Talk:Alexander Hamilton

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edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Alexander Hamilton:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
  • Article requests : In the "Memorials" section, add a reference to and a link to the Nevis Historical & Conservation Society. The Museum of Nevis History, loctated in Charlestown, Nevis is called The Alexander Hamilton Museum and is built on the foundation of Alexander Hamilton's birthplace. This museum is dedicated to both the history and culture of Nevis as well as the life of Alexander Hamilton.
  • Expand : Hamilton and the Battle of Princeton; Hamilton's private negotiations with George Beckwith, the British agent; Hamilton and the speculators, including the bailout of William Duer; Hamilton's attacks on Philip Freneau, and the misquotation.
  • NPOV : Clean up laudatory language.

Personal life[edit]

Why is Hamilton's personal life section below his legacy section? I think the two should be switched at the very least. We might consider placing it more toward the top. Rklawton (talk) 17:30, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I rearranged it; didn't really make sense to have "legacy" before "personal life" Snuggums (talk / edits) 00:04, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Popular culture[edit]

  1. When facts asserted aren't supported by the source, it's probably a good idea to remove them - especially from a prominent article. Rklawton (talk) 18:46, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  2. A review of a performance is not a sufficient source to make historical claims about a subject's relevance to popular culture. Sure, it's probably a good source of information about the performance - but that's about it. Rklawton (talk) 18:46, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  3. Citing omission from a reference book on popular culture constitutes original research, and I know you know better. What we need is a reliable source that affirmatively supports the assertion that Hamilton has been ignored by popular culture.
  4. I could counter the omission from cultural guides with the raw fact that there are over 1,400 distinct geographic locations in the United States that include "Hamilton" in their names. But drawing a conclusion from a bare fact (as you did) is also original research, and I won't do it. Rklawton (talk) 18:46, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Please feel free to respond in-line if you wish. Rklawton (talk) 18:46, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

1) all assertions are cited. 2) When dealing with popular culture, the reviews by the specialists in the leading media demonstrate the evaluation by experts-- the claim is that Hamilton is finally in the popular culture in 2015 as attested by the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Variety, and the New Yorker among others. It appears that Rklawton never bothered to read the cited sources. 3) Original research is forbidden only when it is not sourced & cited-- this research is fully sourced & cited & anyone can immediately access it online within one minute. 4) There are lots of places named Hamilton all across the US & the British Empire--It's a very common name. I don't think any of them were named after our Alexander Hamilton. He was politically very unpopular in the frontier areas where new towns were being formed and named. The faces on the currency and coins are a matter of popular culture, so so that most Americans I think are quite aware that Hamilton's face is on the $10 bill. Rjensen (talk) 19:02, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
David Brooks is a famous analyst of American popular culture. He says, "Every once in a while a piece of art brilliantly captures the glory, costs and ordeals of public life. Steven Spielberg’s “Lincoln” did that. And so does Lin-Manuel Miranda’s “Hamilton,” now playing at The Public Theater in New York." The Los Angeles Times says, "The new musical has received rave reviews...and has also sparked a wider cultural conversation for its casting of minority actors in the roles of America's Founding Fathers." This is exactly the Evidence that is needed to show that historical Hamilton is in 2015 inside the popular culture. Rjensen (talk) 19:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for underestimating the impact of the musical, Rjensen. Before reading the David Brooks quote, I didn't think it would be as significant to Hanilton's depictions as things like Daniel Day-Lewis playing Abraham Lincoln in Steven Spielberg's Lincoln. The reviews added also help it stand as a separate section. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:27, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
My objection is the assertion that Hamilton has been absent from pop-culture until now. No source cited says he has been absent. Yes, we've got sources about pop culture that don't include him, but that's not the same thing. Rklawton (talk) 22:43, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

What Rjenson "thinks" isn't of interest. What Rjensen can source is. A quick search that Rjenson should have done turns up:

  • CA Alexander Hamilton High School
  • DC Alexander Hamilton Statue
  • IN Alexander Hamilton Elementary School
  • MA Alexander Hamilton School
  • MD Alexander Hamilton Elementary School
  • MI Alexander Hamilton School
  • NJ Alexander Hamilton Plaza
  • NJ Alexander Hamilton Elementary School
  • NY Alexander Hamilton School
  • NY Alexander Hamilton High School
  • NY Alexander Hamilton House
  • NY Alexander Hamilton Elementary School
  • NY Alexander Hamilton Square
  • NY Alexander Hamilton Bridge
  • NY Alexander Hamilton Playground
  • NY Alexander Hamilton Custom House
  • OH Alexander Hamilton Junior High School
  • TX Alexander Hamilton Junior High School
All I'm asking for is a reliable source that specifically says Hamilton hasn't been part of our popular culture for the last two hundred years (other than the rare honor of having his face on our currency). Or - just remove that bit from the article. This really isn't a big deal. Rklawton (talk) 22:47, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Well you have it: I cited a monumental encyclopedic guide to American popular culture with many thousands of listings, in which the editors decided to give zero space to Alexander Hamilton. The text does not say he had zero role-- it says he had an inconspicuous role as decided upon by the experts on the history of American popular culture. I just looked again at The guide to United States popular culture (2001) with over 1000 pages of double columned text, and prepared by 23 editors from 20 different colleges and universities, with dozens of contributors; The index has 630 columns of about 16,000 items that made the cut. Alexander Hamilton did not make the top 16,000 -- But six other people named "Hamilton" did. That I suggest is what evidence looks like when the person is not an important part of American popular culture. As for the high schools that Rklawton mentions, none of them made the top 16,000 either--though it did mention that one person had graduated from "Alexander Hamilton high school." In other words, the statement about Hamilton's status in the Popular culture are supported by the source. Rjensen (talk) 23:20, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Secretary of the Treasury, Operations of the Act Laying Duties on Imports[edit]

Should there be a subheading for Operations of the Act Laying Duties on Imports? It seems to be the only subject listed in the opening paragraph of this section without a sub section. It could fit between Report on Public Credit and Report on a National Bank.

