Talk:Annamalaiyar Temple

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Good article Annamalaiyar Temple has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
January 2, 2013 Good article nominee Listed

Annamalaiyar Temple[edit]

Annamalaiyar is the right word as the temple itself in Tiruannamalai, in all the documents relating to this temple mentions Annamalayar only and it is a Tamil word. It would be more appropriate to call this temple in Tamil word(Annamalai) than in Sanskrit word (Arunachala), because the temple is in Tamil Nadu. Rajan 10:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The spelling of Annamalaiyar needs to be consistent. I am correcting the spelling to the one of the page. Arunachalesha 15:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


Details required[edit]

  1. when built - not clear as per sources i know, but is after 850 AD.
  2. by whom - original creators not clear as per sources i know
  3. size (24-25 acres) and some detail of what it has
  4. sources not cited, it seems
  5. Kartikai Deepam

one can try getting some info from [1] and [2] Arunachalesha 15:48, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions[edit]

  • There is no necessity of having two sections on "Pancha Bhoota Stalam" and "Aathara Stala". Bundle them up in some section called "Religious significance" or similar, and just mention that that the temple is part of the group and importance in the group. "The temple is part of the Pancha Bhoota Stalam, five Shiva temples representing the manifestation of the five prime elements. In Tiruvannamalai temple, Shiva is said to have manifested himself in the form of massive column of fire, whose crown and feet could not be found by the Hindu God of creation, Brahma and Hindu God of saving, Vishnu. Agni Lingam explains the mythics of life - duty, virtue, self-sacrifice and finally liberation through ascetic life at the end of Agni kalpa." The rest of info is WP:UNDUE here. Similarly with Aathara Stala.
  • Do not repeat info eg. "A celebration of this manifestation is seen even today in the age old traditions observed during the festivals of Sivarathri and Karthigai Deepam.[3][30]" should go in festivals.
  • Inconsistency in using hill name: Arunachala, Annamalai hill. Inconsistency in other spellings: Shiva/Siva; Parvati/Parvathi. Stick to one.
  • Confused: How is Ashta Lingam related to the temple? Is the Agni Lingam in Ashta Lingam - the Annamalaiyar Temple?
  • The "Annamalai" section has some WP:UNDUE problems. No need of the section. Merge it with some "Religious significance" or similar and stick to info directly related to the temple. Things like "The western world learnt about the hill during the mid of 19th century after the advent of popular saint, Ramana Maharishi(1879-1950 A.D.).[7] Ramanar's meditation cave is on the lower slopes of hill and the ashram(hermitage) complex is on the foothills" are UNDUE, relate to the hill rather than the temple. --Redtigerxyz Talk 08:39, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
All changes made. Annamalai temple is considered along the with the annamalai hills. The temple lingam is called Agni lingam, while ashta lingam refers to the eight lingams in small shrines around the temple - i have reworded to avoid confusion S Sriram(talk - my page - contribs) 20:03, 22 October 2011 (UTC)ssriram_mt
  • The article needs copyediting. Some commas, "a"s, "the"s are missing. I suggest approach the WP:GOCE.
  • What is a matif? "Geologically the hill is an isolated matif of volcanic rock"
  • The hill info in Legend section is out of place
  • Instead of relative wording like "date back approximately 1200 years" which changes over time. Write something like "9th century AD"
  • Italic for all books or poems
  • Link Vijayalaya, Nawabs of Carnatic and other rulers
  • Add years for dynasties like Tuluva Dynasty(1491-1570 A.D.)
  • Replace dead link
  • The Architecture section needs a rewrite. It repeats info about Rajagopuram, fluctuates (talks about gopurams then walls then again gopurams), needs copyediting. Split into more paras: 1 on gopurams, another on deities and shrines; mandapas; others.
    • The Tanjavuri Andhra Raja Charitamu mentions his building the gopuram and other prakarams(precincts of the temple)- who is the he in the "his" building?
  • Same problem with Festivals: repetition of info
  • Use full names for months, not Nov /Dec
  • Inconsistency of spellings: Nandi/Nandhi, Pancha Bhoota Stalam/Sthala
  • WP:OVERLINKing: link an article only one at first instance.
  • Giri Valam seems UNDUE, more appropriate in the hill article
  • Link the chakra: Manipooraga. Is it Manipura?

