Talk:Ancient Rome

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Former good article nominee Ancient Rome was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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November 15, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed
September 25, 2014 Good article nominee Not listed
Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive This article was on the Article Collaboration and Improvement Drive for the week of December 11, 2006.
Current status: Former good article nominee
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Sole superpower of antiquity?[edit]

In the opening paragraph it says Rome was the sole superpower of antiquity. It is an unsourced statement and is quite incorrect. The Achaemenid Empire and the Macedonian Empire were certainly "superpowers" in their day.--Tataryn77 (talk) 06:58, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

It's quite a subjective statement actually. How exactly does one define "superpower"? Do they have to meet specific criteria? Is it relative to other states of the time? In any case, you are right in that it is an unsourced statement, so it has been modified. Cadiomals (talk) 00:19, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Not to mention the powers of the east, like Han Dynasty China. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.3.34.27 (talk) 05:13, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Rationale for years of existence[edit]

The east lasted until 1453, and is even discussed within this article. Why aren't Rome's years of existence 753 BC to 1453 AD? The Byzantines were direct continuations of Rome. If the criteria are the years that the empire was ruled from Rome, then the capital's movement from Rome to Mediolanum (Milan) should be the end date. If the criteria is the end of any Roman political power in the West, then the end date should be when the Domain of Soissons was conquered by the Franks, or the loss of Rome by the Byzantines in the 700's, as the Ostrogoths (Ostrogothic Kingdom) allowed Roman institutions to continue including the Senate and (to some extent) Coliseum matches. Also, the Byzantines didn't just drop Roman customs overnight in 476, it took centuries for Greek to replace Latin officially, the cultures were still so compatible, that during Justinian I's reconquest of Italy, the Romans (in this case the people of Rome) welcomed the "Roman" legions of the ERE into the city. The atmosphere became so hostile, the Ostrogothic garrison simply abandoned the city to the Byzantines. The point is it seems to me that end of the Byzantines is just as important of the date, or rather the de-Romanization of Byzantine culture in the final centuries of the first millennium, than the deposition of Romulus Augustus, which didn't really have any real meaning besides symbolism. Considering the number of coups in the Empire's history by rogue generals and Odoacer's service in the WR army as a Foederati officer, it could be interpreted as simply another coup that was only put down a century later by the ERE. The ERE even recognized Odoacer's rule of Italy granted him permission to rule Italy in the stead of Rome, effectively making him the governor of the province of Italia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.3.34.27 (talk) 05:38, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

You could easily argue for an earlier end date. Cary's History of Rome ends with the reign of Constantine. Some (Mommsen?) see the Council of Nicaea (325 AD) as the beginning of the medieval era. Some aspects of medieval life (rise of fortified towns) showed up strikingly during the collapse of the 3rd century, which gave rise to Diocletian and Constantine. In other words, the end of Ancient Rome can be seen to depend on when ancient forms became medieval ones, and for that the 476 AD date seems rather late. Dhtwiki (talk) 02:49, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Just to add to Dhtwiki's points, examples from the 5th (Odoacer) and 6th (Justinian, Ostrogothic Kingdom) centuries cannot justify an end date in the 15th century. Of course there's a degree of continuity in history, right through Rome#Middle Ages and Papal States#Relationship with the Holy Roman Empire into the modern era, and we could have no end-date at all for Ancient Rome because Rome is the eternal city, but that would hardly be helpful to our readers. NebY (talk) 13:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

See also[edit]

We're starting to collect just about everything under "See also." These are also in the Portal, which is several removes away, I will grant you. But do we really want to add all the information in the Portal under "see also?" I can see adding articles relating to the city itself, Modern Rome, Italy/Italia, but they need to be more place oriented, I would think. There needs to be some point at which we stop adding articles, or arrive at a cap or something. Thanks. Student7 (talk) 19:34, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

