Talk:7 World Trade Center

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Trade Center 7s collapse[edit]

It seems that the text is implying that World Trade Center tower Seven fell as a result of the damage caused by debris from the other explosions on the same date. I think it is **HIGHLY** important that it be noted that this could not have been the cause of the collapse, and that the true cause was that of a controlled demolition. When a tower collapses from fires burning within, they do not collapse from the top floor first, and they certainly do not collapse evenly. Please do some research on the subject and correct your misinformation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.120.108 (talk) 21:24, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, please sign your "contribution". Secondly, if you care to check the World Trade Center articles - you will find that the consensus of registered Wikipedia editors is that they have no time for conspiracy theories from unreliable sources. There are plenty of sites on the internet for these "theories" and that is where they should stay. Thank you, David J Johnson (talk) 21:32, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
The IP has apparently never read the NIST report on how the building collapsed.--MONGO 03:25, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
As it stands, Wiki isn't the end-all be-all source for accurate information anyways, so I'm not surprised the admins consider the sources in the article reliable. Good enough for an introductory rundown of the events, I'm sure readers will be smart enough to know they should look at a variety of sources when researching a topic. 209.31.218.98 (talk) 02:25, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The articlee gives the impression that a scientific consensus exists as to the cause of the collapse of the old building 7. However, this meta-study concludes that there is no such consensus. Shouldn't the article text reflect this uncertainty? Loldrup2 (talk) 20:35, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Your contribution is placed in the wrong place, it should be at the end of this section in keeping with date order. You are trying to insert conspiracy theories into a encyclopedia article. There is already a Conspiracy Theory article and that is where your ideas belong. There is consensus amongst editors that World Trade Center articles are factual and not a vehicle for "truthers". David J Johnson (talk) 20:48, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
Additionally, the "meta-study" you cited is from an unreliable source devoted to the conspiracy theory. So, no. -Jordgette [talk] 23:13, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

It is not a "conspiracy" that it collapsed to demolition. That part is FACT. As stated by countless EXPERTS with decades of experience in demolition. The NIST is not the end all reliable source for accurate information. The majority of researchers have concluded that it was a demolition. So that stands as FACT, and the whim theory that it was collapsed due to fires is the obvious unreliable scenario that is now the conspiracy. Stop obsessing over the NIST and giving them credit for being accurate because they have been proven wrong time and time again and have admitted it. Stop calling the demolition a conspiracy. The only question is whether or not the demolition was planted by terrorists.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.74.46.146 (talkcontribs) 08:50, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

(Please sign your name.) Maybe so. But by way of advise: on Wikipedia, we verify our claims by citing reliable sources—while with due weight, try to avoid original research. El_C 08:50, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

IP:69.74.46.146, please sign any comment you may make and don't shout by inserting caps. Your so-called "experts" are nothing of the kind and your conspiracy theories belong in another place and certainly not in a factual Wikipedia article. Thank you, David J Johnson (talk) 09:48, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

@David J Johnson: I'm intrigued by your stance on this matter. The testimony of Peter Michael Ketcham, [1] a former NIST employee for 14 years working in the mathematical and computational science division, lucidly raises concerns over the standards of the NIST investigation on WTC 7, is he a reliable source? Also William Binney, [2] a former high ranking NSA officer, seems to say that the concerns are legitimate...They seem like smart scientifically minded people, hopefully you can put my mind at ease and give me good reason to ignore these whistleblowers?--Sparkyscience (talk) 17:59, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
No, those are not reliable sources. A major publication, media outlet, or peer-reviewed professional journal (not a conspiracy-theorist website and their YouTube videos) interviewing NIST principals involved directly in the WTC7 investigation (not one random former employee working in an uninvolved division), and that publication/source reaching the conclusion that there were specific weaknesses in the investigation, would be a reliable source. -Jordgette [talk] 18:17, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Jordgette sums it up correctly. You are relying on non-notable, non-involved folk as sources. I repeat conspiracy theories have no place in a factual Wikipedia article. However, there is a page for conspiracy theories and that is where the wacky contributions belong. David J Johnson (talk) 21:03, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

