Talk:Amway North America/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Alticor's Vandalism

Alticor has been removing negative information yet again. See changes by 167.23.0.90 on 09:48, 26 July 2005 in the history. The IP 167.23.0.90 traces to Alticor.

• ESKog called Alticor's recent vandalism anon blanking :-) it was an alticor ip removing our links164.116.253.65 23:59, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Here's a list of all the dates that 167.23.0.90 (the Alticor IP) vandalized this entry. This will be updated if necessary.

• 28 February 2005
• 4 March 2005
• 20 June 2005
• 14 July 2005
• 26 July 2005
• 8 September
• 21 September 2005
• 8 November 2005
• 17 November 2005
• 30 November 2005

They have also vandalized other entries, including Amway, Google bomb, Pyramid scheme, Corporate crime, and core. That list alone sure tells you something, doesn't it? (DonIncognito 03:33, 18 November 2005 (UTC))

You are making assumptions here. Yes, it is one Alticor IP, I am sure they have many. We don't know whether it was done by a corporate leader, a low level employee, visiting IBO's using an open terminal or someone who is staying at the Grand Amway Hotel (or whatever it is called now). All it tells us is that 1 - someone(s) (we don't even know if it was the same person) does not like the information provided or 2 - someone(s) does not think the information is accurate or pertinent. They have every right to make modifications to this page and you have every right to change it back if you think it is pertinent to the article. So don't go playing judge, jury and executioner here. These IP's have done nothing wrong. They are doing what is in the spirit of Wikipedia. Maybe they should left a comment to why, but that is another thread. Furthermore, listing the times an IP address has changed the page is not information that should be put in the article. Neither should speculation be included, which would be the last sentence in the Information Control. I am not going to get involved in this article dispute, but I suggest some of you develop NPOV before an NPOV tag is put on here.

First of all, I am not making any assumptions. All I have stated is that it is an Alticor IP, plain and simple. Let the user come to their own conclusions. You've made more assumptions in the above paragraph than I ever did regarding this IP address. Second, what the user at this IP has done is NOT in the "spirit of Wikipedia" as it is vandalism, pure and simple. This IP has deleted the same lines of text, repeatedly, without discussing it on the talk page, offering a different point of view, or even a simple explanation in the edit summary. Once again, that is called vandalism, and certainly doesn't fall into the category of "doing nothing wrong." In fact, it is pretty similar to the company's general modus operandi of constantly trying to suppress negative information about itself. I do agree with you on the last sentence of "Information control," but the rest of the information is completely valid. (DonIncognito 16:50, 19 November 2005 (UTC))

Don, again, your tone is extremely harsh. And you did indeed make an assumption, or rather an implication when you said "That list alone sure tells you something, doesn't it?". As this user made comment of, it really doesn't tell us anything concrete, except the deletions happened by the mentioned IP, which may or may not have even been the same person. Additionally, this user made no assumptions at all, they merely said that you really can't make any assumptions. Let's try to keep this page as civil as possible.Stones12 22:52, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

The tone is such because I get very annoyed at attempts to justify and pass off blatant vandalism as an exercise in NPOV. In fact, my other comments on this talk page pertain to the same subject matter. Regarding my comment that you quoted above, that was more of a jab at Amway/Alticor's reputation for less-than-honest dealings rather than an assumption about 167.23.0.90. Perhaps I should have clarified that. Anyhow, I'm all for civility and none of my postings can be deemed as anything but civil; however, when I see repeated, large-scale deletions of information referred to as "the spirit of Wikipedia" and "doing nothing wrong" I'm not going to mince words. I call 'em as I see 'em. --DonIncognito 04:21, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Multi-level Marketing vs. Network Marketing

I'm generally against the use of euphemisms because it very frequently results in ridiculous "euphemism treadmills." (Anyone remember George Carlin talking about "shellshock"?) Anyhow, I believe that Quixtar is most concisely described as MLM, not network marketing, although 192.160.51.70 believes that the latter is more accurate because "a person who started later can make more money than his/her sponsor." I don't believe that this factor and MLM are mutually exclusive.

Opinions? DonIncognito 23:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

• The term "multi-level" generally began when companies started paying out their salespeople based on a certain number of levels below the distributor. Typically, the distributor would receive a fixed commission for a certain number of levels deep and increases the further below those distributors. Amway's bonus structure didn't reward a distributor for "how deep you were". It's bonuses are based on differentials. The only way Quixtar plan (stair-step breakaway) could be perceived as a "multi-level" was after a distributor broke a Platinum and started receiving a 4% bonus for each "1st level". Once he reaches Emerald, he would then qualify for the Depth Bonus, which is 1% from each Platinum's business under the 1st level. I believe it was called a Pearl Bonus back then, but I'm not sure. Anyways, the term "multi-level" somehow stuck and now all companies with a similar structure are basically considered MLM. When Amway introduced FAA points and Quixtar (just a few years ago) introduced GETFAA points where a distributor can get paid based on their downline's pin level, not on just how wide or how deep they are, it changed the way the business was built. Most other businesses use different bonus structures as well. But since Quixtar will still be considered to be Amway from many, the perception will mostly be MLM. One of the most modern businesses today with a "multi-level" structure that I know of is Bo Short's Passport, where a certain percentage is paid out for the first 2 levels and then increases on the third and it stops there (If I'm mistaken about that, please let me know). So, in my opinion, I don't believe Quixtar "is most concisely DESCRIBED as MLM", but rather, is most PERCEIVED as MLM. Today, MLM is the term generally used by critics of the industry, and Network Marketing is the term generally used by proponents of the industry. --Illusion408 05:21, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

• Multi-Level Marketting, imo. "Network" Marketing or "Mutli-level" - I believe its just a euphemism. Call a spade a garden tool.

At any rate, Bo Short's "Passport" is no more, and, Quixtar *IS* Amway in North America.Gallwapa 22:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

• No more? That's interesting. Would anyone knowledgeable enough like to share with me what happened to Passport? But anyways, like I said, it's all perspective. Call it MLM or Network Marketing, essentially it doesn't matter. Amway or Quixtar . . it's all perspective. --Illusion408 02:49, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, Bo Short and Ty Tribble started passport saying "Hey look, we're better than Amway/Quixtar cuz we have no payment for tools, no pin levels, just straight sales and you decide your fate!" ...then they went and quit Passport and joined Oasis Life Sciences, another MLM, that costs something like $1200 for the 'Ultimate goober starter pack' of tools and demos... you can read about it in the archives of www.webraw.com/quixtar - try google searching for Oasis in that domainGallwapa 18:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to use the term "Multi-level Marketting".

quixtar has removed personal volume

hello, i work for quixtar, although i do not know what goes on in the higher levels, i thought that i should point out that quixtar does not accept people to declare personal use on items anymore because of peopole abusing the system.

external links

I've reverted back to the shorter-link-section version. I don't want to get into an edit war over this, so tha'll be my only revert of this type here. If you feel particularly strongly about keeping J. Random anti-Quixtar 'blog in there, please explain why — I'm at a loss as to why these links are necessary or, indeed, desirable. --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 18:33, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Provide ample resources is all. QuixtarBlog (webraw.com/quixtar) is a great resource, but it doesn't necessarily answer all the questions, though it is a good source for links (and the forums are amazing)

However, by removing Amquix.info (despite the design, which often turns people off) and the others, there isn't a decent two sidedness. Merchants is a book people have to sign up for. Dateline could be viewed as "biased media" or "only for TV" - Quixtar's systems rely on anecdotal evidence "The guy I'm working with is PROOF that this works!" to prove their points to prospects. People seeking information should also know WHY claims like "Quixtar is a cult" exist -- BWW SOT blog does a great job at that. Some people need resources to REAL stories, of people who tried it, and the more information you can get, the more informed a decision you can make.

Add in the Quixtarleader blogs if you want, but they don't have REAL information. With Quixtar poisoning results like MSN Search, blogs with great info are washed out and drowned out by new domains like "Quixtarxs.com"

Revertting the links...Fact of the matter is, several great sources of information dont show up within the first three pages of search, and how many times do you rely on a user searching past the 3rd page to find something? They usually enter a new query.

Match the links 1 for 1, if you feel its getting biased, with blogs such as beyondquixtar.blogspot.com or blindedbyscion.blogspot.com Gallwapa 16:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not interested in matching the links 1-1 or attempting to achieve balance; I've stated publicly on Wikipedia in the past that I feel the journalistic concept of "balance" is dubious at best and ethically bankrupt at worst. And I certainly don't want to add cheerleading 'blogs – if I had my druthers, we wouldn't be including 'blogs at all. However, 'blogs can (in isolated cases) prove to be good resources.

What I am concerned about is unnecessary or dubious links. We don't want the links section to get too large, and we certainly don't want links that readers cannot trust sitting down there. A number of anons have been adding blatantly scummy links to this article (you'll see in the history I've reverted the attempts of two such users), and I figure it's only fair if we remove the blatantly, dubiously anti-Quixtar links as well. What is or is not "dubious", I guess you can tell better than I – I only started watching this article because I came across some vandalism while RC patrolling. But please, keep in mind that a) "Balance" is an idiotic concept, b) we don't want too many links, and c) we don't want untrustworthy links, with "untrustworthy" defined however you feel is best.

By the way, the standard way of conversing on talkpages is to put colons (:) in front of each paragraph, with one colon being second-level, two being third-level, and so on, like threading on forae or USENET. I've taken the liberty of modifying your reply to look like that; I hope you don't mind. It's then a good idea to sign your name at the end of a reply with four tildes (~~~~), which automatically includes your username and the date. --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 21:39, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Quixtar.com is a dubious link. The link section isn't entirely long, and it provides a good number of resources to select from. With regard to the vandals: They'll never win, they can try, but they'll never win. Thousands of people hear the word Quixtar a year, and thousands more in the coming years, and having resources at hand to make an educated decision should be up to them, not who can best spam a search engine. Gallwapa 23:00, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

ThisBizNow.com is rediculous. Keep that trash off the external links. Gallwapa 16:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

I think we can all agree on that! --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 16:26, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Please explain why thisbiznow.com is ridiculous. It is a verified site that gives facts and figures about Quixtar. As opposed to a blog site which gives opinion or point of view. My understanding is that Wikipedia was supposed to be a NPOV (neutral point of view, not negative point of view) site. So something with an obvious negative opinion is allowed as a reputable link, but business and financial statistics and testimonials from the partner stores that work with Quixtar is somehow a trash link that is 'rediculous'. There is obviously a lot of strong feelings about this topic, but let's keep it as informational as possible.

• Then let's discuss the content of the links here first and come to a new consensus. The existing consensus among registered users is that thisbiznow.com is not a reputable site, and I agree with that. It is possible (even probable) that quixtarsucks.com is also POV, and we can investigate that. But please, until that decision is reached, stop spamming the link onto the page in contravention of consensus. ESkog | ^Talk 20:14, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

• Well then let's get rid of Quixtar Wiki! That page is useless! Quixtar already has a Wikipedia page, and what is Eric trying to do, besides have control of his own, where he can lock out posts he doesn't like. The page is practically empty!

