Talk:Allentown, Pennsylvania

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edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Allentown, Pennsylvania:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
  • Article requests : Create and write section on City government and governance
  • Infobox : Needs better photograph
  • Split : "History of Minor League Baseball" onto its own page
  • Verify : Most sections require additional sources and citations
  • Other : Condense "Popular culture" and "Notable Residents" sections

Archiving of discussion page material[edit]

Conversations and postings dated September 2007 to November 2008 have been archived here. Alphageekpa (talk) 13:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Allentown Billy Joel.jpg[edit]

The image File:Allentown Billy Joel.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

  • That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
  • That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --09:53, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Television Stations in the greater New York City area[edit]

I can understand noting that Allentown can receive some NYC stations in the copy, but isn't including the whole "Television Stations in the greater New York City area" box in this article a tad bit of an overkill?Alphageekpa (talk) 12:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Given no support or rationalization provided in the two weeks since I posted the above, I've since removed said box. Alphageekpa (talk) 12:48, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Landmarks and popular locations[edit]

This section is valuable content, yet is quite unwieldy tacked on at the end of the article as such. I'd like to propose one or two possible ideas for the handling of this section. First, if these items warrant addition expansion, break them out onto their own page. See List of sites of interest in Philadelphia as an example. I'm thinking that this might be the way to go. Otherwise, I find it odd that items on the list are not incorporated into the body of the article. For example, both Civic Little Theatre and Yocco's can move up into Culture. Hess' can move up into Shopping. Etc. Honestly, the solution might be both. Thoughts? Alphageekpa (talk) 12:07, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


Regarding this recently added section, I am surprised that one can include it without the mention of Hess' and the downtown shopping area, and the "migration" of "downtown shopping" to the suburbs. It also should be clearly noted that largest shopping areas (Lehigh Valley Mall, Whitehall Mall) are *outside* of the city. I don't think there's harm in mentioning them, it just needs to be done within the right context. In addition, the bullet points should be folded-down/restructured into prose. Just my two cents. Alphageekpa (talk) 12:13, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I just wrote this section and posted it to the article. Needs an image (a photograph of Hess's would be PERFECT). In hindsight, I also need to (somewhere) fit in the Farmer's Market at the Allentown Fairgrounds. I think it also needs a stronger lead-in sentence to establish the importance of Hess's. Anyhow, as always, I welcome comments and edits to improve this addition. Alphageekpa (talk) 12:47, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Arbogast & Bastian[edit]

Just completed article on Arbogast & Bastian (A&B). Would welcome feedback, corrections, copyediting, etc. Also need suggestions on best place to mention A&B in Allentown article. Alphageekpa (talk) 21:32, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Peer Review for the Arbogast & Bastian now open[edit]

The Wikipedia:Peer review/Arbogast & Bastian/archive1 for the Arbogast & Bastian is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! I've listed this article for peer review because it has been significantly expanded over the past week, and feedback/comments for improvement and development would be appreciated. I realize the history of the company is relatively sparse for the majority of the company's history - a limitation due in part to A&B having been a privately-held corporation, so most material available has to do with either the founding and early history in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, or the demise of the company in the 1980s. Anyhow, thanks in advance! Alphageekpa (talk) 21:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Arbogast & Bastian[edit]

On March 10, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Arbogast & Bastian. Alphageekpa (talk) 22:19, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Arbogast & Bastian now GA[edit]

Symbol support vote.svg On April 19, Arbogast & Bastian was promoted to Good Article status. Alphageekpa (talk) 11:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

All-America City Award[edit]

According to here, Allentown was twice awarded the All-America City Award (1962 and 1974-75) by the National Civic League. Might be worthy of a mention in the article. Alphageekpa (talk) 11:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Another nickname for Allentown[edit]

Allentown is the gymnastics capital of Pennsylvania, that is where the elite gym Parkettes National Gymnastics Training Center is located. Texas is still the world's center of gymnastics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


