Talk:Ali Hassan Salameh

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Untitled[edit]

The POV in this article seems somewhat skewed but I don't know enough about him to change it. Lamjus 02:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. It might be worth mentioning the other 8 people murdered with him - eg http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/4627388.stm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.105.165.78 (talkcontribs).

I'm going to remove some of the "see also" links because many are only tangentially related. Joshdboz 00:21, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Stop deleting Hebrew name[edit]

How on earth is this POV to have Salameh's name in Hebrew as well as Arabic? Remember the conflict he was involved in... the Israeli-Arab one... remember the language they speak in Israel... Hebrew? Jamezcd 16:52, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I have checked the pages of renouned israeli figures involved in the Arab-Israeli conflict (eg: Amir Peretz), their names are not mentioned in arabic, however am not going to delete the hebrew name cause its not worth starting an editing war80.227.171.98 14:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)Mr Bean

Actually that aricle does have the Arabic. 24.148.29.165 (talk) 00:34, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ali Hassan Salameh car.jpg[edit]

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Year of birth[edit]

It says here that he lived from 1940 to 1979. In the Qula article however, it says that he was born in 1943. Which is true? -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:48, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Further, the claim of his birthplace being near Jaffa is completely incorrect, according to The Algemeiner in a 01/22/17 post, which states that Sala,eh was not even a Palestinian, having been born in Iraq, raised in Egypt, and joined the PLO in 1964 in Kuwait. Source: https://www.algemeiner.com/2017/01/22/official-palestinian-news-agency-mourns-munich-olympics-terrorist/ -- marshall_schwartz@att.net — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C5B1:9840:147E:E4DF:56:B18C (talk) 02:14, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

That's funny; an op-ed by the anonymous racist Elder of Ziyon as a reliable source! Forget it. This example of what tripe Algemeiner is prepared to publish shows again why Algemeiner should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Ali Hassan was probably born in his father's village, which was Qula. You can find this in a few places, for example in this book. Zerotalk 03:04, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Battles/wars ? Needs to be changed to terrorist attack[edit]

The box on the top right of the dead terrorists' page lists the Munich Massacre as a "battle/war". This was a terrorist attack in which Palestinians murdered unarmed civilians including one American and 10 Israelis. It should NOT be listed as a battle/war unless the writer of the article is seriously delusional.

End the whitewash, bias and flat out lies. Get your facts straight Wikipedia ! !

Munich[edit]

Salameh was apparently assassinated because he was behind the Munich attack, yet the article says nothing about Munich. Can this omission be rectified.Royalcourtier (talk) 03:03, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Parentage[edit]

I have inserted information about this man's father. Although the more complete description is on his father's page, a short description is relevant here. In particular, his fathers work for Germany in the early 1940s is relevant to Hassan Salameh growing up in Germany during this same time period.OtterAM (talk) 23:50, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

RfC on whether the article should include more detailed background about his father[edit]

No consensus: The effective result is not to mention the father's connection to Nazis at this time.

This is a very borderline case. It is a very fuzzy question how much second-hand information about relatives should be included in a biographical article. North8000's response well reflects the discussion, slightly leaning towards inclusion. It was very tempting to accept that slight lean as an RFC outcome. However a minimal lean isn't a consensus. Both sides had reasonable positions, and the raw count would have been tied if North8000 had leaned the other way. A no-consensus normally defaults to the stable version of the article prior to the contested edit. The stable version of the article did not mention the father's Nazi connection.

If additional sourcing were to indicate how the father's work with the Nazis had an influence on his son's life, that would likely establish relevance for inclusion here. Alsee (talk) 07:42, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the entry on the early life of Ali Hassan Salameh mention that his father was working for Nazi Germany and leader of the Ali Hassan Salameh during Ali Hassan Salameh's childhood? Or should it just mention that his father was killed by the Israeli Defense Forces (original version)? The difference between two versions can be seen here: [1]. OtterAM (talk) 00:24, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

