Talk:Ahmadiyya–Jewish relations

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Religious acceptance of Israel

I have added a new heading to the article, duly sourced and referenced. Also made minor edits . You may delete if invalid..--ڈاکٹر محمد علی (talk) 14:13, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

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Why is it so ?


03:57, 22 May 2013 (UTC)Gam zu l'tovah (talk)

De-Orphaned[edit]

The article has been linked to the Ahmadiyya article. The Orphan message has been removed. --Drali1954 (talk) 11:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Ahmadiyya and the END of Israel (According to Ahmadiyya tafsir, or commentary)[edit]

In Volume IV of the 5-volume commentary of the Qur'an that is published by the Ahmadiyya Community, which is available online at alislam.org, there is extensive commentary on verse 106 of the chapter of the Qur'an entitled, Al-Anbiya. A section of that commentary says the following, referring to the existence of the State of Israel:

"But this is only a temporary phase. The Muslims are destined to win it back. Let the whole world know that sooner or later--sooner rather than later--Palestine will revert to Muslim possession. This is a Divine decree and nobody can alter God's decree." (See: http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1724&region=E1 )

I hope that I'm in the right section. If not, please feel free, of course, to delete this comment. I'm new to this, and since it said "talk page," I figured that it would be fine to comment here.

It is troubling to me that, on the one hand Ahmadis have stated, in videos at YouTube, and elsewhere, that Israel is "secular Jewish state" that allows freedom of religion (See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPUa1mCoi50 ). This sentiment is a clear endorsement, it seems to me, of the existence of the State of Israel.

And if that is so, then for what reason would God, who has provided Ahmadis in Israel the right to worship freely without hindrance, have created a "Divine decree" that Palestine will revert to Muslim possession? If the Ahmadis are treated well in Israel, without any interference in their religious practices, for what reason would they wish for Israel to be reverted to Muslim possession, especially considering the fact the Muslim world at large has declared them to be NON-MUSLIMS?

What would happen to Ahmadis if Muslims took over Israel? Would Ahmadis then suffer the same fate that they suffer in Pakistan, where they were once headquartered, and where, to this very day, they can be arrested for reciting the Kalima, i.e., the Islamic declaration of faith? In May of the year 2010, some 94 were slaughtered, in Pakistan, while praying in the mosque, by anti-Ahmadi Muslims (See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10190389 )

Ahmadis are also persecuted in Indonesia, a Muslim country: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMtwfFmFwN0 )

Ahmadis are banned from performing the Hajj (see: http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2012/04/religion/why-do-ahmadis-not-perform-hajj )

The tafsir, which I quoted above, is claimed to have come from Hazrat Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad, the second successor of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of Ahmadiyyat. Bashirruddin is considered, within Ahmadiyyat, to be the second most important Ahmadi figure, and he is revered tremendously, and his words are clung to, even though Ahmadiyyat has had two leaders after him. He is called, "The Promised Son," as he was the son of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, whom they believe to be the Promised Messiah.

So, the quote I provided is not lightweight. I think that the authors of this Ahmadiyya page, at Wikipedia, is doing the public a disservice in not allowing us to see this OTHER view of Ahmadiyyat regarding the State of Israel. In truth, just like millions of other Muslims, Ahmadis are longing for the day when the State of Israel no longer exists. I repeat:

"But this is only a temporary phase. The Muslims are destined to win it back. Let the whole world know that sooner or later--sooner rather than later--Palestine will revert to Muslim possession. This is a Divine decree and nobody can alter God's decree." (See: http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1724&region=E1 )

The article also states that the Qur'an prophesied the return of "Jews" to Israel: "And at the time of the Promise of the Latter days, I shall gather them together from amongst various people." There are a couple of huge problems with this. First, the idea that the Jews were brought back to the State of Israel. The State of Israel was created by Western powers, not by God. At this moment, entire countries are considering boycotting the State of Israel due to its ferocious mal-treatment of Palestinians. Israel is equated to the former Apartheid South

The second problem is the identity of "the Jews." Two Jewish Professors, Dr. Schlomo Sand and Dr. Eran Elhaik, have proven, beyond any doubt, that the "Jews" that run Israel, and that swear up and down that they are the direct descendants of the ancient Jews, are NOT directly descended from those ancient Jews.

