Talk:American Jews

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I just cut[edit]

this sentence out from the "International affairs" section:

Large number of Jews had an interest in foreign affairs, most notably organizing labour unions, labour rights, civil rights, and feminist causes.:

because it does not seem to me that "organizing labour unions, labour rights, civil rights, and feminist causes" is a particularly "international" activity. If these activities are being done internationally then that needs to be stated and adequately referenced. Also I found the tense, "had" to be confusing. Carptrash (talk) 15:45, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

My new edit[edit]

The source Pew cited that the net Jewish population currently in the United States is 5.3 million among them (4.2 million) consider themselves Jewish by religion, While (1.2 million) are secular or cultural Jews – those who say they have no religion but who were raised Jewish or have a Jewish parent and who still consider themselves Jewish aside from religion. According to same study the American Jewish population was estimated at between 5.5 and 8 million, depending on the definition of the term. Which include also 1.6 million Americans who have at least one Jewish parent or were raised Jewish, but they do practice Christianity now, and 0.4 million Americans who have at least one Jewish parent or were raised Jewish practice other religion. Many of them still consider themselves Jewish aside from religion. So we should include Irreligion, Christianity as minority religion 1.2 million or 1.6 million is not a small numbers, and the study do include them as Jewish depending on the definition of the term.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 18:51, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Also according to The Harris Poll® in 2013 only 48% of American Jews do believe in God, and 24% of American Jews said the said they were "absolutely certain" of God's existence. And 19% of American Jews believe God does not exist, Irreligion (atheist or agnostic) are not even a small minority, Accroding to Pew study in 2013 about 62% of Net American Jews say being Jewish is mainly a matter of ancestry or culture, 15% say being Jewish is mainly a matter of religion, and 23% for both. So many atheist or agnostic Jewsih consider themselves Jewish. It should added Irreligion in religion category.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 19:07, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
First, consensus on Wikipedia is that irreligion, atheism, agnosticism, and other religious nonbeliefs don't get added to infoboxes in place of religion. So that question is out.
The real issue is whether American Jews practice Christianity. Pew doesn't address that question. It is much more nuanced: they merely say if one were to count such people as Jews, one would get a figure of X adult American Jews. Abraham Lincoln supposedly once asked a friend how many legs a dog has if you consider its tail a leg. When the friend answered five, Lincoln said, No, only four. You can consider the tail a leg but it's not a leg. A dog only has four legs. The fact is that nearly every Jewish organization in the world considers a Jew who practices Christianity a Christian, not a Jew. The two religions are considered incompatible.
I think footnote 1 in this article—which includes a link to the Pew survey and quotes its smaller figure of 5.3 million Jewish adults—is the appropriate way to deal with the mental exercise Pew takes. Adding Christianity to the infobox is not. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:29, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
If every Jewish organization in the world considers a Jew who practices Christianity a Christian, not a Jew, Then why these people who converted to Christianity as Max Born, Lise Meitner, John von Neumann, Gerty Cori, Fritz Haber, Gustav Mahler, Karl Landsteiner and Boris Pasternak and etc, classified as Jews in Wiki articles (ethnically at least). and why the Jewish Nobel laureates who converted to Christianty, their names are on the List of Jewish Nobel laureates?.
Why this selectivity?? in the case of these people there been debate that since they were born to Jewish mother (even if they conveted to Christianity) they still Jews ethnically, and as you can see all of them are under "Category:Jewish etc" in their articles, while now the 1.6 million Christians of Jewish descent (who have at least one Jewish parent or were raised Jewish) are not considered Jewish. Why? Maybe because they are not celebrities or not Nobel laureates?.
The article itself taking the ranging the numbers of the Jewish depending on the definition of the term from 6,400,00 - 7,400,000 - which include the numbers of Christians of Jewish descent.
By the way most of the article about ethnic group or nations do add irreligion, atheism, agnosticism, and other religious nonbeliefs to infoboxes as Spaniards, French people and Americans, and since only 48% of American Jews do believe in God as pools show, still it is need to be added here the irreligion.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 20:04, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
With respect to the individuals you name, I can't tell you who has argued what. You say there has been debate in the past, but on the articles' talk pages I looked at, I didn't see any evidence of it. I did notice, however, that except for Pasternak, none of their infoboxes mention their religion. If you'd like to argue about why those people are categorized as Jewish, you ought to start by reading the relevant guideline, WP:CATEGRS, in particular the section on religious categorization, WP:CAT/R. My suspicion is that since a convert has lived as both a Jew and a Christian, both categories may apply—but this isn't a discussion about how to categorize people.
