Talk:Advanced steam technology

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Scope[edit]

We have to decide whether we are talking about modern steam locomotives or modern steam technology in general. At the moment, this is not abundantly clear.--John of Paris (talk) 02:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Lead paragraph[edit]

The final sentence of the lead paragraph is confusing. Does it refer to 'modern steam' engines in general, or Porta's railway locomotives specifically?

Also, where does the term 'modern steam' originate, and how should it be capitalised/puntuated? I can see scope for misunderstanding (eg "modern steam power plant", a steam power plant that is modern (whatever that implies!) vs "'modern steam' power plant" (eg), being a power plant that incorporates 'modern steam' principles and technology. Or am I reading too much into this?

EdJogg (talk) 13:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Good question. I've been asking them on the External combustion engine page the same question. They are pushing that term as if it had been around throughout the last century, whereas it's hard to trace it back beyond the 70s and now as you see, it has become an "engineering definition". But we may be pushing "Modern steam" in a similarly spurious way. Seems to have come out of the woodwork with Waller's Institute of Mechanical Mechanical Engineers lecture [1]. Even in that case it does not only apply to steam locomotives because he discusses new engines for old paddle steamers and one is working successfully on Lake Leman. The important thing here is that boiler is automatic and the steamer can be worked by a crew of three instead of the normal five. Same thing for the rack engine — one-man operation — two men for the whole train. In my opinion that rack engine design is quite simply a masterpiece. Will get back on all that as it's important.--John of Paris (talk) 19:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
That edit... I'd never have guessed it in a month of Sundays! Thanks for correcting it! EdJogg (talk) 19:52, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes , as I said, it was badly written. But as you see in the foregoing paragraph, we're discussing steam in general, whereas Porta concentrated entirely on Stephensonian locomotives, although do I know he was working on a steam bus project for Buenos Aires just before his death. Been trying to find out more about that over the last five years, but it it seems to be cloaked in secrecy.
Going back to your first question, it probably should be capitalised Modern Steam or Advanced Steam Technology as it does seem to be developing into a movement in which perhaps not all those working on steam projects would recognise themselves as members - IAV and their successors, certainly not. However when you look at all their literature, it leaps to the eye that they are all moving in the same general direction: for all of them steam is their medium and in spite of radical differences in their approach, are all attacking the same problems albeit in widely differing ways. Probably this is not an article for Wikipedia (yet) as it needs an original approach to put it over clearly. However, as I have always said, what bothers me is the fact that an intelligent WP general reader, curious to know what a steam engine actually is will mainly get "hot sources & cold sinks" thrown at him from one side and railfan chat from the other - and is likely to go away none the wiser and probably even more confused than before. — Sorry, but that's my honest opinion.--John of Paris (talk) 08:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Modern Steam or 'modern steam'?[edit]

As mentioned in the previous section, the term Modern Steam has been adopted by a number of parties involved in the development of advanced steam technology.

This poses us editors a few problems. When used in-line, the phrase is open to mis-emphasis (compare "modern steam engine" with "modern steam engine), unless suitable embellishments are provided. Adding single quotes nicely gets round the problem, but may be frowned upon when combined with a wikilink ('modern steam'), since the link may be considered to make the quotes redundant. Alternatively, the term could be capitalised (Modern Steam), but this can look odd, and mixed case (Modern steam) introduces further emphasis issues.

I have checked inward links to this article, adjusting them to employ the quoted term 'modern steam' where it is used in-line, but leaving 'See also' links to use the default (mixed case) article title. Portals and user pages have been ignored.

Within the article, I have used the fully-capitalised term Modern Steam exclusively. Unfortunately, having done so I now think it looks rather odd in places.

While this minor formatting problem would normally not be an issue – as the term in question would be in widespread use – here there is the real danger that whatever format we decide to use could influence other people's usage in the future.

I am now thinking that the best approach within the article is to use the quoted 'modern steam' form, and allow the world to decide on the need for capitalisation independently!

(If we're lucky, the term advanced steam technology, which needs neither quote nor capital, will take hold instead, and the problem will go away!)

EdJogg (talk) 12:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like the best solution and if we decide to rename it "advanced steam technology", which I for one have nothing against, we'd better not waste too much time in moving the article as these problems have the nasty habit of getting worse fast!
As for those later paragraphs, they were already in the article before I started working on it and I hadn't got round to serious editing. I don't usually touch texts already there until I've thought about them for a bit, which means that for a time an article can look a bit chopped-up.--John of Paris (talk) 18:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I'm happy with "Advanced steam technology". Biscuittin (talk) 10:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've gone with the, er, 'consensus' (!) and renamed the article as suggested. I have adjusted most of the terminology within, but would appreciate assistance in confirming that the new wording still makes sense. I am particularly concerned about 'Potential solutions...', which contains a very convoluted sentence, and 'History', where my change of yesterday ('last 20 years' --> 'since the 1970's') is still subject to confirmation.
[Update] Inward links have now been updated to suit. (Again, Portal, Talk and Archive pages have been left alone.)
EdJogg (talk) 13:54, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
[Update again] I've added some n-dashes to the 55-word sentence, and I think this solves the problem!
EdJogg (talk) 12:40, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Is Tornado advanced steam?[edit]

Tornado is certainly "modern steam" but is it "advanced steam"? It is basically a conventional locomotive but with some modifications listed at LNER_Peppercorn_Class_A1_60163_Tornado#Changes_from_original. Biscuittin (talk) 14:34, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, posted it twice. Biscuittin (talk) 14:35, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the first one, for clarity. This second one contained the same, and more, information. -- EdJogg (talk) 13:00, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Tornado still has essentially the same boiler arrangement as the originals, doesn't it? In which case it couldn't really be counted as 'Advanced'. -- EdJogg (talk) 13:00, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. Thermodynamically it's no different from the originals. There's a lot of improved metallurgy, quite a bit of constructional difference (welding rather than riveting), interchangeable off-the-shelf components used for small bearings etc. and more electrics. No real change to the design though. Duke of Gloucester had more change during its rebuild than Tornado did in a scratch build. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:25, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

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