  • No. We have wikilinks to lead readers to more information on related topics. Besides that, your text "loyal to Nazi Germany" is without foundation. Salameh (snr) was a Palestinian nationalist who accepted help from Nazi Germany, not the other way around as your words suggest. I'll also note that the source you give does not support your claim, though it does support the debunked poison wells myth. Zerotalk 02:35, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Yes - sorry for the cliche' but "Wikipedia seeks to create a summary of all human knowledge in the form of an online encyclopedia, with each topic covered encyclopedically in one article." If the info is cited using RS, it should be included. Atsme📞📧 15:35, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
You contradict yourself with "each topic covered encyclopedically in one article" (my emphasis). This is an article about Ali Hassan Salameh, not about his father. His father has his own article where this topic is already covered. Zerotalk 01:02, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
No, it is not a contradiction. An encyclopedic biography of a notable person who has a notable parent, spouse, or child should include brief mention of that parent, spouse or child with a wikilink to the main article. A biography is an account of someone's life, and having a notable parent is certainly part of someone's life. Adding a wikilink to the father's article satisfies deorphaning in situations where there are no other wikilinks, or it creates more wikilinks in an article which is good for the project because it is considered "an important aspect of building the web." I presume the father's bio mentions the son and includes a wikilink to this bio. Atsme📞📧 02:03, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
It is fine to mention a famous relative, but the mention should be brief and be restricted to the reason for the fame. What daddy did during the war (basically nothing) is only important for those who wish to spread the Palestinian=Nazi calumny to as many articles as possible. Daddy only made an actual impact on history as a Palestinian leader during the 1936-9 revolt and again in the 1948 war. Zerotalk 02:13, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Citing RS is the benchmark for proof. I have no opinion regarding your comment about "those who wish to spread the Palestinian=Nazi calumny to as many articles as possible." WP policy states that editors should indicate the relative prominence of opposing views. Atsme📞📧 02:52, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Everything I have written is based on reliable sources. There are many detailed descriptions of Salameh snr's militant life in Palestine but rarely more than a passing sentence about his life in Germany. That's because he didn't do anything of note In Germany. I am following the weight given in reliable sources; you are not. Zerotalk 09:30, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Except, of course, that according to the 2 sources linked in this discussion he was trained by Natizi military in Germany during WWII. Are you seriously maintaining that a man who traveled to Nazi Germany during the War to be trained in the arts of war by the Nazi military "didn't do anything of note In Germany"?E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:39, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
It is already in the article of the man who got the training. And yes, it is nothing of note in an article about someone else. Zerotalk 01:23, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure why you are so insistent on omitting factual information under the guise of it being weighted because it clearly is not. There are multiple sources that support the Nazi Germany connection to Hasan Salameh and his son Ali - in fact, attention was drawn to the father-son connection, one of which leads with the following text: "...there were many other examples of individual, cross-generational, and organizational continuity between the Nazi and contemporary eras. One such story is that of the soldier in the German and al-Husaini armies, Hasan Salameh and his son Ali, the Fatah and PLO commando leader." It goes on to describe how Hassan joined the German army and was trained as a commando on pg 242 of the book, Nazis, Islamists, and the Making of the Modern Middle East, authored by Barry Rubin, Wolfgang G. Schwanitz, published by Yale University Press. One or two sentences stating an historic fact that is reliably sourced does not create a weight issue, especially if quoted with an inline citation.Atsme📞📧 13:57, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
  • No. As noted above, the given reference, Mitchell, p. 136 does not support it. (Though that reference should in any case be used with care...eg. it writes that Arafat was relative of the Mufti (He was not.)) Huldra (talk) 20:29, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Then change the cited source to Mallmann and Cüppers, Nazi Palestine, pg 75 - Publisher: Enigma Books (July 1, 2010). Tone it down to NPOV levels by quoting the book: "The other major commanders of anti-Zionist Arab guerrillas in 1947–8, Abd al-Qadir al-Husseini, a relative and close associate of the Mufti, and Hasan Salama, also spent the war years in Nazi Germany." It should be included so readers have an accurate summary according to RS. It's not our job to change history by elimination. Atsme📞📧 21:06, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
That source still not says "loyal to Nazi Germany". Salameh was a Palestinian leader who sought support wherever he could get it. He was not a Nazi leader who happened to support the Palestinian cause, and that is what you make it sound like, Huldra (talk) 21:14, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Maybe we could use the word "allegiance" or something similar? That's the usual terminology that the infoboxes use. OtterAM (talk) 21:41, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Ugh, Adopting terminology from the infobox is like having the tail wagging the dog. Not acceptable. Huldra (talk) 21:47, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
