confirmed his birth is England but that he applied for another visa in '17. ColorTheoryRGB CMYK 23:50, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

There are a bunch of sources out there about his U visa status 1 but since y’all don’t know how to act y’all got the page fully protected for a week.Trillfendi (talk) 03:50, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 February 2019[edit]

Born in East London United Kingdom 2A00:23C4:CC91:1101:3861:969E:9E2C:E90 (talk) 00:44, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 February 2019[edit]

This article erroneously calls 21 Savage as British again. Being born in Britain doesn't automatically mean you're a British citizen, and 21 Savage living most of his teenage/grown life outside Britain certainly suggests he shouldn't be categorized as British despite the recent controversy about his immigration status. If you asked him where he's "from," my guess is you'd still get "Atlanta." Please fix this in the first paragraph. 65.36.83.87 (talk) 01:44, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, there was a dispute of including "British" in the lead sentence before the page was locked. I recommend it be removed for now. Nice4What (talk) 03:13, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Being that he’s been in America for 21 years (God, the irony) of his life, I don’t think British is the right demonym to describe him. He identifies as American even though his citizenship is questionable. No different than any of the millions of DREAMers. Trillfendi (talk) 03:52, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Feelings are not legally binding. I am not American but I have looked up the DREAM Act and it says that people who are applicable for it can gain permanent residency i.e. become a legal migrant. So they're not American either. Next 79.74.182.130 (talk) 13:51, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
1) The DREAM Act and DACA are two different things... DACA recipients are simply called DREAMers. 2) The man calls HIMSELF African-American, not me. 3) ICE admits they don’t know whether he qualifies for DACA, which is on the verge of expiration anyway. 4) He has a pending U visa. So try again.... Trillfendi (talk) 17:14, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
I agree that it is not appropriate for the opening sentence of the article to say "... is a British rapper, songwriter, and record producer ...", and I don't really see anyone expressing the opinion that it should say that. He has spent relatively little of his life in Britain, and basically has no association with Britain other than as a matter of law and birthplace. I don't think it is necessary to use any demonym in that sentence. I agree that he shouldn't be called American either – I just think it is unnecessary (and basically not appropriate) to put either demonym in that sentence. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:30, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Please move this discussion to the "Nationality" section. 129.97.125.1 (talk) 09:18, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
 Already done "British" has already been removed from the lead as of this time stamp. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:30, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

@Jakefighter09: Edits like this and this are exactly why I protected the article in the first place. Instead of arguing through hidden comments in the article, at least try to discuss things here. Airplaneman 20:56, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

As previously suggested by 129.97.125.1, it might be best for the discussion to continue in the #Nationality section rather than here (although discussion anywhere on the Talk page is better than edit warring). —BarrelProof (talk) 21:14, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 February 2019[edit]

Please add the following statement from 21's legal team: https://www.complex.com/music/2019/02/21-savage-legal-team-statement-clarifying-residency-situation The brave celery (talk) 03:15, 6 February 2019 (UTC) The brave celery

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. — JJMC89(T·C) 07:01, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 February 2019[edit]

Shéyaa Bin Abraham doesn't need to be in other names because it's already on his birth name Michael14375 (talk) 09:10, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

 Donexaosflux Talk 16:01, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 February 2019[edit]

Please add the category "People from Plaistow, Newham". It is sourced in the infobox that this is his precise birthplace. 79.74.182.130 (talk) 13:46, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

 Donexaosflux Talk 15:59, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 February 2019[edit]

change "21 Savage" to "21 Banter" 2001:700:300:4008:5156:5F18:C85B:3EC8 (talk) 15:46, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Not done No rationale and no citations to reliable sources provided. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:26, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 February 2019[edit]

Change the place of birth from Atlanta, Georgia to Newham, United Kingdom. 86.132.198.158 (talk) 20:23, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:23, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 February 2019: typo[edit]

Note: Multiple edit requests regarding the same typo have been merged into one section to aid navigability. Airplaneman 00:24, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

There is a typo in the legal issues section, it currently says "Joseph had not attempted to hide his backgroundm," 12.44.27.99 (talk) 15:59, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

This bit 21_Savage#Legal_issues. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 18:52, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 Done Airplaneman 02:19, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

In the legal issues section change the typo backgroundm to background. 97.65.3.141 (talk) 20:31, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done Airplaneman 02:18, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Typo (background) Error: However, his attorney claimed that Abraham-Joseph had not attempted to hide his backgroundm..... Correct However, his attorney claimed that Abraham-Joseph had not attempted to hide his background..... 208.91.114.4 (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done Airplaneman 02:17, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Under "Personal Life" > "Legal Issues", the last sentence of the paragraph has a spelling error. Change "backgroundm" to "background" 71.105.69.117 (talk) 00:05, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done Thank you. Airplaneman 02:17, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 7 February 2019 (clarify him as English-born rather than British)[edit]

