Talk:Anarchism in Greece

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Minorities[edit]

It is written "By the late 1980s, anarchism had turned towards a broader spectrum of issues: gender inequalities, patriarchy, racism towards immigrants, and ethnic minority repression (Slavic and Turkish)."

Slavic can be confusing. IMO should be replaced by North Macedonians and Pomaks or a similar more specific description. --Greece666 (talk) 06:44, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Ok, if we can agree that Bart van der Steen talks on p.76 about n. Macedonians (I think it is pretty clear) we can change those two words, so to be more specific. Cinadon36 12:14, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

19th cent anarchists[edit]

More mentions to 19th cent. gr anarchists would be a good addition.

for istance, platon drakoulis

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD_%CE%94%CF%81%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82

Noutsos covers them in his book on the history of socialism in greece.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Greece666 (talkcontribs) 09:01, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi Greece666, I think you are right that Drakoulis is missing from the article. Unfortunately I do not have access to Noutsos book, so I you have access, could you share a few pages and I 'll see if I can add a couple of sentences or so to the article. Ofcourse, you could do it yourself if you wish/have time.Cinadon36 11:49, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
@Greece666, courtesy link: Nuvola apps email.svg mail Cinadon36 czar 01:40, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Ι see that cinadon has taken up the task of adding more info on the 19th cent, and IMO this is great. In its earlier version the article missed a lot of info on 19th cent greek anarchism.Greece666 (talk) 11:55, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

" Following the collapse of the Junta and the USSR, "[edit]

This seems like a weird phrase to me because a) these are two unrelated events with completely independent causes and b) the two events 17 years apart. IMO it should be rephrased, prolly break it down in two phrases, for example "the end of the Junta had X and Y effects in Greece", "and later on the dissolution of the USSR had Z and W effects". Will be better both for clarity purposes as well as for the reader who is not familiar with Greek politics.--Greece666 (talk) 20:04, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Yeap, that needs rephrasing. Cinadon36 11:22, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
I rephrased but I feel it still needs some work bcs a) it is rather long and b) it says nothing about the present. Still, I think it is clearer than what we previously had.Greece666 (talk) 18:06, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Good job. Certainly your edit is an improvement. The real problem though is that there are no contemporary R. Sources (apart from some articles in the news [1]) so we can't insert a paragraf about contemporary Anarchism at the main body of the article· and hence we can not add a short comment at the lede. At least I am not aware of bibliography covering greek anarchism from 2015 to present day. Cinadon36 19:15, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
Does this help? https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.14321/jstudradi.9.1.0001?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents Greece666 (talk) 20:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

1981 riots[edit]

After the riots of 1981 {{sfn|van der Steen|2014|pp=71-72}}

I removed the redlink for these riots as I'm not finding significant coverage, at least in English language sources. Also nothing in 1981 in Greece, 1981 riots, or el:1981. Here's the quote from the source:

In the early 1980s, Athens was confronted with a series of dramatic riots. On November 17, 1980, riots unfolded when a demonstration—marching from Athens Polytechnic to the U.S. embassy—passed the Greek parliament. During these riots, the student Iakovos Koumis and the worker Stamatina Kanellopoulou were killed by the police. Less then a year later, in 1981, a concert of the Irish blues-rock artist Rory Gallagher ended with riots. As this was the first performance of a well-known international star in Greece since a Rolling Stones concert in 1967, the concert attracted thirty-five thousand people. The authorities could not deal with crowds this large and the event got out of hand.

