Talk:Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party

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RfC: Stamford Hill[edit]

There is consensus not to mention this letter at all, per WP:UNDUE. — JFG talk 19:52, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please indicate which of the following should be in the article: (prior discussion Talk:Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party/Archive 8#29 Rabbis - hoax?

A:

In September 2018, an open letter was signed by 29 rabbis from London Haredi communities stating that they were "shocked to learn about those that are claiming in the media that the Jews of Britain are outraged towards the Labour Party’s respected leader, Jeremy Corbyn", and went on to state that they had "no connection whatsoever" with what they described as "these irresponsible remarks". The letter was reproduced by a Twitter account calling itself "True Torah Jews" which is linked to the anti-Zionist Satmar Hasidic group.[1] The authenticity of the signatories was initially dismissed as fake by the Jewish Community Council of North London,[1] but they later backed down.[2] However, the two activists who took responsibility for the letter, Shraga Stern and Naftoli Friedman, said it is genuine and claimed to have gained an extra five signatures since the letter was published, taking the total to 34.[2]

B:

In September 2018, an open letter signed by 29 rabbis from London Haredi communities stated they were "shocked to learn about those that are claiming in the media that the Jews of Britain are outraged towards the Labour Party’s respected leader, Jeremy Corbyn", and went on to state that they had "no connection whatsoever" with what they described as "these irresponsible remarks".[2]

C:

In September 2018, a letter organized by London Haredi activist Shraga Stern in defense of Corbyn decried "fake antisemitism smears". While pro-Corbyn campaigners utilized the letter, Stern himself was condemned for saying he had the support of a large block of Stamford Hill's Haredi community by leaders of the community who said he did not speak for the community. In the January 2019 Holocaust Memorial Day Trust event, after a photo was circulated of Corbyn with Stern and Stamford Hill Jewish Community Council founder Levi Schapiro, Schapiro said he was "unexpectedly dragged" into the photo and that "I don't support Corbyn and never did.".[3]

D: Nothing at all.

References

  1. ^ a b Harkov, Lahav. "Anti-Israel Satmar Group Forges UK Rabbis' Pro-Corbyn Letter". Jerusalem Post. Retrieved 12 September 2018.
  2. ^ a b c Welch, Ben. "Charedi rabbis' letter defending Jeremy Corbyn is genuine, insist activists". Jewish Chronicle. Retrieved 17 September 2018.
  3. ^ Jeremy Corbyn in Holocaust Memorial Day row over claims Charedi men 'dragged' into photos, Jewish Chronicle, 27 January 2019, Lee Harpin

Please indicate A, B, C, or D (or specify a ranked preference), stand state a reason.13:14, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