You mention figures of 6.4 to 7.4 million American Jews. Yes, footnote 1 mentions that figure and cites six sources that give American Jewish population figures in that range. Which one of them, specifically, includes Jews who practice Christianity? Quotes would be appreciated.
With respect to nonreligions, I can only point you to Template talk:Infobox/Archive 11#RfC: Religion in infoboxes, where the motion "In all infoboxes in all Wikipedia articles, without exception, nonreligions should not be listed in the |Religion= parameter of the infobox." succeeded. Maybe the editors at the articles you mention above didn't get the memo. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:17, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
In the List of Jewish Nobel laureates names as Max Born, Gerty Cori, Fritz Haber and other Jewish who converted to Christianity are included to the article. And as you can see here they refuse to remove the names of Jewish who convrted to Christianity by saying - from some editors - [Jews are an ethnoreligious group - that means (in brief) that they are an ethnic group with a national religion. Becoming agnostic or atheist, or even converting to another faith, doesn't suddenly erase their ancestry and ethnic heritage and culture] and you can see also here here many editors were revert the removing of Jewish who converted to Christianity claiming [A person automatically becomes Jewish either by official convertion (religion) or by being born to a Jewish mother (ethnicity), therefore Wallach is and forever will be Jewish by birth/ethnicity, even if he's an atheist and a convert to Christianity]. And this only one example when the articles is about Nobel laureates and celebrities. In these cases even if they converted to Christianity they been counted as Jewish. And on the past in articles as Ashkenazi Jews see here, They refoused to remove the pictures of Gustav Mahler and John von Neumann and Lise Meitner who converted to Christianity and saying that they still Jews since Jews are also an ethnicity.
You you will find such as this Category:Austrian Jews and etec in all of the articles of Jewish who converted to Christianity, but you will not find Category:English Christians in the article Richard Dawkins (because he been christian), So if Jewish who convert to Christianity are not any more Jewish why we have such of these Category in their articles and why in the List of Jewish Nobel laureates editors refuse to remove the names of the Jewish who converted to Christianity from the list? why here they don't consider any more as Jews while in List of Jewish Nobel laureates consider Jewish as an ethnoreligious group - that means (in brief) that they are an ethnic group with a national religion. Becoming agnostic or atheist, or even converting to another faith, doesn't suddenly erase their ancestry and ethnic heritage and culture.
According to Pew there are 1.6 million in the United States are raised as Jewish or have at leat one Jewish parents, But they do practice Christianity now. We should add it if not on infobox, at least we can add it inside the article (it is been added Jewish who do practice Buddhism, Why not christianity then 1.6 million is not a small number).
Still I see kind of selectivity, In List of Jewish Nobel laureates they include names of Jewish convert to Christianity (and they consider them to be Jews, try to remove the names and your edit will be revert), while here Jewish who convert to Christianity they are not a Jews.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 18:39, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Here what pew cited about the numbers of Jewish in the states baised on the definition of the terming: "Alternatively, one could define Jewish more expansively, to include all Americans who have at least one Jewish parent or were raised Jewish, regardless of whether they now have another religion, such as Christianity. In that case, the survey suggests the total adult Jewish population (including all Jews by religion, Jews of no religion and people of Jewish background) would make up about 3.3% of American adults, or approximately 7.8 million people. If one were to adopt an even broader definition of Jewish identity and include all Americans who say they consider themselves Jewish for any reason – even if they do not have direct Jewish ancestry – the survey indicates the adult Jewish population would be roughly 3.8% of the overall adult population, or about 9.0 million people.". According to the same study Most people in the Jewish background category (70%) are Christians, religiously speaking--62.10.82.167 (talk) 18:54, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
If you wish to argue about the List of Jewish Nobel laureates, the place to do so is Talk:List of Jewish Nobel laureates, not here. Ditto for Ashkenazi Jews and Talk:Ashkenazi Jews.
If you have a specific suggestion about how to improvide this article, please make it. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 21:47, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
I argued about List of Jewish Nobel laureates, because you said that if Jewish convert to Christianiy it is mean he not Jewish any more, So i said that many of wikipeida articles do treat the Jewish convert to Christianiy as ethnic Jewish, Example (List of Jewish Nobel laureates and other articles, and i can give other talk pages), So why here is different case?.
