Talk:Abortion

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Frequently asked questions (FAQ)
  1. Should we add or expand coverage of a particular aspect of abortion?
    It is likely that we have already done so. There was so much information on abortion that we decided to split it all into separate articles. This article is concise because we've tried to create an overview of the entire topic here by summarizing many of these more-detailed articles. The goal is to give readers the ability to pick the level of detail that best suits their needs. If you're looking for more detail, check out some of the other articles related to abortion.
  2. This article seems to be on the long side. Should we shorten it?
    See above. The guidelines on article length contain exceptions for articles which act as "starting points" for "broad subjects." Please see the archived discussion "Article Length."
  3. Should we include expert medical or legal advice about abortions?
    No. Wikipedia does not give legal or medical advice. Please see Wikipedia:Medical disclaimer and Wikipedia:Legal disclaimer for more information.
  4. Should we include or link to pictures of fetuses and/or the end products of abortion?
    No consensus. See the huge discussion on this topic in 2009 here. Consistently, there has been little support for graphic "shock images"; while images were added in 2009 the topic remains contentious, and some images have been removed.
  5. Should we include an image in the lead?
    No consensus. Numerous images have been proposed for the article lead. However, no image achieved consensus and the proposal that garnered a majority of support is to explicitly have no image in the lead.
Former good article Abortion was one of the Natural sciences good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
December 26, 2006 Good article nominee Listed
January 14, 2008 Good article reassessment Delisted
February 21, 2015 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Delisted good article
This article has been mentioned by a media organization:
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Notable precedents in discussion

Semi-protected edit request on 11 May 2017[edit]

It says that the Church did not vigorously condemdn abortion till the 19th century but this isnt true, the Church condemned abortion since its beginning https://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLENC/ENCYC043.HTM 123.231.124.180 (talk) 08:50, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

You'll need a reliable source, rather more independent than the Eternal Word Television Network to prove this. At times, the church has even condoned genocides, for instance, of Jews, Muslims, indigenous peoples, and other Christian sects. See Crusades and Conquistador. Don't believe everything you read from one source, particularly when that source is trying to convince you of one viewpoint. LeadSongDog come howl! 15:26, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

You should reference the Didache, a first-century teaching of Church which forbids abortion. I'll leave it to you to come up with a wikipedia-acceptable sourcing of the text, but here's one: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/42053/42053-h/42053-h.htm 50.58.161.98 (talk) 18:50, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

The early Christian person Tertullian wrote in his "Apologia" [1], in chapter 9 (page 32 on website referenced), that abortion had already been banned among Christians no later than 240 AD:

″But Christians now are so far from homicide, that with them it is utterly unlawful to make away a child in the womb, when nature is in deliberation about the man; for to kill a child before it is born is to commit murder by way of advance; and there is no difference whether you destroy a child in its formation, or after it is formed and delivered. For we Christians look upon him as a man, who is one in embryo; for he is in being, like the fruit in blossom, and in a little time would have been a perfect man, had nature met with no disturbance.″ 208.76.28.70 (talk) 18:39, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Page 3 of the reference given [2] makes it clear that the Catholic Church has pretty much always denounced abortion, although the Catholic church has been divided about whether to treat abortion the same as murder or not. I think correctly using the existing reference per this reading would satisfy IP user 123.231.124.180's request. 208.76.28.70 (User:208.76.28.70) 19:31, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

This is a better source [3]. John Wiley and Sons are a well respected publisher. Book was published in 2009.

