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Airgíalla and Oriel should be merged Airgíalla is for the IRish Wikipedia, as Gaeilge
Support Oriel being moved into this article/Airgíalla. El Gringo 01:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Do not support Oriel being moved into this article/Airgialla. (1) Oriel is not contemporaneous with Airgialla and (2)"Oriel" is not equivalent to "Airgialla". Suggest the Airgialla article refer to Oriel article, and that (3) Oriel article be edited. (1) "Oriel" is an Anglicized name that stems from Airgialla, first used after Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169. (2) "Oriel" is not equivalent to "Airgialla". "Oriel" (and "Uriel") refers to only a portion of Airgialla territory, the portion comprising Counties Louth and Monaghan. The rest of the Airgialla tribes never thought of themselves as belonging to Oriel. (3) The bones of the Oriel article are: Peadar Livingstone, in The Monaghan Story, says "The Ui Nadsluaig family of the O'Carrolls was pushing into Louth at this stage [1100's]and, under Donnchadh O'Carroll, a strong new Airgialla kingdom was established with Louth as its centre." This new kingdom was called Oriel. Oriel was short-lived. R. F. Foster explains, in The Oxford History of Ireland, that “John, lord of Ireland and later king of England (1199-1216) divided the O’Carroll (O Cearbhaill) kingdom between Gilbert Pipard and Bertram de Verdon on the death of King Murchadh in 1189. Louth, or Uriel, was rapidly colonized at the same time. Other Anglo-Normans were given grants all over Ireland in the 1200’s.” The Ua Cearbhaill (O’Carroll) family were Lords of Fernmaig in County Monaghan prior to expanding into County Louth and establishing the kingdom of Oriel. The MacMathghamhna (or MacMahon or McMahon) family, also of the clan Ui Nadsluaig, became dominant in County Monaghan after the Anglo-Normans dominated the O'Carroll family.184.108.40.206 20:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I've proposed merging this with Oirialla as they clearly refer to the same historical entity. I'm no student of medieval Irish history and the etymology of Irish place names, so I'll leave it to those who do know something about the subject to decide which direction the merger takes. Personally I prefer this name and it's also the bigger article so maybe easier to do that way. Enaidmawr 22:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- I did a brute force merge. Some contents may be duplicated, so cleanup is still needed. - Nabla (talk) 16:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Major Problems With Extent of Airgialla
Airgialla is said to extend from as far south as Louth to as far north as south county Londonderry and in breadth from Lough Erne to Lough Neagh. This is an area far larger than stated in the article. Also the Ui Tuirtri sub-kingdom of Airgilla ruled a vast tract of land that lay west of Lough Neagh all the way from Dungannon up to the River Moyola in County Londonderry, with the river forming a boundary between the Ui Tuirtri and the Fir Li, who the Ui Tuirtri would come to dominate. The remnants of the Ui Tuitri territory is preserved in the barony of Loughinsholin which is in County Londonderry, a good bit away from the suppossed boundaries stated in the article. Mabuska (talk) 20:55, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
- The map could surely do with replacing, but drawing a map is not so easy. And, since you mention the Uí Tuirtri, there's also the question of deciding when the map should cover. It could be for around 700 (so after Charles-Edwards Early Christian Ireland and Ó Cróinín Early Medieval Ireland) or around 800 (Byrne, Irish Kings and High Kings), or for something else again. The Uí Tuirtri surely didn't control the same region in 700 AD as 1000 AD. In 1000 AD, says Byrne (p. 125-6), they weren't really Airgíalla any more and "by the twelfth century the Uí Thuirtri had advanced so far that Ua Flainn was styling himself 'king of Dál Riata and Dál nAraidi'". Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:29, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
From the article: "Recent DNA testing has shown a unique DNA marker at 425 null or zero for male testers that are part of the R1b haplogroup. This is evidence of a highly related group of people from southern Ulster." The null at 425 is a RecLOH event, and doesn't necessarily imply a close relationship, although it may have significance within a surname group. This sentence should be modified or removed.Lexysexy (talk) 05:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- It has been needing a source for over a year so I will remove it. Thanks for the info. Mabuska (talk) 15:30, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
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