Agian the numbers of the Jewish Americans in the article rangs from 5,425,000–8,300,000 (These numbers also took form pew study), Pew cited: "Alternatively, one could define Jewish more expansively, to include all Americans who have at least one Jewish parent or were raised Jewish, regardless of whether they now have another religion, such as Christianity. In that case, the survey suggests the total adult Jewish population (including all Jews by religion, Jews of no religion and people of Jewish background) would make up about 3.3% of American adults, or approximately 7.8 million people. If one were to adopt an even broader definition of Jewish identity and include all Americans who say they consider themselves Jewish for any reason – even if they do not have direct Jewish ancestry – the survey indicates the adult Jewish population would be roughly 3.8% of the overall adult population, or about 9.0 million people.". According to the same study Most people in the Jewish background category (70%) are Christians, religiously speaking..
So Pew study include Jewish background in study, and it's cited that most of Jewish background category are Christians (1.6 million), If you include them -according to the study Jewish would make up about 3.3% of American adults, or approximately 7.8 million people.
The artcile have a paragraph about Jewish Buddhist, So can i add a paragraph about the Jewish who's practice Christianity (1.6 million)?.
So, Why i can't add Christianity in infobox or the articles?. When the Pew study include them in the rang numbers.---62.10.82.167 (talk) 22:13, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
You're mixing apples and oranges. This article doesn't cite the Pew survey about Americans "of Jewish background", it cites the 5.3 million net Jewish adults and 1.3 million children "in households with a Jewish adult who are being raised Jewish or partly Jewish" for a total of 6.7 million. See footnote 1, which cites chapter 1 of the Pew survey. You're citing chapter 7, which is titled "People of Jewish Background and Jewish Affinity" (not "Jews") for a wholly unrelated figure. Read that chapter's second paragraph:
As the name suggests, people with a Jewish background were all raised Jewish or had a Jewish parent. But they have not been included among the Jewish population in this report because they all say either that they are not Jewish or that they are affiliated with a religion other than Judaism (e.g., Christianity). (emphasis in original)
So these are people who have some connection with American Jews but who are not Jews. That's clear to the authors of the Pew survey. It's clear to me. Why isn't it clear to you? You jumped ahead and pulled a fragment of a sentence from the eighth paragraph without bothering to read anything else on the page. Please do so, and stop wasting my time. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:16, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
The Jewish who convert to Buddhism, they practices Buddhism as their religions, The name that been mentioned in the artciles such as Steven Seagal etec they do practices Buddhism not Judaism anymore, even if they still indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish, and this paraprah is still in the article (i'm pretty sure that Jewish mainstream do not count Jewish Buddhist as Jewish sect), and in the same time you revert edit about Jewish who convert to Christianity but yet they still indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish, So or we consider Jewish who convert to other religions not part of this article, or we include also Jewish who practice other religions as Christianity and still indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish.
I cited the Nobel list, Since i saw most of Wikipedia articles include this one, treat Jewish as ethnic and religious group, Which include irreligious Jewish as this article do, and Jewish who convert to other religions, as this article do - The article include Irreligious Jewish and Jewish who practice other religion as Buddhism - So why when it about Jewish who practice Christianity and still indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish can't be include?. I saw many discous as i cited before count the Jewish converts as Jewish, Since they born to Jewish mother, and they article here count Jewish who convert to Buddhism as Jewish, but refuse to consider Jewish who convert to Christianity as Jewish even if they themselves as ethnically Jewish.
In the end the article deal here and treat the Jewish Americans as both ethnic and religious group. and if you want to speak about religion point view a Jewish convert to Christianity may still be categorised a Jew according to a strict interpretation of the halakhah.