One of the most serious criticisms of the NIST paper by these and other individuals is that the data used in their model is classified due to "national security" it is therefore impossible to independently test and verify their theory. The NIST paper would not pass the peer review process of any self respecting academic journal because of this fact. Is anyone allowed to raise this concern without being branded a conspiracy theorist?--Sparkyscience (talk) 23:08, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Not really; raising such "concerns," introducing ad hoc hypotheses about classified documents (or Pentagon videos, or secret military demolition technology, etc.), and linking to YouTube videos by fringe 9/11 profiteers are pretty much only things that conspiracy theorists do. -Jordgette [talk] 01:41, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your guidance on this matter Jordgette. I found the use of scare quotes, parenthesis to anchor associated nonsense and insinuation that these critics are financially motivated particularly persuasive in making me forget about the underlying substance of their argument.

I don’t want to be associated with the tinfoil-hat brigade who think we faked the moon landings or the earth is flat… so I will accept, merely by fiat, the NIST report as a “scientific” document. After all, intelligence services engaging in psychological operations to discredit pesky critics comes from a bygone era. [3] They don’t do that thing anymore…--Sparkyscience (talk) 10:45, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Let's put it concisely: Wikipedia isn't a forum for discussion of fringe theories or a means of validating them. Acroterion (talk) 13:20, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree Wikipedia is not a forum to advance fringe theories. To make my position absolutely clear all I am stating is the unremarkable objective fact that former government employees have made valid criticism of the NIST report. It is to be expected and completely normal for any supposedly scientific theory to be criticised – for example quantum electrodynamics is a truly great theory but fails to explain the mass of the electron. The theory in the NIST report has limitations and failures, just like any other. I’m not advocating that the article should give undue weight to this fact, a single sentence in the article will do. --Sparkyscience (talk) 22:23, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Quantum electrodynamics isn't the subject of conspiracy theories as far as I know. Until the mainstream media that Wikipedia uses to validate notability discuss the views of the people you mention it would be undue emphasis to include them, except perhaps in the conspiracy theory articles, again assuming it's been noticed in prominent media. Acroterion (talk) 22:39, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm glad to see the discussion move to one of Wikipedia policy. I'm not advocating any notion of conspiracy - just objective facts on the theory advanced in the NIST report. Valid criticism has been published in reliable academic sources. In particular, an article in Europhysics News gives valid criticism;[1] crucially its conclusion does not advocate conspiracy, just unanswered questions. Europhysics News also published a note to the Editor by the aforementioned Peter Michael Ketcham [4].

Notability guidelines only apply to article creation, in the case of article content, there must be reliable sources and NPOV. There is no reason why Europhysics News does not constitute a reliable source given they also publish articles advocating the mainstream view of 9/11[2] That is they maintain a NPOV. Given all I am advocating is a single sentence saying NIST has been criticized i don't think this is undue weight given WIkipedia's own guidelines allow an article on Earth to mention the Flat Earth.--Sparkyscience (talk) 12:14, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