  • D nothing at all, followed by C and A. B is clearly a misrepresentation, possibly in hoax turf. The letter itself is clearly WP:UNDUE - it was mainly covered over claims it was a forgery (onlt in JPost, JC, and Jewish News AFAICT). Subsequent reporting has been limited to JC - a few days afterwards saying the activists stood behind this - JC September 17, and subsequent coverage in Jan 2019 over an incident in which Stern (one of the organizers) allegedly dragged a Haredi man into a photo-op with Corbyn (leading to a stmt - "I don't support Corbyn and never did") in which context the letter is mentioned in the context of prior controversy/activity of Stern ("Stern was himself condemned for claiming his letter had the support of a large section of the Charedi community in Stamford Hill", "Mr Stern was attacked by leaders of the Strictly Orthodox community who said he did not speak for them" (Strictly Orthodox = Hareid)). A letter whose main significance is possibly being a fake and being objected to by the community at large seems rather UNDUE - but if it is to be included, then the context should be clear (C / A). Icewhiz (talk) 13:28, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
  • A Widely reported both at the time and up to today., Strongly oppose c & D.Slatersteven (talk) 13:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
  • D It's UNDUE. Bondegezou (talk) 14:19, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
  • D Nothing at all. It is UNDUE. Also, some of the proposals are false and/or misleading. Proposal A, for example, should be amended to note that in ultra-orthodox communities, many, probably most adult men have rabbinic ordination, even though they earn their living as accountants, shopkeepers, whatever. It is not the same as saying that a similar number of Anglican pastors or Catholic priests signed such a letter and, therefore, is significantly misleading.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:35, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
  • A claiming it is a forgery or a hoax is a clear example of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR and cannot be supported by the sources. Covered in two sources which the editors calling for it to be removed normally argue are reliable sources. If their coverage is not considered reliable here then they can't be used as a source elsewhere in the article. G-13114 (talk) 17:56, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Pretty trivial, though. We can't include everyone who signs a letter, pro- or con- something.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:57, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Except we do cover every letter signed by more then 2 people covered by RS critical of Corbyn.Slatersteven (talk) 09:44, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
  • C | MK17b | (talk) 01:46, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Of the options, none of which I'm totally happy with, B comes closest to what I would support, being briefest. As I think that brief coverage should be included, that rules out D. A and B are too detailed. Icewhiz, you should add some kind of indication that you were the originator of this RfC. I'm unhappy at the wording: "Please indicate which of the following should be in the article." It's really not up to one editor to give other editors four different options and ask editors which one to use. Presumably, option A is the most recent version of what was in the article? Where did the other options come from? Note that the "prior discussion" (Talk:Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party/Archive 8#29 Rabbis - hoax?) is still open. You were asked to provide a suggested text for discussion, not to write a number of options and ask editors to choose between them. Personally, being unhappy with the wording of any of the options and viewing the nature of this RfC as malformed, I'm not going to regard any claims that the woding has been fixed by this RfC as valid.     ←   ZScarpia   12:44, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment: it's curious that WP:UNDUE, which is to do with balancing different viewpoints, is being used as an argument, not for reducing the amount of text devoted to the letter, but for removing any mention of it at all.     ←   ZScarpia   15:29, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
A i did not like because once the letter was proven not to be fake, why mention that some sources questioned it validity. C because the second sentence regards Stern not speaking for the community is unsourced. D the are few examples going the other way. ~ BOD ~ TALK 11:01, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
C is sourced to the JC piece from Jan 2019 - every single bit appears in the source. See quotes from JC piece for 2nd sentence: "But Mr Stern was himself condemned for claiming his letter had the support of a large section of the Charedi community in Stamford Hill." ... "The letter was picked up pro-Corbyn campaigners in an attempt to discredit the Board - but Mr Stern was attacked by leaders of the Strictly Orthodox community who said he did not speak for them." JC. The false assertion above should be struckIcewhiz (talk) 11:14, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
  • D UNDUE. ShimonChai (talk) 00:58, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
  • D UNDUE. The longer versions are excessively lengthy, and still don't give enough context to fully make sense; the shorter version is seriously misleading. Best just to remove. The secondary coverage mostly related to the controversy about whether it was legit or not so hard to see it as really noteworthy, especially in an already bloated article. BobFromBrockley (talk) 22:43, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
  • D UNDUE. On top of the fact that it's totally undue and trivial, they're not even well written. Had to read it over several times just to understand what was being stated. ModerateMike729 (talk) 18:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
  • B. Strongly oppose C as WP:SYNTH and for relying on articles that have been retracted or debunked; somewhat less strong opposition to A, which is more accurate but which gives unnecessary weight to what seems to have been a brief journalistic mistake that went nowhere. If we go with D, I feel we need to go back over the article and remove several similar statements that are currently included to ensure WP:NPOV, since there's a lot of stuff currently there that attracted less coverage than this. --Aquillion (talk) 19:25, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
    Retractions have not been presented for any news item here.Icewhiz (talk) 19:29, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
  • D nothing at all, out of restraint, seems UNDUE, and is a bit OFFTOPIC not directly or indirectly on anti Semitic acts but into Internet squabbling about whether claims about reactions are real. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:22, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
  • A - as content is noteworthy with significant coverage or B for due weight. RevertBob (talk) 20:15, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
  • 'D I can go to the grocery store and find 30 rabbis buying gefilte fish, as EM Gregory pointed out, having rabbinic ordination is not the same thing as being a priest or iman or minister or some other religious ordination. So it's clearly undue and not noteworthy to find 29 people with an opinion. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:20, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
  • D or minimal inclusion. Just seems like a group of random rabbis who don’t necessarily speak for anyone else. It’s not an organized group or anything, just a random selection. If it gets a lot of coverage maybe minimal inclusion would be warranted. But right now it just seems like apologism. (note: notified by Legobot)‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ᐐT₳LKᐬ 10:53, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
  • D (nothing): This, as a micro-subtopic, has WP:UNDUE, WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE, and WP:NOT#NEWS problems. All of the proposed passages about it also have WP:TONE issues, and are written in a scandal-sheet kind of way, focusing on he-said-she-said and posturing. The quoted material doesn't even make a lot of sense (it's full of weasely blather), and could have been paraphrased much more concisely, especially since at this point in the article it's already clear who Corbyn is.