If anything, looks like the 1980 riots should just be covered summary style in context in Athens Polytechnic uprising#Legacy. czar 13:06, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I believe the correct date is 16 not 17 November 1980. afaik Koumis and Kanellopoulou had no relation to the anarchist movement. I have not found any info about riots in 1981. I agree, it seems more appropiate to have this info in the Polytechnic Uprising article, it is irrelevant to greek anarchism, unless someone can provide more info. --Greece666 (talk) 14:07, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

the anti-authoritarian tendencies in Greece have their roots in Ottoman empire[edit]

the phrase above is unsupported by the footnote at the end of the phrase. Unless there is some way to substantiate this claim, IMO it should be removed --Greece666 (talk) 15:08, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

If I recall correctly there was cited ref of this quote but maybe it got lost afterwards. I do not have access to pc or laptop right now but I ll check it out as soon as I can.Cinadon36 20:31, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
[2] Looks like it was just sourced to Vradis & Dalakoglou 2009, p. 1. I'm removing it for now, but feel free to add it back with a source. czar 20:53, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
Hmmm, it is clear that I have created this mess. I can find no mention of the Ottoman era in Vradis & Dalakoglou 2009. Most probably, I forgot to cite Alexandrakis, Othon (2010) pp. 74-75, (already cited in the article). Cinadon36 11:20, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. I think I found the relevant passage (p.74). It continues in the following pages "It is interesting to note that Bakunian collectivism, among other things, touts decentralization and autonomy, a system that would have fit rather closely with established early modes of rural Greek inter-village socioeconomic relations, particularly during the period immediately prior to and following the collapse of Ottoman rule in the country. This combined with the general poverty and distress that colored this period suggests why anarchist rhetoric would have been appealing to a mass audience."Greece666 (talk) 11:57, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
Added czar 13:12, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
Made some changes that I think reflect the spirit of Alexandrakis. Let me know what you think. Greece666 (talk) 18:58, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
It 's pretty good but I feel it is more related to the next section, so I moved it [3] Cinadon36 07:12, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Dadaoglou[edit]

This person comes under three names (Dadaoglou, Daoudoglou, Daoudoglous). I wasnt sure we were talking about the same person until I saw that the relevant footnote (nr 10) refers to the book by Moskov, which is the one used by the Greek wikipedia as well.

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%95%CE%BC%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%AE%CE%BB_%CE%94%CE%B1%CE%BF%CF%8D%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%B3%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%85

The Greek wiki (as well as Noutsos, see p. 177) claim that Daoudoglou is just a pen name of Platon Drakoulis. My suggestion is, first to verify that the name as we have it in the article is spelled in the same way in Moskov´s book, and second, to appropiately change the content ("Emmanouil Dadaoglou, most likely a pen name of Platon Drakoulis" or sthg similar). Let me know what you think.--Greece666 (talk) 06:24, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

found this, it shows that ppl keep getting confused. notice also that he is mentioned as dadaoglou instead of daoudoglou. [4] --Greece666 (talk) 12:34, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
See prior discussion about el:Εμμανουήλ Δαούδογλου at Talk:Emmanouil Dadaoglou#Translated el:Εμμανουήλ Δαούδογλου, a section is missing (and previously, Talk:Anarchism in Greece/Archive 2 § Dadaoglou, Pantazi, Drakoulis)
The gist (first link) was that there was nothing to reliably cite on this point, hence why I had merged what I did.
re: the different names, if they're all the same person, then can simply redirect all alternatives to the same destination. czar 18:27, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

The first Greek anarchist of note, Emanouil Dadaoglou, arrived in 1849. Dadaoglou wasa merchant from Smyrna who met and was influenced by the noted Italian anarchist organizer Amilcare Cipriani. Shortly after arriving in Greece Dadaoglou was joined by a wave of other Italian political refugees(Pomonis 2004). As noted above, Dadaoglou was involved in the 1862 revolution against the first king of Greece, Othon, which proved ultimately unsuccessful, as were his subsequent attempts to establish an anarchist organization in Greece. Dadaoglou was a follower of Bakunian anarchy, also known as collectivist anarchy which informed the anarchist paradigm in Italy and subsequently Greece (Kottis & Pomonis 2006; Pomonis 2004; Woodcock 1962).
— The above is from Othon Alexandrakis, pp. 73-4.