--Redtigerxyz Talk 13:52, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

All the above changes are made with these exceptions
  • some overlinking seen as infobox and links far from first are considered exceptions.
  • The Annamalai hill is not a separate entity as such - Girivalam is associated with the temple.
  • Some kings have no links and their years of rule could not be found

Pls help for the next level, thanks. S Sriram(talk - my page - contribs) 23:06, 23 October 2011 (UTC)ssriram_mt

  • Still inconsistency: Siva/Shiva; Saivism/Shaiva (stick with S/Sh), Tamil Nadu/Tamilnadu
  • Repetition: "The 11 tiered (217 feet (66 m)) eastern tower" and "The Rajagopuram(main tower) which adorns the east gateway is 217 feet tall with 11 storeys". I still think that Architecture needs a better flow and smaller paras (Shrines and Hallls is huge).
  • IMO, Giri Valam should be part of hill article and linked from here.
  • Still needs copyediting eg. the Kalahateeswarar shrine, the Vijayanagara style, the Pathala lingam. Hindu God of creation -> god of creation (common noun). the mythics of life???
  • Religious Significance: "Shiva, a Hindu god,". Why this definition again?
  • Link once in lead and then in relevant section or at first instance.

--Redtigerxyz Talk 17:44, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

>>>>> Have incorporated all the comments - removed girivalam details.

S Sriram(talk - my page - contribs) 00:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)ssriram_mt

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Annamalaiyar Temple/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MathewTownsend (talk · contribs) 15:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Will review soon! MathewTownsend (talk) 15:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi Mathew, thanks a lot for taking up the review. I have made minor corrections and will start incorporating the review comments soon you give them. Ssriram mt (talk) 02:29, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
Sri Ram, I have polished up the article a bit. Hopefully was helpful. Ramwithaxe (talk) 16:00, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
It was - thanks a lot.
No problem. Ramwithaxe talk 10:58, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Thank you sir! We realize it's busy for everyone around the holidays. Ramwithaxe (talk) 16:26, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Although I am not the primary author, I wanted to help out and have copy/edited a bit this morning. Look forward to your response! Ramwithaxe (talk) 18:03, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. Ssriram mt (talk) 02:33, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
  • There seems to be active editing of the page today. I have some comments to make, but I'm hesitant to do so while all the editing is going on. I will make some suggestions though:
 Done. I have added the worship part.
  • The lead should follow WP:LEAD and be a summary of the article, covering all major points in proportion to their coverage in the article.
 Done - expanded the lead.
e.g. there's too much discussion of the "lingam" scattered throughout the lead (should condense the discussion of it together).
 Done - consolidated references to lingam . :) Ramwithaxe talk 11:34, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
  • There are two links that need disambiguation:
British
French
 Done - contribs from Chantoke.

MathewTownsend (talk) 19:52, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