Huldra, please read what I wrote in my 2nd comment which cites a different book. I clearly stated "Tone it down to NPOV levels" and even provided a quote from the book. I don't have a problem with removing "loyal to Nazi Germany" until the "loyalty" claim can be properly sourced. The quote I referenced actually does say he was a major commander of anti-Zionist Arab guerrillas in 1947–8 who spent the war years in Nazi Germany, and that is what I suggested including in place of the unsourced claim. Atsme📞📧 23:30, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
BTW, what does 'loyal to Nazi Germany' mean? One can only be loyal in some capacity or other (friend, wife, soldier, servant, party member). In what sense and way was this person loyal to Nazi Germany? It doesn't mean anything on its own. Pincrete (talk) 19:51, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment Compare this article with the article of Anita Bose Pfaff, whose father, Subhas Chandra Bose was a hundred times more important to the nazis, that the father of Ali Hassan Salameh. And strangely, no-one has is mentioning his nazi connection in the lead of the Anita Bose Pfaff article....... Lol. Huldra (talk) 22:01, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
  • No As far as I can tell from the presented sources, the proposed text is an extremely selective, exaggerated and distorted version of what the sources say and it is about his father, not the subject. A more neutral brief descriptor of the father, (Arab Nationalist? commander of the Palestinian Holy War Army? or whatever succinctly summarises his father's principal notability) might be helpful, the proposed text screams mud-slinging.Pincrete (talk) 17:44, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Yes. Summoned by bot. Relevant and encyclopedic. However, per source, should be "trained by" Nazi Germany rather than "loyal to," unless additional sources can substantiate that. Coretheapple (talk) 13:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
  • No per above comments. The article is not about his father, what is the purpose of including it here? (Summoned by bot) Seraphim System (talk) 16:23, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Yes, it's routine to have brief descriptors about notable parents, grandparents and children:
  • "Rashid Khalidi was born in New York City, New York. Khalidi is the son of Ismail Khalidi and the nephew of Husayin al-Khalidi.[2] He is the father of playwright Ismail Khalidi and activist/attorney"
  • "Rami George Khouri was born 22 October 1948 in New York City to an Arab Palestinian Christian family. His father, George Khouri, a Nazarene journalist in what was the British mandate of Palestine, had traveled with his wife to New York in 1947 to cover the United Nations (UN) debates about the future of Palestine." (that is the first sentence of that article)
  • Even distant relatives: Abdullah Barghouti, "Barghouti is a relative of Marwan Barghouti."
  • And non-notable parents: Marwan Barghouti, "his father was a migrant worker in Lebanon."
  • Albert Einstein: His parents were Hermann Einstein, a salesman and engineer, and Pauline Koch.
  • This sort of brief descriptor is so routine, that it would be extraordinary not to include it on the page. I favor the wording along the lines suggested by User:Coretehapple. E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
None of those examples are remotely similar. Zerotalk 01:23, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Yes. Reliably sourced, and father and son together are explicitly mentioned in academic books in this context, so this connection is notable. Also per Atsme and E.M.Gregory. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:05, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Yes As the WP:RS mention his father background while talking about him so its relevant that we will include it too -- Shrike (talk) 20:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Yes SbB. I agree on the "trained instead of loyal" part as well. d.g. L3X1 (distænt write) )evidence( 12:52, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Yes as encyclopedic and relevant, However as noted above the sentence should say "trained by Nazi Germany" instead of "loyal to", –Davey2010Talk 13:52, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
  • No. Father has own article. Not relevant to his own entry. Cheers, Λuα (Operibus anteire) 04:29, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Mixed A policy constraint is that whatever is put in should be limited to what is strongly sourced...this is in essence a mini-BLP on his father. Beyond that I think that it is an editorial decision, which should probably be based on degree of relevance. Under framework at essay WP:Relevance this is info "once removed" from being directly about the topic. Under that, I would include only if it is particularly significant. This is significant enough to where I'd lean towards mentioning it. North8000 (talk) 11:24, 8 June 2017 (UTC)
  • No for much the reasons Zero0000. As he said, where details of family members are to be included, they should be brief and to the point. The Nazi Germany version goes into too much detail about the Nazi Germany connection, giving it too much weight, especially considering the father has his own article. Cjhard (talk) 04:44, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 August 2017[edit]

This article would benefit from information provided in Kai Bird's biography, The Good Spy. Two points: Bird argues that Abu Ali Iyad, not Hasan Salameh, was the leader of Back September and that Hasan Salameh was not directly involved in the Munich murders. This article reflects the Israeli/Mossad POV and does not take into account the facts presented by Bird in his thoroughly researched biography of Robert Ames. Secondly, according to Bird's multiple sources, the CIA did deny that Ali Hassan Salameh was a paid asset, but Hassan Salameh was an informant or liaison to the CIA. This is a fine, but important point. Hassan Salameh refused to take money from the CIA, but he and CIA operative Robert Ames maintained a long professional working relationship as well as a friendship. At a time when the USA gov. publicly refused to have any contact with the PLO, Ames cultivated and maintained a back channel to the PLO through Hasan Salameh. 2602:306:80E9:8E00:24AF:D17:4861:BF21 (talk) 19:36, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 23:37, 2 August 2017 (UTC)