Im really puzzled, some authors claim that Dadaoglou was a pen name of Drakoulis with absolute certainty, whereas others not only claim he was a real person but even write down his CV.--Greece666 (talk) 19:01, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Which authors are you referring to? Noutsos says that Drakoulis used Dadaoglou name in some articles he(drakoulis) had written. This does not mean that Dadaoglou never existed. Maybe Drakoulis was a fan of Dadaoglou and used his name to honour him or even explain/push forward a narrative that was associated with Dadaoglou. Cinadon36 20:26, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
YOu are right, Noutsos clearly says there are two diff Dadaogloy (drak. penname and the real person). Take a look at the Gr wiki, it mentions that some authors like Moskov doubt that Dadaoglou ever existed.Greece666 (talk) 21:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Plz check Greek Wikipedia. Dadaoglou is totally fictionΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:07, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

From the 19th cent to the 1940s[edit]

Most of this section is about anarchism in Greece but there are two more topics:

a) anarchism in what is Greece today (salonica and the boatmen) b) anarchism by Greeks outside of Greece (supporters of Makhno)

Im in favour of including these sections but it would be great if we could link them to the main topic. How did Greeks react to the actions of the boatmen? Did some of makhno supporters immigrate to greece and bring with them anarchist ideas? in general, did their actions have an impact on anarchism in Greece?

I also think these two sections should be placed in such a way as to not interrupt the narration of the rest of the info on Greece (maybe at the end of the section?)--Greece666 (talk) 07:43, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

No, maybe they weren't anarchists but a minority which just allied for a while with Makhno . Most of Pontiacs(Greeks of Russia/Ussr) were communist supporters

when they came in Greece. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:53, 7 September 2019 (UTC)


The new source provided by Czar is certainly an improvement, it's an article that cites sources. I still have some reservations as a) I have no idea if Chop is a credible academic (also note that I havent found elsewhere any mention of makhnovist greeks). b) We still need to establish some connection between the Greek Makhnovists in Ukraine and anarchism in Greece. The information that Greeks participated in Makhno's troops is fascinating, but as it is it is a great piece of trivia unrelated to the rest of the article. Greece666 (talk) 08:07, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

The connection is the same with Greek anarchists of Egypt or Turkey during 1910-30. They were Greeks in a time when Greek nation was something broader than Greece. So, in my opinion Greeks in Ukraine/Russia(sorry i don't know which is the correct) who joined anarchist army is tottaly relevant with this topic. But : keep in mind that it was a tactical alliance and not so much of ideological , so when Soviet army came they cut of their ties with Makhnko. I will check also Akulov's PhPhD about this topic, but i will need time. Thank you.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 04:35, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

I had the same objections, but i found that Chop is ok. A professor of history university. So its a R.SΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:01, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

That's great, do we have source? Also at which university does he teach?Greece666 (talk) 21:30, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
look here1, i think it is from some Ukrainian university.I don't remember if I found it when i had looked before months, but I had the same objections about chop and i found he was a good sourceΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 04:22, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
and here1
If i am not mistaken currently he is an assistant professor of  Zaporizhia National Technical University
Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 06:49, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes, Chop is Assistant Professor at ZNTU, thank you for this. With that said, I have seen academics (esp. from lesser non English language unis) write some incredibly bad stuff. Not talking about Chop specifically who at the very least gives sources, but I'd like to know if anyone knows how to deal with that. That sthg was written by an academic does not automatically make it RS, at least not in my mind. About the Harvard PhD now, it's a very nice source for events in the Ukraine but I don't think it has anything on Makhnovite Greeks. I searched for the term "Greek" in the text and what I found was three references all of them to the troops that Venizelos had sent to the Ukraine. Greece666 (talk) 11:07, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Yes indeed. Academics like Apoifis is just a hoax sharing about Greek workers movement. But we can't do anything for this even he is saying extraordinary facts. (If u wish, and if you know Greek i can explain orelse I don't wish to continue this topic) My mistake i didn't remember correctly, akulov wasn't referring to Greeks inhabitants. I apologize. Chop is ok IMHO. Just to mention that i was very negative against him1, but i was wrong. I think i ve found another source for his claims with the same arguments.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 11:47, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Apoifis is a great source. Publisher is University Of Manchester FGS. Cinadon36 13:03, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Policenet[edit]