• Actually QuixtarWiki has a ton of articles, which contain far more information than is available here on Wikipedia, which is not necessarily the place for content-specific terms. Example: Why define "ruby" on wikipedia? To define it in Quixtar terms makes more sense. Link should stay. Gallwapa 23:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I removed esource-news.com because it is owned an opperated by an IBO (Margaret S. Ross) who works for Quixtar leaders to specifically improve search engine placement. The Yahoo link gave a 404. Mark Glaser is not a critic, he's a reporter. Created an "In The New" heading for news reports. The Mule 13:53, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

• the mule, what about the FTC ruling on Amway? Since it is mentioned here the relationship between Amway and Quixtar, thought that the FTC ruling link would help inform others what happened. it's a fair, and informative, and gives clearification on what the FTC's ruling on the Amway business as a whole. other question, do any of you have an MBA? i know some students have done case studies on Amway, and they had alot of good information and facts to share. also, was wondering, would websites run by an IBO be considered unreliable source?

and i removed quixtar blog - one man's perception. reason: it seems the voting below explains it. please correct me if i was out of line. thanks! ^.^ Sb7 04:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

A Breakdown of the External Links

Let's look at the links that are there now (and also thisbiznow.com) and try to establish a consensus here as to which should stay to best keep NPOV up. ESkog | ^Talk 21:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

• It is worth noting that Stones12 is a new user whose only 5 edits (as of this note) are to this Talk page. His/her opinion is still, of course, valid and worth listening to. ESkog | ^Talk 19:37, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • You are quite right. I only registered as a user when I started engaging in discussion with this group. I never saw the need before and thought it would be proper when discussing to have a user name instead of merely an IP. Especially considering my IP will change somewhat frequently. However, I have been using Wikipedia as a whole frequently and editing occassionally for quite some time.Stones12 06:21, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

www.quixtar.com

• Maybe biased, but it's the site of the company. Easy keep. ESkog | ^Talk 21:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Official websites should always be included in these sorts of things. Unless we're talking about, say, the GNAA, it doesn't usually require any more than the note "official website". --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 00:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Agreed. Including the site that is at the center of the Wikipedia entry seems essential - The Mule 01:33, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Obvious.Stones12 19:38, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to INCLUDE this link.

www.amquix.info

• Seems a little anti-Quixtar, but is a collection of a lot of verifiable and useful data. I'd say keep. ESkog | ^Talk 21:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Very anti-Quixtar. However, looking through it, it seems reasonably useful. I am concerned about its reliability – I removed it from the article without knowing a thing about it, because it wouldn't load! If the site looks like being down a lot, we shouldn't keep it – Wikipedia doesn't need any more dead links.
    • The most comprehensive source of Quixtar and Amway information, period. It should be kept. Yes, the site is very critical of Quixtar but discerning visitors can decide what is truth and what is personal rant. The site was down temporarily as it moved to a new host. - The Mule 01:36, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Mule - If this is such an informational site, then you need to add Kiyosaki back as a supporter, because he is quite visibly documented as so on this site. As for the site itself, it is certainly a very negative viewpoint but I don't have the time to go through this voluminous site in great detail to make a statement to its veracity.Stones12 05:24, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Explain why Kiyosaki should be added back as a supporter? Provide a link where Kiyosaki has publicly endorsed, supported or even commented about his opinion of Quixtar. - The Mule 20:26, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
        • I am merely relying on your claim of this being a very conprehensive source of information. On this site, it is mentioned that there is a close tie between Quixtar and Kiyosaki. If this site is factual and mentions Kiyosaki as a supporter, then that should be sufficient for keeping him as a supporter in the write up. If this claim is false then it calls to question whether this site is responsible information. Personally, I really don't care whether he is included or not, but we can't claim a source as reliable some of the time.Stones12 20:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to INCLUDE this link.

www.quixtarfacts.com

• Pro-Quixtar (published by them), probably a valuable source of press releases and information on this side of the MLM debate. Keep. ESkog | ^Talk 21:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Not a good resource. "$xfacts.com", where $x is some organisation under fire, are invariably untrustworthy. This even applies in cases where a government is publishing the information! What's there now looks pretty good: Quixtar's "Official Facts" site, sort of thing. --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 00:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Agreed, it's not a great resource but it does give Quixtar's official position on several important issues. Should be kept. - The Mule 01:38, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Not a good resource, but as others have said, if thats what Quixtar wants to say, thats what they sayGallwapa 22:43, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to INCLUDE this link.

Quixtar Blog

• Seems severely anti-Quixtar and doesn't really add much in verifiable information - just someone ranting. Remove it. ESkog | ^Talk 21:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Worl, I wouldn't call this one "ranting" – it seems sedate and reasonable, altough, I'll admit, not as useful as I'd first imagined. --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 00:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
    • I'm a bit biased about this link since it's my blog but I don't think that should preclude me from adding comments. Remember that the true value of any blog lies in two realms - the quality of the frequent updates and the archives. If you search the archives you'll find a wealth of information including several stories that broke on my blog (the Blakey Report, Quixtar's Google Bombing, the Arbitration tapes, etc.). Also, great effort is made to show every perspective as illustrated in the Backbone project, the March of Perceptions and more. I'll end my lobby now but I hope you'll carefully consider its inclusion. - The Mule 01:46, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Easy Keep, in my opinion, due to the fact that it houses FORUMS for, against, and NEUTRAL to Quixtar. Allowing communication between all sides is a great resource. In addition, this blog has high quality entries. Gallwapa 22:36, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
        • It is probably the best put together blog on this list and does have positive, negative and neutral points of view. However, it is mostly points of view which is not the purpose of Wikipedia. I vote to get rid of it. Sorry Mule. Kudos on the site though.Stones12 05:44, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
          • i do agree that it was informative, and i did read many discussions and such on there. very interesting discussions. but it is a blog. vote to take it off as well.Sb7 04:36, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. No consensus was reached but this link has remained in the article.

MSNBC story

• News coverage is useful. Keep. ESkog | ^Talk 21:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Hell, yeah! --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 00:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Keep it. MSNBC (originally run on Dateline NBC) is as good a source as any in MSM - The Mule 01:47, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Agreed. The story was skewed negative, but that was partially due to Quixtar not coming on the show. Should be kept. Stones12

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to INCLUDE this link.

Quixtar Response

• It seems fair to give them the same space to respond to what they feel is a biased story, even though it seems filled with emotional language and very light on facts. Weak keep. ESkog | ^Talk 21:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Yes. --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 00:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Agreed - The Mule 02:06, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
      • This site is fubar for the information it provides, but it seems necessary since they "claim" to have been precluded from the Dateline NBC special. If they REALLY want this information to be their OFFICIAL response to the Quixtar SCAM allegations, so be it. Gallwapa 22:38, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to INCLUDE this link.

Quixtar Sucks

• I don't really care for this one either. This guy goes around and tries to make IBOs look like fools. Entertaining, but not encyclopedic. ESkog | ^Talk 21:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Whaddya mean, "look like"? =P. But, yes. --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 00:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
    • I like the blog but can see it being removed from the Wikipedia entry. - The Mule 02:07, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Get rid of it. Stones12 06:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to NOT include this link.

Merchants of Deception

• Free online e-book, anti-Quixtar but from the bit I've read it seems fact-driven and reasonable. Weak keep. ESkog | ^Talk 21:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Okay (I'm not about to read it at the moment). --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 00:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Keep it. It's a guy's experience with Quixtar. The same guy who was featured in the Dateline (MSNBC) show. - The Mule 02:10, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Dump it. Lots of allegations, but lacks any hard facts. Everything is uncorroborated with the note that it will be included in the book. If someone wrote an e-book titled "Merchants of Prosperity" about how Quixtar made their dreams come true, it would be immediately panned by everyone here as one sided and trumped up. Stones12 19:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
        • Keep it - Anyone with any experience in this business knows that the events and stories contained within have likely happened to them. It explains the process of documenting the fraud that was being committed, and gives actual income claims of an Emerald, first hand.Gallwapa 22:39, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
        • After further review, it gives nothing of the sort, Gallwapa. No hard data, mostly empty claims and only the ability to download a book. It would be ridiculous to put a link to a site that is an advertisement for an e-book.Stones12 05:57, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

• It's not an advertisement for an e-book - the book is free - it's just a different mechanism for delivering the information than a standard web page. The claims seem "empty" to you because you didn't actually look at the book. ESkog | ^Talk 16:23, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Again, I ask you, if a pro-Quixtar free book was offered by someone who had achieved great success through Quixtar, would you include it? Including this site, gives justification to include web sites like IBO Facts or Distributor websites and I don't think that is the best solution.Stones12 18:11, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

• There is no pro-Quixtar free book, becuase "The Systems" sell them to IBO's, further raping money from the IBO's caught in the Motivational Systems. FIND me a free resource that we can link to and I'll be GLAD to vote to include it. Gallwapa 20:02, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

• Gallwapa phrases his statement more adversarially than I would, but I agree with the basic point. If there is a comparable free nonfiction work which concludes in favor of Quixtar, by all means list it here and I imagine it will end well. ESkog | ^Talk 20:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

• Then what about excerpts from a published pro-Quixtar book? And what about the IBOfacts website? Essentially, that is the stance of people that have succeeded with this model in a free format. I see it as the other side of the same coin. If one is included, so should the other. I am not trying to be difficult here, yet it is important to have some standards of acceptance.Stones12 21:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

• Stones, the problem is you can't prove someone has succeeded. Most of the proclaimed "successes" in the Quixtar business are people who made it to the qualification one time and no longer qualify. The thing is, they are still touted as "successes". They then reap large ammounts of money from the secret tool business, and their quixtar businesses actually show LOSSES after expenses. How can LOSSES in QUIXTAR be attributed to success? Show me a diamond who will show you their financial statement, and I would consider changing my stance. The fact of the matter is, QUIXTAR wont even tell us how many IBO's they have, or how many diamonds they have. Gallwapa 00:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
• Gallwapa, interesting argument that does not address the point. Let's address the financial statement first. Why should a diamond show you his financial statement? He owns a private business, not a publicly traded business. The neighborhood Italian restaurant owner does not share his financial statement with just anybody. He has a right to privacy as much as everyone else.

• As for the tools, I hardly see how anyone could say it is a secret that people make money from the sales of tools and motivational materials. If someone can't figure that out, then they are not very bright. Anytime something is sold, there is a profit or the salesman will die out.
• You claim that high level distributors experience losses in Quixtar and make money from the tools. If you include money spent towards tools, functions or accomodations and meals at functions, that should really go towards the money they make on the tools business. Simple Accounting 101. They are separate businesses and entities and the expenses should be separated, too. To run a Quixtar business, you must pay the fee to start up, which as far as I can tell is somewhere around $60 a year, plus any sample products or product brochures. If they can't cover those expenses, then the person is not very business savvy and should rethink their decision.
• As far as distributors that have not reached the level where they share in the profits from the tools go, they have an option to buy tools or attend functions. This is a choice and is included in the BSMA (I think that is what it is called) agreement. Nothing should be forced upon a person and if it is, the one being forced needs to take action.
• The problem I see with you, Gallwapa, is that you take negative as Gospel and anything not negative must be a fabrication because everyone is out to get you. The simple fact is that Quixtar is bound by laws and restrictions to tell business facts when they make a public site or statement. Otherwise they would be breaking the law and the FTC would be making them change whatever the claims are. These are laws that a blogger is not subjected to, which is the primary reason that blogs should not be listed as sites. They can post whatever they want as long as it is not slanderous or breaking of any trademark, without fear of legal repercussions. It does not matter whether it is truth, fiction or a mixture of both.Stones12 02:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

• Stones, the fact of the matter is [Quixtar apparently doesn't care about the FTC] or laws or rules. 70% rule changed to include the very thing that defines MLM? Its not that I don't like anything "not negative", I don't like blatent and obvious lies. You think laws apply in politics? Have do you not follow the news? How can you compete with a corporation that has [the President of the United States] on their side? Merchants explains several links between that political party and the corporation. It is a valuable resource and should be included.Gallwapa 22:12, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
• Gallwapa, after mentioning that blogs are not the most reliable resources, you turn around and cite 2 different blogs to try to make your point. Not only that but the President comment is from a letter of thanks for the donations made for Hurricane Katrina. I would think that not doing so would be a bad show on the side of the president. Once I have finished reading this long and very dry e-book, I will respond to the 'links' that are contained within this un-published material.Stones12 22:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• I never said blogs were unreliable for information. Its content, not the format, that matters. Follow the links in the blog, and you get original sources and can read the full articles yourself. Like cliffnotes? read a blog where someone cuts to the meat. Gallwapa 07:17, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

• No, I said blogs were unreliable and not subject to anything except one individuals opinion. If you want to link to something useful, link to the actual information, not to one persons blog and their 'take' on the information. Like you said, it is content that matters. Content is the information, the format would be the blog. The meat is the original source, not some op-ed piece. In the future link to the 'content', not the 'format'. Got it?Stones12 04:26, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

• Whatever - Still a valuable resource and should be kept.Gallwapa 19:44, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

• This is all good and well but I think the conversation has strayed from the point - should MOD be included as an external link. Yes, it should. It's a valuable, free resource. - The Mule 14:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to INCLUDE this link.

