Talk:Albrecht von Wallenstein
|Albrecht von Wallenstein was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.|
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"force a just peace on the emperor in the interests of united Germany."
Is there a source for this Quote? I find it hard to believe that someone spoke of a united Germany at that time. There was a german language and being german meant speaking a german language as a native language (used in a broad sense, e.g. the dutch were considered germans) but nothing considered "Germany". Or was he referring to the unity of the empire ("Holy Roman Empire of German Nation")? That would make more sense, as the empire was split by the religous factions. 220.127.116.11 15:54, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Myth of Wallenstein
In the 18th and throughout the 19th century there was a great discussion on Wallenstein in Germany. It would be fine, if there was some information on this perception in the article.
The current article doesn't mention anything else than his military career as a warlord. There's no info how his military career started, no mention about his small "empire" he set up in northern Bohemia, no information how he devalued the currency in Czech lands to obtain more finances for the war. His political maneuvrings are barely mentioned. List of campaigns and battles is missing. Later fate of his wife and children is obviously uninteresting. Pavel Vozenilek 04:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Failed nomination - As per Pavel Vozenilek's comments above. The article is too incomplete. --Konstable 02:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing also about the enormous palace he had built in Prague, it still stands and part of it is now the official seat of the Czech Senate. Plch 01:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
"Wallenstein": Wallenstein's name was actually "Waldstein" or "Valdstejn" in the Czech transkription. The name Wallenstein was more or less invented by Schiller, probably because it matched better.
I am a German user and see, that the problem in the English story about Albrecht Eusebius Wenzel from Waldstein is, that you don´t no anything about his person. So look in the German storys of caesar Ferdinand II and Waldstein and let tell them you in English.
The following link gives some information about Hermanice, Czech Rebpulic: http://www.fallingrain.com/world/EZ/0/Hermanice4.html
- Well, the official site of Hermanice doesn't even mention the expulsion of the Germans, which is rather strange given the fact that this village was inhabit by Germans for at least 500 years until 1945. So, i wonder how true to the facts they are with the rest of their history. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 09:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
- "Born at Hermanic, Bohemia, 24 September, 1583; died at Eger, Bohemia, 24 February, 1634. He belonged to a Czech noble family of Bohemia who were members of the Bohemian Brethren"(). Stammer 18:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
- Wallenstein, or in fact Valdštejn, was not an ethnic German. Heřmanice was a Czech-German town - it was a Czech-German language border before 1945. So not purly German. Anyway, he came from two Czech noble families - Valdštejnové and Smiřičtí. --Zik2 (talk) 21:14, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Wallenstein's Death Inconsistent?
In this article, Wallenstein is purportedly killed by a "Walter Butler", an Irish count who was part of his military force, supposedly on orders from Emperor Ferdinand II. Yet, in the "Thirty Years War" article (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War), it states he was killed by a "Captain Devereux", who was one of his soldiers, as Wallenstein attempted to make contact with the Swedes.
Anyone have the correct answer, and if so, please update both articles?
Tommy6860 09:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC) Tom
He was killed by Walter Devereux, one of his army´s officials. The reasons are not very clear according to several historians who have studied this assassination.
- After browsing through two major biographies (those of Golo Mann and Hellmut Diwald), allow me to add some information:
1. his name: spelling in general was not fixed in the 17th century, when the concept of a universal, fixed orthography seemed still very remote. Besides, a name can changed over the centuries, as the language itself changes. According to bis biographers, the name of the family as first recorded in the 13th century, was Waldnstein, of which first Waldstein and later Wallenstein became easier to pronounce varieties. The latter form was used less before Schiller published his famous triology in 1799, but according to Mann, the duke himself signed his name as Wallenstein at least once.
2. his murderes: the man who rammed a partisane through the unfortunate's duke chest on the night of February 25 was Walter Deveroux, an Irish mercenary captain. Walter Butler was another Irishman, a colonnel of Dragoons, who helped organize this murder, and participated himself in the killing of Ilow, Trčka, and Kinsky.