  • "Σαν σήμερα τραυματίστηκε θανάσιμα σε υπηρεσιακό λεωφορείο από έκρηξη βόμβας ο Aρχιφύλακας Γεωργακόπουλoς Νικόλαος". Policenet. 26 November 2018. Retrieved 1 September 2019.

Is Policenet a reliable source? Not seeing any info on its operators or staff, nevertheless its editorial process. czar 19:16, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

IMO it is p reliable when it comes to news related to the police as it specializes in them. The same info can be found on the official site of the Gr police as well as in Vima. I preferred the policenet one bcs it is the most detailed, but I´m fine with changing the source.
http://www.astynomia.gr/index.php?option=ozo_content&perform=view&id=1993&Itemid=346&lang=
https://www.tovima.gr/2010/06/27/society/astynomikoi-poy-exasan-ti-zwi-toys-se-tromokratikes-epitheseis/ Greece666 (talk) 20:57, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
I 'd feel better if we could change the source. ToVima seems more appropriate. Astynomia.gr is a primary source, misrepresenting the facts many times, so does policenet.Cinadon36 10:04, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
Sure, let´s go with ToVima. Greece666 (talk) 12:45, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
For Wikipedia's purposes, an established newspaper (To Vima) is a more reputable source for statements of fact than a blog without details on editorial credibility. Thanks for the link! czar 15:40, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
That source does not appear to credit 17N though? (Or mention other injured policemen.) Was it confirmed to be 17N? czar 15:44, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
I found another source that credits 17N but now there's nothing to confirm the attack as retaliation against Melistas. czar 15:59, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
It´s mentioned here that it was a retaliation.Greece666 (talk) 20:08, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
Is enikos.gr reliable? (Any established newspapers/scholars making the same claim?) I suspect that Kiesling 2014 might be helpful here, per its index, but I don't have a copy. czar 21:28, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
chapter 10 is exactly what we want and the author has made it available online. https://www.academia.edu/40151561/GREEK_URBAN_WARRIORS_Chapters_10_11 Greece666 (talk) 21:57, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
that said, citing pages might be a prob Greece666 (talk) 10:45, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm in contact with the author, who can provide any specific chapters if useful (but probably no page numbers). If the shipping isn't prohibitive, I'm going to try to buy a copy so I can transcribe page numbers. czar 08:29, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Nice to see that the article has been improved the last days. Way to go @Czar and Greece666:! Cinadon36 09:17, 6 September 2019 (UTC)


17ν action HereΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:18, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Agios Panteleimonas[edit]

I think controlled is the wrong word. They never did in any meaningful sense, I say this as someone who lived there, and in any case their % in the elections was only slightly higher than in "respectable" neighbourhood's such as Ambelokipi. If what you have in mind is violent incidents against immigrants, GD has done more in the suburbs of the Piraeus, esp. Keratsini and Elefsina.