MLMlaw blog

• I'm not a fan of blogs in general (can you tell?) but this one seems solid. Legal information presented in a professional way. Keep. ESkog | ^Talk 21:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Hrm, I'm not sure. --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 00:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
    • I'm ambivalent on this one. I see its value but can see why it might be pulled from the entry as it's broader in scope than just Quixtar. - The Mule 02:12, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Not a bad blog. I don't like blogs being included, but at least this one has some supporting info on it.Stones12 06:00, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to INCLUDE this link.

ThisBizNow

• Critics bash Quixtar/Alticor for supposedly deleting negative websites from the Wikipedia page, but now it is CRITICS who are deleting pages that speak Positive about Quixtar! This is more than hypocritical, its CRIMINAL! This is Exactly why intelligent individuals do NOT rely on the internet to make business decisions, and No one should waste their time expecting to learn anything of value on these Negative or so-called "Neutral" websites.
  • Well how dare we try to be neutral. Please don't waste your time vandalizing the page. ESkog | ^Talk 15:22, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

• This is a site designed to sell the Quixtar "opportunity" to the masses. It is not long on facts or information - just three success stories. It doesn't belong here. ESkog | ^Talk 21:47, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
  • It's a blatant advertisement dressed up to look like a facts & figures information. If we can't kill these things with fire, we can at least restrain ourselves from including them in lists of recommended online reading. --fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 00:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Agreed - The Mule 02:13, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Disagree. This should be kept. While some of the site is weak, I find it to be rather informative. The point of Wikipedia is to provide an electronic encyclopedia with as much neutrality as possible. Business information, such as sales numbers and rankings, are neutral whether they are reflect a rise or fall in volume or sales. This site includes the
        • People Are Talking section which has quotes from business leaders like the CEO of Easter Seals, Mayor of London, Ontario, Director of the Red Cross, Presidents and CEO's of Barnes & Nobles and other affiliates and excerpts from Magazines and other News Media. (If a blog is allowed by anyone not a business leader, then statements from business leaders should be allowed, too)
        • The By The Numbers section lists company statistics and earnings by IBO's (as well as the average earnings). Strictly 'Facts and Figures' here
        • Making A Difference includes charitable works done by the company and IBO's (which is a bit of cheerleading).
        • And the About section gives a simple breakdown of the business model employed and a small write up of the exclusive products offered.Stones12 19:22, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
    • For something that should be 'killed with fire', there are no pertinent reasons why this site should not be included. ESkog claims there is only 3 success stories. There is certainly a lot more information than that. fuddlemark says it is blatant advertisement dressed to look like facts and figures. Please give examples of what is an advertisement dressed up like facts and figures.Stones12 22:26, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

• Stones, profiles of success link does list 3, crappy "success stories"...and the only good info on the whole site is the statement of how many of each pinlevel there is, however they dont list total IBO to derive a %...its crap.Gallwapa 07:21, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

• Interesting logic, Gallwapa. Because the site does not give you the one piece of information you want, then the whole site must be crap. Your browser must not be working correctly, because as I noted earlier, there is a whole lot more information on this site. The success stories section is not big, but if it were bigger, you would complain that it was a blatant advertisement and should not be included. Since there are only three, you claim that they are crappy and the site should not be included. Or maybe it is because 2 of the 'success stories' use their profits to help the poor and needy in other countries and that bothers you for some reason. Also, in the By-The-Numbers/IBOs section there is a % of pin levels from 2004. Obviously, you did not really look at the site, but merely browsed it in passing. If you are going to make a decision on something, I suggest you look at it thoroughly next time.Stones12 04:12, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

• No, and I HAVE seen the page. I've even blogged about it. The fact is, the info there is incomplete and misleading. Gallwapa 19:44, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

• Please cite information to support your claims. What is incomplete and misleading?Stones12 22:00, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

• Here we go

• Misleading

• Often, a new IBO also will choose to attend optional and voluntary training sessions or purchase professional development materials provided by that organization - all covered by a money-back guarantee.

• Why: IBO's are pressured into "The System" from the very beginning. The Systems are joined at the hip, as was mentioned on "Directly Speaking" by DeVos himself. In addition, the money-back guarantee is misleading. The BSMAA says they must be refunded at a "reasonable, negotiated rate" -- What that means? My sponsor offered $1 for every $7 CD I had purchased, even those that were UNOPENED and UNUSED in their shrink wrap. My only recourse would have been going to arbitration, which is just about the most rigged system in existance and has even been deemd unconsionable and unenforceable in recent months.

• This is what I am talking about. Finally some discussion other than 'kill with fire' comments. Let's address this. Money back guarantee. There certainly is one, as you plainly stated when your upline offered to buy back tools from you. Now, the word reasonable is certainly in question there and it sounds like you were dealing with some less than fair individuals. I believe there is also a time limit on buying back tools that is something like 60 days. Regardless, you said the only way to get more money back was through arbitration. This fact plainly shows that Quixtar and the MO's are not 'joined at the hips' as you say. If they were truly joined, then no arbitration would be needed. The simple fact is you bought the tools from WWDB, not from Quixtar. Quixtar can help you get some of the money back through arbitration if WWDB does not follow the terms of the tool buy back agreement. Quixtar does not own this, but tries to regulate the MO's to follow protocol. As far as arbitration as a whole, it is used in a multitude of industries, and as it stands it is the best system available. If you have a problem with it, come up with a better system and propose it. As far as this 'Why', it is more of a disagreement with the MO you were involved in, not Quixtar itself. Plus, what is printed in thisbiznow.com is factual, it seems that the MO you were involved with just didn't want to follow the rules.

• Unlike most other companies,Quixtar's sales are not the result of advertising.

• Why: How about the half-a-page spread in...what was it, the USA Today? awhile back touting Quixtar as a leader in Icommerce and to come to Quixtar.com for financial freedom.

• Yes, I saw that ad in USA Today. It was put out by the Direct Selling Association. Did you see the ad yourself, or are you merely reiterating what all the bloggers have to say. The ad prmoted Quixtar as an 'opportuniy'. It did not highlight any products and I seriously doubt that it caused any sales. It could certainly be argued that the ad was intended to increase sales. Yet, in order to buy something, a person must have an IBO to buy it through and not knowing what they could even buy kind of dismisses your argument.

• How about their "downtalking" of "negative" information?ome people use the web to express views about companies, opportunities, products, or individuals. "Some sites are factual, others share personal opinions or experiences, and others spread misperceptions or mischaracterizations." While this may be a valid point, the fact of the matter is it is over shadowed by the fact that Quixtar ACTIVELY tries to control information relating to negatiev information. If they've got nothing to hide, why the hell do they care if theres 100 people online who blog negative? If it wasnt true, they wouldnt have anything to worry about, right? Because there'd be hundreds of legitimate positive or neutral sites...oh wait...funny how the only positive sites are quixtar employees or false blogs. W-T-F?

• Like you said, the statement is true. What you read into it is your own perception. As far as the allegations of information control, the only 'evidence' I have seen is on blogs and a statement that Greg Duncan said that people were doing this. Now, since I did not hear this comment first hand, I do not know what he said. Did he say Quixtar was doing this or WWDB? Also, look at the large company web sites as a whole. There are usually 5-6 negative websites for every positive one. This is not something unique to Quixtar. It is an unfortunate fact that people do not go out of their way to do something positive. Mostly, it is only negative that people will go out of their way to post. Anyway, your disagreement is based on heresay and what is stated on the website, you actually agree with. Point refuted.

• Since 1999, IBOs powered by Quixtar have earned more than $1.7 billion in bonuses and other incentives by generating sales of more than $5.2 billion at www.quixtar.com, and

• Why: It doesnt tell you how many IBOs there are (were) or that quit. OR how much of that 5.2 billion was the result of the PREVIOUSLY REQUIRED starter kit that was $75. Greg Duncan stated about 50% of the IBOs quit every year since the 1970s. Figure 350,000 IBOs, 50% quit, 50% join, every year. thats 175,000 x $75...How much of that revenue was generated back? Its misleading, or incomplete information. period. the list goes on and on. Gallwapa 23:37, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

• It doesn't need to tell you how many IBO's there were. It tells you how much IBO's have made and how much in sales were done. These are figures that have been recorded and verified. I highly doubt D&B would give such a high rating if the numbers were incorrect. Plus, and I may be incorrect here, but the starter kit was replaced when Quixtar launched, which makes your argument moot. Now, there is an optional bundle that you can purchase when you register, which is fully refundable if you opt to return it.

• So, in conclusion, you argue that the tool buy back system is flawed. Perhaps it is, but you don't buy your tools from Quixtar and they have set up an arbitration procedure to help get the money back. You argue that Quixtar does advertise because of one ad placed in USA Today promoting an opportunity, not products. I can understand your argument, but the ad was not to promote the products, but the opportunity. You agree that the statement about websites in general is true, but have personal issues with alleged activities. Regardless of your personal feelings here, no incorrect information is listed. And you have issues with the amount of income generated through Quixtar because it does not give you a fact that you want. The numbers are solid and there are ways to figure out what you want with the public information, if you have any math skills. Are you so daft that you can't figure it out on your own? I'll give you a week and if you can't figure it out, I will give you a hint. If you can do the math, maybe you will finally have an answer.Stones12 13:45, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

• Okay Stones, I give - how many total IBOs in FY 2004? How many qualified diamonds in FY 2004? Gallwapa 19:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

• Man, Gallwapa. Did you even try to figure it out? You gave up within 6 hours and you had all the information in front of you on this website. And all you can do is complain about how little information you have. Sometimes, you need to think a little. Since, you are a little logic challenged, I will make this easy to understand. IBO's made $345,000,000 in fiscal 2004. The average active IBO made $115 a month. Take the $345M and divide it by $115/mth. Now you need to translate that into yearly income, so take the answer and divide by 12mths/yr. That answer will yield you the number of 'active' IBO's, which at that time was somewhere in the neighborhood of 250,000. 66% of IBO's are 'active', so take the 250,000 and multiply by 1.5 to get what would be 100% of the IBO's. The answer is roughly 375,000. Multiply by the % given for Diamonds and you wind up with 66 in North America through Quixtar that qualified fiscal 2004. Now, from what I understand, there are also International Diamonds in N America that qualify by having legs in other countries and are not included in this number, but that is another thread. It is really not that hard if you use your brain, but I guess some people expect everything to be given to them as a hand out, instead of working for it and earning it. Lastly, while Greg Duncan may be a Diamond and above, as far as numbers go, I would stick to the information put out by the corporation. It will be much more accurate. Happy Thanksgiving.Stones12 15:30, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