It is not wikipeida job to evaluation who is a Jewish and who is not real Jewish, if we there is a specific group who practice other religion but still indefinite itselves as ethnically Jewish, It should be include. Have a nice day.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 17:17, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
So the rule here is like this, Jewish who convert to Christianity do not count as Jewish unless he is famouse Scientist or Nobel laureate, then all users will argue that the Jewish is ethnic and if you believe in Jesus as Christ does not mean you are no longer a Jew, strange selective.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 17:20, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

selectively[edit]

while you control the article and selectively claims that Jewish who convert to Christianity are not Jewish any more. other articles acutely treat Jewish as ethnic group, and they include Jewish who convert to Christianity, The editr Sposer refouse the ethnic definition, while in the same time the article do treat Jewish as ethnic and religious group (more than half of American Jewish are Irreligion). Messianic Judaism aherent's do identify themselves as Jewish, I do aware that many Jewish refuse that, But still Messianic Judaism aherent's do identify themselves as Jewish. While we have a section about Jewish Buddhist (who believe and buddah but yet still identifying as Jewish), User malik refuse to have a section about Jewish Christians who believe in Jesus but yet still identifying as Jewish. Interesting this selectively when we want to treat Jewish as treat Jewish as ethnic or religious group.7 Many Christians don't consider Mormons as Christians, Yet most of Mormons do indefinite themselves as Christians, and in their article considered as Christian religious movement, Many Muslims don't consider Ahmadiyya as Muslims, Yet most of Ahmadiyya do indefinite themselves as Muslims, and their article considered as Islamic religious movement, I'm not argue here that Messianic Judaism is a Jewish or Christian sect i'm just saying it could be added that the Jewish mainstream do consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity, But still the adherents of Messianic Judaism do indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish, and they argue that the movement is a sect of Judaism.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 14:24, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

Jews that identify with Buddha, from what I have read, identify as a way of life, not as a religion. Peace, etc. On the ethnic part, the ethnic Jew remains a controversial subject, and I am not an academic, nor am I necessarily in the majority on that. As for the Jews who converted to Christianity, I know that some Orthodox may consider somebody Jewish if they are born Jewish. But, when they say that, it means they do not have to convert again to be considered Jewish. They just need to come back and say they wish to Jewish. Personally, I think it is ridiculous to include those that converted out as a Jew, but I do not really look at that stuff on the Nobel pages. I sure would not include Bonn, or Lenny Kravitz. Just because you say you identify as a Jew, does not make you a Jew. If I said I identify as a Martian, it does not make me a Martian. But, if you follow a different religion, your DNA may be Jewish, but you are not a Jew. The one place where there is a lack of clarity would be the new made-up rules among Reform Jews permitting patrilineal descent. But even there, they would not be considered Jewish if they considered themselves Christian. Sorry, if you believe Jesus' character according to the Christian bible, or you follow an idol as a god, or you believe that Mohammed was anything more than a great man, then you are not a Jew. This does not make those faiths any less valid or important, it just means that it is incompatible to be a Jew and these others at the same time. Mr. Shabazz has been consitent too. He is editing the American Jews page, not the Max Bonn page. If you wish to police all of Wiki, go ahead, but argue on those pages for removing them. If I happened to be following that page, I would support it. If there are any converts away from Judaism in the current pictures of this article, suggest they be removed. I would support that. Sposer (talk) 16:53, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
I'll add that Buddhists don't "believe in Buddha" the way Christians believe in Christ. There are few bright lines in Judaism, but the line between Judaism and Christianity is considered one of the brightest. Look at the multitude of sources in the second paragraph of Messianic Judaism and you'll see -- as I've written before -- the overwhelming majority of the Jewish community does not accept the notion that one can be a Jew who practices Christianity. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 17:09, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
The Jewish who convert to Buddhism, they practices Buddhism as their religions, The name that been mentioned in the artciles such as Steven Seagal etec they do practices Buddhism not Judaism anymore, even if they still indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish, and this paraprah is still in the article (i'm pretty sure that Jewish mainstream do not count Jewish Buddhist as Jewish sect), and in the same time you revert edit about Jewish who convert to Christianity but yet they still indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish, So or we consider Jewish who convert to other religions not part of this article, or we include also Jewish who practice other religions as Christianity and still indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish.
I cited the Nobel list, Since i saw most of Wikipedia articles include this one, treat Jewish as ethnic and religious group, Which include irreligious Jewish as this article do, and Jewish who convert to other religions, as this article do - The article include Irreligious Jewish and Jewish who practice other religion as Buddhism - So why when it about Jewish who practice Christianity and still indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish can't be include?. I saw many discous as i cited before count the Jewish converts as Jewish, Since they born to Jewish mother, and they article here count Jewish who convert to Buddhism as Jewish, but refuse to consider Jewish who convert to Christianity as Jewish even if they themselves as ethnically Jewish.
In the end the article deal here and treat the Jewish Americans as both ethnic and religious group. and if you want to speak about religion point view a Jewish convert to Christianity may still be categorised a Jew according to a strict interpretation of the halakhah.