Change "is a British rapper, songwriter, and record producer from Atlanta, Georgia." in the opening paragraph to "is an English-born rapper, songwriter, and record producer from Atlanta, Georgia." Given the fact that he has spent the majority of his life in the United States, having lived in Atlanta since childhood, it would not be fair to describe him as British, it being more accurate and fair to desribe him as English-born or British-born. MF Doom, being similarly born in Britain and raised in the United States, though still exclusively holding British citizenship, is described by his Wikipedia article in the same way. R3troguy420 (talk) 00:35, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Not done As you can see, this point is currently being argued about. You may contribute above. dannymusiceditor oops 04:24, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request[edit]

British in the lead sentence needs to be disambiguated.Onel5969 TT me 13:37, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

21 Savage came to the US at age 7, not age 12[edit]

Currently, this article states that 21 came to the US at age 12 with his parents, but yesterday his legal team came out with a statement saying that he came at age 7, and that he only returned to England at age 12 for a month, as a brief visit rather than that being his first time coming here. There's this source: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/21-savage-arrived-age-7-born-in-uk-790498/ and also this source: https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/21-savage-has-lived-in-the-us-since-age-7-attorney-says/915438742. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shivj80 (talkcontribs) 18:13, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 7 February 2019[edit]

Change: His parents separated and he subsequently moved with his mother to Atlanta, Georgia at the age of 12[1] in July 2005.[2]

to: According to one of his immigration attorneys, he moved to the United States at the age of 7. He visited the United Kingdom in 2005 for a one-month period and subsequently returned to the United States on an H-4 visa. The visa expired in 2006 which left him without a legal status in the country.[3] Bryantriplex (talk) 18:25, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "21 Savage Birth Certificate Reveals He Born in the U.K." Rap-Up. February 4, 2019. Retrieved February 4, 2019.
  2. ^ J. D. Capelouto, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "Breaking: ICE arrests rapper 21 Savage, says he is actually British and overstayed visa". ajc.
  3. ^ Caramanica, Jon (February 4, 2019). "21 Savage, American Rapper". The New York Times. Retrieved February 7, 2019.
I already addressed that when the Full protection ended. Trillfendi (talk) 22:26, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 7 February 2019[edit]

Change "[[British]]" (disambiguation) in the first line to "[[British people|British]]". Tenbeat (talk) 18:29, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done DannyS712 (talk) 23:30, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Article is unlocked[edit]

Airplaneman has reduced the protection level to Extended Confirmed. Please edit with care. Seek consensus before making any potentially controversial changes to the article. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:42, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

I've now returned the article to long-term semi-protection, the same protection level it was under before his run-in with ICE. It's been over 10 days since this event, and even though there's still heavy interest in the article (~50k views a day), I'm hoping that editing conflicts will be manageable with fewer administrative restrictions if everyone takes care and engages on this talk page.
@Ad Orientem: or any other admins watching this page: Given the article's editing history and the long protection log, I think we can agree that any protection level below semi-protection would be inadvisable in the near future. However, if you think this article again needs stronger temporary editing restrictions, feel free to apply them at your discretion. Airplaneman 19:04, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Heritage (St Vincent & Dominica)[edit]

Shéyaa Bin Abraham's mother (Heather Carmillia Joseph) is British, born in London and of Afro-Dominican heritage. His father (Kevin Cornelius Emmons) is British, born in London and of Afro-Vincentian heritage.

In the article, it states that his parents are of Afro-Dominican and Afro-Haitian extraction. However his father's heritage is from St Vincent not Haiti. He's mentioned this before in interviews when asked about his ethnicity, such as this clip: "My mom is from Dominica, and my daddy from St Vincent"

Change necessary? Cheers Southlondoneye (talk) 11:14, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Age on Entry[edit]

Never mind. Covered in Early Life. NelC (talk) 12:40, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 February 2019[edit]

England isn't needed in the infobox Michael14375 (talk) 13:54, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: Place of birth is a standard item to put in an infobox. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 February 2019[edit]

I would like to add that "a lot feat. J. Cole" has now peaked at #12 on Billboard Hot 100. Manliketav (talk) 21:55, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done Trillfendi (talk) 22:24, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Better reference for felony drug conviction?[edit]

The article states that "Abraham-Joseph was convicted of felony drug charges in October 2014 in Fulton County, Georgia." As a reference, it points to an article from NBC Boston which simply states the same thing, with no further details. This account is disputed by the subject's lawyers [1] and it is reported that his record has been expunged [2][3]. It seems that some elaboration and better sources are in order here.

Sgress454 (talk) 04:40, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

References

There seems to be some confusion over whether his conviction was really for a felony, and whether the record was "sealed" versus "expunged", and whether sealing or expunging affects his ability to legalize his presence in the United States. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:33, 16 February 2019 (UTC)