Talk:Andrew Fisher

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Good article Andrew Fisher has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
August 30, 2007 Peer review Reviewed
September 17, 2007 Good article nominee Listed
Current status: Good article
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Good Article Candidate Review[edit]

Hello,

I've now completed the good article review of this article and determined that it meets all of the Good Article Criteria, and as such I am passing it.

It is well written, well referenced, and you've clearly taken on board the comments in your peer review with regards to this. All images are used correctly in line with Wikipedia policy. The article is stable and written from a Neutral Point of View. I'm particularly happy that this article can be promoted - it's an important subject in Australia's history and the editors of this article should be proud.

Congratulations, and keep up the good work. Pursey Talk | Contribs 10:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!! Timeshift 10:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits[edit]

I made a series of edits on 8 October, which were reverted wholesale by Timeshift with some odd accusation of “pushing my agenda”. My edits included changing the spelling of "Labour" to "Labor" - I acknowledge I was wrong on that score. But that still leaves the other edits. I’d like to explain these here for general discussion, with a view to having them reinserted. All comments are welcome.

(a) I changed "When Watson retired in 1907" to "When Watson resigned in 1907", because he did in fact resign the leadership, mainly due to concerns over his wife's health.

(b) I changed "Governor General Dudley" to "the Governor-General Lord Dudley". We don’t refer to our G-G’s as "Governor General Smith", and even if we did, the title "Governor-General" requires a hyphen in Australian usage (see Governor-General of Australia).

(c) "Fisher carried out many reforms in defence, constitutional matters, finance, transport and communications, and social security, achieving the vast majority of his aims in his first government, including such specifics as establishing old-age and invalid pensions, a maternity allowance and workers compensation, issuing Australia's first paper currency, forming the Royal Australian Navy, the commencement of construction for the Trans-Australian Railway, founding Canberra and establishing the government-owned Commonwealth Bank".

This is an exceedingly long and unwieldy sentence. I split it by "... in his first government. These included ...".

(d) "Fisher wanted additional Commonwealth power in additional areas."

I changed the second “additional” to “some”.

(e) "Both were defeated with 61 percent voting 'No'. An additional six questions were asked at the 1913 referendum, on Trade and Commerce, Corporations, Industrial Matters, Trusts, Monopolies, and Railway Disputes. All six were defeated with around 51 percent voting 'No'".

Both times the expression “per cent” was misspelled as “percent”, so I changed it.

(f) "At the 1910 election, Labor gained seventeen additional seats to hold a total of forty-three of the seventy-five House of Representative seats, and all eighteen Senate seats up for election to hold a total of twenty-two out of thirty-six seats, giving Fisher control of both Houses and formed Australia's first majority government, and the world's first Labour Party majority government."

I changed this to: "At the 1910 election, Labor gained seventeen additional seats to hold a total of forty-three of the seventy-five House of Representative seats, and all eighteen Senate seats up for election to hold a total of twenty-two out of thirty-six seats. This gave Labour control of both Houses and enabled Fisher to form Australia's first majority government, and the world's first Labour Party majority government". My reasons were:
  • the original sentence was far too long and unwieldy
  • it wasn’t Fisher who gained control of both houses, but the Labour Party government that he led
  • the phrase " ... giving Fisher control of both Houses and formed Australia's first majority government ..." is ungrammatical.

(g) "... engineered a double dissolution election in an attempt to gain control of both Houses".

I changed this to " ... recommended to the new Governor-General Sir Ronald Munro-Ferguson that both houses of the parliament be dissolved and elections called - this was Australia's first double dissolution election, and the only one until the 1951 election". My reasons were:
  • “engineer a double dissolution” might be found in a source, but it’s an inappropriate expression. A double dissolution can only occur if the opposition twice blocks legislation in the Senate. Then the Prime Minister can ask the G-G for a double dissolution. But the G-G does not have to agree, and there are precedents for him not agreeing (see Chris Watson). So, for a PM to “engineer” a double dissolution, he has to have not only the opposition on side (a contradiction in terms), but also the surety that the G-G will accede to his request (and there is no such surety).
  • The fact that it was no longer Lord Dudley but Munro-Ferguson in the vice-regal chair is worth mentioning.
  • The fact that it was the historic first double dissolution (and the only one until 1951) is well worth mentioning.