Dr. Elhaik is a Jewish geneticist. He and his colleagues at the McKusick-Nathans Institute of Genetic Medicine, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, performed DNA research which proved that the "Jews" are not Jews, ethnically, biologically, or in any other way. The research was accepted December 5, 2012 and published by the Oxford University Press on behalf of the Society of Molecular Biology and Evolution. As regards Dr. Schlomo Sand, just search for his lectures at YouTube. He teaches at Tel-Aviv University, in Israel. Here's one of his lectures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EmvANgw9Mk .

The Jews that run Israel have not been "returned" from anywhere. To suggest such a return is to suggest that they are direct descendants of the Biblical Israelites. That is not the case at all. Both Dr. Schlomo Sand, as well as Dr. Elhaik, have proven that the "Jews" that run Israel are descended from a European tribe called the Khazars.

One might cite the fact that some Jews of India have been "returned" to Palestine. That might be a closer reality than the idea that the "Israeli," Ashkenazeem Jews have "returned" to Palestine. There is more evidence of them being descended from the original Tribes than the Ashkenazeem. The same is the case with the Beta Israel (the "Falashas"), the black Ethiopian Jews from Ethiopia, who actually CAN trace their Jewry back to Solomon.

But, even the bringing of those Jews to Israel cannot be said to be an act done by God, in my humble opinion, when we all know the conniving history surrounding the creation of the State of Israel. Anyone can read about it easily. It doesn't seem likely that a Good God would need the connivance of Britain and the United States.

Dr. Elhaik had not set out to prove this. He was actually studying genetic diseases, and needed a population that could trace its roots back for thousands of years. He then thought about his own people, the "Jews," and realized that they would be a "perfect" example for his genetic disease studies.

Well, while carrying out his experiments, he became shocked, as well as outraged, that what he had been taught, all of his life as a Jew, was false. One can imagine the outrage. Being an honest human being, he did not hide his studies. He published them.

Dr. Sand, on the other hand, conducted his studies through the historical approach.

It is my belief that this use, by Ahmadis, of the existence of the State of Israel to prove the "Messiah-ship" of their founder is not a good thing for them to do. It's up to them, of course, how to perceive their founder's status, etc. But, since we're in a relatively free world, I thought I'd put in my 2 cents.

In my view, Ahmadiyyat has forced an interpretation on scripture, and now that science has caught up with the lie of "Jewishness," if Ahmadis are honest they will have to revise their perspective, or, at the very least, re-evaluate that perspective; take a second look at that perspective.

I must state, also, that at the time of the creation of the State of Israel, Muhammad Zafarullah Khan, a famous Ahmadi, stood, at the United Nations, in defense of the Palestinian cause, and did so brilliantly. Why? If, in fact, the return of the Jews to Palestine was something that God wanted, then why would Muhammad Zafarullah Khan expend such intense energy in defending the Palestinian cause? Why would he not, instead, say, "Well, this is obviously the Will of God, because that is what we believe."

It seems strange to me that, in this article, Ahmadis support the alleged "return" of Jews to Israel--and use their interpretation of Qur'an to do so--while at the same time having carried, since 1947, a stance AGAINST the State of Israel; a stance that exactly mirrors the stance of millions of other Muslims: that Palestine belongs to the Muslims.

Here's the reference again: http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=1724&region=E1 .

It's towards the end of the second column [the right-side column] on that page.

Again, if this is not an appropriate "Talk" item, simply delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RDCHEESE (talkcontribs) 03:15, 20 March 2014 (UTC)