This could cover 1789: Hamilton I, 1790: Hamilton II, and 1792: Hamilton III tariffs and the importance of customs revenue. This would then tie in to the renaming of the U.S. Custom House in NYC to the Alexander Hamilton U.S. Custom House. Thanks, Zeete (talk) 19:06, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Unfortunately, there wasn't that much information that I could obtain from it as far as secondary sources outside of the brief information given under the Whiskey as Tax Revenue sectionn. It was one of the areas that I planned on expanding once this GA review process is over, since I do plan on trying go get this article to obtain an FA status if possible. Heck, even the link provided doesn't list more than the copy of the report itself. I'll reread Chernow and try to obtain a physical copy of Murray's book on Hamilton (among other authors) when I get the chance, but I cannot expand as of now. Thanks for your concern, and I'm truly sorry I could not be of assistance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeftAire (talkcontribs)
    • With or without this, I've passed the article for GA- congratulations! STRONGLY RECOMMEND putting this up for another peer review before going for FA, though. Snuggums (talk / edits) 00:07, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
      • Thanks! Definitely will get another peer review! Just a matter of when... LeftAire (talk) 00:12, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the update. Great article! Zeete (talk) 12:01, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Copy-edit[edit]

I think that asking for a copy-edit before a FA nomination should be tried. Maybe someone could reach the GOCE. Lutie (talk) 16:19, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

That is definitely in the plans, along with another peer review. I feel that the prose isn't quite the FA status that is needed (not to mention the inconsistency in the presentation of the citations for an FA in contrast to a GA). It is in the works, just a matter of when. Thanks for your concern! LeftAire (talk) 23:24, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

a bit of obvious copy-editing[edit]

  • Where I attended elementary school everybody learned that "p." mean "page" and "pp." means "pages"
  • Under WP:MOS, ranges of pages, ranges of years, ranges of letters of the alphabet, ranges of measurements, etc., require an en-dash, not a hyphen, thus: pp. 57–61, NOT pp. 57-61.
  • Under WP:MOS one does not capitalize an initial letter merely because it's in a section heading, thus "Post-Secretary years", NOT "Post-Secretary Years".
  • I don't know whether in some communities within the English-speaking world it is standard to write p.8 instead of p. 8, but when I inquired on Wikipedia's language reference desk, everyone said it's non-standard. I've seen it only on Wikipedia and not elsewhere, AFAIK.

I've done some copy-editing in accordance with these points. Michael Hardy (talk) 00:05, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson and Republican party being referred to as Democratic-Republican Party[edit]

Why is this lie perpetuated. One has only to read Thomas Jefferson's papers. Thomas Hugh William Luke — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.229.39.56 (talk) 06:38, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Is not a lie. Political scientists prefer the term "Democratic-Republican Party" And use it in their textbooks, while historians prefer "Republican Party." Jefferson himself called the Republican Party. Rjensen (talk) 06:41, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Early Military Career needs updating[edit]

Full Disclosure: I am the author of the book and article mentioned below.

In light of recent research (see also Google Books), Hamilton's Early military career needs updating. (Other sections also need updating, but one thing at a time.) As this could be considered a "major edit," it contradicts previous biographies, and I am the author, I felt opening a discussion prior to editing the page made the most sense.

PS I'm a newbie at Wikipedia editing, so please excuse any ignorance or faux pas on my part. FoundingFatherFan (talk) 21:56, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia's Alexander Hamilton page! yes please help out. However you can't cite your own new book. It's self-published and that's a major problem see wp:UGC . However, you can cite other scholars & the primary sources that you used. This is especially important if you are challenging published biographies (such as Chernow p 63) In general, Wikipedia strongly discourages the publication of new findings here. look at wp:RS Rjensen (talk) 23:01, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
@FoundingFatherFan: (edit conflict)The page you refer to says, "Self-published material may sometimes be acceptable when its author is an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been published by reliable third-party publications." Does that include public speeches about Hamilton, one of which was broadcast by CSPAN3 and another one to be broadcast shortly? How about reviews of the book by well-known Hamilton experts and biographers? Just as we cite Chernow rather than primary sources, largely because those documents are often not readily available to the public, it would be much more useful to cite my book rather than the lengthy citations (the citations and other supporting material regarding Hamilton's early military career take up more than two pages in the endnotes). Thank you Rjensen for the advice.FoundingFatherFan (talk) 23:16, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Well no--broadcasts don't work well. see WP:RS becuae we have MANY published books. you need published reviews in the scholarly literature to demonstrate you're an expert, and even then it's dicey. Please do NOT try to use Wikipedia to publish new results that only you have validated. Rjensen (talk) 23:54, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
@FoundingFatherFan: (edit conflict) Thanks for announcing your conflict of interest. While you are welcome to improve Wikipedia, I would caution you about using your own book as a reference for same. I think WP:BRD is the best way for you to proceed. Be bold, if you get reverted you'll need to discuss the issue and determine consensus. Please be aware that consensus includes all of us dilettantes that don't study the subject to the degree you may have. You may find this frustrating. Chris Troutman (talk) 23:05, 24 July 2015 (UTC)