Talk:Aimee Semple McPherson

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Cleanup needed: Unencyclopedic tone[edit]

First, thanks to all prior editors who contributed to this article. It’s obvious that people have worked hard on this article. It’s unfortunate that this article has several severe and pervasive tonal problems. It looks like someone else already drive-by tagged this a few months ago with Template:Tone. In the spirit of responsible tagging, I’ll clarify here what I see as its most prominent tonal problems: peacock terms, editorializing, un-impartial tone with regard to controversies, overly lengthy paraphrases, and trivia unimportant to the article subject. These are particularly severe in the Legacy section, such as in (hiding citations):

In Fresno, California, 1921, nine-year-old Uldine Utley (1912–1995) became a fervent believer. After hearing McPherson's dramatic retelling of the David and Goliath story, the young girl tearfully gave her life over to Christ, and dedicated herself to be "a little David for the Lord and fight Goliath." With her parents as managers, she went on to preach to millions of people and converted many thousands. (The most notable of these was John Sung, who would become a major evangelical figure in China. Utley frequently used the same metaphors as McPherson, referring to Christ as "the Rose of Sharon" and invoking "Bride of Christ" imagery.

This could be contracted to the following single concise sentence:

McPherson influenced the beliefs and rhetoric of child preacher Uldine Utley.

…assuming that even this sentence is actually corroborated by the citations, rather than editorializing what they actually say. The large majority of the original passage is irrelevant information about Utley, not McPherson. But even ignoring that, “fervent believer”, “dramatic”, “tearfully”, “dedicated”, and “major” are all biased peacock terms; “believer” also is also ambiguous outside of context in comparison to the simple “Christian”, if that is what the cited source says. They belong in essays, not encyclopedia articles; further, if they appear in the original citations, then that in turn brings up problems of the citations’ reliability.

From what I can tell, there might also be other NPOV and citation-reliability problems that are shared with the subarticle (Faith healing ministry of Aimee Semple McPherson). There are also many unattributed statements in the article’s footnotes. But I’m going to only lightly touch this article’s tagging right now. The most immediately actionable problem here is tone.

It’s obvious that people have worked hard on this article. Hopefully this advice will help it to someday be a better article.

Good luck and keep up the hard work, everyone. Samppi111 (talk) 08:23, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we do not want to overly focus on other persons as this is an article about Aimee Semple McPherson.
Because this is the legacy section though, it should be noted how McPherson's influenced notable persons who went on to influence other prominent individuals (and in this instance accomplish something that McPherson could not not earlier do).
For example, the nine year old Uldine Utley was so inspired by McPherson's presentation, Utley, as a child and up to the time she was a young adult, became highly influential evangelist herself. John Sung, a Chinese-American scientist, almost by accident, attended one of Utley's meetings and became so caught up her enthusiasm that he went back to China and introduced millions to the Christian message. Sung became alternately known as the "Billy Graham" or the "John Wesley" of China. This is ironic since McPherson's early missionary efforts in China were unsuccessful and Western missionary efforts to China in general was a long and difficult process because of the low response rate. Sung accomplished in a few years what western missionaries were unable to do for many earlier, decades.
We can put in some detail like Utley planned to pick up a script for a play she was to perform in, however the drama club was closed that day and instead she went to the McPherson meeting. Also Sung was intent on seeing someone else about his crises of faith, however that person was not present and he saw Utley instead. These details though, should probably be migrated to articles about the persons of Ultey and Sung respectively, as it fills out their biographies more completely.
How to translate the balance (previous paragraph) into "Wikapese" where
--we want to preserve the spirit and intent of legacy as previously described
--not overburden the article with excessive detail
it might be rewritten as follows:
In Fresno, California, 1921, nine-year-old Uldine Utley (1912–1995) became an enthusiastic Christian after hearing McPherson's dramatic retelling of the David and Goliath story. With her parents as managers, using the same metaphors as McPherson, referring to Christ as "the Rose of Sharon" and invoking "Bride of Christ" imagery, she went on to preach to millions of people. The most notable of these was John Sung, a Chinese scientist studying in New York, who attended Utley's revival meetings in 1926 and became so inspired that he went back to China, an early mission field for McPherson, and introduced millions to the Christian message. Sung became alternately known as the "Billy Graham" or the "John Wesley" of China.
The paragraph should give us enough information about why these persons matter in Legacy in relation to McPherson, and also remove some of the objectionable terms such as "fervent believer" which is now "enthusiastic Christian."
SteamWiki (talk) 20:47, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Songs About Aimee Semple McPherson[edit]

You might want to add to your song list the 2017 recording of "Priestess of the Promised Land" by Los Angeles singer-songwriter Stan Ridgway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.77.150.85 (talk) 20:40, 13 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs an extensive re-write. It is framed like an extended, detailed, at times worshipful, biography. The tone is miles from impartial, and the article goes out of its way to praise and defend the subject at all times. I have begun addressing some of these problems but this will take more work from other people if it is to meet quality standards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khalfrodo (talkcontribs) 06:15, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Television versions[edit]

I mentioned this, and it got reversed.

I know the rule on 'original research', which can include mentioning the bloody obvious without an official source.

But I gave one. IMDb is a high-quality reference work, which includes a more informative pay site within it. And it does not allow anyone to just post anything: it is all vetted before being allowed. So my work qualified.--GwydionM (talk) 09:12, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IMDB, especially trivia, falls into the category of user-generated sources and is NOT acceptable. Read this information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources

I have a much more reliable source but I believe the reference needs to be made on the Perry Mason (2020) page not the McPherson page. Uri10iru (talk) 17:13, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-fascism template[edit]

SteamWiki you really think anti-fascism is a defining characteristic of the subject of this article? A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having. Can you point me to RSs that define her in this way? BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:18, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Their is the Sutton quote on 221 of his book, then again page 324 referencing the sources Sutton got it from, IE Bridal Call magazines dated mid -1930's page 221 "the powerful political movements that are sweeping the shores of Europe as a whole seem completly anti-Christian in every respect" "Unlike a few more radical fundamentalists , who leaned toward fascism, McPherson believed that fascism and communism represented two equally deplorable ideologies. Communists attempted to rule without God, while fascism sinned by claiming to represent the power of God. At a time when world turmoil signaled to Pentecostals that the Antichrist lurked on the horizon, McPherson began to integrate politics more explicitly into her sermons and writings. Christians who dodged political issues , she believed were simply misguided. For a nation in peril, only a spiritual renewal linked with a return to the traditions that had supposedly made American great could restrain the forces of the apocalypse." SteamWiki (talk) 07:37, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Deploring fascism is not the same as active anti-fascism. This does not show reliable sources commonly and consistently describing her as an anti-fascist. BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:06, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]