• Funny, roughly 375,000. More than 380,300 Independent Business Owners received a bonus in FY 04 according to ThisBizNow. Thats not including "IBO's" who registered and did NOT receive a bonus check. So which is it? Because $375,000 is a find and dandy number...but Quixtar's own numbers contradict themselves. I hope you're starting to see my point about the validity of any of this information. Gallwapa 00:06, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

• While the extra 5,300 is around 1.3% error, which I would consider reasonable for a rough calculation, more information would be needed to validate the total number of IBO's. I concede that this would need more explanation to help understand from where it was derived.Stones12 03:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

• Well, either way I've submitted two inquiries to the corporation and have received no response to the numbers, but to claim that "the numbers are there" would just be silly :). This is a battle that cannot be won without more decisive facts to plug into the formula.Gallwapa 23:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

• it has alot more information now. not just 3 stories. would video documentation and praise from coporate partners are fair information to share? it's a good business information to know. i would vote for it to be included. =) Sb7 04:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
• please check the website again, it has alot more information now. also, what are the voting rules? would there need to be just a majority vote to keep it? 51% vs 49%? 3 to 2 voting? would it be fair to say keep the site until this is clearified?Sb7 22:42, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

• We held an informal straw poll a while back, and pretty much agreed that stuff like ThisBizNow should be destroyed utterly or, alternatively, not featured on Wikipedia. It's misleading to think of it as a "vote", but many Wikipedians have a regrettable tendency to fall back on that word in spite of the fact that Wikipedia is not a democracy. We should always strive to limit the number of external links in an article; if the link doesn't benefit the article (as distinct from benefitting the link or the subject of the article), it shouldn't be there. fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 23:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
  • i learned something new, thank you, that link on "it's not a democracy" at least helps me understand a little more on how things are written up. so overall, it is up to the readers to decide on what they feel is significant enought to share in the article. hence, even with all the edits, it is not a finished product, hence, wikipedia is not the most reliable source. it does a good job in sharing some views, however, due to the fact that most edition are done by those we are not happy with Quixtar, it can't be helped that this site will be skewed always toward the negative side, even tho we are striving for a NPOV article.Sb7 04:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
  • well, what can i do. i continue to feel that ThisBizNow is a fair site. i do sincerely request that it can stay. one reason is, the majority of the links in the external links section are the critics. it would be fair to add a supporting site. if documented books like merchants of deception, michigan reporter article, and Datelines are linked, then supporting statements from credible partner companies do have a place here, since these B&N and other companies have been interviewed as well, which can be equivalent to a michigan reporter article. i hope you can see what i mean, but i understand and will leave it up to you to leave it or not.Sb7 04:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
  • last 2 questions to mr. fuddlemark, mr. Gallwapa, and mr. ESkog: 1) in your opinion, what changes would there need to be made for the site, ThisBizNow.com, to be able to be included in this article. 2) if those necessary changes were made, would you then feel that it would be ok to add it to this article? that's all, thanks! ^.^Sb7 04:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Per the above, there appears to be quite a bit of concern that the facts presented on this site are not actually true. If you found something similar about other links we have included here, you should feel free to point that out to us - I like to think we're all reasonable here. I do agree that we might be too heavy on the anti-Quixtar side and might need to cut some sites even if we feel they are professional presentations of facts. (ESkog)^(Talk) 05:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
      • I really dont want to get into what 'could' be added to thisbiznow.com, but my previous position stands.Gallwapa 05:19, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Geez, quotes from reputable company executives don't hold as much weight as someone airing their opinion on an Quixtar bashing site? I thought there would be some intellect collaborating here on a Wiki site. It's so easy to be a critic, isn't it.

I would agree. As much as Critics love to point out how "kingpin" distributors and the company itself tries to "hide" the facts from the public, it seems as they too have this need to "drown" out any inkling of positive. I agree with the Critics that Quixtar's Google Bombing attempt was shady, especially with all the blogs that came out without any substance. But I do believe that Quixtar learned from that, which is why they did build a website with substance in it. Whether or not the Critics want to believe it or not, they CANNOT deny the fact that these CEOs and Presidents of major companies and government officials are putting their NAME on the line when they are QUOTED on the thisbiznow.com website. Critics can go around all day saying Quixtar is fidgiting (spelling?) the numbers, but these Quotes can't be turned around. So what's the easy thing to do? Make every attempt not to include the link into a "NPOV" website. Which is why I don't even attempt to put it in here anymore because it'll be touted as "spam" or "blanking" or whatever wiki term is used. I also hear that Success from Home magazine is doing a whole article on Quixtar and will be doing interviews on not just top-level distributors, but by a variety of IBOs. Now, with ALL the articles and links and websites that are supposed to be "accredited" and "substantial" (just like how the AmQuix info website has nothing but "facts") that ARE included within Wikipedia, I ask, will these articles on Quixtar from a 3RD PARTY magazine be even considered to be included here? What most Critics don't understand is the more they try and hide the fact that there really is people out there who enjoy building their business (not just "kingpins") and that Quixtar is welcomed in the business community, the more they lose credibility and they really do begin to sound like rambling, disgruntled, former distributors. So, yes, it maybe easy to be a Critic on a website, but everyday they have to justify why most of them went back to what they were doing before, everyday they have to justify to their friends and family of why they can't fullfill promises they made, and everyday they have to find something that will PROVE that they can be successful financially in something else (whether they are or not isn't the point). --Illusion408 03:19, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to NOT include this link. Also, see "Take 2" for inclusion thoughts as well as "Article rewrite"

bwwsot.blogspot.com

• This blog is very unique in the way it breaks down and analyzes individual Quixtar motivational tapes. I'd add it to the list. - The Mule 02:15, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Disagree. Not relevant. Quixtar is independent from any of the entities that make the BSM. Quixtar does not make or sell the motivational tapes. If you want to have a description of the tapes and other material, then make a unique Wikipedia entry for it that can be linked to through the Controversy section.Stones12 19:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Agree to keep. 100% relevant to information control, and "cult like" aspects of motivational organizations.Gallwapa 22:33, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Actually, you stated my case exactly. This is about the motivational organizations, not Quixtar. Quixtar has goods and services, no motivational materials move through this medium. As I said before, if this is something that you feel deserves its own unique entry, then do it. Otherwise it is not relevant.Stones12 05:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I can see all the arguements presented above. I authored SOT to show how the BWW motivational organization is damaging and cult-like. In that sense, it is about BWW, not Quixtar. However, since there is clearly a symbiosis between Quixtar and all the MO's, keeping it would certainly be good. If I may offer a few suggstions, the best in my opinion would be to state in this entery the major MO's (BWW, WWDB, InterNet, etc) and pershaps do some links on info to those. Another would be to create a new topic about MO's with links on the Quixtar page to those. Being a little biased myself, I would suggest to keep SOT because the majority (with very few exceptions) of the people will be contacted by IBO's that are plugged into a system AND all of the major systems show to operate in similar ways. Thanks for considering, Xanadustc
    • KEEP IT. The System's are joined at the hip with the corporation, as RICH DUVOS has said himself on the DIRECTLY SPEAKING tapes. Gallwapa 20:05, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
      • The Directly Speaking tapes were put out in the 60's and 70's when there was no Motivational Organization system (and his name is Devos). Quixtar derives no income from the sales of motivational material and has no relation to AMI which puts out the BWW material that this site calls into question.Stones12 20:49, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
      • Correction - The Directly Speaking tapes were distributed in 1983, the year Amway also published an advertisement in popular newspapers which led to the 1986 ruling by the FTC that Amway had violated their agreement from the infamous 1979 Amway v. FTC case. Not that when the tapes were produced makes much difference, the issue is whether the SOT blog is relevent to the Wikipedia entry on Quixtar. I say it is.
        • I stand corrected. Regardless of when they were distributed, they have not been distributed for over 20 years. The content on this BLOG is one man's analysis of motivational/educational material put out by the motivational organization BWW, which is a completely separate entity from Quixtar.Stones12 14:44, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to INCLUDE this link.

Companies subvert search results to squelch criticism

• Much of this article is about Quixtar. It does an excellent job of explaining Quixtar's attempts to squelch criticism. Link should be included. - The Mule 02:35, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to INCLUDE this link.

Removed Kiyosaki

I removed Rober Kiyosaki from the "Supporters" because I can find no record of him ever endorsing Quixtar. True, he is very supportive of the MLM industry but that doesn't mean he should be listed as a supporter in the Quixtar Wikipedia entry. - The Mule 14:44, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Robert Kiyosaki Has talked at Quixtar Functions and has an officially issued talk sold in the networks. Yes the Talk is about MLM, but just him releasing that for sale in the Network more than endorses the Quixtar and the business. This is all containing in the legal rights of the sales agreement. If he did not want to release this to them being the Quixtar Motivational Tools he would not have. So fact is the post should not be manipulated just because of ones opinion.

"the post is should not be manipulated just because of ones opinion." Don't you think that's quite hypocritical for you to say, considering you've spent the past week vandalizing the Quixtar entry, eh 64.118.137.226?

Before you start throwing stones and making implications, why don't you ask that user why they deleted the sections. This is a forum for discussion, not for name calling and accusations Dom. The only way this page will get better is through objective thought and communication.Stones12 02:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I've got no problem with objective thought and communication. I've got a problem with vandalism and hypocrisy. And I don't really care to know why a vandal performed his vandalism. Or did you not notice the repeated deletions of the same material by 64.118.137.226? DonIncognito 05:04, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

DonIncognito, I do not support random deletions from a page with no discussion. I think what the anonymous poster did was bad form. However, from the tenacity of the deletions, maybe this person has a valid reason for the deletions. Most of the vandals I have seen, delete and disappear. On top of that, the post in the above discussion is well thought out and intelligantly written, very unlike a vandal. I welcome their voice, especially if they decide to register.Stones12 15:44, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

"However, from the tenacity of the deletions, maybe this person has a valid reason for the deletions." By this logic, if I replace the entire text of the BMW entry with "AuDi RuLz!!11!" twenty-five times then I must have a "valid reason" for my vandalism. I, however, think that the strength of one's convictions is irrelevant here. Furthermore, I take into account past behaviour when considering one's merit. But I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here.

• I removed the Kiyosaki entry due to my inability to find evidence that he supports Quixtar. Just because Quixtar uses his books, does not mean he supports or endorses the business. They also use books by Dale Carnegie but I don't think he has much of anything to say about Quixtar. My point is that I would like some evidence. Documentation. Link. Something that makes a very visible connection between Kiyosaki and Quixtar. Something beyond personal testimony of "I know he endorses Quixtar." I've heard Paul Harvey endorse Amway. I know he should be listed in that category. There's an audio clip floating around with that endorsement. I haven't seen anything from Kiyosaki. If it's there, fine. Put him back. But let's see it. Let's link to it. Let's not just assume that he endorses or supports Quixtar. - The Mule 14:44, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

• • The Mule, someone provided a link down at the bottom of the discussion page under another Kiyosaki header. I believe it was by the user PaulHanson.Stones12 15:44, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

• • Right. Well John T Reed says he heard him at a Quixtar conference. That's good enough for me. Add him back in with a link to that page in the support description for reference. - The Mule 13:45, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, if it shouldn't be protected, than never mind...our vigilance is good enough i guess.