It specifically says "The Catholic church tacitly permitted earlier abortions, and it did not take a highly active role in antiabortion campaigns until the 19th century." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:21, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Joffe is not an historian. Her Wikipedia article specifically describes her as an abortion rights advocate.
Okay do you have a better source? "Pro-Life Activist's Encyclopedia" is not one. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:34, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
On page 3 of "Abortion & the Politics of Motherhood" by Kristin Luker, University of California Press (August 4, 1985), [4] we read that the Catholic Church has pretty much always denounced abortion, although the Catholic church has been divided about whether to treat abortion the same as murder or not. Luker is Elizabeth Josselyn Boalt Professor of Law (Emerita), Professor of Sociology, and Faculty Director of the Center on Reproductive Rights and Justice at Berkeley Law, University of California, Berkeley. This is not the work of a LifeNews blogger.208.76.28.70 (talk) 17:34, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
Your source does not support the edit request stated above. The source says, "...it is true that the early Christian church denounced abortion (along with other barriers to procreation, such as contraception, humosexuality, or surgical sterilization); but it is also true that the church's sanctions against abortion were almost never as severe as the penalties for the murder of an adult person. Moreover, throughout most of the history of Western Christianity, abortion early in pregnancy, though verbally chastized, was often legally ignored." So the request to remove "did not vigorously condemn abortion" is against the suggested source which affirms the lack of "vigorous" condemnation. Binksternet (talk) 19:00, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
Agree with User:Binksternet Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:56, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Maybe IP user 123.231.124.180's concern is not that the sentence is incorrect, but that the sentence is misleading. The chapter title is History and Religion, covering ancient China, Egypt, Greece, Rome, Islam, the Catholic Church, and modern Europe and the US. You would expect Wikipedia to articulate in as few words as possible, what the Catholic Church has stood for regarding abortion. This is what it says: "In Christianity, Pope Sixtus V (1585–90) was the first Pope to declare that abortion is homicide regardless of the stage of pregnancy;[158] the Catholic Church had previously been divided on whether it believed that abortion was murder, and did not begin vigorously opposing abortion until the 19th century.[13]" While it is correct that the Catholic Church was not vigorous in its opposition throughout history, Wikipedia fails to show that the Church's division regarding abortion is between people who oppose abortion and people who criminalize abortion... an uninformed Wikipedia reader might read this paragraph and understand the Catholic Church's history to include many people for whom abortion was perfectly acceptable.208.76.28.70 (talk) 13:37, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

The previous comment dated 6 June 2017 by myself asserts that the current wording is misleading although not technically incorrect. Request status changed to "not answered". 208.76.28.70 (talk) 21:29, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
Humph. Reference given for comment about Pope Sixtus V doesn't have anything about any Popes. I propose the following change to satisfy ip user 123.231.124.180's request and this broken reference: "Throughout history, the Christian Church has denounced abortion, although its position has not been consistent as to whether abortion should be punished as severely as murder.["Abortion & the Politics of Motherhood" by Kristin Luker, University of California Press (August 4, 1985), [5], page 3] The Catholic Church's current vigorous opposition to abortion did not begin until the 19th century.[13]" 208.76.28.70 (talk) 23:02, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
The previous talk post by me says that this article has reference issues regarding the History section, which are specified. Since the reference issues have not been resolved, I reset the "answered" parameter to "n". 208.76.28.70 (talk) 22:40, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
Your edit does not have obvious consensus, a necessary criterion for |answered=n. I have set it back to y. --Izno (talk) 22:59, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
Ah, I see... thanks for this clarification. 208.76.28.70 (talk) 19:42, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2017[edit]

please mention that abortion is the murder of an unborn baby, the killing of an innocent human being, the taking of the life of another; because this is what it truly is. RexMiles (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Not done: That is not the universal legal status of abortion. —C.Fred (talk) 17:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
Abortion technically refers to what we call "abortion" (clarified as "elective abortion") as well as miscarriage ("spontaneous abortion") and "another procedure" called "late termination of pregnancy". Since the term "abortion" includes miscarriage, your request isn't resolvable directly.
Furthermore, although Wikipedia is neutral on controversial subjects, it is committed to wording that is defensible legally as well as through the most universally-acknowledged theoretical basis. The current wording reflects the consensus of pro-choice nations and not the law in places like Ireland. I believe that Wikipedia would be better if this article were written with wording that both pro-choice theorists and their political opponents agreed upon. If you would like a specific sentence added or changed, please make specific suggestions for the auto-confirmed editors to review and keep in mind Wikipedia's neutrality commitment, which you can read about here: WP:NPOV. 208.76.28.70 (talk) 21:37, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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History section on Christianity missing references[edit]

Hi Wikipedia editors, the reference given where the article comments on "Pope Sixtus V" does not seem to relate to this person. I suggest either finding a reference that does or removing this sentence. 208.76.28.70 (talk) 19:44, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

History section on Christianity misleading[edit]

Hi Wikipedia editors, the article today implies that in the history of the Christian church, it had been unclear whether abortion is OK or not in Christian teaching for a long time until the nineteenth century. But this implication is incorrect: various sources, including "Abortion & the Politics of Motherhood" by Kristin Luker, report that abortion was already not allowed according to Christian teaching at a very early time, no later than 300 AD. It is true that punishment for abortion has not always been consistent, varying from murder to not murder, but this is not because the Church ever taught that abortion is OK. 208.76.28.70 (talk) 19:48, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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