PAWiki: this is what I removed: This is a news aggregate blog. A 2nd hand reprint of demographic information from The US Census bureau (which is already linked to). current weather isn't encyclopedic, even if the link actually worked. a blog.
I was also on the fence about removing the 2 other links to the Morning Call: current news isn't encyclopedic, the newpaper is referenced in the media section, and there an appropriate EL at The Morning Call.

ccwaters (talk) 15:26, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with trimming down this linkfarm. Please take a look at larger cities, like Philadelphia and New York City, as examples of what I believe should be followed. I agree with all of your deletions, ccwaters. Alphageekpa (talk) 18:19, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
The links certainly should not include companies or other corporate/organizational links not directly related to the city as a whole, and it's good those were removed. I thought the USAElectionPolls site included some useful, encyclopedic information from differing sources, but I do not feel strongly one way or the other necessarily. PAWiki (talk) 19:01, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Update to gangs list in Crime section[edit]

I've removed the following gangs from the paragraph in the Crimes section related to gang presence: Cash Money Boys, Gangster Disciples, NETA, Outlaws, Pagans, Hells Angels and Sureños. Each of these are not substantiated by the citation I previously provided in support of the list of gangs presented in this section. A search of the archives of the Morning Call yields not a single article mentioning Gangster Disciples, NETA, or Sureños. Cash Money Boys are mentioned with a presence in Easton only. Pagans and Hells Angels are mentioned in regards to a 1998 incident in Forks Township, Pennsylvania. Alphageekpa (talk) 12:19, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I accessed your citation, the Jan 31, 2008 article in the Morning call from my local library archives. You are using this sentence...