Regarding Kiyosaki's connection to Amquix, there is some mention at John T. Reed's website. Reed's site is obviously very POV and the info is unsubstantiated, but if verification could be found then it would improve the Kiyosaki and Amway articles quite a bit. The site is http://www.johntreed.com/MLM.html .

I created an Amway category, if anyone has any suggestions or comments, please let me know. Cheers, Paul 06:01, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

You can hear Kiyosaki talk about joining Amway/Quixtar in the Yager organization during a 1998 Quixtar seminar and state that it's the best organization he could find. I think his speach here is more than enough to qualify as an endorsement of Quxitar. It can be found at http://www.amquix.info/sounds/kiyosaki_in_amway.mp3

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Kiyosaki has been verified as an Amway supporter, so he will stay listed in the supporters section.

Hidden Tools Business

Just wanted to point out that the "hidden tools business" really isn't hidden anymore, and hasn't been for awhile. After my own research, I've come to my conclusion that although there are many Critics about the tools business, the company is STILL around. Similar companies such as Avon, Mary Kay, etc. are time-tested. There are many Networking companies I've seen like Vision One go out of business because it is in fact an illegal pyramid. My changes are only to point the fact that although there is controversy, Quixtar is a legitimate business according to the FTC and its critics' (from what I have seen, read, and heard) main issue is with the business practices of the AQMOs. Maybe its just POV, I don't know. I'm new. --Illusion408 21:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

• Its still extremely hidden within the AQMOs, and there is a lot of deception surrounding it. Ask your upline how much they make from tools and ask to see their tax returns on their tool vs quixtar businesses.Gallwapa 03:15, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• Well, I don't have an upline, but my roommate is a Platinum and I've asked him extensively, how the "tools" business thing works. Even if I did have an upline, what would his income have to do with mine? A couple of bucks a week to educate myself? I'm a college student, I spend a lot of money already making McDonald's, Walmart, and everybody else rich. That's the same Socialist crap I hear from my teachers telling me how bad the rich is in this country. In a country where I can be rewarded for doing something, shouldn't that be a good thing? As far as a Platinum, that's really not that much income for him because he usually puts it back into his business in extra tools, promos, etc. So that tool income really is a help in which his Quixtar income can be profit. As a Platinum though, that's roughly about 40 people on Standing Order (depends on which AQMO you're in, I guess), according to him. As an Emerald and above though the total number of Standing Orders in a group though can be substantial and I can see how the income increases. But as I understand it, the Quixtar income is determined by a structure of a group, so it is possible to make more from Quixtar than from the "tools" business. Honestly, I don't care if they make money through Quixtar or the "system". If my roommate succeeds and earns more tool income I would be happy for him. He worked it and put money into it, right? Wouldn't you want to get paid if you took time from your family to speak to others which can POSSIBLY help someone? Wouldn't you get mad if you don't get Social Security when you're old enough to get it when you put so much into it?

So is there deception, yeah maybe and most likely (not by everyone though, maybe by most or a few, I don't know. I do know that there is inethical people in every industry, which extends to some of my questionable classmates looking for an easy "A"). But is it a secret? Definitely not. My roommate is VERY open about this. It just seems a little off something as the "tools" business that critics make it so "secret" while it really isn't. I've asked my teachers if they earn from the books they "recommend" and some say they do. Big deal. Good for them. I've asked my doctor if she earns income on certain prescriptions they give out. I don't know if all hospitals do, but they do in the one I go to. How can a company like Enron be like the way it is now with all the deception that they're executives did and Alticor not be sought in the same fate if they're executives are as deceptive as you say they are?

These are very similar to questions I have asked my roommate about in which I've had no problems getting answers to. Maybe he has been "brainwashed", but I knew him before the business, and he wasn't the greatest person to be around. So far, I've learned that a lot of this really just has to deal with "perception". Anyways, you guys are great! Have a great New Year! --Illusion408 06:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

External Links, Part 2

Seems we have reasonable consensus on the ones above. I think we have enough, and don't want that section to get too bloated, but here are some new ones to consider, as added by other well-meaning contributors:

• Gallwapa, settle down a little. This is perhaps the busiest time of the year for most of the world with Christmas and New Year. It is not surprising that there has not been much discussion on these sites.Stones12 06:30, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Quixtar Wiki

• The stated goal of this site is to have a neutral point of view, so I suppose it doesn't hurt anything. (ESkog)^(Talk) 20:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. Lots of valuable, quixtar related info which doesn't seem relevant to WP (No point to having it outside the world of quixtar). Attempts to be NPOVGallwapa 18:30, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
• I can see arguments against and for. For, it's a wiki using the same model as this wiki. Would seem sort of silly to not link to something that is as open as the site doing the linking. Against, it's still in need of a strong community to populate it with information.

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to INCLUDE this link.

Online Journalism Review

• Headline is "Company subverts search results to squelch criticism." Seems relevant to the claim of Google bombing and the like. (ESkog)^(Talk) 20:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Note: This was previously listed above under its headline, with only one comment. (ESkog)^(Talk) 19:21, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

• Keep - one of the few quality news articles about Quixtar

• • How can you not want quality reporting about a most ambiguous company? Absolutely keep.

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to INCLUDE this link.

The Official Website for Independent Business Owners Powered by Quixtar

• Added by a new user, who claims on my talk page that it is a useful site. I don't think it has much to do with our encyclopedia or any of the facts cited herein, but it's worth considering all the same. (ESkog)^(Talk) 20:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

  I looked this page over (and if pages could be denied links for bad design, this one is a winner) for some information. The only semi-interesting piece of info is Jody Victor's threat against Scott Larsen that he is going to sue the pants off of him. What relevance that has to this article...none I guess. Neutral vote on this link. Gallwapa 18:52, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. No consensus on this link. NOT included for time being.

The facts concerning Independent Business Ownership in North America for IBOs Powered by Quixtar

• Same as above. I'm leery of "Powered by Quixtar". (ESkog)^(Talk) 20:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

  This link, in my opinion, is as bad as THISBIZNOW. The links are to a bunch of password protected pages and appear to be to drive up pagerank of things like WWDB.com The PDP Facts page 4 (http://www.ibofacts.com/Support_Fact3.htm) say that the PDPs are covered by a generous buy back rule - but the buy back rule is deceptive - because it is at a "fair price", as deemed by the upline who has to buy them back. My upline offered less than 1/15th the original price for UNOPENED materials. Thats unreasonable, and I didn't sell them back as a result of it. It is strong arm tactics to screw the lowest IBO attempting to use that rule. The only way around it is to go into arbitration, in which it has been proven that Quixtar never loses there. http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2005/09/judge_halts_quixtar_arbitration.php See that link. Gallwapa 18:56, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

• I believe the buy-back rule applies to tools for 180 days. To my knowledge, my roommate has given back full value to any UNOPENED materials. Opened materials from 50%-75% depending on the condition. My roommate tells me when anyone decides to do that, he gives them the option to get a complete refund of their starter kit (if under the 180 day guarantee). He has told me he has had great results in downgrading them to Members an putting them on Ditto which nets average 15-25pv per month for him. Gallwapa, just a side-note, PERSONAL EXPERIENCE does not relate to FACT. My roommates admit that there are some in his "crossline" that does not play by the rules. He says that's why they're not growing. That's his opinion I guess. Just like your opinion seems to be valid here.--Illusion408 06:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

• The Quixtar buy back rule is 100% unconditional for 180 days (US) - the Tool buyback rule is a "reasonable rate" - Personal experience is one of the strongest factors when determining information about this business, becuase every distributor is supposed to be an "INDEPENDENT" Business owner, right?Gallwapa 02:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• Sure, just as any traditional franchise is, or simply as any INDIVIDUAL or GROUP is. If I have a bad experience at a Starbucks from someone who is having a bad day or was trained improperly, does that mean every other Starbucks is that way? I'm a Christian and I've been to many different churches and different denominations. Some I believe to be of not the best example of God. Shall I be prejudice to all Christians now? If personal experience is a strong factor, then what you have experienced and what I have experienced are completely different. I am not in Quixtar, but I have been to 2 major functions (spring leadership & FED), and a few other training sessions. I have met my roommate's Diamond (Youngblood) and have not felt anything of what is spoken on these "negative" websites. That is my personal experience. So, if personal experience is one of the strongest factors, then who would be right, or better yet, which would be TRUTH? Why is it that what you were taught so different than what my roommate practices, yet he attends the same functions and listens to the same CDs (which I often hear frequently in the background, and in my opinion different then what is "ANALYZED" by a former IBO on one of the links here)? What makes YOUR experience the determining factor on what goes on this NPOV website? Why do I feel that everything that I am writing right now is being torn apart by Quixtar's Critics, ready to point out how wrong and brainwashed (AMBOT) I am? I am not even in the business, yet in every "NEUTRAL" and "FACTUAL" site or blog I see, it is the Supporter that is drowned out by what is called "TRUTH" by its Critics.

All I know is that IBOfacts.com was created by the IBOA Board. The board is made up of Independent Business Owners, not Quixtar Executives, that were voted into these positions by Quixtar Platinums and above. The answers to those FAQs are based on THEIR experiences, which of course will be positive. (When I was in the Marines, I hated it and wondered why a recruiter can lie in front of an innocent 18 yr. old...I began to understand that to them, they weren't lying because they REALLY did have a positive experience) "Powered by Quixtar" just makes it official I guess, from which I understand, every website must be approved by Quixtar. If you owned a traditional business and someone said some stuff about you, what would you do? Wouldn't you do the same thing by creating a site explaining YOUR side of the story? Why are Critics so afraid to post a site (such as THISBIZNOW.com)? Just because it came from the company and not from an individual? If it did come from an individual, would it be considered valid to post on the links here or toss it out touting it to be another Quixtar employee? Am I believed to be a Quixtar employee? Isn't this page here about QUIXTAR? So why is the emphasis is on its IBOs who are deceptive rather than the company itself? Why is it bad to have Quixtar-related (not IBO-related) links on here? And why am I spending my New Year's Day on this thing? You guys are "awesome". --Illusion408 12:17, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• You must remember Illusion408, that, Diamonds are paid to be personable from stage and off stage. It has been my experience that if you get to know them, you'll see a different side of them. For example, take Dean Kosage. He is touted as one of the most personable guys in WWDB. Yet in the Declaration of Rebecca Kosage, she accuses him of assaulting her and her mother, calling them all sorts of vulgarities. (Available at amquix.info) that being said, my upline silver said to me, "you guys need to go eagle just so you can hear what Dean has to say when hes not around big crowds. I was up at Brad (Wolgamott)'s place with Dean for Eagle Day and Dean said, "I'm F&@(ing tired of all these lazy B*@(#$@! who won't build the business. They need to shut up or get off their A#(*@# or I'm going to go beat them with a sack full of money." One bad apple? Maybe. But who knows, when they are paid to be nice to you at the plan or major functions.Gallwapa 18:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

• Although I've never heard a Diamond speak that way, I have heard my roommate speak that way. Then again, he spoke that way even before the business (pretty much every other word was vulgar). I can't really imagine him never being vulgar again even when he goes Diamond, or whatever pin he decides to pursue. I've seen him before the business, and how he is today. Is he perfect? By no means, but he has grown more mature. In my point of view, so many people put these people on pedestals and when they see a fault, it's feels that what they've heard and seen in the functions is fake. People are people and going Diamond doesn't make anyone perfect. Yes, they are paid to speak eloquently (spelling?), but so is every public speaker, teacher, actor, etc. I would bet my life that Oprah Winfrey isn't perfect. But that's what makes her so relatable. My roommate has confided in me a few times of some of the "quitters" or "complainers" in his team. I believe taking that much "negative" from people can be frustrating. Hearing promise after promise of "I'll be with you until the end" only to see them fall out a few weeks later. Sometimes, that resulted in him using vulgar language to himself. Nevertheless, he does care about them and wants to see them grow, not just for profit, but because he has relationships with them. I'm sure it gets lonely at the top. I would imagine that Dean being in the business for so many years, would be even more frustrated. Dean may (or may not) have done all those things that his ex-wife said, which is why I believe his business began to deteriorate. But what makes him unique is the fact that through all that (where most people would have quit), he persevered. I've seen him once at a function and he spoke briefly about that and tears began rolling down his eyes. I truly believe that's something no one can fake, either that or he's REALLY a good actor.