    If something like this is in the article at all, it should be highly compressed, e.g.: "In September 2018, an open letter from 29 London Haredi rabbis defended Jeremy Corbyn against accusations of anti-semitism." The end. However, I don't think even this should be included; 30-ish random rabbis is not encyclopedically significant.

    PS: Version C doesn't actually make sense in English, twice over. You can't "organise a letter" or "utilise a letter". That's like saying "erect a nap" or "snort an elephant"; those verbs just don't apply to those nouns. I think the first meant something like "a letter-writing campaign organised by [x]", or "a letter written by [x] and co-signed by [y]", or something like that. I'm not sure what was meant in the "utilise" segment, but whatever it is, this isn't encyclopedic writing.
     — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  14:33, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

  • D arguments are most convincing to me. Jzsj (talk) 16:08, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
  • B per ZScarpia. There is a consistent effort throughout the editing process here to erase any mention of Jewish voices disagreeing with the 'official line' put down by the major Jewish political bodies. It's patent ethnonationalist POV pushing, and I'm surprised those in favour of erasure cannot see it.Nishidani (talk) 16:25, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Extended discussion of the Rabbis' letter RfC[edit]

C does in fact conflate two different and unrelated events.Slatersteven (talk) 14:02, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

C is the latest coverage of this letter in the context of Mr. Stern - the letter's organizer. It would seem the lack of support is such that Stern resorts to dragging other Haredi men into photo-ops - who then loudly protest about this.Icewhiz (talk) 15:38, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
And if we only covered the letter (interesting, ongoing coverage) fine. The photo opp is wholly unrelated to the letter, other then one of the participants also had a hand in the letter.Slatersteven (talk) 15:43, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
The sole coverage in RSes this letter received is in the context of dubious activity. Lately a single item on forcefully dragging people into a photo-op, and back in September on the letter itself being a possible forgery (JN and JPost reporting once on the possible forgery and otherwise not covering the letter since). If we are to include this, then it is equally DUE to cover photo-op dragging which seems to be the sole context this dodgy letter receives any sembelence of continuing coverage. Icewhiz (talk) 20:24, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
NO its not, at least one JP article stated that the original claim made (by the JCC [[1]]) had been withdrawn, and the JN that said "It appears, however, that the letter may well be authentic and the row over its appearance is part of an ongoing “turf war” within Stamford Hill as to who has overall authority in the community.". Multiple RS have covered this, have multiple RS covered the "photo opp" (and including it, anyway, does not mean as part of this incident, it should be separate.Slatersteven (talk) 11:05, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
"It would seem the lack of support is such that Stern resorts to dragging other Haredi men into photo-ops." Only if a large dose of negativc inferrence is applied. And it would be better if the sources being used to cover the Ultra-Orthodox community's position didn't have a commmon WP:PARTISAN bias.     ←   ZScarpia   12:45, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

A few more sources [[2]], [[3]] (no claims of false hood and a confirmation that some of the signatories said they had signed it), [[4]].Slatersteven (talk) 10:51, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

I will add that this is long term content, thus the RFC is about the wording, not its inclusion as such.Slatersteven (talk) 11:43, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Removal of this not so long-term content (harks back to Sep 2019, has been contested to various degrees since introduction) is an option in the RfC per WP:UNDUE. Icewhiz (talk) 12:52, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
That would make it 5 months old, that is pretty long term.Slatersteven (talk) 08:43, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Also, an alternative view of events by Jewish Voice for Labour (the blog is not reliable for anything but the views of JVL of course): [5][6][7]. And Forward and +972 have articles which takes a different view to the Jewish Chronicle and its like too.[8]     ←   ZScarpia   12:58, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

@Nishidani: Re "It's patent ethnonationalist POV pushing, and I'm surprised those in favour of erasure cannot see it" – I'm actually very alert for that sort of thing (I wrote WP:ETHNO, and "my group versus yours" PoV-warring and manipulation of WP content is the general main subject of WP:OTR, which I fortunately rarely need to add anything to). But I don't see it here. Any time some public figure is dubiously accused of some offensive "-ism", it's always an accusation by a subset of people who could be offended (namely, an over-reactive and easily offended subset who imagine themselves mind-readers who always know what someone's intent is). It's implicit in the nature of that entire kind of public controversy that not every single person who could have that perception does have it, much less that they must have it because of their cultural or genetic background. Remember that it's not WP's job to determine whether someone is antisemitic, or whether antisemitism is a real and pervasive problem in the Labour Party. We're just reporting as controversies what the RS are telling us are controversies. They couldn't be controversies if no one was controverting them, so we need not dwell on minor details of who is controverting whom. Anyway, I did lay out a shorter version that could be viable, but I don't think it's really necessary.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  01:45, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