It is not wikipeida job to evaluation who is a Jewish and who is not real Jewish, if we there is a specific group who practice other religion but still indefinite itselves as ethnically Jewish, It should be include. Have a nice day.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 17:22, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
So the rule here is like this, Jewish who convert to Christianity do not count as Jewish unless he is famouse Scientist or Nobel laureate, then all users will argue that the Jewish is ethnic and if you believe in Jesus as Christ does not mean you are no longer a Jew, strange selective.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 17:22, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
Most of Christian churches don't consider Mormons as Christians, Yet most of Mormons do indefinite themselves as Christians, and in their article considered as Christian religious movement, Most of Muslim sects don't consider Ahmadiyya as Muslims, Yet most of Ahmadiyya do indefinite themselves as Muslims, and their article considered as Islamic religious movement, I'm not argue here that Messianic Judaism is a Jewish or Christian sect i'm just saying it could be added that the Jewish mainstream do consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Christianity, but still the adherents of Messianic Judaism do indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish, and they argue that the movement is a sect of Judaism.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 17:23, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
You keep repeating the same thing. It doesn't matter what you or I think. Wikipedia doesn't work by analogy to Mormonism, or by what the subjects of our articles think. It works by what reliable sources say. See WP:Verifiability. As I'm getting tired of writing, the overwhelming majority of reliable sources say that one cannot be a Jew who practices Christianity. I'm sorry if that upsets you, but it's not analogous to Buddhism (please read Jewish Buddhist) -- Christianity is its own unique case and the rules are what they are. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:00, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what you think, it doesn't matter what other think. we have reliable sources show that Messianic Judaism, argue that the movement is a sect of Judaism, and that they indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish.
It not ture the overwhelming majority of reliable sources say that one cannot be a Jew who practices Christianity, The sources do show that Jewish organizations reject that Messianic Judaism is a jewish sect, and stating that Messianic Judaism is a Christian sect. They don't claims that Messianic Judaism adherent's are not anymore belong or part to Jewish people - ethnically- it just said that Messianic Judaism is not a Jewish sect. which very different of what you cliams. and if you want to speak about religion point view a Jewish convert to Christianity may still be categorised a Jew according to a strict interpretation of the halakhah.
Yes Christianity is an unique case, since editros consider Jewish who convert to Christianity as Jewish when he got Nobel prize and will argue for hours that Jews who convert to Christianity still a Jews, but here editor will argue diffrently hmmm. So I'm going to delet now all the Nobel prize winner who raised Christians or convert to Christianity from the article List of Jewish Nobel laureates as Adolf von Baeyer, Fritz Haber, George de Hevesy, Max Perutz, Gerty Cori, Boris Pasternak, Max Born, Wolfgang Pauli, Otto Wallach, Karl Landsteiner and Paul Greengard and other at least 20 names who been christians but they count them as Jewish at least ethnically - in differet articles -. We will see if Christianity is an unique case, and if Jew who practices Christianity cann't be Jewish.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 18:45, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
The article you mentioned contains people who are Jews or of Jewish descend; using ancestry is common in list articles about ethnic and national groups. According to the rabbinic law, converts from Judaism are still Jews, however most Jews do not practice orthodox Judaism and reject the notion of a Jew who has another religion. (In contract to other approaches to religion such as atheism, agnosticism , deism, pantheism and so on...) I think that a paragraph the states that converts may still hold a Jewish identity and viewed as Jews by other Jews is ok, but should also mention this is highly controversial and unaccepted by most Jews. Infantom (talk) 20:31, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
"but should also mention this is highly controversial and unaccepted by most Jews."
And you know this how, exactly? What is your source?2601:84:4502:61EA:6422:2845:41D2:9BF3 (talk) 23:03, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
60% of U.S. Jews say a person cannot be Jewish if he or she believes Jesus was the messiah. Infantom (talk) 02:07, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
The article here cited: American Jews, also known as Jewish Americans,[5] are American citizens who are Jews, either by religion, ethnicity or nationality.
So Jewish here also include the one who indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish. Messianic Judaism and some other Jewish who convert to Christianiry indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 21:25, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
From the sublime to the ridiculous. Messianic Judaism IS Christianity and an attempt to convert Jews to Christianity. If you are a Messianic Jew you are a Christian. If I put a label on a bag of oranges and call them apples, they are still oranges. As for the Buddhist thing, Buddhist Jews practice the Jewish religion or are not connected. They do not practice the Buddhist religion, but follow some of its precepts towards peace, etc. They are not idol worshippers.Sposer (talk) 22:07, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
Christians are not idol worshippers!! your view of Christianity is direspected and not neutral and non-academic, and have no place here in the encyclopedia, Just a quick information according to the Encyclopedia Britannica modern scholars have located Christianity in the context of monotheistic religions. So keep it for youself.