(h) I removed the reference to Keith Murdoch being the father of Rupert Murdoch. Rupert wasn’t even born till 1931 and is completely irrelevant to this article. If anyone clicks on Keith Murdoch’s link, they’ll discover he was Rupert’s father. That’s what links are for.

(j) France did not "award" Fisher the Legion d’Honneur. They wanted to, and sounded him out, but he declined the honour. No award was ever made.

Over. -- JackofOz 02:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I've now made most of the above edits, plus a new one about the suburb of Fisher, ACT. -- JackofOz 10:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

'in either house'[edit]

Do the appendages ive added recently sound right? The clarification needs to be made that not only did they gain a majority in the lower, a first for any federal party, they also gained a majority in the upper for the first time. Timeshift 18:41, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

There may be bicameral legislatures where a government can be formed in either house, although I can't say I've ever heard of one and I can't see how government would be decided if Party A controls one house but Party B controls the other. In Westminster parliaments, government is formed solely in the lower house, and how the competing parties fare in the upper house is irrelevant. Which is why, even if an Australian government is completely outnumbered in the Senate, there is still a "Leader of the Government in the Senate". This position could be described as "the leader in the Senate of the party that has formed government in the House of Representatives". It’s more unwieldy, but maybe it could be more accurately expressed as: Fisher's second Prime Ministership in 1910 saw Australia's first majority government, the world's first Labour Party majority government, and the first time any Labour Party in the world had gained control of both houses of a bicameral legislature. -- JackofOz 21:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
What does a majority being formed for the first time in the Senate, my issue, have to do with forming government? You don't need to be condescending, i'm well aware of how our parliament works. Timeshift 02:14, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Q. What does a majority being formed for the first time in the Senate ... have to do with forming government?
A. You might well ask, Timeshift, but you'd better ask yourself because that's where this originated.
  • The expression "the world's first Labour Party majority government" is fine.
  • And the expression "the world's first Labour Party majority in either house" is also fine. This expression wouldn't necessarily imply that Labour formed government, because for all the casual reader knows, it may have been the Senate, and only the Senate, that they controlled. But it's still an accurate statement in itself. This may be what you intended to have the article read, but I'm guessing here because that's not how you actually edited it.
  • What your edit did result in was the expression "the world's first Labour Party majority government in either house". This suggests that whenever a party has control of either house, it wins government - which is wrong for the reasons I outlined above. I took the trouble to explain that, because I don't know you from a bar of soap and I have no knowledge of what your level of knowledge of these matters is. And you did ask for comments, after all. If you misinterpreted my generosity of spirit as condescension, I feel very sorry for you.
I've reconsidered my suggested version above and I still think it's the most accurate formulation because it acknowledges that not all legislatures are bicameral, and the statement wouldn't have any relevance to those that are not. But it's still not the whole story, of course. Fisher's second Prime Ministership in 1910 saw:
  • Australia's first majority government
  • the world's first Labour Party majority government
  • the first time the Labour Party had a majority in any house of any parliament in the world - which of itself would not necessarily mean it won government, but in this particular case it did win government because it was ...
  • the first time the Labour Party had control of both houses of any bicameral parliament.

Constituency in infobox[edit]

10 points to anyone who can guess the issue especially on this PM page? Timeshift (talk) 14:01, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Labour? I don't think so, in Australia.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.2.218.132 (talk) 00:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Clarification[edit]

"the first time the Labour Party had controlled any house of a legislature; and the first time it controlled both houses of a bicameral legislature"

What does this mean exactly? A Labour Party or the ALP? Any house being state+federal or overseas? SA elected an ALP majority lower house on 2 April 1910, 11 days before the 1910 election. Timeshift (talk) 11:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

File:StateLibQld 1 100112.jpg - young Fisher in article[edit]

Does anyone know why the image has disappeared? Timeshift (talk) 10:20, 28 March 2011 (UTC)