Talk:Adi Shankara

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Former featured article Adi Shankara is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
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Why similarities and differences with Buddhist lens?[edit]

Surprised Shankara is viewed with Buddhist lens? It should be the other way around... Shankara's understanding of vedanta stems from Brahma Samhita and other works and not on buddhist principles... When Shankara understood Brahma sutras, etc to espouse Vedanta, and did not learn Buddhism from Buddhist gurus to form the same... If anything, the similarity / differences should be attributed to Buddhism from a hinduism lens. Being that the case, it is very likey the similarity / differences between Buddhism and Advaita could be very well due to Buddhist principles borrowed heavily from Hindu text (How unlikely this could be given Gautama was a Hindu prince) Logic would say this... It is not appropriate to look Shankara in Buddhist lens... Buddhism, Jainism and other Indic religions should actually be looked at Hinduism lens which is the only way to look at it... May be the Buddhist / Jain / Other establishment would try to disown / disclaim Hindu canons / texts and may say they have nothing to do with Hindu like beliefs, but, any such claim (due to similarly in Buddhism / Jainism etc with Hinduism that can be clearly rooted to "source" texts like Vedas/Vedangas/Upanishads) should be totally unacceptable. The only thing that can be accepted from these religion is their right to disown or accept Hindu texts as cannon... The concepts proposed (Nirvana vs Moksha) could be easily verified in Hindu texts, even if they are interpreted and presented in different words (mere technicality and semantics), but a textual verification of concepts can be established. Then Adishankara's views can be ratified clearly by looking at Hindu text and any similarity between Advaita and Mahayana would clearly link Mahayana borrowing that concept from Hindu source text and not otherwise, could be established. Why so much talk and ambiguity? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.164.25.61 (talkcontribs)

Because what we today call "Hinduism," a synthesis of various Indian traditions, originated after Jainism and Buddhism. Shankara gave an Upanishadic/Vedantic base for key concepts which were borrowed from Buddhism. There's a widespread scholarly concensus on that. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:00, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

My whole point is the impossibility of that comes actually from my question... Vedantic/Upanishidic/Brahmanas pre-date Buddhism and Jainism and the principles espoused by Shankara and other sages (both before and after) contained in Hindu texts... so, tt cannot be borrowed... The "scholarly" consensus have to re-looked (honestly, there is no "true" truth anywhere to be found even when things are this obvious) - of course, a lie can be said many times and it will become truth... Obviously, my point being on the principles of karma, soul, nirvana rebirth which existed in Hinduism in many texts (prior to Buddhism or Jainism). Things like caste, rituals obviously buddhism rejected... Instead of accepting the fact that Buddhism and other Indic religions shared / accepted similar views to Hinduism and differs obviously in the other aspects... But, elaborate effort is spent by other Indic religious establishment to paint Hinduism as the "borrower". Not sure, what is the harm in accepting this similarity with Hinduism, as that is only (counter argument to this would be true too, if that is the fact, but Hinduism borrowing will be anachronistic)... The only logical conclusion I can derive is that it will prove difficult for the establishment (of other Indic) to propagte the religion as people would question why this? if it is same as Hinduism isnt it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.164.25.61 (talk) 14:21, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

@122.164.25.61: Welcome. Wikipedia summarizes reliable sources, striving for a neutral presentation of the different sides. As @Joshua Jonathan mentions, the "Shankara borrowed terminology and concepts from Buddhism" is indeed a broadly held view, and it must be included in this encyclopedic article on Shankara. There is another broadly held scholarly view that "Buddhism borrowed terminology and concepts from Vedic Hinduism", but that is off topic for this article. Similarly, the contesting views such as "Vedic Hinduism" of Michael Witzel, to Buddhism has been part of or an aspect of Hinduism, to Hinduism and Buddhism and Christianity are all ancient, or that all three are new words invented after 14th-century... all these are all interesting points of view, but not directly relevant to this article on Adi Shankara. Wikipedia is, at its best, a neutral encyclopedic summary of diverse viewpoints, and it is not a WP:Soapbox. So, please reread and reflect on what @Joshua Jonathan has to say above, and keep in mind the scope and focus of this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:33, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
My apologies if I sound harsh or rude; I've had too many arguments with POV-pushing editors before, so the kind of objections you;re making soon remind me of those discussions. And yes, of course it's also good to speak of "similarities" and "differences"; after all, Buddhis did not originate in a vacuum, but in an interpkay between various Indian traditions. Even better said: various traditions are partly off-shoots of the same developments in the shramanic movements. The more relevant info on Shankara is that he sort of "countered" the Buddhist influences, by using Vedic/Upanishadic sources. Though his concepts and themes are of course very recognisable for Buddhists. Don't forget that Buddhism existed for more than thousand years already when Shankara lived.
What may be of interest to you may be the concepts of sunyata and Buddha-nature, and the Tibetan discussions on these two strands of thought, as reflected in Rangtong-Shentong. While Skankara states that "the" Buddhists reject the concpet of Atman, Buddhism does contain strands of thought which are evry akin to Advaita Vedanta - or Advaita Vedanta is very akin to those strands of thought; who will tell? and, at least Tantric Buddhism was "copied" from Tantric Hinduism. So, there's a lot of nuance to this. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:28, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