3. his nationality: calling him either a Czech or a German would hide the fact that he was equally at home in either culture, spoke both languages, and counted himself among the princes of the Holy Roman Empire - which combined many nationalities in one fragile union. Officially, by the standards of his days, there was no Czech nation as such, there was Bohemia, a constituent state of the Habsburg Monarchy. With respect to statehood and citizenship, there was no such thing as Germany either, only the Empire, and some German states outside it (like East Prussia). Textor (talk) 23:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Wallenstein's nationality is not sure, Germans say he was a German, Czechs say he was a Czech, this is not what I want to speak about. Absolutely sure is, that the project „Germany“ is not right in his case in my humble opinion. Even if he his nationality would be German, he didn't live in Germany. There was Holy Roman Empire, but in this empire lived many nationalities, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Dutchmen, Slovenians and others. In 1620, the Czech lands were connected to Austria - and it's not Germany. Germany, as a real national state, is there since the 19th century. --Zik2 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
- Because I didn't get any answer after more than one month, I'm changing the wikiproject to "Wikiproject History". If you want to deny my view and give the wikiproject back, I'm looking forward to discussing. --Zik2 (talk) 19:50, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- Not a regular Wikipedia user but I wanted to comment: Wallenstein's nationality IS sure, he was Czech. It is just the name that sounds German. And I think it is justified to classify him as an important person in German as well as Czech history (and in the history of the Holy Roman Empire, naturally). And there is no contradiction in it. Modern definitions of "nationality" make no sense applied to the 17th century. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs)
- An article can be in a number of WikiProjects - in this case he is of interest because of his involvement in the 30 year war which had a major influence on Germany as it stands now. Being tagged for a project does not imply nationality or ownership it simply means that the project in question has a vested interest in that article. Agathoclea (talk) 12:05, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say so. "Germany" was a geographical and political term even in Wallenstein/Valdstejn's lifetime, and has been since the Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages, all the "Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire" were crowned 'Kings of Germany' beforehand. So the term "Germany" was always there, although the political definitions varied. Bismarck in 1871 created the German nation-state (called the "German Empire", no longer the "Roman Empire"), but the name "Germany" is older. (And it is only from 1871 on that the term "Germany" excludes Austria.)126.96.36.199 (talk) 15:20, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, O.K., I just think present stadium, created by me (both WikiProject Czech Republic and WikiProject Germany) is good. Agathoclea told Wallenstein (Valdštejn) was joined to the WikiProject Germany, because he has a strong influence in today's Germany. The same in the Czech Republic - Wallenstein built many sighteens in Prague and in northern and eastern Bohemia. --Zik2 (talk) 16:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
- @Zik2 - your comment from 2009-01-07 - Germany, as a real national state, is there since the 19th century. Since when exists a real tchech national state? 1993-01-01? Late 20th century? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 12:22, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
- When The Czech Kingdom (České království) came into existence
I wondered about the last paragraph before the 'Treachery and death' section where his guilt of treachery is claimed:
- 'Wallenstein had, in fact, started preparing to desert the Emperor: he expressed anger at Ferdinand's refusal to revoke the Edict of Restitution. History records little about his secret negotiations; but rumors told that he was preparing to force a just peace on the Emperor in the interests of united Germany, at the same time hesitating — as he used to do in other respects — and trying to stay loyal to the Emperor as far as possible. With this apparent "plan" he entered into negotiations with Saxony, Brandenburg, Sweden, and France. But, apparently, the Habsburgs' enemies tried to draw him to their side. In any case, he gained little support. Anxious to make his power felt, he at last resumed the offensive against the Swedes and Saxons, winning his last victory at Steinau on the Oder in October. He then resumed negotiations.'
That 'in fact' Wallenstein was 'preparing to desert the Emperor' is not verified by a reference. The 'evidence' put forth here seems to be flimsy ( 'rumors told that he was preparing to force a just peace on the Emperor' ), and for whatever reason the very hefty article on Wallenstein in the German Wikipedia (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallenstein) does only mention accusations of treachery. I find it hard to equalise peace negotiations with treachery, not to mention desertion. All told the bombastic 'in fact' currently seems to rest on contemporary rumours and accussations - but as I'm no expert on Wallenstein or the Thirty Years' War there may be good evidence out there. As it is, however, I suggest adding such evidence (referenced accordingly), and/or modify to reflect accusations of rather than proven treachury. And that he is considered to be guilty by his own 'top brass' (the Emperor) who wants a tougher line against the Protestants, has a replacement ready, and apparently has him assassinated (rather than formally convicted) does not exactly chime well with a wealth of evidence against Wallenstein.