With that said, I understand that there are several texts presenting Agios Panteleimon as a place where GD forged its operational model. This is something that we can add in the text if you think it contributes to explaining how modern anarchism interacted with them. One possible start though not a RS

"But Golden Dawn’s most powerful play was securing a local stronghold in Athens by taking control of a city-centre neighborhood with one of the highest non-Greek populations. This was achieved through pogroms and individual violent attacks but also door-to-door canvassing. It also engaged in grassroots activism. Golden Dawn set up “people’s committees”, which complained in the media about immigrant criminality. It distributed a journal called “The Voice of the Residents of Agios Panteleimonas”. "

http://theconversation.com/golden-dawn-how-the-greek-far-right-wrote-the-playbook-others-now-use-to-go-mainstream-100987 Greece666 (talk) 13:52, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Control might not be the most appropriate word. What I meant, is that GD for a couple of years influenced the neighborhood in various ways. Immigrants had to hide from GD members, their kids avoided playgrounds, had to keep a low profile. Yes, we can expand the paragraph on the antifa actions of anarchist. Cinadon36 15:19, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Many thanks for taking the time to reply Cinadon. More info on antifa actions of anarchists would be a v. good addition to this section IMO. And yes, I´m all for removing "control", it gives the wrong impression about what happened, at least that´s what I think. Greece666 (talk) 15:57, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Δημοκρατικός Σύλλογος Πάτρας[edit]

Is this the same as Δημοκρατικός Σύλλογος του Λαού mentioned by Noutsos (p.54)? If so, there s some good info we can add from his book.Greece666 (talk) 20:09, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Attributing marfin events to anarchists[edit]

I haven't had the time to go through vassilaki yet, but im starting the thread since we had an edit based on it. Add any relevant sources here. Greece666 (talk) 07:23, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Clearly there is no hard evidence that anarchist did it- just speculations. If Vasilaki 2017 refers to "We are an image from the future’: Reading back the Athens 2008 riots" (doi: 10.4025/actascieduc.v39i2.34851), clearly it is not an investigation of Marfin, Vasilakki does not attribute her claim anywhere, hence it is clearly not a RS in context.Cinadon36 08:08, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if it is true or not. Reliable source says so, so it is enough. Please read here Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truthΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 08:54, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, pls do read WP:CONTEXTMATTERS.Cinadon36 09:00, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Cinadon, it is speculation not investigation or research. Here is the relevant part of Vasilaki (we can also use it for purposes other than Marfin):

"On the 5th of May 2012, during one of the most widely attended demonstrations following a general strike call in the midst of the economic crisis in Greece, members of an anarchist group fired a petrol bomb to a Marfin bank branch leading to the death of three employees. The ‘Marfin events’ as they have been known since marked a turning point not only in the attendance and frequency of protests which dropped significantly, but also in the ideological legitimacy that the anarchist movement enjoyed until that moment. Following global developments, the Greek anarchist movement was gradually leaving behind its revolutionary commitment to universal insurrection in favour of identity politics and an emphasis on form and life-style (Trocchi, 2011). Such ideological developments did not allow the movement to become a real force of change in Greek society; nonetheless, they defined the nature of the attacks of such groups in the years to come: the decreasing number and appeal of protests were countered with an increased intensity of attacks during the protests and the generalisation of quasi-warfare tactics. In that sense, then, if ‘December’ was a harbinger of the crisis of Greek State, Greek economy and Greek politics of all tendencies, it was a harbinger of the crisis of the anarchist movement itself as well (Lynteris, 2011)."

Maybe we can rephrase in such a way: "Some authors have attributed the attacks to anarchists, but the police investigation never reached a conclusion". Or anything that would make it clear that some people have speculated it was the anarchists but it was not proven at court. Greece666 (talk) 08:16, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I feel it would be incorrect to claim that "some authors have..." since Vasilaki is not providing us with a review of the literature, and wouldnt be right attribute her opinion to a number of authors. But most importantly, I do not think we can use Vasilakki. R.Sourses are to be used when they actually discuss in certain depth (certainly more than a couple of sentences) an issue. We cant say "According to Vasillaki, anarchists did it, because it is quite clear that Vasilakki is not invastigating the Marfin bombing. That 's why we need RS in context. Or else, we will end up with a collage of quotes/bits of texts as several authors mentioned something about anarchism in Greece, and would ultimately lead to SYNTHESIS. We need to find R. Sources that are dealing with anarchism in Greece and summarize them. Cinadon36 08:25, 11 September 2019 (UTC)