I'm not argue if Messianic Judaism IS Christianity or not, sources show that most of the Messianic Judaism are indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish and Christian by religion (Since they converted from Judaism and raised as Jewish). It is not my work to definite Messianic Judaism as Jewish or as Christian sect, i'm not even argue about that, i'm only citing that they indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish, the article it self definite American Jewish as religion or ethnic or nationality, more than 50% of American Jewish are Irreligion and don't bielieve i God or Torah, So as there are athiest Jewish who indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish, there are also Jewish who convert to Christianity who indefinite themselves as ethnically Jewish (and christians by religion). You like that or not, For you these people are Jewish or not, change nothing.--62.10.82.167 (talk) 22:42, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
@Sposer: might well have been referring to buddhist "idols" Also, try reading your postings out loud to yourself, or anyone else around, just as a sort of proofreading exercise. You might be getting too excited. Or something. Carptrash (talk) 22:54, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
I was not referring to Christians as idol worshippers. I was referring to praying to Buddha. As for the Pew surveys, I find those numbers hard to believe -- as far as a belief in G-d -- but it is considered a reliable source, so be that as it may. However, that does not change any of the discussion. Yes, many Jews are not very observant -- if you follow Judaism according to Orthodox tenets, it is daunting. But there is no religion called "not observant" or "atheist". And it remains a simple fact that if you are a Christian, whether you call it Christianity or Messianic Jewish, it is not Judaism and you are not a Jew. Yes, any person that has accepted Jesus and then comes back to the fold would be considered a Jew, as their birth gives them that right. But ethnicity does not define your religion. There are plenty of Jews by choice -- converts who follow the religion. They are Jewish, but those that convert out are not. Period.Sposer (talk) 01:00, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Atheist Jews are still Jews under Halakhah, as are those who adhere to other faiths. Jewishness is not contingent on religious beliefs. While I certainly understand the fear some people have of identifying Jews in ethnic terms (as this has historically led to some very ugly behavior towards Jews), that fear doesn't make the ethnic component of Jewishness any less real.2601:84:4502:61EA:6422:2845:41D2:9BF3 (talk) 22:39, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Atheism is not a religion and does not belong in an Infobox. The number of atheist Jews is covered in the article. Those that convert out are not considered Jewish and so their religion should not be noted. It is very simple. No Jewish group would consider them Jewish. Some Orthodox, who are the most likely to say a person is Halachacally Jewish are even now saying that Jewish born Jews who identify as Jews and even keep Conservative laws are not Jews. There is certainly no way to include Moslems, Christians and Samaratins, or others as Jewish. The only method that could allow it is by ONLY identifying a Jew via DNA, and then, as I've said, there might be 100s of millions of Jews in the world.Sposer (talk) 00:59, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Are these Nobel laureates who converted to christianity or raised and baptised as christians as Boris Pasternak, Adolf von Baeyer, Otto Wallach, George de Hevesy, Fritz Haber, Max Perutz,Karl Landsteiner, Elfriede Jelinek, Otto Heinrich Warburg, Gerty Cori, Paul Greengard, Niels Bohr, Gustav Ludwig Hertz, Wolfgang Ernst Pauli, Max Born, Hans Bethe, Eugene Wigner, and John Harsanyi and etec. count as Jewish?, because editors argue that they still Jewish. Oh i forgot Jewish who convert to Christianity do not count as Jewish unless he is famouse Scientist or Nobel laureate, then all users will argue that the Jewish is ethnic and if you believe in Jesus as Christ does not mean you are no longer a Jew.--62.10.87.20 (talk) 02:22, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

If you wish to argue about the List of Jewish Nobel laureates, please stop posting about it here and start a discussion at Talk:List of Jewish Nobel laureates. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:19, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
Please stop! Mr. Shabazz has already told you where to argue those pages. It is not here. I agree with you and said that previously. However, if the articles say they were born to Jewish parents, that is correct, although they should then point out they converted to another religion. I have never edited on those pages and do not intend to now. If there is an infobox, it would be incorrect to say they were Jewish. Nobody here is arguing with you about that. But, that discussion belongs elsewhere as Mr. Shabazz has repeatedly stated. And, please hold your sarcasm and keep this civil.Sposer (talk) 12:03, 8 June 2016 (UTC)