The material that was published in by Jones et al in Europhysics News was repudiated by that publication, which changed its editorial procedures as a result. It is not usable except in the conspiracy articles. AE 911 Truth is a conspiracy promotion organization and is not usable. I'm not familiar with the 2017 EN publication and will take a look at it. Of course NIST has been criticized: the question is whether the criticism has originated from serious experts in the subject matter with credibility among their peers and the engineering community. Acroterion (talk) 13:46, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
The source is not AE 911, the source is Europhysics News. The note from the Editors [5] is not a repudiation or retraction but a reaffirmation of the original editorial note in the Jones et al. (2016) article. The editorial oversight that was in place at Europhysics News both before and after publication of the article meets the current Wikipedia standard outlined in WP:RS nor can I see any history of a debate of Eurphysics News as a RS in WP:RSN. You cannot censor a particular article you don't like from an RS because you have an agenda against an affiliation of one of the coauthors; socially stigmatizing a coauthor because of an affilation does not change the objectivity or verifiability of the facts made in the article itself, this is WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. For example, the statement:
"NIST has been criticized for refusing to release its modelling data on the basis that doing so “might jeopardize public safety” "
Is a verifiable fact and comes from a reliable source, nor is there any notion of unverifiable conspiracy in this statement. There is currently not one word of criticism of the NIST report in the current article, while only a minority of people have taken the time to vocally criticise the NIST report, this does not change the validity of the criticism and there must be some inclusion of this in the article as per WP:NPOV.--Sparkyscience (talk) 09:59, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The Europhysics news fiasco was discussed at length on a 9/11-related talkpage, and the Jones et al opinion piece is not usable as a reference on Wikipedia except with respect to Jones and conspiracy theories. You obviously didn't read the link you supplied - the last three paragraphs disown the Jones content and note changes to prevent similar incidents from happening again. The most EN could muster was the rather backhanded "Since some controversy remains, even among more competent people in the field..." What counts, which you do not seem to want to hear, is whether significant reputable specialists in building structural design and fire protection, not conspiracy enthusiasts or people with unrelated qualifications, have made substantive criticism. The "minority of people who have taken time to vocally criticize the NIST report" are conspiracy enthusiasts, and WP:FRINGE applies. Acroterion (talk) 10:22, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Thank you for pointing out your previous discussion [6] on the EPN piece, i was not aware of it and it is useful to see what has been previously said. I can assure you I read the editors note, particularly the last three paragraphs, very carefully: It is not a repudiation nor a retraction. Not having a formal review/rejection policy does not preclude the use of an informal policy, which is well within the WP:RS rules, indeed it is self evident that the Jones et al. piece was informally reviewed as the editors added a note to the original article which states "we consider that this feature is sufficiently technical and interesting to merit publication for our readers. Obviously, the content of this article is the responsibility of the authors". The second editorial note explains, not retracts, why they added this note to the original article. They also state they do not endorse conspiracy theories, the editorial team of an academic journal or popular science magazine "obviously" never endorses the conclusions of its contributors - it is very common for a journal to contain pieces from different scientists that contradict each over, or indeed replies to each other, in the same issue - this is how science works - it does not render the publication unreliable. Similarly, amending the editorial policy does not mean that all previous published articles are no longer considered a RS under Wikipedia policy, the previous policy of informal review meets the standard.

Any journal article or contribution piece can generally be divided into conclusions which constitute original research (where extreme care must be taken to include in Wikipedia) and verifiable facts upon which these conclusions are based. A fact contained in one piece or the other cannot be censored because someone else believes the conclusions of the same paper to be erroneous. There can be a difference of opinion but not of fact. The Jones et al. paper is no different - its conclusions constitute original research and I do not see a justification for inclusion without multiple other RS citing them.. but the facts upon which the research is based i.e. the statement "NIST has been criticized for refusing to release its modelling data on the basis that doing so “might jeopardize public safety” is not a theory, it is not an opinion, it is not the conclusion of original research, WP:FRINGE does not apply because it is a verifiable objective fact contained in an article that was published in an RS.

To be clear I very much am listening to you points and respect your experience as an editor; I hope you can see that what we have here is a difference of interpretation that I hope we can resolve through cordial debate. It seems to me that no matter who wrote the EPN article they would be branded a "conspiracy theorist" and thus merely by virtue of this subjective label the facts contained within the article would also be labeled invalid. No reading of Wikipedia policy allows for such adhoc blacklisting when an author publishes in a RS. I think your agenda and interests are best served by inclusion of criticism of NIST as is required by WP:NPOV and also include "criticism of the criticism" for want of a better phrase... Resorting to adhoc censorship does you no good. --Sparkyscience (talk) 12:29, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

I haven't rejected criticism of NIST, just the Jones rehash of the same old conspiracy promotion which has never been accepted on Wikipedia and which is no more credible than it ever was. It's an opinion piece, not a peer-reviewed paper, and it's been explicitly disowned by the publisher. Find some credible, specific content by recognized authorities in the field, Acroterion (talk) 12:46, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
Totally agree with Acroterion's comments above - yes it is rehash of the same old conspiracy promotion. It is time for Sparkyscience to drop these efforts, as I cannot see any consensus for inserting his/her ideas in a factual article.David J Johnson (talk) 13:33, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

I shall quit commenting on this talk page (one thing we can agree on David!), as I think we've reached the point of going round in circles! :-)