"Flowers said that as of 2003, the Bloods, Latin Kings, Mexican Mafia, Black Dragons, Los Solidos, 18th Street, MS-13 and others have been discovered in the region." conclude and publish that MS-13 and other gangs are in Allentown. The quote says REGION; not CITY of ALLENTOWN. Your use of a quote like this seems inconsistent with your other discussions wherein you only allow companies and things inside the city limits to be included in the WIKI Allentown article. Why then do you make an exception for gangs? Russojar (talk) 15:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I subsequently read your discussion page (Alphageek) and saw that you have decided to interpret Region as the City of Allentown. I do not think that is reasonable. The article has a later reference specifically to the City but you have chosen to ignore that. The reference is to the Region and this quote should be moved the Lehign Valley page. (talk) 10:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
I am okay with the term "region" replacing "Allentown and/or Lehigh Valley" in this context. The article in question was about gangs in "Allentown and/or Lehigh Valley" region, so it's use of "region" refers to "Allentown and/or Lehigh Valley." So it's one in the same. My logic about what to include and what not to include is not inconsistent. If a highway runs through Bethlehem, it has nothing to do with the Allentown article. If a college is located in Easton, it has nothing to do with the Allentown article. If a topic is about the "region" (specifically "Allentown and/or Lehigh Valley"), it is applicable, as Allentown is the subject of this article. Common sense, really. Alphageekpa (talk) 09:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Without further clarification, the quote should not be used to infer the presence of any gangs in Allentown. Other sources are needed that specifically identify Allentown and the gangs. I also believe it's irresponsible to continue using 2006's crime figures when we know that more recent reports show a markedly different picture. If we're going to insist on practicing journalism, then we also have the dual obligation of being not only accurate but current. Allreet (talk) 12:26, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Alpha - Using your logic, then you should update all the other cities articles, Bethlehem, Easton, Whitehall, etc to include the same gang references. I will post the text of the article when I get home. Others can comments.
Allreet - I agree. Actually, the citiation uses 2003 data and it is highly skewed. When I get time I will pull 2007 data of the FBI site ( Note that the FBI issues a warning about sites like Using 2003 data from is highly suspect.
Here is the FBI Warning:
"Each year when Crime in the United States is published, some entities use reported figures to compile rankings of cities and counties. These rough rankings provide no insight into the numerous variables that mold crime in a particular town, city, county, state, or region. Consequently, they lead to simplistic and/or incomplete analyses that often create misleading perceptions adversely affecting communities and their residents." Russojar (talk) 13:28, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The 2006 FBI UCR Data shows property crime for Allentown at 6,059 and for 2007 it was 5,333 The article is currently saying that 2006 was more than 7,000 with no direct citation. Where did the rest of the article's crime data come from? This entire section should be looked at. Russojar (talk) 18:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree that the most recent data should be used wherever possible, and verifiable. I think I speak for all editors here when I say that I welcome you to update statistics in this article, with the appropriate citations. All sections of this article warrant regular review. Some sections, including some in the crime section, may be a couple of years old. Since you appear to have taken such an interest in this particular section of the article only, Russojar, why don't you take a stab at updating and/or improving the quality of the citations? (note, this is the same recommendation that I made to you on November 1, 2008) [1] Doesn't do any good to keep complaining, if you're not going to do anything about it. Just watch your step with the whole NPOV issue, and be certain to disclose any conflict of interest you may have before doing so. Other readers may wish to look in the archives for this talk page (particularly that of late 2008), where you disclosed you are "working on a volunter [sic] committee called Allentown Ahead" [2] which somehow involved PR and the mayor of Allentown, and that you had an axe to grind with the Morning Call for their supposed "negative spin" against either the city, the mayor, his administration, or all of the above. Perhaps you just hid for six months, hoping that we'd forget the last attempt you made to whitewash this article? Alphageekpa (talk) 01:09, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Geek- Please keep the personal attacks to yourself, or at least, post them to my talk page. Please do not question my NPOV. Pleaase don't tell to to watch my step. You are not my father. Your other comments were totally uncalled for. I am disapppointed at your response. For those that do go back to the archives, be sure to see where an article about Newark, NJ was cited by as a reference for Allentown. I hardly call that an NPOV. If not for my scutiny, that would still be here. Pointing out that the data you cite is in error is not grinding an axe. Can you explain why you inflate crime statistics, cite articles about other cities, and define REGION to suit your interests? Last time I posted, it was suggested we discuss things before they are put into the article. That is what I started doing here. It has been about six months snce I have posted. I have not been hiding. I finally got the time to find the article that was used after the Newark article was removed. That was replaced with an article that is not online and only avaialbe for a fee from the Morning Call. I finally got to that article and was merely pointing out, i.e discussing, that you incorrectly cited that article. After hearing no comment, I made the appropriate change to the article to accurately reflect what was stated in the article. My posting of the FBI data was not complaining. I was giving however posted the 2003 and (wrong) 2006 data a chance to clarify. I am not looking for a fight. I am looking to present an accurate picture of crime based on facts. I phoned the FBI and talk tothe analyst for the data. They chuckled at the use of the CityRatings data. For the record, Allentown does have a crime problem and I hope to accuratly portray it based on facts..Russojar (talk) 01:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I will take a stab at it when I have time to do a proper analysis of the FBI data.Russojar (talk) 01:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Please get your facts straight, Russojar. Now you're making accusations unsubstantiated by the facts. The last time you came around, you made an attempt to whitewash this article. When pushed by other editors, you disclosed your motives and associations. Now you're attributing actions and edits to me that were not made by me. Please keep in mind that there are a number of active editors on this particular article, not to mention the fact that this article existed before I even started editing Wikipedia myself. I DO NOT "OWN" THIS ARTICLE. Would I personally use as a source? No, I would not. I don't know what you're referring to about a Newark reference. And my usage of an article that discusses gangs in the Lehigh Valley is valid. Allentown is in the Lehigh Valley, is it not? Do you think the writer of the article meant Lehigh Valley with the exclusion of Allentown? No. Hence my usage of the terms "Allentown" and "region." By default, when one uses the term "Lehigh Valley," it is INCLUSIVE of Allentown. Anyhow, I think any editor reviewing my work on Wikipedia would note that my usage of sources is extremely thorough and detailed. And my usage of Morning Call articles is completely fair game. (As I mentioned before, they're accessible for FREE through the Allentown Public Library's website if you're a cardholder.) As per my previous post, I welcome you to make corrections to the article. You create an awful ruckus, and then do nothing about it. Even now, when I welcome you to make corrections, you engage in lengthy diatribes, attacks and criticisms, and then come back with "when I have time, I'll get to it." I think enough time has been wasted. If you want to participate and make improvements to this article, you are more than welcome to do so. That is the position that I've taken with you since day one, and I stand by that. Alphageekpa (talk) 09:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
OK. Sounds good. Lets agree to move forward. The following statements are simply disagreemnts, not attacks. In that regard, I do not agree with your logic regarding that anything said about the Lehigh Valley Applies to Allentown. The Lehgh Valley is too broad for that. I also do not agree that you can infer what a writer is "thinking" You said this "Do you think the writer of the article meant Lehigh Valley with the exclusion of Allentown? " The article did not say Lehigh Valley. It said region. That could refer to alot of things. The Northeast United States is a Region as in Eastern PA. The State Police have 6 defined regions. I don't think it is fair to guess at what the writer thought. He