Honestly, I can't stand when someone complains about how bad their day is or when they gossip about people. I make every effort to stay away from that. Whether at school, or at work, or at home. Whether they're in Quixtar or not, if there's a bad aura around them, I want to stay away from them. I've read many articles on these "negative" websites and although some are very good and well-written, I've found that most of it has become a forum for gossip. "Court-ruling today", "Diamond quits", "IBO sued", etc. It's like that National Inquirer for Quixtar. I find it hard to believe that Platinums and above spend ALL their money on stuff and vacations. For example, my roommate has become very active in the community and his church. I can't believe he even goes to church! Which has gotten me excited about it. Can something like that be put in these "factual" websites? Probably not. Which is why something like THISBIZNOW or anything similar isn't considered fact by Critics. "Quixtar and IBOs contribute so and so to Easter Seals". Nope, can't be true, or not worthy of being noted. "This person said this about that person". Yep, it's front page. Quixtar or an IBO attempts to put something positive, it is quickly torn apart and analyzed by people who probably aren't qualified to analyze ANY business. The only reason why I decided to post on here is because it's the ONLY site I have come across that has come the closest to any real "NEUTRALITY" (is that a word?). Even then it's still not a fair fight because anything positive is "vandalism" and anything negative is truth. FIRED UP! --Illusion408 23:37, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

• To be weary of things that are "powered by quixtar" or IBOAI - I have personally witnessed Diamonds or above, some of whom represent the IBOAI (such as Brad Duncan) misrepresent facts infront of thousands of people. Wikipedia strives for accuracy. Infact, the IBOAI claims that Quixtar is an OCS (order consolidation site) when in fact it is against Quixtar's rules to say that it is!!!

• Dean Kosage

• Attendance in all professional sports is dropping, and becuase participation is rising. False
• I have made over $115,000 / year from this business. Misleading ("this" business is implied that it is Quixtar, when, nearly half was from his motivational business and half was from Amway according to his divorce documents)

• Brad Duncan

• You can make millions from this business, I do! Communikate alone makes me millions! | While not technically misleading, again, he implies "this business" as Quixtar. Gallwapa 00:42, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to NOT include this link.

Grand Rapids Press article about Quixtar

• I vote keep on this one. Another reputable news source to draw from. Fits and supports the controversy section of the article. Gallwapa 00:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Myths

Quixtar was not founded by Alticor. In September of 1999 when Quixtar launched there was no Alticor. The Mule 23:18, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Unsigned anonymous comment

WOW, how many other "businesses" have this much drama about whats legit info and not, and how many other buisnesses try to vandalize Wiki?? I'm betting no truely legitimate buisnesses have it this bad... anyway, Quixtar ruined my best friends life, so I guess I'm biased towards negative info myself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.254.113.178 (talk • contribs) 00:13, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Controversy

I removed the following on 1/25/2006 - lets hash it out so it sounds less "POV" | In addition, a previous user on this page states that they are a quixtar employee and quixtar removed personal volume reporting - so the section below may not be accurate Gallwapa 17:16, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

• The Member/Client Volume Rule described in Rule 4.22. (Business Reference Guide) states that in order to receive a Performance Bonus on downline volume in any given month, an IBO must: (a) make not less than one sale to each of 10 different retail customers (e.g. Members or Clients); OR (b) have at least 50 pv of sales to any number of retail clients; OR (c) have $100 at Member/Client Volume Cost. This is the rule meant for enforcing Retail customers. Sales made online or over the phone by an IBO's Client or Member will automatically be reported as a retail sale. Sales made by the IBO him/herself must be self-reported. If this requirement is not met, the bonus for that month will be sent to that IBO's Platinum Direct. The Platinum then must distribute that to the next upline qualifying IBO. Although there is no way Quixtar can know if an IBO is truly making the sales volume he/she is self-reporting, it is the responsibility of the IBO to build their business in compliance with the Rules and Regulations.

• The 70% Rule was created (specifically when IBOs were under Standard Fullfillment - meaning the Platinum Direct took all the orders and distributed the products among its downline IBOs and Customers) so that no one can "purchase" their pin level. An example would be to buy 7500 pv worth of volume. This created a level playing field where more financially able individuals cannot "buy" their way to the top as other MLMs may allow their distributors to do. ALL IBOs must start at the bottom and work their way up. This rule also prevents IBOs from simply having "garages full of soap". Since the advent of Quixtar, the financial losses of its Amway IBO predecessors have been lessened because of Direct Fullfillment (Any IBO under this method can make purchases AND returns directly to Quixtar, which helps eliminate human error). Product returns are easier because a paid-postage return slip is included with every delivered order. IBOs now don't have to go through their uplines to make returns. This has been a point of debate with its critics..

I don't really see where the "POV" is. It seems 80% of the "Quixtar" Wiki page is "POV". But okay, let's entertain this in an attempt to be "NPOV".

• This is the rule meant for enforcing Retail customers - I just figured that since it is called Member/Client Volume Rule, that it wouldn't be much debate. Rule 4.22.2 states: If such an IBO fails in any month to make said Member/Client sales and/or to produce proof of making such sales, then he or she may not retain or will be denied his or her Performance Bonus that month on downline volume. It is the obligation of the IBO to self-report as appropriate with their method of reporting, by the official deadlines published by the Corporation, in order to qualify for his or her Performance Bonus on downline volume. This Rule shall apply unless the IBO is a currently qualified Platinum or above. I have seen my roommate's monthly statements from Quixtar. If any of his downline fails to report according to the MCVR, Quixtar pays their differential bonus to him. He, as a Platinum, is responsible and required by Quixtar for distributing that bonus to the next qualifying IBO who did report their retail volume. That is how it is in a direct fullfillment organization.
• Although there is . . compliance with the Rules and Regulations - An IBO can purchase 100pv for personal use and go on Quixtar and "claim" it as a retail sale. The Platinums, not Quixtar (much like the franchisee is responsible for his employees, not the franchisor) are responsible to ensure the Rules and Regulations are followed. Are they followed? For IBOs who build their business as a legitimate business, yes. Are there Platinums and above who don't, of course, like ANYWHERE else a manager, a president, a CEO, a supervisor CHOOSES to not follow the rules. Nonetheless, it is not Wikipedia to determine whether it is or isn't. The Member/Client Rule is found in the Business Reference Guide (Rev. September 2005) that is distributed to every new IBO with their catalogs.
• The 70% Rule . . - Companies such as Dri-Waterless and Guard (DWG), ACN, etc. allow new distributors to "skip" levels by purchasing a certain amount of inventory. For example, if that distributor purchases $2,000 of product, then he/she is automatically a "senior manager" or whatever pin. Regardless of whether they actually sell it or not means nothing. This type of incentive lead to "stockpiling" unsellable product, leaving the distributors who quit "garages full of soap", calling cards, Noni Juice, or whatever. Almost 30 years ago, when this rule was introduced, it was a time without the internet and ALL products in Amway where first sent to it's "Directs" (Platinums) and then distributed to their downlines - Standard Fullfillment (WWDB still operates this way until recently when they began allowing distributors to service their clients through the Quixtar website and take advantage of Ditto Delivery). The 70% Rule was meant to prevent a distributor to purchase unnecessary amounts of product to reach a pin level. It also allowed a level-playing field because it also prevented a more financially-able distributor to purchase products solely to reach pin levels. An IBO at the 25% pin level must have at least 70% of that volume either downline OR retail. Never did the 70% rule state that it was based on PERSONAL VOLUME. 25 years ago, there was no "IMC MODEL" (IBO, Members, Clients). Members and Clients only began having their own Registration Numbers after the advent of Quixtar. So when the 70% Percent Rule stated that 70% of total group volume must be SOLD, that can be interpreted as wholesale (to downline) or retail (to customers). At that time, the only rule pertaining to Retail was the 10 Customer Rule.

• For further info, refer to the statement from Quixtar in the Amway/Quixtar Analysis website - Please pay special attention to the part where the 70% Rule refers to downline IBOs, Members, & Clients. How about that, a "negative" website just helped me. Then again, the letter is from Quixtar, so the Critics are probably "leary" of that as well. --Illusion408 06:19, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• Product returns . . - I have purchased several products through my roommate and every order that comes in the mail comes with it, an invoice. On the back, there is an addressed return-form which anyone can cut and tape onto any box. If I ever wanted to return a product (which I have sometimes), I simply put my products into any box and tape the return slip and mail it in ANY mailbox. Within a few days I may get a refund or replacement, depending on what I WANTED and on what the product guarantee was. Some products such as refurbished items do not fall under the 180 day satisfaction guarantee. These are fully disclosed PRIOR to making the purchase. During my time as a client, I have never had a customer service issue. In fact, Quixtar has surpassed most of my expectations. For example, I purchased an eSpring over 3 years ago. It has been long since I have passed the 180 day satisfaction guarantee. Just a month ago the, electronic portion malfunctioned. I called Quixtar, and they quickly sent me the new part (a $160 part), no questions asked and I kept the old part to throw away. There were no negative consequences to my servicing IBO from Quixtar.

As stated in prior entries, personal experience is "truth" right? The Member/Client Rule is FACT. The 70% is FACT. However you all want to present it as "NPOV", have at it. I saw something on the news a few months ago about an internet community called Myspace. In there it showed a 13-year old whose reputation in his school was "ruined" because someone posted negative gossip about him on this "Myspace" website. Now I sit there and think, wow, how childish. Then I see things that adults do not just to Quixtar, but ANY OTHER company that person might feel has done them wrong. So now, we have a company who attempts to change that. Quixtar's Google Bombing attempt maybe a FACT, but the way it is presented on Wikipedia seems to be "POV". All the Easter Seal donations, etc. seem to hold NO value in this NPOV site. Many have asked why there are no "positive" websites out there. The fact would be if there were, it would immediately be attacked and flooded with negative and any attempt to keep a website "positive" would be deemed as "information control" by its critics. The fact also would be even if there were no "tools", no high-level pins who earn income from them, lower-priced products, etc., there will ALWAYS be something for the critic to say. Whether it's how an upline treated their downline, what the big pins "said", or how a distributor looked at someone at a bookstore. I have been looking for "truth" for several months now. Thank you for showing me. Many apologies for this lengthly entry. Just one man's "POV" on this "NPOV" site. --Illusion408 10:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Neutral News Websites

ʛwas wondering, how come all the neutral news websites put up were deleted? it's just business news, fair in just sharing other reports on the company's business developments; ie new products or new partnerships, etc.

my guess is, and correct me if i'm wrong, there are those who support Quixtar who might be deleting critics websites, and those who hate Quixtar are deleting neutral news sites.

such as:

• http://www.esource-news.com/index.php?p=3
• http://www.artistry.com
• http://www.naocosmetics.com
• http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.htm