The first ones are at least focused on Rome and indicate articles about Ancient Rome that the reader might not have guessed existed. But the last two, History of citizenship and Toynbee's law of challenge and response? Ancient Rome features in so many theories and overviews of history, politics, sociology, religion, art, architecture, etc, it's invidious to pick just two. Roman Empire is linked several times - in the info-box, in captions, in body text and as the main article for a section. Roman legion is linked twice in body text. Roman military is linked several times, including as a main article for the Military section. I'll prune those. NebY (talk) 20:17, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 March 2015[edit]

The hyperlink for the Sack of Constantinople is broken. It is now: Fourth_Crusade#Sack_of_Constantinople

Sungrazer11 (talk) 17:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done - I repointed that link to Siege of Constantinople (1204) instead, since the article on the Fourth Crusade is already linked in the same sentence. Thanks! --ElHef (Meep?) 17:41, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2015[edit]

Please add the ending parenthesis in the Caesar and First Triumvirate section: It says: In the mid-1st century BC [...] and optimates (the "best", who wanted to [...] Change to: In the mid-1st century BC[...] and optimates (the "best"), who wanted to [...] 130.113.19.154 (talk) 18:38, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done thanks for catching that. Cannolis (talk) 19:42, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Romulus[edit]

Romulus killed his brother because they were fighting who would be king next. Romulus takes over king and names the city of Rome after — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.201.152.186 (talk) 23:39, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Notable Ancient Romans list[edit]

User:Per82 started this list about a month ago. No rationale other than "added content" has been given. No other editor has added to it. Now, User:Student7 is placing "citation needed" templates all over it (I think a blue-link indicates enough notability, but we differ in our interpretations of WP:LIST). However, the list serves little purpose. If there are any names that need to be mentioned, that aren't already in the article, they should be included in the text, not a bare list without a well-defined rationale. I think that the list should be removed, since it has become contentious and cluttered. Dhtwiki (talk) 06:44, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree. There's already a list of ancient Romans for those who like lists of links. No need to duplicate it here. --Nicknack009 (talk) 08:23, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Agree. It would be a challenge to select ancient Romans that should appear on this page, from all of the others. Student7 (talk) 17:04, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
I was going to suggest a separate list, but that was before I saw here that one already exists. That extant list could use some work, too (alphabetization seems quite varied, linkage could be better, dates added and a sortable table made, etc.). Dhtwiki (talk) 00:46, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
User:Per82 has posted on my talk page, saying:
"Hello Nick! The reason I included a list of notable Ancient Romans is because I wanted to give the reader a list of Romans who significantly changed Roman history. The Romans I have added are great Generals, lawmakers and emperors. The reader when studying these individuals will have a full grasp of the entire history of Rome. I am aware of the list of ancient Romans, but most are insignificant to the casual reader and of little value to the professional historian."
I'm copying it here so all the discussion is in one place. The point is, lists always turn into massive undifferentiated data dumps. Start another one just for the ones you think are significant, and other editors will show up and add more that they think are significant, until you end up with another massive undifferentiated data dump. If it was up to me I'd ban lists entirely. They bloat articles until they're split off into separate list articles, they're not very informative or useful, and they duplicate the function of categories, which at least have the useful ability to be organised in a structure.
Lots of "Romans who significantly changed Roman history" will naturally be linked in the text of the article, their significance meaning they are mentioned a general overview of the history of ancient Rome. As well as being of dubious usefuless and bound to bloat out of control the second you take your eye of it, the list is doubly redundant. --Nicknack009 (talk) 08:06, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2015[edit]

please change the words "children of Rome" into a link to this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Ancient_Rome so viewers have easy access to more information on this topic. Chiappe4 (talk) 00:22, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Stickee (talk) 01:01, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2015[edit]

In the penultimate intro paragraph, the article mentions the state of "Palmyra" which it says was a splinter state during the Crisis of the Third Century. This links to the article on the city of Palmyra when it should actually link to the more general Palmyrene Empire, which was the name of the actual splinter state. 128.84.124.208 (talk) 03:07, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done - I've changed the link. Dhtwiki (talk) 09:33, 20 November 2015 (UTC)