Talk:Adi Shankara

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The Translation of Nirvana shaktam part in the box is totally wrong and mis-interpreted.[edit]

"I am Thought, I am Joy, I am He, I am He." 'I am He, I am He.' ? he what ? the Translation is totally wrong.

The first line from Nivrvana Shaktam itself is enough to prove it wrong i.e

Sanskrit Sloka: मनोबुद्ध्यहङ्कार चित्तानि Translation:Mind,Intellect,Ego,Memory I am __NOT__ he says.

Then how ? This : "I am Thought, I am Joy, I am He, I am He." This is absurd, please let people who are well familiar with sanskrit and Vedanata philosophy take care of these topics mainly from India itself.

Sanskrit Sloka: चिदानन्दरूपः is not ""I am Thought, I am Joy," It is : Chida = "Consciousness ", Ananda = Bliss (Sandhi Done if you know what it means), Rupah = Form. Therefore he says : Consciousness, Bliss Form

Sanskrit Sloka: शिवोऽहम् Doesnot means "I am he" That would be in sanskrit "SahAham" where Sah = he, Aham = I. The correct Translation is : Shivo = Siva(hindu god), Aham = I I.E "I am Shiva"

Please correct all the mistakes, let people familiar with Vedanata philosophy handle these all pages because they are knowers of these field. you can contact with "Ramakrishna MUTT @ USA"'s Swamis for the correct information.

Rest for now, correct these mistakes asap. :)

@Joshua Jonathan: ping to JJ.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Demise1234 (talkcontribs) 13:36, 24 April 2016

This is stuff for Ms sarah Welch and Ogress... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:41, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Oh i see, Thank you.
So.. @Ms Sarah Welch: & @Ogress:, Please take care of those silly mistakes :) and yes please consult Swamis of Ramakrishna Mutt, they're in US as well. Demise1234 (talk) 11:54, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
@Demise1234: The infobox does not state that this is the "first line" of the Nirvana Shaktam. It is hymns 3-6. Originally, the hymns 3-6 were added with "I am Shiva", which is more accurate. But, we can't do WP:OR in wikipedia, we must rely on presenting what is in the sources. So, if you want changes in the infobox, you need to provide a published verifiable source, not ask us to contact "Ramakrishna MUTT @ USA"'s Swamis. @Joshua Jonathan: I will restore the older 'I am Shiva', since I see support for it. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:00, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch: Source : http://greenmesg.org/mantras_slokas/brahman-nirvana_shatakam.php <-- With Translation when hovered ON slokas, you can look up for the meaning IN sanskrit dictionary as well, oh yes,one of the source already mentioned & is accepted by'you': http://www.svbf.org/journal/vol2no4/nirvana.pdf <-- I doubt if sources are checked before adding topics. Now, the reason why I used First line is to prove wrong the Statement i.e Wrong Translation "I am Thought, I am Joy" , if one(first) line denies i am not mind, intellect then how it can be later joy or thought :) , rest, Chida-anada = Consciousnes, Bliss, it is clearly mentioned in source i supplied as well as previously existed source in page as well. Next, why i said to contact Ramakrishna mutt? because at the end of the day, people should know what they are maintaining or into, so they have to go to masters of the field to "know" it, those swamis are masters so to speak in Vedanata philosophy as well as Sanatna Dharma, don't take it too personally lol, well for now, please correct those mistakes, that is the work to be done. :) Demise1234 (talk) 12:06, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch:Please also, REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atma_Shatkam , sounds OK, btw Atma Shatkam = Nirvana Shatkam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Demise1234 (talkcontribs)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Demise1234: Thanks, but greenmesg.org looks like a blog, not WP:RS. We also have WP:Copyvio guidelines, and that the summary should reflect multiple sources. You are mixing mind, thought, consciousness, etc; but please, we must avoid forum-like discussion on this talk page, per WP:TPNO. If you have any more WP:RS that should be considered, please share. I will check the published sources again whether, "I am Thought, I am Joy" should be changed to "I am Consciousness, I am Bliss" or Vivekananda-based "I am Knowledge, I am Bliss" etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:45, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Mixing mind, thought ? thoughts are part of mind according to Advaita School therefore he says, i am not mind applies i am not thought no doubt in that, rest nevermind, i can expect these lines from person who is not familiar, secondly yes, good point,Consciousness or Knowledge, Both are correct, as Consciousness is only reality explained in Advaita therefore it is only the knowledge as well rest is Maya i.e Advidya i.e Not knowledge, this is the reason, you may find these statements(Consciousness or Knowledge) but since Knowledge is Secondary meaning given, therefore Word "Consciousness" or more precisely "Pure Consciousness" is taken into consideration like it is done here[1] by Sringeri Peetham which was established by Adi ShankaraCharya(well indirectly, precisely by one of his disciples) this is the reason why i said at first place,"if you may discuss 'this' with 'learned swamis'", now, yes it do reflect multiple sources, leaving aside greenmsg, since you termed it under blog and is not acceptable, the pre-defined source : http://www.svbf.org/journal/vol2no4/nirvana.pdf & one of the wikipedia page itself : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atma_Shatkam, and here as well http://vedicyagyacenter.com/wp-content/themes/vedic/pdfs/NirvanaShatakamLyrics-withtranslation.pdf <- published by a Vedic Center, rest, you can confirm this by looking up meaning of Sanskrit words, Chida, Ananda, Aham for your own Convince. Demise1234 (talk) 13:01, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch: Ahem!, it's been almost a day since no action, this is not professionalism or does "check-ing the published sources again" do take this long? Demise1234 (talk) 01:53, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
If "professionalism" means "delivering on command," than you may pay a professional salary. Otherwise, checking the sources carefully may take some time. Please show some due respect; your learned swamis probably have more respect for the depth of knowledge of Ms sarah Welch than for someone who ignorantly writes "i can expect these lines from person who is not familiar" without knowing what she knows. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:14, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
Regarding the text/translation itself: it's not the complete text yet, is it?
Regarding "cidAnandarupa": cit has more meanings than just "consciousness"; when we translate it as "consciousness," it's like some sort of reification, turning consciousness as a 'verb' into consciousness as an 'object' (English is not my native language, so I'm searching for the right words to express what I mean; my apologies if it's not clear enough). "Pure consciousness" may indeed be better, with the emphasis on "pure," as in the Buddhist Yogacara alajavijnana and the Buddha-nature. "Cit" may also be understood as not representing a metaphysical or ontological principle, but a 'psychological c.q. phenomenological insight' into the workings of the mind, and the 'emptiness' which 'remains' when concepts and names are deconstructed. But, alas, I'm a "Buddhist," ain't I, so what can you expect?
Regarding the whole translation: isn't there a copyright free translation available?
Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:10, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
PS: why "śivo'ham," and not "Brahmaham"? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:49, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
@JJ: I expected So'ham, found in their ancient Upanishads, such as the Isha Upanishad. Yet, the versions on internet read Shivo'ham. I haven't checked the archived original manuscripts. The phrasing is from satcitananda, and I don't think "pure X" makes it more clear, rather raises what is "impure X" and the difference between the two? WP:RS just go with truth-consciousness-bliss or similar. There are, indeed, a lot of parallels between Buddhism-Hinduism-Jainism. Each is beautiful, fascinating in its own way. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:20, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── "Truth-consciousness-bliss" seems to be one-dimensional to me. "Sat" has a much deeper connotation! I'd read it as 'the bliss of being aware of the essence of being', or some"thing" like that. Still, why Shiva, and not Brahman? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:08, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