I think I am being on point only here.. 1) I am clear that Buddhism could have heavily borrowed in the first place - Which I don't know anybody can refute - Given the scriptures that talk about concepts of karma, rebirth etc. existed prior in Hinduism itself. 2) I am drawing from that to this point of discussion, that Shankara learned Hindu scriptures first and formulated Advaita and the similarities that is seen is similarity that Buddhism "borrowed" earlier and not the other way around... The resurgence of Hinduism happened during Sankara time mainly because of his clear cut alignment of his principles with Hindu sources (not Buddhist scriptures)... This is my main point on the thread and I have not deviated from that... But, as with anything Hinduism I suppose PR wise they lost... The "Scholars" have already agreed unfortunately... Anyway, I have nothing further to add here... Thanks for your discussion... Just want to keep it here for record. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.164.25.61 (talkcontribs)

@122.164.25.61: Scholars have not agreed, and the article tries to present the different sides. Most scholars agree that there are major Atman-Anatta related differences between Buddhism and Hinduism traditions such as those championed by Adi Shankara. It will be un-encyclopedic to suppress information of either side, and the mutual influences/differences between Hinduism and Buddhism. We just need to stick to faithfully summarizing the reliable sources to the best of our abilities. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:28, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

The Translation of Nirvana shaktam part in the box is totally wrong and mis-interpreted.[edit]

"I am Thought, I am Joy, I am He, I am He." 'I am He, I am He.' ? he what ? the Translation is totally wrong.

The first line from Nivrvana Shaktam itself is enough to prove it wrong i.e

Sanskrit Sloka: मनोबुद्ध्यहङ्कार चित्तानि Translation:Mind,Intellect,Ego,Memory I am __NOT__ he says.

Then how ? This : "I am Thought, I am Joy, I am He, I am He." This is absurd, please let people who are well familiar with sanskrit and Vedanata philosophy take care of these topics mainly from India itself.

Sanskrit Sloka: चिदानन्दरूपः is not ""I am Thought, I am Joy," It is : Chida = "Consciousness ", Ananda = Bliss (Sandhi Done if you know what it means), Rupah = Form. Therefore he says : Consciousness, Bliss Form

Sanskrit Sloka: शिवोऽहम् Doesnot means "I am he" That would be in sanskrit "SahAham" where Sah = he, Aham = I. The correct Translation is : Shivo = Siva(hindu god), Aham = I I.E "I am Shiva"

Please correct all the mistakes, let people familiar with Vedanata philosophy handle these all pages because they are knowers of these field. you can contact with "Ramakrishna MUTT @ USA"'s Swamis for the correct information.