Sb7 04:29, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

• Artistry and NAO are/were linked in the article itself, but do not necessarily need to be reflected in the informational links becuase, frankly, artistry and NAO do not have any relevance to Quixtar itself. They're exclusive to Quixtar...and that link has been mentioned. The "esource-news" site - thats the first time I've seen it, and it looks like a poorly written press release, one of the many Quixtar and the IBOAI puts out to "Prnewswire" and the other 'free' 'press release' sites that are of questionable content status. I'm leary of a billion dollar corporation putting out 'press releases' that say basically nothing but for some reason link to a number of Quixtar pages...my guess is it is the web intitive in disguise to drive up the pages' ranks. At any rate, I do not think that link should be included. The FTC speech may have relevance, so i've left it so far. Please leave the Quixtar blog link, it has been discussed (see previous discussion) and approved.Gallwapa 05:43, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
  • that's cool. you seem to have a valid point in saying that Artistry and NAO "do not have "relevance" to Quixtar itself", but please help me out, what do you mean exactly by that? i'm sure you have more to say than just "no relevance to Quixtar itself", b/c someone might interpret that logic as saying "in such a case, WWDB or BWW won't have any relevance to Quixtar itself since they work exclusively with Quixtar only to supply the goods and services". do you see my confusion? i will add it back until another voting has been made. innocent until proven guilty, yes? would it be fair to say the site link is innocent until proven to not belong here? thanks! ^.^Sb7 22:14, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
  • as for the voting, how many votes does it justify to remove or add a site? a majority? say, 4 to 3? 3 to 2? or a 2/3 voting? it's seems we're working on very shaky and uncertain ground here. this is the reason i thought we can remove "one man's perception of Quixtar" link. if you can help me out in clearifying this as well, that would be great, thanks! ^.^Sb7 22:14, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
    • We don't usually operate on simple votes here - we prefer to work towards consensus, which is admittedly hard to define. (ESkog)^(Talk) 17:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

ThisBizNow.com - Take 2

Its been several months since this was last reviewed, yet people are still trying to add it. I would like to open a discussion as to its value. After reviewing the information on the "By the Numbers" pages, as well as some of the other supporting information, I believe that this could be a value added link to the Quixtar article, especially if we could add a revision to the article that cites specific stats - maybe pointing out that several of the motivational organizations including WorldWide Dreambuilders claim that "Diamond" level distributors make over $250,000 a year minimum, yet Quixtar's thisbiznow.com shows the average Diamond in FY 2004 only made $175,000 or thereabouts. At any rate - the article would have to be reviewed and massaged. I think the article, in its current state is a good one that (apparently) hasnt needed massaging for some months, save for reverting the vandalism.

Thoughts? Gallwapa 06:14, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

• People are still trying to add it because there are still people who believe it's an important link and resource. What's more, it's a changing resource where information is added or changed over a period of time. What was discussed before is irrelevant today. I look back at what was discussed before and Gallwapa, you were very specific in what you wanted to see on there. Was it put on there, no. Now you're asking for another piece of information before you consider it "acceptable". What you're not understanding is this:

• It is a Quixtar link based on Quixtar facts. What Quixtar has become very good at is sticking to what it has established in its ads for Nutrilite, Artistry and as well as its marketing plan. How an individual or organization presents its plan is up to them as long as it stays within FTC rules. For example, the average monthly gross income for an IBO must be stated. The $250,000 could be based on what Diamonds in their specific organization has made either through Quixtar itself or with the tool income. I have studied the 2006 incentives for Quixtar and I can see how a brand new Diamond for FY 2006 can possibly make over $500,000 just through Quixtar, in their first year. When stating how much a business makes, it's difficult to leave it to minimums because it's not like a job where you income is fixed. An IBO's income is based on several factors, not just the "title".
• The website is to promote the opportunity on a positive nature. The numbers are there to promote the opportunity the way Quixtar wants to promote it. Bottom line, it's a postitive website. You criticize the site for not having "all" the information, but yet are happy to include the AmQuix info, One Man's Perceptions site, or the BWWSOT site because you consider it factual. In reality, these are not factual sites. Do they have facts in them? Yes, but it is specifically to promote Quixtar in a negative view. They have testomonials that are negative just as how the thisbiznow site has testemonials that are positive. How do you think Scott Larsen would respond if we asked him to put specific things that proponents of Quixtar would want to see on HIS website? How would you respond? I have NO PROBLEM including such websites into this NPOV website. Why do you have such a problem including a positive one? WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH IT OR ITS CONTENTS ARE IRRELEVANT. Thisbiznow is a good website with good information in it. Based on your past entries, I would conclude that even if Quixtar did put in what you want, you would attempt to find something else "not included" and point out how Quixtar is "hiding" information again.
• What you are specifically asking for is information that you know Quixtar will not put on there, thereby the site will never be "good enough" to meet your approval. There are people not of Alticor's IPs who are attempting to place that link onto this NPOV site because THEY believe it is important enough to be on there. Nevermind all the "blanking" and "vandalism" that happens on here, it is the immature individuals that do that. But there are many who do believe in what they do with Quixtar and they have a fair say on this site. --Illusion408 22:37, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
• Illusion, was that...uh...an attack on what I said? Let me try to rephrase what I said, in a different way: Lets find a way to incorporate the statistical information at ThisBizNow.com into a rewrite of the article. Gallwapa 03:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

• The ThisBizNow.com website should be included in the category w/ the Official Quixtar site, but should be labeled as testimonials. Since testimonials critical of the Quixtar Business are linked, these should be linked as well, but placed in this category to show that it is produced by the Quixtar company. Jvrt 15:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)Jvrt

• To me, the Amway article is something I would like the Quixtar article to be like. I've looked at other articles especially of Microsoft. Very informative and only facts are stated. There's a criticism section, but very general. There's a link to a whole different article to its criticism w/ footnotes, references, and external links. Of course, I wouldn't expect the Quixtar article to be that detailed, but this is of course a QUIXTAR ARTICLE. Not a BWW, or WWDB, or Network 21, or whatever. There are very little details of the company itself. Examples of factual links that would be of high relevance would be Intel, or e-Source News, or DL Tape, etc. These are 3rd Party articles which state facts which talk about the company, not individuals or groups. How about a link to IBOAI.com? I know you meant a rewrite w/ thisbiznow.com info included Gallwapa, but maybe we can expand on this. Since critics don't like the idea of a "Quixtar-made" info site in this article, how about the non-Quixtar sites I mentioned above who in my opinion, hold more relevance to a NPOV article than a "former IBO experience" website which is generally from one point of view? Even if someone did come up w/ there own positive view site, I would still vote it to be irrelevant to the article. A Site like extremefreedomteam.com is an example. So, I do vote for a rewrite. Any other suggestions? --Illusion408 01:03, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Summary comments from Gallwapa (talk · contribs) on 20th April 2006, prior to archiving. Consensus was to INCLUDE this link.

• In inspecting the history, I find that no one except for Illusion408 voted to "include" this link. Hiding behind a confusing removal of other users' comments under the guise of "see history for detail" seems extremely misleading and disruptive. I will again be removing the link. (ESkog)^(Talk) 06:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

• Uh, there were 2 of us who voted after like 2 months ...and we both said include. I didn't know how to archive talk... so I did my best...*blush*... Gallwapa 14:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

http://www.quixtarinsideout.com/

A link to "Quixtar Inside Out" was just added to the article by an anon. I've not seen this link come up before; thoughts? fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 13:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• I don't understand why people have to set up their own critic site when there's a few good ones already which they can add to. The Amquix and Quixtarblog are well written websites w/ multiple views of opinion. I haven't been through all of the site, but quixtarinsideout.com seems to be a very opinionated site with very little FACTS. I believe if the creator of the site wants to add his site to Wikipedia, he should start a Wikipedia article for the system he was in. If he was in WWDB, then his site might be applicable to that Wikipedia entry. The Quixtar entry, I believe, should try to stay away from specific systems. The mention of motivational organizations and sites like AmQuix are relevant to this entry, but not sites of former IBOs of specific organizations. With all this, I also believe that the BWW "tape analysis" may also not be relevant to this article. If someone wants to take the time to start a BWW article if there already isn't one, then the BWW "tape analysis" site might be more relevant. Have a fun April Fool's Day!
• A few notes:

1. Wikipedian's dont think the "systems" need articles here and have voted twice by overwhelming consensus to merge that information into the Quixtar article. See the archived article for deletion notes on WWDB and TEAM
2. In 1982, DuVos said that the corporation and the "Systems" were joined at the hip, and I agree that that relationship has become only stronger over the last 24 years.
3. Amquix is not a well written site, in my opinion. Its a mix of rants, facts, and conjecture, mixed in with some reader mail in no apparent format.

 Gallwapa 15:15, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

• Okay, I'm in agreement w/ you on Amquix. And I believe I wrote the above post before WWDB article was deleted. So what do you suggest on making this article better? Should there be a seperate section in this article w/ brief descriptions of each system keeping it as neutral as possible (I promise I'll do my best) keeping in mind not everyone participates in the systems. Discussing pin levels like the Amway article may be too excessive and unnecessary. Maybe a short bio about Dick DeVos and Steve Van Andel? Contributions from Quixtar to charities like Easter Seals, I believe, is important. Like I said before, the Microsoft article, to me, is a great example of a neutral article. I know many people who dislike Bill Gates and other wealthy business owners. Heck, even President Bush's article is more neutral than this one. So, I've found that one of the reasons why IBOs don't succeed is because they don't do what they have set out to do. They don't put action. Will we be seeing good changes to this article? --Illusion408 00:38, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

• your opinions on why IBO's "don't succeed" arent NPOV though :) Becuase my POV is that the "System" I was in didn't maintain its promises. At any rate, I think that "Quixtar" on the whole may be a bit much for Wikipedia, but I would like to point out that quixtarwiki.com has been becoming more and more robust every day. Perhaps we could a notation in the article, "For more specific information on Quixtar terms, leaders, and organizations please visit quixtarwiki?" (And for what its worth, no I do not own that site, I didnt start it, but I do contribute to that wiki because it attempts to be NPOV and get the facts out there) Your thoughts? Gallwapa 17:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I am the author of quixtarinsideout.com and I did not add my site to Wikipedia, nor at anytime did I desire to. If someone added it here because they thought that it belonged, then so be it. Whoever said that my site contained very little facts, I suggest you then go through my site before assuming that it is very opinionated with "very little FACTS". There is quite a bit of content out there, and clearly you have not reviewed very much of it with your off the mark critique.

• The thisbiznow.com (and other related sites) site has been added several times to Wikipedia, but has been taken off everytime. So just because someone added your site, doesn't mean it belongs. I have taken an extensive look at your site for about almost an hour now. And then some time before that reading a few of the posts. Where are the facts? Do you consider taking an IBO quote of the week and "analyzing" it based on your experiences are facts? Stating that someone is "full of crap" because it sounds like what your upline Ruby told you is tapespeak. Is that a fact? I never said your site was a bad site. It is based on YOUR experiences. Your experiences are your experiences and though no one can take them away, it cannot be based on what IS Quixtar because there are people out there who do love what they do. I'm going to assume that by me stating that, you might think that the people who do love what they do are "brainwashed". Again, that's YOUR OPINION. As your site may hold a place in the internet "blogging" community, in MY OPINION, it shouldn't be in Wikipedia. Chances are, it probably will because a majority of people editing this site are critical to Quixtar. But just because there are more critics than supporters, doesn't make it a fact. Take a long look at thousands of Wikipedia entries of various companies and individuals. Take a look at President Bush's article. There are hundreds of hate sites and blogs for Bush. Yet, the Wikipedia article is a VERY FACTUAL account of President Bush. I am not a brainwashed IBO because I'm not even in the business. Well, I guess you can call me brainwashed. From my experiences, I have seen mostly good. Much success to you! =) --Illusion408 21:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Well clearly you are either not reading what I write, or you are not understanding it. I never said my link belongs here, and I have said that I have never desired to have it here. I don't even care about the Quixtar corporation, my problem is with the motivational organizations that suck money out of everyone they can. So let me say just to make it clear that I could careless if you deleted it or not. It does not surprise me one way or another.