could have been referencing Reading. It is moot at the moment because I did change the Wiki page to reflect region and it has stuck so far. That is a good thing. Regarding the FBI UCR crime data, my hope is to ty to get 2005-2007 trends for Allentown, the US, US Metros with 100-250K population, and Northeast Metros with 100-250K population. The 100-250K is an FBI clasification and Allentown at 107K, fits that. Allentown will still show poorly relative to that but it is more accurate that CitiRatings. I will also try to remove the editorial words like "Most noteworthy" as in refering to Arson. There were only 40 Arson last years. Arson is not a problem. Regarding my "when I get to it, I do have a job and I cannot devote the time to this that others can. So, as soon as I can get to it, I will do so. Take care and thansk for feedback.Russojar (talk) 21:37, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about all the side arguments here, nor do I care to take sides, but there is one point that clearly needs to be made. A quote that identifies gang presence in the Lehigh Valley cannot be used to imply the presence of gangs in any particular part (or every part) of the Valley without specifically identifying Allentown. For one, it is possible no gangs ever set foot in Allentown. For the other, the logic is akin to "All dogs have fleas. Socrates has fleas. Therefore, Socrates is a dog." That is, "The Lehigh Valley has gangs. Allentown is in the Lehigh Valley. Therefore, Allentown has gangs." That may or may not be true, but it is not proven by this quote. Allreet (talk) 17:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Here is the full article. As I read it again, the article is not about Allentown, it is about the "Region". Further in the article a few specifics about Allentown are mentioned. My interpration of Region would be Berks, Lehigh, and Northampton Counties. Allreet, I agree with your logic.
"Copyright Morning Call Jan 31, 2008

The region's street gang problem is worse now than it was a decade ago, a seasoned Allentown police officer told a concerned neighborhood watch group Wednesday.

More than 20 members of the Old Town Neighborhood Watch listened in St. Michael's Church on Turner Street as Lt. Ron Flowers detailed the signs that indicate a potential gang presence.

Flowers said a crackdown by former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani drove many gang members to the Lehigh Valley in the 1990s. He said the problem is not just isolated to center city but is prevalent throughout the region, where up to 800 gang members have been identified.

"It's not a local phenomenon; they don't have borders," Flowers said. "These knuckleheads travel anywhere they want to go."

Members of the Old Town group, which covers Eighth Street to 12th Street between Linden and Liberty streets, viewed photos offered by Flowers showing gang symbols found in area graffiti.

The graffiti is not stylized street art, but made up of simple words, numbers, phrases or letters used by gangs to show their presence or territory.

Flowers said that as of 2003, the Bloods, Latin Kings, Mexican Mafia, Black Dragons, Los Solidos, 18th Street, MS-13 and others have been discovered in the region. The presence of the Crips, a west-coast based gang, is increasing. Flowers said the Allentown police are also working with the city school district to detect gang activity in schools.

Flowers said some gangs may control a single block or corner, and drug transactions will take place quietly until -- either because of territorial disputes or personal animosity -- violence erupts.

"More often than not, the victims of gang violence are gang members," Flowers said.

Current trouble spots in the city include the intersections of Seventh and Gordon streets and Ninth and Tilghman. There is some Latin Kings presence in the 1100 block of Turner, he said.