Place names and some errors
First, please read WP:PLACE. Some errors corrected:
- His uncle Jindrich was not member of Herrnhuter in 1595, as they were founded in 1722.
- No, his parents were (as majority of Czech population was then) members of the Czech brethern who were founded in 1457, and who were just precursors of the Herrnhutteren (read more details of the story in the linked article). They certainly were not Lutherans (there were almost no Lutherans among Czechs), and I don’t think they were Utraquists. At least Czech wikipedia is clear on this point.
- " ..the money would go back to the province" Moravia was autonomous land, with own money, Army, citizenship etc. not province.
- Egerland was part of Bohemia from 1322. For English name of the city, try googletest (Cheb 45 300 000 ghits)
- Nekšova - see Britannica "to an elderly Czech widow, Lucretia Nekšova"
- Heřmanice (Náchod District) - Heřmanice is name of the article, is used in the Britannica and gtest - Hermanitz 8000, Heřmanice 1 900 000
- Jindřich Slavata of Chlum and Košumberk - compare with Vilem Slavata of Chlum and Košumberk Castle
- Re-Catholisation - redlink changed to Counter-Reformation
- Jičín - article is Jičín and gtest - Jičín 18 700 000, Jitschin 38 400
- Olomouc, article is Olomouc, gtest Olomouc 42 300 000, Olmutz 808,000
Official language in Bohemia and Moravia was Czech (, " from 1430 on the number of documents in Czech grew and in ca. 1470 won a leading rank. In its capacity as the official language, Czech survived until the 17th century.", "The Czech language remained the first language in the kingdom.".
If you use German sources, please understand, that we are in English wiki and we must use English names. Argument, that some name is in German source, is wrong. If someone use source in Chinese, will be Berlin 柏林? No.--Yopie (talk) 04:24, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- There is no rule in WP:PLACE calling for removal of non-Czech names as you did, to the contrary, WP:PLACE encourages giving alternative names in the appropriate contexts. The article should use German as well as Czech spellings (Chinese is not relevant here), because of the following context:
- Bohemia was bilingual at that time. (The "official language" quote above from Jurek (2004) refers to chancellories in Upper Silesia around the 16th cty)
- Wallenstein was bilingual (an exclusively German speaker when he was an adult though).
- Wallenstein was important for Bohemia but even more so for Germany.
- Wallenstein lived long before nationality came to have the modern meaning. (I have sourced that with respect to Wallenstein in the article)
- Wallenstein's most-read English bios are most certainly those of Friedrich Schiller and Golo Mann in their respective English translations, which use the German names.
- Other English works also use the German variants, e.g. compare googlebooks search for Wallenstein+Eger+death to Wallenstein+Cheb+death, with the addition that many books of these samples use both names. (The search results above are not really relevant as they just resemble web entries instead of scholary use in the context of Wallenstein and his era)
- There is a consensus to use German as well as Czech variants as evident from the page history.
- The article should thus feature both the German and Czech names/spellings for places and family members. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- WP:PLACE not encourages for not used, historical names. "Use modern English names for titles and in articles. Historical names or names in other languages can be used in the lead if they are frequently used and important enough to be valuable to readers, and should be used in articles with caution." Use with caution is warning, not encouraging. Wallenstein bilingualism, importance for Germany or nationality is not impotrant in this context. And about bios by Schiller and Golo Mann - do you have source, that are most read? Naming policy prefer books published after 1993. --Yopie (talk) 13:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- WP:PLACE is designed primarily for article titles, but nevertheless encourages the use of alternate names, in the section "alternate names": "Wikipedia articles must have a single title, by the design of the system; this page is intended to help editors agree on which name of a place is to appear as the title. Nevertheless, other names, especially those used significantly often (say, 10% of the time or more) in the available English literature on a place, past or present, should be mentioned in the article, as encyclopedic information." WP:ENGLISH further calls for inclusion of alternatives. Also, it is long-standing practice to do so, even here (see edit history). Skäpperöd (talk) 16:14, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
There is no grammatical or expository reason to italicize current Czech names of formerly ethnic-German localities in the Czech Republic. In English, italics usually denote foreign (non-English) words for things or concepts, but not place names. Since 1945-46, Cheb – formerly known as Eger – has officially been Cheb, not Cheb, and the Czech name should not be italicized.