Talk:Abstract and concrete
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Relevant to the usage of the words in philosophy?
Merely a point for consideration... I'm not sure if the following provides a clear illustration of the distinction between concrete and abstract from a philosophical view although it provides one from a language usage point.
Concrete and abstract thinking
Piaget uses the terms "concrete" and "formal" to describe the different types of learning. Concrete thinking involves facts and descriptions about everyday, tangible objects, while abstract (formal operational) thinking involves a mental process.
|Concrete idea||Abstract idea|
|Heavy things sink||It will sink if its density is greater than the density of the liquid. Please consider, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy|
|You breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide||Gas exchange takes place between the air in the alveoli and the blood|
|Plants get water through their roots||Water diffuses through the cell membrane of the root hair cells...|
The transition to abstract thinking is not inevitable. About 30% of teenagers naturally make the shift without help. While there are a range of approaches which can help pupils with ordinary learning, to assist with the concrete/abstract transition the learner has to be presented with a problem which cannot be solved without abstract thinking and then be assisted to construct the concept for themselves.
‘Abstract’ or ‘abstract truth’ is a certain type of truth which exists in the same way as any other truth located in the memory and it can be called, by motivated observer, to existence in the ‘now’. Every truth is motivation which is organized by the laws of nature and it exists as much as the units in the material space time such as matter, electromagnetism or gravity. A unit of matter occupying a limited magnitude of space has a reflection in the immaterial space time where it is ‘concrete truth’. This can be observed with the immaterial senses and it can act as the cause or it can be the effect. Electromagnetism and gravity can be ‘concrete truth’ only when they are organized and contained in a limited magnitude of space. As unorganized energy electromagnetism and gravity are ‘abstract truths’. There is a difference between ‘concrete truth’ and ‘abstract truth’. The first is organization resulting from differentiation of velocity of rotation of gravitons in a closed space. ‘Concrete truth’ can be copied in the material space. ‘Abstract truth’ does not have organization but it motivates as the rotation of immaterial gravitons without spatial limit. The lack of limitation of energy in space makes interaction with the immaterial senses impossible and the truth cannot be copied in the material space. KK (188.8.131.52 (talk) 08:40, 11 May 2011 (UTC)).
Should redirect for "Drittes Reich" and "Third Realm" be to Abstract object (per Frege), or to Nazi Germany (per Hitler)?
- (See also the 독일의-Wikipedia's Drittes Reich (Frege) -
- "In dem Aufsatz Der Gedanke des deutschen Philosophen und Mathematikers Gottlob Frege (1918) bezeichnet der Ausdruck Drittes Reich einen Bereich der Realität, in dem die nach seiner Auffassung objektiven Gedanken angesiedelt sind:
- Die Gedanken sind weder Dinge der Außenwelt noch Vorstellungen. Ein drittes Reich muß anerkannt werden. Was zu diesem gehört, stimmt mit den Vorstellungen darin überein, daß es nicht mit den Sinnen wahrgenommen werden kann, mit den Dingen aber darin, daß es keines Trägers bedarf, zu dessen Bewußtseinsinhalte es gehört. So ist z. B. der Gedanke, den wir im pythagoreischen Lehrsatz aussprachen, zeitlos wahr, unabhängig davon, ob irgendjemand ihn für wahr hält. Er bedarf keines Trägers. Er ist wahr nicht erst, seitdem er entdeckt worden ist, wie ein Planet, schon bevor jemand ihn gesehen hat, mit andern Planeten in Wechselwirkung gewesen ist.
- Mit dem Argument, dass es andernfalls keine Intersubjektivität geben könne, postuliert Frege neben dem Reich der subjektiven Vorstellungen und dem der "objektiv-wirklichen" physischen Gegenstände noch ein "drittes Reich": das der "objektiv-nichtwirklichen" Gedanken. Sie werden vom Bewusstsein erfasst, aber nicht hervorgebracht."
- (See also the 독일의-Wikipedia's Drittes Reich (Frege) -
- I don't speak German, but "Third Realm" and "Drittes Reich" both redirect to Nazi Germany.
- There is often a problem when Kant, Frege, Wittgenstein, etc., are translated by lighter weight thinkers (i.e., by anyone).
- Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (SEP) is WP:RS.
- According to reliable secondary source Gideon Rosen in the "Abstract Objects" article at SEP, "Frege concludes that numbers are neither external ‘concrete’ things nor mental entities of any sort. ... He says that they (thoughts - by which Gideon Rosen means the senses of declarative sentences, apparently with Rosen using Frege's highly technical meaning of "sense") belong to a ‘third realm’ distinct both from the sensible external world and from the internal world of consciousness... As this new ‘realism’ was absorbed into English speaking philosophy, the traditional term ‘abstract’ was enlisted to apply to the denizens of this ‘third realm’."
- Note: Rosen does not provide citations in support of this particular SEP:OR "encyclopedia" article statement, re what he calls "absorption" and "enlistment", likely because of a lack of historical scholarly works to rely on re the etymology of "abstract object". But we at Wikipedia have higher standards than SEP when it comes to OR.
I propose a disabiguation page. But having inadvertently stepped from writing WP:BLPs into trying to edit the Alternative medicine article, I assume per User:IRWolfie's comments at alt med, that it is best to first propose things in a small way at talk pages, before editing on any articles involving religion, racist groups, evolution, alt meds, and articles about topics involving groups of irrational people that are still in existence.
I think this article is quite confused. For instance: it claims that "tennis" is abstract while "a tennis game" is concrete. I beg to differ: while "a tennis game" is perhaps less abstract (more concrete), it is certainly NOT concrete. The first game between Riggs and King on Sept 20, 1973 IS concrete (having BOTH time and place). (I here ignore the likely ambiguity between a tennis game and a tennis match.) Actually ALL of the "concrete" examples are NOT CONCRETE. This is really absurd. I mean literally absurd. Here are some concrete examples: the red coloring of the apples in my kitchen (now), the 5 fingers on my right hand, OJ Simpson's murder trial (including investigation and verdict), and you and your family. (note that these are more or less well defined.)184.108.40.206 (talk) 05:28, 22 April 2015 (UTC)