I never said it was peer reviewed, neither is the NIST report and the article is no more an opinion piece then the Le & Bažant article. The editors highlight in the original article that it contains a speculative conclusion, as is completely normal in any popular science article; we see this all the time in science: the hypothesis of a multiverse is a bonkers idea for which there is no direct evidence. A speculation doesn't change the veracity of the facts upon which it is based, which are verifiable and in a RS. NIST not releasing data is a fact not an opinion. For all the reasons outlined above EPN have not redacted the article (which looks like this [7] [8]) and editors will never endorse conclusions of external authors - the editors note is just a well worded statement of the status quo. It is blatantly transparent that what is being presenting here is an argument from authority and social stigma rather than one of pure reason or implementation of WP policy. When all else fails scream "conspiracy theorist" to block awkward facts. I don't envy your job over the coming years... --Sparkyscience (talk) 14:00, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Jones, Steven; Korol, Robert; Szamboti, Anthony; Walter, Ted (2016). "15 years later: on the physics of high-rise building collapses" (PDF). Europhysics News. 47 (4): 21–26. Bibcode:2016ENews..47...21J. doi:10.1051/epn/2016402. ISSN 0531-7479. 
  2. ^ Le, Jia-Liang; Bažant, Zdeněk P. (2017). "Mechanics-based mathematical studies proving spontaneity of post-impact WTC towers collapse" (PDF). Europhysics News. 48 (1): 18–23. doi:10.1051/epn/2017102. ISSN 0531-7479. 
The article on Earth does not mention "flat Earth" except in its proper historical context. Modern Flat Earth theories are discussed in the corresponding article. Similarly, "concerns about the roundness of the Earth" or "criticisms of NASA" would belong there. Would you really advocate inserting a mention of criticisms of NASA in the Earth article where, for example, Earth's radius or curvature is mentioned? "However, NASA's methodology has been criticized"...it just seems ludicrous to me. -Jordgette [talk] 18:23, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

On September 6th, 2017, the University of Alaska Fairbanks announced its findings after a two year study into the collapse of WTC7. This announcement was given in a lecture [1], by Dr Leroy Hulsey [2], the head of the project. The announcement concerned the first stage of the study: Could this building's collapse be attributed to fire? The study's finding is categoric: fire did not cause the collapse of WTC7. This contradicts the NIST report. Dr Hulsey's study continues with the question: What conditions would be needed to produce the progressive collapse of the building, in the manner it in fact fell?. This is added to the article page.

Whatever it was that happened to this building, historians have to write the history books. Yet physical evidence conflicts with the official narrative. Indeed the original 9/11 Commission Report, in its 600 pages, does not even mention this building, yet it fell that day. One difficulty for the historians is the term "conspiracy theory". This was used by George W Bush, telling us at the United Nations, just after 9/11, that we should not listen to any such unofficial stories. His use of the term has blocked debate ever since.

* First, sign your "contribution" in the correct way: Second, this insertion should be at the foot of the article, as per normal style; and third, I suggest you read the rest of this Talk page regarding these theories. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia dealing with confirmed,reliable, facts and not theories by self appointed "experts". YouTube is not a reliable source. David J Johnson (talk) 10:12, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
* Dear Sir, PLease say, in what way this Youtube entry is not reliable? It's a film of the man himself speaking. What I have added is easily demonstrable fact.
No, you are still not signing any post you make here and your contribution on the talk page is still in the wrong position. Please remember Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a platform for unreliable, non-notable, theories from obscure sources. I note that a administrator has reverted your entry on the article page. Please leave it at that, or you will be reverted again. There are plenty of sites on the internet for such theories by non-notable persons. Thank you, David J Johnson (talk) 11:44, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
* I have moved this paragraph to where I think you mean. And I have replaced the youtube citation by the University's own web article.
See above. David J Johnson (talk) 11:46, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
I agree that these "findings" are self-published, and given this article's featured status, should not be included. epicgenius (talk) 14:28, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Its not published nor ever will be published in a scientific peer review engineering journal so no reason to even discuss whether we will add it.--MONGO 17:47, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks to epicgenius for moving this discussion into the correct position. David J Johnson (talk) 17:54, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

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