Vasilaki is a wonderful RS. Please lets stick to the sources. It's weird that Vasilaki was used for months for everything but now for Marfin incident is not enough.I fear these arguments are POV. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 08:47, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Do we have other RS attributing the crime to the anarchists? Btw, some anarchist groups condemned the use of violence at Marfin. This is sthg we can add too. https://www.tovima.gr/2011/05/04/society/katadiki-anarxikwn-toy-egklimatos-tis-marfin/ --Greece666 (talk) 08:51, 11 September 2019 (UTC)Edit: regarding Cinadon's comment, if all we have is Vasilaki we can write "one source has claimed that..." She wrote the article after the trial was over, I suppose she knows the full story. Greece666 (talk) 09:03, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Vasilaki's article is a wonderful RS for 2008 riots. There was an argument for Vasillaki that you haven't address (wont repeat it again).Cinadon36 08:58, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

another RS HereΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 10:42, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

This book is citing a 2010 piece by Joanna Kakissis (I believe but Im not sure it is this one https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/world/europe/06greece.html ). This is what it says: "But among the demonstrators were subgroups of protesters who numbered in the hundreds — mostly young and many clad in black, wearing hoods or masks and carrying helmets, wooden bats or hammers — and whom the police and other demonstrators identified broadly as anarchists." Personally, I think that something to the effect that many media blamed the anarchists has to be inserted in the article, but it has to be worded correctly. In any case, I ll try to write a paragraph about it today, and make it as fact based as possible, then we can take it from there.--Greece666 (talk) 10:52, 11 September 2019 (UTC)


So, what's now Greece666? Have you found anything (i fear you don't)? Btw https://www.tovima.gr/2011/05/04/society/katadiki-anarxikwn-toy-egklimatos-tis-marfin/, the anarchists don't say that the persons behind Marfin incidend were for real fascists(φασιστοειδή) but, επειδή αρνούμαστε να σιωπήσουμε και να υποταχθούμε στην εξουσία του θανάτου είτε αυτή είναι κρατική,είτε «αντιεξουσιαστική». their (anarchist) violence is fascist. Please read what the most anarchists groups wrote and apologized for Marfin incident. It is very weird that for some reason we can't write simple facts in English WP, the same simple facts that the academics and journalists wrote. I think it is something like censhorship. I fear that is something like Historical negationism, and is very dangerous cause it will promote conspiracy theories like those of Katyn Massacre denier and Stalinist Party member Nikos Bogiopoulos. It is our duty to promote the real sources and not promote Hoaxes. Please, prove that i am wrong. Bring some kind of source orelse, let me write what academics wrote. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 08:42, 15 September 2019 (UTC)


Marfin Trial[edit]

@Greece666: Marfin trial was not about anarchists, it was about the shortcomings of the administration (did have proper fire protection ie no fire exit) and regularly forced employees working while Molotov cocktails were burning their department) Cinadon36 09:10, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I had Sipsas in mind. My feeling is that we should mention that many among the media and the public attributed the crime to the anarchists. Saying so does not make it true, and ofc we should be careful to clarify this. Moreover, we have to explain this to make the events of the last decade understandable. For instance, the reply of anarchists that it was "fascistoids" who perpetrated the attack. If no one accused the anarchists then what they wrote makes no sense. --Greece666 (talk) 09:16, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
This is something that KKE (stalinist party) claimed and not the anarchists. Please if you know something more please inform us cause everywhere i have found anarchists to apologizeHere but maybe i am wrong. It is the first time that i am reading such a claim, i am sure that you will have some sources about itΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 06:10, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Sipsas and others were not found guilty for Marfin, if I remember correctly. The problem with expanding Marfin section is that we will be forced to use plenty borderline-RS greek newspapers instead of using academic literature or highly Reliable Sources (as in the rest of the article). If we can overcome this obstacle, I am all for it. Cinadon36 09:26, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
ofc Sipsas was not guilty, that was the point. Yes, I think a section about Marfin and the trial has to be added to the article. I understand the problem with the media sources, but this is the case with all articles dealing with recent events. Besides, iirc these events attracted international attention so we might get stuff from Reuters etc.--Greece666 (talk) 10:41, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Ok, lets give it a try. Cinadon36 11:02, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm working on it, but I will need a day or two because I have to review what all the major Greek and foreign newspapers wrote and whether they attributed it to anarchists or not. Greece666 (talk) 17:41, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Ok, take your time, there 's no deadline here. Not worth feeling pressure over WP articles. Editing WP is supposed to be a pleasant experience. Cinadon36 18:13, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Anyone with no attribution to anarchists[edit]