"When we started this [watch] group we said "This is our neighborhood and we're not going to be intimidated,"' member Anne Crothers said. "We've got to get involved even more."

Police Chief Roger MacLean, who attended the session Wednesday, said residents should report graffiti to the city's Recycling Department, which photographs all graffiti for police files and removes the paint free of charge. The "Graffiti Busters" can be reached at 610-437-8729."Russojar (talk) 21:59, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Hamilton Mall - Onesource Template[edit]

This section is based entirely on one source and greater balance, other viewpoints, are called for. The basic premise expressed is that Hamilton Mall killed the center city. That's simply not true. HM was an attempt to stave off the malling of America. It was too little too late and a Don Quixote dream, for sure, but neither the construction nor the concept of the mall can be blamed for the downtown's demise. For example, Hamilton Mall was a partnership between the city and the owners of the city's downtown businesses, yet this section indicates that the stores fell victim to a pie-in-the-sky idea of "city planners." The city government could not have done anything without the support of the city's power structure, namely the families that owned the downtown's major business: Hess's, Leh's, The Morning Call, Bohlen Gross & Moyer, etc. And no matter what, nobody could have done anything to thwart the impact of the LV Mall. Accordingly, I've placed a Onesource template on the section. Allreet (talk) 07:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Crime Section[edit]

The following is in regard to removing the reference to "86th most dangerous city"

The citation refers to CQ Press rankings. CQ Press has stated that as of 2008 they no longer use the terms "safe' or "dangerous" with regard to their rankings. Their explanation is here:
Further, the FBI, as of 2004, no longer considers crime ranking valid. "The consensus of the FBI and its advisory groups is that the Crime Index no longer served its purpose and that a more meaningful index should be developed." Please see explanation (by CQ Press) here:
CQ Press continues to provide the rankings and that is what is cited in the Allentown article. I think it is reasonable to leave the citation there but with the removal of "dangerous city" reference. I believe the wording I used for the citation is more factual and less editorial, i.e. the rankings are merely a compilation of the actual crime data as reported to the FBI in UCR and that is what we are stating. There is consensus among CQ Press and the FBI that inferring "danger" or "safety" from the rankings is editorial/opinion.
Peteycat (talk) 14:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

In Popular Culture[edit]

Most cities do not have a section similar to this, and I think Allentown should follow suit. Not only does it barely add to the article, but many of the examples are of questionable importance themselves. Does it really matter that the All-American rejects filmed parts of their video in an amusement park in the area? Maybe it could fit in the Dorney Park article itself, but not here. I think a few of these should stay - especially the Joel one (as it's the only reason many people I've met around America know of my hometown) - but could be worked in more intelligently. I propose deletion of the section; any thoughts? (talk) 17:44, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Personally I think it's a trivia section of junk and anecdotes that doesn't belong in an encyclopedic article. Billy Joel's "Allentown" should be in a section of it's own, however the rest of what is in that section needs to be deleted. Bwmoll3 (talk) 18:54, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. It had, at one point, grown so lengthy and unwieldy that it was broken out onto its own standalone page, which was nominated for deletion and subsequently deleted. Most of that page's content then made its way back into the main article. In is indeed mostly trivial in nature, and in my opinion, fair game for deletion. Alphageekpa (talk) 12:10, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Resolved the issue. Ref: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trivia sections) Bwmoll3 (talk) 13:13, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

drivers licenses[edit]

What hours are the Philly drivers license centers open? (talk) 00:07, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Never mind. I didn't mean to ask that question here. (talk) 00:11, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Photo Request[edit]

Can someone in Allentown take a good photo of the Center Square Soldier's and Sailor's Monument that can be used here on Wikipedia ? Bwmoll3 (talk) 16:37, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Contents section[edit]

I noticed the table of contents was located in the demographics section. In other articles, however, they are located at the top of the page. Could you fix that? Thank you. Plantedpotroast (talk) 20:26, 22 July 2015 (UTC) Plantedpotroast (talk) 20:26, 22 July 2015 (UTC)