May be poetic meter? I will have to dig into this, to offer more than a guess. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:27, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Indian?[edit]

What is this 'Indian' mentioned all over Wikipeidia? Was there any India before the creation of British-India?

All these great philosophies are at best some kind of intellectual past-time of a minor group of people somewhere in the subcontinent or even outside. A sample of the real people of the subcontinent, and also from where Sri Sankara is said to have originated can be seen on this link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.214.28.24 (talk) 15:45, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Misra's wife[edit]

@Nihoyari: Why is Misra's wife and the claimed Saraswati incarnation WP:Due in this article? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:06, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

@Nihoyari: I have once again removed the content you added to this article, because it was largely unsourced, undue, and unencyclopedic per WP:WWIN. The two sources you added are not WP:RS. We cannot present discredited hagiographies as historical facts, or anything that appears in blogs or personal commentaries / propaganda / opinions in some newspapers. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:56, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Comment: Thanks @JJ for adding the linking. I should have done it. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:53, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch : Before Adding Economic Times-Times of India , Outlook India, The Hindu and Indian Express Links, you removed the content. These are the most reliable links:
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-04-19/news/38674414_1_referee-mithila-debate
http://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/oh-but-you-do-get-it-wrong/262511
http://www.business-standard.com/article/beyond-business/the-management-trinity-116061401189_1.html
http://www.thehindu.com/2001/08/21/stories/1321017c.htm
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/Buddhist-Path-a-Way-to-Asian-Century-PM-Modi/2015/09/03/article3008470.ece

These tell in detail about one of the most celebrated ddebate between Ubhaya Bharati and Adi Shankara in 8th Century A.D The other links of Firstpost and Mid-Day are equally reliable:
http://www.firstpost.com/politics/as-pm-modi-goes-to-darbhanga-a-look-at-history-of-a-land-which-forced-the-shankaracharya-to-learn-kamasutra-2491768.html
http://www.mid-day.com/articles/transplant-this-soul-in-that-body/16565180
http://www.mid-day.com/articles/devdutt-pattanaik-agree-disagree-argue/16954167
--Nihoyari (talk) 14:37, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

@Nihoyari: Please see WP:HISTRS guidelines, then explain why are these reliable? Adi Shankara's life and works have been well studied by scholars and religion historians, who specialize in this area. This encyclopedic article must rely on the related scholarship. We should not base this article on gossip or op-ed columns of Indian or non-Indian tabloids and newspapers. Your allegation of "the most celebrated ddebate [sic] between Ubhaya Bharati and Adi Shankara in 8th Century A.D" is strange. Because the scholarly sources cited in this article state the confusion whether Misra and Suresvara were the same person; even the birth year of Adi Shankara is uncertain. Your claims are thus neither based on relevant scholarship, nor consistent with it. Further it is WP:Undue. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:49, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Indeed. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2017[edit]

It is written that vidyaranya was a minister. That is totally wrong. Vidyaranya was never a minister in vijayanagara empire 15.219.201.75 (talk) 10:57, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — IVORK Discuss 11:34, 24 May 2017 (UTC)