Please, present some RS or else I hope you will let the RS of academics like Vasilaki. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:50, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Zero RS until now. So I will be the first to contribute. According to KKE newspaper (communist party of Greece) they were provocateurs and not anarchists. 1

according to OAKKE they were anarchonazists 2

[in Athens By Nikos Vatopoulos] : the author claims that we don't know who did it, but it is possible (..)


Nothing more? Anyone to contribute?Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:15, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

It has been answered before. Not RS in context. Repeating the same question again and again doesnt prove you right if you get no answers. Cinadon36 13:17, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Cinadon. There is no reason to come to the same questions again and again.Greece666 (talk) 13:18, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Please, let me to write at least in talk page, don't revert me and here. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:17, 11 September 2019 (UTC)


Apoifis (a great source for user Cinadon36) wrote in his master thesis page 155 :During the march, a small group of anarchists and/or anti-authoritarians 132 peeled off from the main protest column and threw Molotov cocktails at a Marfin Bank branch on Oδός Σταδíου (Stadiou Road) in central Athens. and in a footnote he rejects the other versions There was some suggestion that the anarchists and/or anti-authoritarians in question may not have been anarchists or anti-authoritarians. One of my respondents raised the idea that it may have been undercover police. Although this is possible, there was no concrete evidence brought forward supporting this contention.

But its ok, he is for sure not RS in Context!!!!!!!!!Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:57, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I 'd suggest you avoid ironies if you 'd like to be taken seriously.Cinadon36 15:12, 11 September 2019 (UTC)


I can help you. Here, a Katyn Massacre denialist, who doesn't attibute Marfin incident to anarchists. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 08:28, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Sum[edit]

234 academics (Vasilaki 2017), ( Chares Demetriou 2013) (Apoifis 2014)(boukalas 2011), all the press media Reuters, NYT, Kathimerini, all politicians attribute marfin bank incident to anarchists (except some Stalinists Groups like Communist Party) and even groups of anarchists say so like Antieksousiastiki Kinisi and apologized for this incident, Conspiracy of Fire Nuclei in a publication said that it was an accident but 2 users claim it is not RS in context nothing. So we can't write nothing about the reason that anarchism declined in Greece since 2010. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:37, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

No, this is not what is happening. You are misrepresenting the case. (Greece666 said a couple of hours ago that he will write something about it). Pls provide a source that claims that "all" attribute the firebombing to anarchist or anarchism has declined in Gr. I understand that your edits are in the same line as they were a couple of months ago. [5]. Sensationalism and playing the victim. Cinadon36 14:47, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

If i am mistaken with (Greece666, i will ask for his forgivness. Maybe i didn't understand something that he wrote. I hope you have right. I hope i am wrong with this user. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:59, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
There is no need for asking for forgiveness, read more carefully and dont blame nobody. Concentrate on the arguments. Cinadon36 15:15, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

ps-Antiekousiastiki Kinisi's announcement on athens.indymedia.org isnt RS. Cinadon36 15:21, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

