Talk:Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

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Merge or main[edit]

I'd like to propose that some elements of Wonderland and Looking-Glass be merged into a main article to be called Alice in Wonderland. The movies would also be summarized there (see WP:Summary style).

When people speak of Alice in Wonderland they can mean either her first "Adventures" or something in the sequel Through the Looking-Glass, and it would be great to have a compendium or summary article which made it easier for readers to find what they're looking for. There are many quotations and allusions such as "believing nine impossible things before breakfast". We can't just say it's from "Alice"; we must mention a book: but which book? It's so easy to say "Alice in Wonderland" but it's actually from Looking-Glass.

Also, the best place to compare and contrast the cards and the chessmen, as well as the various queens and kings, would be a new article. --Uncle Ed (talk) 13:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC) --Uncle Ed (talk) 13:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Its an interesting idea and I am not necessarily against it, but I would like to sort out a few more details. For example I take it there would still be a Alice's Adventures in Wonderland article and what would be the definition used at the start of the new Alice in Wonderland article, as that would be pretty critical?--SabreBD (talk) 14:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Why, certainly, Sabre. I would start the new article like this:

  • The Alice in Wonderland books of Lewis Carroll include Alice's Adventures in Wonderland (written in 1865) and Through the Looking-Glass, the 1871 sequel. Many people use "Alice in Wonderland" to refer to both books together or may not be aware that there are two distinct books. Movie adaptations frequently incorporate elements from Looking-Glass into Wonderland.

I'd like your help describing the movies called "Alice in Wonderland", especially distinguishing the those parts which strictly came from our heroine's Adventures in Wonderland and her experiences in the Looking-Glass world. --Uncle Ed (talk) 14:52, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

File:Cosplay-Alice-in-Wonderland.JPG[edit]

THis image shows a cosplay inspired by Alice in Wonderland. Do you find it relevant and useful for adding it to the article? Cogiati (talk) 20:24, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

consistent usage of author's name[edit]

The articel is inconsistent in the usage of the name of the author. In section 'Symbolism', he's first referred to by the pseudonym Carrol, but later repeatedly by his actual name Dodgson. (I'd suggest using Dodgson, as he was working under that name as as mathematician.) Same issue under 'Illustrations', plus we've got an inconsistency considering the first print: was it Dodgson or Tenniel who was objecting the distribution of the first print (see: 'Publication history')? Botanischwili (talk) 12:52, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Use Image-Copperplate of Mouse's Tail?[edit]

Is this suitable to use? http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LargeImage.aspx?image=http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/d46325/d4632544x.jpg Slightnostalgia (talk) 21:34, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

"New Math"[edit]

There was a rather jarring thread to the article implying that Dodgeson was railing against developments in mathematics while writing Alice in Wonderland. I don't doubt that some literary critics might be able to get a paper or two published following this approach, but it is not appropriate for an encyclopedic source. Here are some examples indicating why this theory is anachronistic:

  • Melanie Bayley claims that that imaginary numbers were a "new and controversial" topic when Dodgson was writing. Imaginary numbers are actually ancient, and become finally widely accepted after the work of Euler and Gauss in the 1700s. By the time Dodgson studied math, around 1850, imaginary numbers had been everyday tools for mathematicians for about a century.
  • Similarly, Bayley and the Wikipedia editors seem to imply some uneasiness on Dodgson's part with modular arithmetic, which again was centuries old by the time Dodgson was writing, and was put in essentially its modern and entirely uncontroversial form in 1801.

In general, the ideas Dodgson was supposed to have been reacting against in mathematics, were all very well established before he was born in 1832. Dodgson may have had issues with the manner in which these topics were taught to students, or with the writing styles of some mathematicians as being insufficiently rigorous. But certainly neither the topics themselves, nor their internal consistency, were controversial. There were controversial issues in mathematics during Dodgson's lifetime, but they were almost entirely published at the end of his life after the 1865 publication of Alice in Wonderland. The most notable of these would have been Cantor's theorem (published in 1891) and Cantor's work on infinity more generally.

Additionally, the Wikipedia article claimed that Alice's inability to remember her multiplication tables was some sort of coded discussion of radices or number bases. This reading has no mathematical merit to it whatsoever, as you can in most cases "read" an incorrect multiplication as a multiplication in another base. For example, you get get 4*5 = 12, 4*5 = 13, 4*5 = 11 or (nearly) whatever you like by reinterpreting the base. You can also reinterpret these multiplications as multiplications in finite number rings with similar absurd-looking results. However, this reading is a tremendous reach with no textual justification. In fact, the paragraph containing the multiplication explicitly mentions that she is having difficulty remembering facts of all sorts. Her multiplication table is one thing she misremembers. She also misremembers London as the capital of Paris, and Paris as the capital of Rome. She also has trouble remembering the verse to several poems throughout the book. Given all this, the interpretation in the Wikipedia article is, at best, extremely suspect and should not be included without the support of a source explicitly mentioning that Dodgson had such things in mind when he wrote the book.2601:6:5480:15A5:4C40:D00B:FF5C:88F4 (talk) 16:36, 8 February 2015 (UTC)