Also, you say you took an extensive look and that you read a few posts before your hour look. Well reading a few posts out of almost 100 is not very impressive. Not to mention that the best articles you can quote are a weekly IBO rebuttal, and another post where I was responding to a comment left on my blog by an IBO who wanted to get sarcastic with me.

That is what you looked at in an hour? You call that an extensive look? Did you listen to one podcast? Did you look at my posts doing the math of going Eagle? Did you see the other posts where I add up the math of the plan showing where the money is going? Did you look at the Answers to IBO facts series? Did you even bother to look at the Things you should know series? I could keep going here but I think I made my point. While my blog may have several opinionated pieces, thus the nature of a personable blog, there is plenty of reading out there giving factual accounts of the other side that many motivational organizations are not telling people.

• Don't get all worked up truth, because it will always be presented as 'your opinion' on the math on going eagle. :P I think the better point would be to start explaining the Quixtar article that there were 559 new platinums in 2005 and the average income for a Q-12 platinum is $41,970... not the $62,000 WWDB claims a first year Q-12 platinum will make... But no one wants to talk about that here...so put the truth on Quixtarwiki, in a NPOV way, and lets move on from there :-). Gallwapa 21:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

• Hmm..it seems there's a misunderstanding. This discussion started because someone placed the link in the article. To answer your questions, yes I did listen to a few podcasts and read through many posts including your story. You assumed that because I didn't mention it, that I didn't look at it? When I said I had an extensive look, that's what I did, not a skim-through. But, as Gallwapa said, it's your opinion. Is a rebuttal to the IBO Chronicles fact? Is Answers to IBO facts, facts? Again, I never said your site was a bad one. I liked the podcast on the taxes. However, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based on facts, not opinions. The IBO Chronicles site is also a good site, IN MY OPINION, that is based on the owner's perceptions. 559 new Platinums w/ average income of $41,970 is a FACT. That leaves the reader to form HIS OWN OPINION. Average meaning there are Q-12 Platinums earning more as well as less. I understand you're angry and felt lied (spelling?) to. I've learned that you can determined the type of person someone is by what makes him angry. In my perception, you seemed to be very defensive about something that wasn't meant to be an attack. Whenever someone looks for something wrong, they will always find something wrong. Critics have become very good at presenting EVERYTHING said on stage in a negative perception and putting it out as "fact". Am I saying it's wrong? No, because your perception is YOUR REALITY. In, my perception, you have every right to give out your version of the truth and that you're not a loser for quitting. I truly do wish you much success. --Illusion408 21:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

• Illusion: Lets get one thing clear: $41,970 is the average Q-12 platinum income, and there were 559 new Platinums. Not necessarily Q-12 platinums. Q-12 platinums make at LEAST $10,000 more simply for the Q-12 bonus alone. (lets not forget the extra performance bonus checks for the other months). Saying that $41,970 is the average platinums income could be GROSSLY misstating the facts. Gallwapa 00:18, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you Gallwapa, I stand corrected. =) I apologize for the mistype. I'll do my best to reread my entries in the future. The average yearly income for a Q-12 Platinum is $41,970 of which, .2440% of all direct fulfillment IBOs in North America (this would exlude WWDB IBOs and any other standard fulfillment IBOs I don't know of).

Article rewrite - draft 1 - please comment

• Okay, this is by NO MEANS final, but I took the liberty to put a bit of rewriting into the article. what do you folks think? Note: the final version will NOT include the NOWIKI tags, they were put in to prevent new sectioning on this article...if you know a better way to do this please let me know! Gallwapa 01:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
• NO ONE? - Its been a week and there hasn't been a single comment. Anyone have any thoughts on these revisions? Yes or no, ya or nay? Gallwapa 20:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Quixtar

Company type	Private
Industry	Multi-level marketing
Founded	1999
Headquarters	Ada, Michigan
Key people	Steve Van Andel Doug DeVos Jim Payne
Website	www.quixtar.com

Quixtar is a multi-level marketing company, founded in 1999 by the families of Richard DeVos and Jay Van Andel. Quixtar is now owned by Alticor which also owns Amway. While Access Business Group (also owned by Alticor, Inc.) took over the Amway infrastructure in North America, Quixtar still services "Independent Business Owners" (or IBOs) operating in the Amway business model in the United States, Canada and the Caribbean. It completely replaced Amway in 2001 as the marketing venture for products such as Nutrilite dietary supplements, XS Energy Drinks and Artistry cosmetics in those North American regions.

==Business==

People can join Quixtar as "Clients," "Members" or IBOs. "Clients" pay retail price for products and services from Quixtar.com, "Members" pay a reduced price but do not have the ability to receive bonuses from Quixtar, and IBOs pay a registration fee and build their businesses through retail sales (to clients and members), referring business to Quixtar.com, and by helping other IBOs build similar businesses. Their earnings are based on their business' sales and the volume of sales and purchases of IBOs registered by them.

The primary way to join and buy products at Quixtar's web site is with a referral number from an IBO. The buyer is able to purchase Quixtar's exclusive products as well as products from affiliated stores such as Circuit City, Barnes and Noble and Office Depot on the Quixtar web site. The referring IBO then receives a small percentage ("bonus") of the cost of the purchased goods, with Quixtar-exclusive products yielding a higher bonus per dollar. Quixtar offers a wide range of products for its IBOs to purchase and sell through Quixtar.com.

In 2005 Internet Retailer ranked Quixtar as the number one site in the health and beauty category. It was ranked 14th largest e-commerce site (for revenue) in the same survey. Quixtar sales for fiscal year 2004-2005 were $1.058 billion with $345 million paid out in bonuses and incentives. More than 370,000 Independent Business Owners received a bonus in FY 05 and the Average Monthly Gross Income for “Active” IBOs was $115.

==Movational Organizations==

Starting with Amway, various lines of sponsorship's began to produce and distribute seminars, tapes, and books that distributors could buy for a fee. Owned and operated by high level distributors these motivational organizations, such as WorldWide Dream Builders, TEAM, Britt WorldWide, and others, have been in the crosshairs of critics for years. Critics claim that because the CDs are sold for a profit to another IBO, that there is actually no end consumer, making the "tools business" a pyramid, and that a large part of many of the Diamond pin level IBO's income is from the tools business, instead of from Amway / Quixtar. In the late 1990's, a new contract was drawn up to help settle disputes over the tools known as the BSMAA, or Business Support Material Arbitration Agreement. This contract provides a buy back guarentee, and provides for an arbitration process if a dispute cannot be resolved between two individuals. Some alledge that this arbitration is unfair and it has even been struck down in one state court as "fundamentally Unfair and Unconscionable." It is not possible to join Quixtar without agreeing to the arbitration agreement.

Critics charge that the buy-back guarentee is not a fair one, because it only provides for the original seller to offer a "commercially reasonable rate", but sets no definition of reasonable.

There is also a great deal of controversy surrounding the "Amway/Quixtar Motivational Organizations" (AMOs or AQMOs) owned and operated by high level distributors. Quixtar and the AMOs, such as WorldWide Dream Builders and TEAM, claim that the business skills of IBOs are honed by the business support materials (BSM), or "tools", that are sold by the motivational organizations, and that the support material can be of help to an IBO if he wants to build a big business. Furthermore, during the registration process, IBOs are required to accept an agreement that is intended to make the new distributor aware that the BSMs - books, tapes, CDs, informational literature, seminars, etc. - are purely optional and that requires the above-mentioned AMO/AQMO's (also known as LOA, or Line Of Affiliation) to buy back any defective or unwanted business support materials within a reasonable time frame. New IBOs are also made aware that the producers of these "BSMs" are likely to make money selling them. Undercover investigations (like one done by MSNBC Dateline in 2003-04) also suggest that most the money being earned by the top-level distributors was coming from the "tools" business rather than through selling the products of Quixtar. The TEAM line of sponsorship, founded by Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, offer profit sharing of tool money, with those achieving the Platinum level and above. Though Quixtar representatives declined to appear on the MSNBC special, the company did publish an official "Quixtar Response" website.

Eric Schiebeler, a former Emerald IBO, wrote about his experience in a free e-book entitled Merchants of Deception. In his book he exposes what his opinions on what really happens within the motivational organizations.

==Outreach== The Quixtar corporation and its associated IBO's often perform acts of outreach. During the numerous natural disasters in the US and abroad in 2004 and 2005, Quixtar IBO's have donated hundreds of thousands of dollars of Quixtar products for relief. Quixtar is also a large supporter of the [http://wwm.easterseals.com/site/PageServer?pagename=WWM_04_homepage Easter Seals "Walk with Me" program]. <nowiki>==Supporters==

John C. Maxwell, a famous Christian book author, supports Worldwide DreamBuilders. Paul Harvey, a radio broadcaster, known for his 'The rest of the story' tagline has been an ardent supporter of the Amway program for years. Og Mandino, author of The Greatest Salesman In The World and The Greatest Miracle In The World, has also been a supporter of the Amway program, as well as Robert Kiyosaki [1], author of Rich Dad, Poor Dad and Cashflow Quadrant. Kenneth Copeland and Charles Stanley, well known Christian pastors and authors, have endorsed and spoken at various functions for some of the Motivational Organizations. Former President Ronald Reagan has also spoken at such a conference. Other supporters include MTV's Jeannie Mai, renowned chef and culinary specialist Jason Roberts, heavyweight boxer Evander Holyfield, and motivational author Zig Ziglar.

==Information Control==

In the summer of 2004, Quixtar launched a sophisticated Web initiative designed to manipulate search results. The "Web Reputation Task Force" tried to influence search engines in such a way that links to sites critical of the Quixtar business would be replaced by links to Quixtar-controlled sites. The Task Force's primary tactic was a form of Google bombing that vigorously exploited blogs. Reporter Mark Glaser explained how companies, like Quixtar, "subvert search results to squelch criticism". Greg Duncan, a high ranking distributor in Quixtar and a member of the WWDB organization, openly admitted that WorldWide Group supported Quixtar's effort to Google Bomb at a convention in Portland, Oregon in October 2004 stating, "We have hired our own propeller head geeks, to tell the truth on the Quixtar opportunity and drown out the negative lies on the web with the facts!" This comment was met with thunderous applause and cheering from IBOs.

On several occasions, users operating from IP addresses belonging to Alticor, Quixtar's parent company, have made changes to Wikipedia entries for Quixtar, Amway, and Google bomb in order to remove information pertaining to the company's Google bombing attempt.

==External links ==

Official Quixtar Sites

• Quixtar's Official site
• Quixtar's "Official Facts" site
• Informational website on Quixtar exclusive Vitamin Brand
• Income Statistics, Partnership info, and Testimonialsa

In The News

• Online Journalism Review article about Quixtar
• Dateline NBC report on Quixtar
  • Quixtar's Response to Dateline Story
• Quixtar's Tool Trouble in the Grand Rapids Press

Other Sources

• QuixtarWiki - For all terms related to Amway, Quixtar, or Alticor
• FTC's Ruling on Amway
• Archive of Quixtar information
• Quixtar Blog
• Merchants of Deception, a free eBook about Amway/Quixtar by a former Emerald IBO
• Detailed Analysis of Britt WorldWide Motivational Tapes