My apologies. Try this. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
So an article in enet writes down what various anarchists collectives has said. Nothing important here.Cinadon36 15:34, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
The important fact is that everyone -anarchist or not- admitted that the Marfin bank was burnt by a small group of anarchists. Academics, journalists, politicians, anarchists, everyone. Ok maybe you know better somehow, but i suggest that we must stick to the sources, until you publish a phd or something similar.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 15:42, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Everyone? you are misrepresenting the sources. Have you read them? Cinadon36 15:45, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

4 academic against Stalinist Party of Greece! Please read cv here.I think his paper is for sure RS in context, but maybe there is another promblem. Please tell me if it is ok, to write that 1+1=2. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 19:19, 12 September 2019 (UTC)


Conspiracy of Fire Nuclei in their publication for Marfin incident (from R.S) attibuting Marfin incident to anarchist violcence.

So, Academics, anarchists the World vs Stalinists members of KKE!! Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 09:04, 15 September 2019 (UTC)


This is getting more and more ridiculus, I mean talking about denialism ( at edit summary) or using the adj stalinist' to describe KKE in an attempt to desrwdit it, is like some kind of appeal to emotion arguement which is a fallacy. I understand when you run out arguments, you ve got to come up with something. Cinadon36 13:43, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

By the way[edit]

In page 154 Rosa V. claims "..whereas two police officers were killed during the attacks." Does anyone know who she refers to? 185.225.211.118 (talk) 11:38, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

from which book?Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:10, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

It 's taken from Vasilaki 2017. [6]. Utter nonsense.Cinadon36 12:26, 11 September 2019 (UTC)


I think the one is HereΑντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:34, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

and the other heavily disabled [2]. For a long time there were rumours that he was dead. For sure Vasilaki has wrong. Not 2 policemen dead but one disabled and one dead. Thanx. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 12:43, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

These attacks on policemen were from 2009, that is before Marfin. The attack by Sehta Epanastaton is in retaliation to Grigoropoulos. Unsure whether this is relevant to the article. Greece666 (talk) 12:57, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
of course, just answering. Totally irrelevant to marfin.Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 13:10, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Vasilaki is attributing the death of a policeman killed by a terrorist organisation to 2008 riots? Extra-ordinary! It seems that the articles at Acta Scientiarum lack rigorous peer-reviewing. Cinadon36 13:16, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
By the way, she wasn't the only person1. But maybe you know something that we don't know, so please contribute your deep knowledge. Αντικαθεστωτικός (talk) 14:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Fos and Neon Fos[edit]

I believe it is one and the same newspaper. Otherwise it is a great coincidence that they were both published in 1861. If so, the two sections about it should be merged. --Greece666 (talk) 21:22, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Bibliography[edit]

Found this which looks like a great source, could finally help us deal with the Ottoman period.

https://www.academia.edu/28504663/Anarchists_and_Anarchism_in_the_Ottoman_Empire_1850-1917

In my search, I came accross this document, which has a striking similarity with sections of the article. These sections should be modified. I am also unsure as to why we have Pomonis in the bibliography since it´s not used anywhere in the text.

https://www.academia.edu/2029152/Anarchism_in_Greece --Greece666 (talk) 14:09, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Another source [7]
re: Corlu chapter, wow! Really nice find!
re: Vradis/Dalakoglou, which sections need to be modified?
re: Pomonis, the one in the Further reading section? That section designates sources that are not currently used in the text, so would be okay.
re: Noutsos/van der Linden, from search, it doesn't look like this chapter contains the word "anarchist"
czar 18:04, 14 September 2019 (UTC)


re: Vradis and Dalakoglou, on a second look I was too harsh, but let me look at it again
re: Pomonis, has anyone looked at this book, is it any good? I am worried that it is included only because it was in Vradis and Dalakoglou.
re : Noutsos, true, but it has info on the social conditions, as well as individual anarchists (eg Drakoulis). Greece666 (talk) 21:24, 14 September 2019 (UTC)