 Done - this seems to be a temporary issue, i have replaced with alternate sources. Ssriram mt (talk) 02:33, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
  • "In Hindu mythology, Parvati, wife of Shiva, once closed the eyes of her husband playfully in a flower garden at their abode atop Mount Kailash. Although only a moment for the gods, all light was taken from the universe, and the earth, in turn, was submerged in darkness for years." Are these your own words or the words of the source? MathewTownsend (talk) 17:35, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
My words. Would you like me to rephrase? Ramwithaxe talk 20:46, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
No, just asking. I can't check the sources and the wording is quite poetic! MathewTownsend (talk) 21:04, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Thank you! Please advise if any other suggestions and thanks again for coming out of semi-retirement to look at the article. Ramwithaxe talk 21:36, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
some notes
  • "Shiva then cursed Brahma to never have temples on earth in his worship." - could this be reworded?
 Done Reworded. Ramwithaxe talk 22:56, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
  • "During the 17th century CE, the temple came under the dominion of the Nawab of the Carnatic, with confusion and chaos after 1753." - are there some missing words here?
 Done Filled in. Ramwithaxe talk 22:56, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
  • "Muraru Raya, Krishna Raya, Mrithis Ali Khan, Burkat Ullakhan, French Soupries and Sambrinet and the English Captain Stephen Smith alternately besieged Tiruvannamalai, and while some were repelled, others were victorious." - do all these people need to be mentioned, or can they be summarized?
 Done reworded. (Sri rama: I did not delete any info per se, and left that to your discretion.) Ramwithaxe talk 22:48, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
  • The first paragraph under "Architecture" - should it be moved to "History" as it's not about the architecture?
 Done Moved section. Ramwithaxe talk 22:56, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 Done - replaced.
  • And ref 13 doesn't seem to have any information. In any event, you don't need to have a citation for every sentence, especially when it's the same one.
 Done - added a caveat.
The link points to district website, which has a sub page of the temple, which doesnt have an exclusive site reference.
  • Is all that description needed for the inscriptions, or is it too much detail for the average reader?
 Done - expanded.

(will continue) MathewTownsend (talk) 22:04, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

(continued)

  • "Girivalam, a practice carried out by one million pilgrims yearly" - all at that site?
yes.
  • "Inscriptions indicate that the festival was celebrated during the Chola period, and was expanded to ten days in the twentieth century." - how many days in Chola period? (also is this sentence needed? What about the other periods? Why is the Chola period singled out?)
 Done I have reworded it - the sentence is added to show the historical importance of the festival.
  • should it be "Annamalai hills"? Or Annamalai hill? or the Annamalai Hill? (I'm confused - I contributed to the mix up by my editing! - settle on one way to refer to it and be consistent throughout the article. I've noticed different articles and different sources use various wordings!) MathewTownsend (talk) 20:47, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 Done I have stream lined it to "Annamalai hills". Ssriram mt (talk) 23:32, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

(continued - just a few more comments)

  • "The French occupied the town in 1757, and it came under control of the British in 1760.[14] In 1790 CE, it was captured by Tippu Sultan, who ruled from 1750–99 CE.[6] During the first half of the 19th century, it came under British rule.[14] More recently, it has been maintained by the Hindu Religious and Endowment Board (HR &CE) of the Government of Tamil Nadu.[13]"
some "it"s seem to refer to the town, and others to the temple. e.g. is the whole town maintained by the Hindu Religious and Endowment Board? Could you clarify?

 Done - explicitly mentioned the details. I have reworded some confusing parts.

also, what is (HR &CE)?

 Done - it is Hindu Religious and Endowment Board - have expanded it in the later part.

  • The article seems to lose focus a little with so much mention of the saints and poets
e.g. in the lead "The presiding deity is revered in the 7th century Tamil Saiva canonical work, the Tevaram, written by Tamil saint poets known as the nayanars and classified as Paadal Petra Sthalam." - this doesn't seem specific to this temple
The section "Saints and literary mention" seems too long, and the long quote plus translation again doesn't seem specific to this temple. Suggest eliminating the general explanations and quotes. Perhaps the rest, starting with "Manickavasagar, a 9th century Tamil saint and poet, revered Annamalaiyar in his writing, describing the deity as "AnnAmalai".[44] He composed the Thiruvempavai in the Tamil month of Margazhi at the temple" is ok.

 Done - removed the quotes. Also, just noted that revered and referred are wrongly used.

The problem is that all these names etc. become confusing to the general reader, like me. It would be helpful if the article focused more directly on the temple and the history and literature specific to it.  Done - rephrased.

Otherwise the article is very well done. Some of the sources are not the best (district web sites, etc.) but are ok for GA, I think.  Done - replaced district website links.Ssriram mt (talk) 23:41, 31 December 2012 (UTC) Best wishes, MathewTownsend (talk) 15:58, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

The reviewer was indefinitely blocked, but I am going to pass the article per [3]. --Rschen7754 23:31, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Woo hoo it passed! Ramwithaxe 02:28, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

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