Rest for now, correct these mistakes asap. :)

@Joshua Jonathan: ping to JJ.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Demise1234 (talkcontribs) 13:36, 24 April 2016

This is stuff for Ms sarah Welch and Ogress... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:41, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Oh i see, Thank you.
So.. @Ms Sarah Welch: & @Ogress:, Please take care of those silly mistakes :) and yes please consult Swamis of Ramakrishna Mutt, they're in US as well. Demise1234 (talk) 11:54, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
@Demise1234: The infobox does not state that this is the "first line" of the Nirvana Shaktam. It is hymns 3-6. Originally, the hymns 3-6 were added with "I am Shiva", which is more accurate. But, we can't do WP:OR in wikipedia, we must rely on presenting what is in the sources. So, if you want changes in the infobox, you need to provide a published verifiable source, not ask us to contact "Ramakrishna MUTT @ USA"'s Swamis. @Joshua Jonathan: I will restore the older 'I am Shiva', since I see support for it. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:00, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch: Source : http://greenmesg.org/mantras_slokas/brahman-nirvana_shatakam.php <-- With Translation when hovered ON slokas, you can look up for the meaning IN sanskrit dictionary as well, oh yes,one of the source already mentioned & is accepted by'you': http://www.svbf.org/journal/vol2no4/nirvana.pdf <-- I doubt if sources are checked before adding topics. Now, the reason why I used First line is to prove wrong the Statement i.e Wrong Translation "I am Thought, I am Joy" , if one(first) line denies i am not mind, intellect then how it can be later joy or thought :) , rest, Chida-anada = Consciousnes, Bliss, it is clearly mentioned in source i supplied as well as previously existed source in page as well. Next, why i said to contact Ramakrishna mutt? because at the end of the day, people should know what they are maintaining or into, so they have to go to masters of the field to "know" it, those swamis are masters so to speak in Vedanata philosophy as well as Sanatna Dharma, don't take it too personally lol, well for now, please correct those mistakes, that is the work to be done. :) Demise1234 (talk) 12:06, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch:Please also, REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atma_Shatkam , sounds OK, btw Atma Shatkam = Nirvana Shatkam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Demise1234 (talkcontribs)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Demise1234: Thanks, but greenmesg.org looks like a blog, not WP:RS. We also have WP:Copyvio guidelines, and that the summary should reflect multiple sources. You are mixing mind, thought, consciousness, etc; but please, we must avoid forum-like discussion on this talk page, per WP:TPNO. If you have any more WP:RS that should be considered, please share. I will check the published sources again whether, "I am Thought, I am Joy" should be changed to "I am Consciousness, I am Bliss" or Vivekananda-based "I am Knowledge, I am Bliss" etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:45, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: Mixing mind, thought ? thoughts are part of mind according to Advaita School therefore he says, i am not mind applies i am not thought no doubt in that, rest nevermind, i can expect these lines from person who is not familiar, secondly yes, good point,Consciousness or Knowledge, Both are correct, as Consciousness is only reality explained in Advaita therefore it is only the knowledge as well rest is Maya i.e Advidya i.e Not knowledge, this is the reason, you may find these statements(Consciousness or Knowledge) but since Knowledge is Secondary meaning given, therefore Word "Consciousness" or more precisely "Pure Consciousness" is taken into consideration like it is done here[1] by Sringeri Peetham which was established by Adi ShankaraCharya(well indirectly, precisely by one of his disciples) this is the reason why i said at first place,"if you may discuss 'this' with 'learned swamis'", now, yes it do reflect multiple sources, leaving aside greenmsg, since you termed it under blog and is not acceptable, the pre-defined source : http://www.svbf.org/journal/vol2no4/nirvana.pdf & one of the wikipedia page itself : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atma_Shatkam, and here as well http://vedicyagyacenter.com/wp-content/themes/vedic/pdfs/NirvanaShatakamLyrics-withtranslation.pdf <- published by a Vedic Center, rest, you can confirm this by looking up meaning of Sanskrit words, Chida, Ananda, Aham for your own Convince. Demise1234 (talk) 13:01, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch: Ahem!, it's been almost a day since no action, this is not professionalism or does "check-ing the published sources again" do take this long? Demise1234 (talk) 01:53, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
If "professionalism" means "delivering on command," than you may pay a professional salary. Otherwise, checking the sources carefully may take some time. Please show some due respect; your learned swamis probably have more respect for the depth of knowledge of Ms sarah Welch than for someone who ignorantly writes "i can expect these lines from person who is not familiar" without knowing what she knows. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:14, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
Regarding the text/translation itself: it's not the complete text yet, is it?
Regarding "cidAnandarupa": cit has more meanings than just "consciousness"; when we translate it as "consciousness," it's like some sort of reification, turning consciousness as a 'verb' into consciousness as an 'object' (English is not my native language, so I'm searching for the right words to express what I mean; my apologies if it's not clear enough). "Pure consciousness" may indeed be better, with the emphasis on "pure," as in the Buddhist Yogacara alajavijnana and the Buddha-nature. "Cit" may also be understood as not representing a metaphysical or ontological principle, but a 'psychological c.q. phenomenological insight' into the workings of the mind, and the 'emptiness' which 'remains' when concepts and names are deconstructed. But, alas, I'm a "Buddhist," ain't I, so what can you expect?
Regarding the whole translation: isn't there a copyright free translation available?
Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:10, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
PS: why "śivo'ham," and not "Brahmaham"? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:49, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
@JJ: I expected So'ham, found in their ancient Upanishads, such as the Isha Upanishad. Yet, the versions on internet read Shivo'ham. I haven't checked the archived original manuscripts. The phrasing is from satcitananda, and I don't think "pure X" makes it more clear, rather raises what is "impure X" and the difference between the two? WP:RS just go with truth-consciousness-bliss or similar. There are, indeed, a lot of parallels between Buddhism-Hinduism-Jainism. Each is beautiful, fascinating in its own way. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:20, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── "Truth-consciousness-bliss" seems to be one-dimensional to me. "Sat" has a much deeper connotation! I'd read it as 'the bliss of being aware of the essence of being', or some"thing" like that. Still, why Shiva, and not Brahman? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:08, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

May be poetic meter? I will have to dig into this, to offer more than a guess. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:27, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Indian?[edit]

What is this 'Indian' mentioned all over Wikipeidia? Was there any India before the creation of British-India?

All these great philosophies are at best some kind of intellectual past-time of a minor group of people somewhere in the subcontinent or even outside. A sample of the real people of the subcontinent, and also from where Sri Sankara is said to have originated can be seen on this link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.214.28.24 (talk) 15:45, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Misra's wife[edit]

@Nihoyari: Why is Misra's wife and the claimed Saraswati incarnation WP:Due in this article? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:06, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

@Nihoyari: I have once again removed the content you added to this article, because it was largely unsourced, undue, and unencyclopedic per WP:WWIN. The two sources you added are not WP:RS. We cannot present discredited hagiographies as historical facts, or anything that appears in blogs or personal commentaries / propaganda / opinions in some newspapers. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:56, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Comment: Thanks @JJ for adding the linking. I should have done it. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:53, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch : Before Adding Economic Times-Times of India , Outlook India, The Hindu and Indian Express Links, you removed the content. These are the most reliable links:
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-04-19/news/38674414_1_referee-mithila-debate
http://www.outlookindia.com/website/story/oh-but-you-do-get-it-wrong/262511
http://www.business-standard.com/article/beyond-business/the-management-trinity-116061401189_1.html
http://www.thehindu.com/2001/08/21/stories/1321017c.htm
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/Buddhist-Path-a-Way-to-Asian-Century-PM-Modi/2015/09/03/article3008470.ece

These tell in detail about one of the most celebrated ddebate between Ubhaya Bharati and Adi Shankara in 8th Century A.D The other links of Firstpost and Mid-Day are equally reliable:
http://www.firstpost.com/politics/as-pm-modi-goes-to-darbhanga-a-look-at-history-of-a-land-which-forced-the-shankaracharya-to-learn-kamasutra-2491768.html
http://www.mid-day.com/articles/transplant-this-soul-in-that-body/16565180
http://www.mid-day.com/articles/devdutt-pattanaik-agree-disagree-argue/16954167
--Nihoyari (talk) 14:37, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

@Nihoyari: Please see WP:HISTRS guidelines, then explain why are these reliable? Adi Shankara's life and works have been well studied by scholars and religion historians, who specialize in this area. This encyclopedic article must rely on the related scholarship. We should not base this article on gossip or op-ed columns of Indian or non-Indian tabloids and newspapers. Your allegation of "the most celebrated ddebate [sic] between Ubhaya Bharati and Adi Shankara in 8th Century A.D" is strange. Because the scholarly sources cited in this article state the confusion whether Misra and Suresvara were the same person; even the birth year of Adi Shankara is uncertain. Your claims are thus neither based on relevant scholarship, nor consistent with it. Further it is WP:Undue. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:49, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Indeed. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

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