I have a professional interest in the topic of ethnic identity, so of course I appreciate your work at WP:ETHNO.
Editors who pursue the dramatization of the issue look ethnonationalist if they (a) insist on minutely documenting everything regarding the fears and perceptions of an anti-Semitic threat to the existence of British Jews (b) while constantly challenging as WP:Undue voices within that same community who happen to not share the majoritarian POV.
Wikipedia articles should aspire to encyclopedic quality, and be written sub quadam aeternitatis specie, that wonderful Spinozan phrase for one of the characteristics of rational analysis, a corrective to the temptation to get entangled in (WP:Recentism). Blow by blow sourcing is hectic, frantic indeed, over what to winnow, and what to glean. When that runs into a two/three year long day by day editing regime, the result is going to be awkward, inevitably. Just as an observer, I would expect that via Merton's law of self-fulfilling prophecies, esp. were Labour to lose the next election, this hullabaloo, and those who promote it, would naturally feed the resentment of the defeated esp by playing into the anti-Semitic fantasy of a small elite dictating national outcomes.
As to this article, we are dealing with a controversy concerning 600,000 members of a party, and the over 12,000,000 people who voted for it (2014) and their ostensible attitudes to 0.5% of the English population. Mainstream newspaper coverage is predominantly against Corbyn, and to a lesser extent, the Labour party under his leadership. The Guardian has strong Blairite sympathy.
As to the 0.5%, 85% think the case closed: of English parties, Labour and Corbyn display either an anti-Semitic attitude or are careless about it. That this perception contradicts everything comparative research has yielded up about the topic of British political parties and anti-Semitism is immaterial. Since Labour and Corbyn's attitude attracts huge media attention, whatever the imbalance, one has to deal with that.
Of the 0.5% you have a split, 85% affirm the thesis, 15% deny it, hence of course WP:Due kicks in, not surely to elide the faceted realities of the 15%? The 15% are made up of (a) orthodox religious communities and their leaders, (b) Jewish Labour militants critical of Israel, (c) and public figures, assorted intellectuals, and legal experts on human rights like Sir Stephen Sedley. . What I see is far too much prose overall, no sense of encyclopedic synthesis, and repeated edit battles over include/exclude when any experienced editor/writer could sum up the fact that 29 rabbis, 12 Holocaust survivors, Labour Jewish groups and public intellectuals of Jewish background do not concur with the polled Jewish majority in a short 4/5 sentence paragraph. Since that is possible,the keep in as a significant minority/keep out as fringe tussle is a exasperatingly pointless refusal to master the art of précis, which would allow all angles to be covered in probably a fifth of the space used up just to cover some of them.Nishidani (talk) 13:56, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Independent Jewish Voices, the Jewish Socialists' Group and Jewish Voice for Peace[edit]

The previous RfC appears to show a mixed outcome where for part of the text there may be potential consensus and part has no consensus. I suggest a modified version sourced from RS with objected text removed as per the advice from ANI. There were no arguments on the RfC that the Morning Star isn't a reliable source and there's an RfC which confirms that it is. RevertBob (talk) 20:42, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

This is disruptive, and should be speedy closed. The prior RfC (which did not close with a "mixed outcome"), on the same WP:FRINGE content, was closed on 8 Feb 2019. Relaunching a RfC on the same issue a month later is not how we do things here. Changing the cited source tk the UK's only communist pro-Corbyn newspaper does not change the situation here.Icewhiz (talk) 20:51, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

  • Oppose. WP:UNDUE weight to fringe groups. The joint Jewish newspaper editorial was covered internationally being major news. The response by these fringe groups was limited to Facebook. Furthermore, the cited sources from the fringe Morning Star do not support the content. One source is JVP's open letter which supports JVP (but is not actual reporting - this is akin to a letter to the editor). The second source mainly covers the joint editorial and mentions that "Mr Rosenberg, a longstanding Corbyn ally, posted on Facebook accusing the papers..." - it frames this as a Facebook stmt by Rosenberg - not JSG. As for IJV - they are missing in action. So - fails WP:V, and is clearly WP:UNDUE promotion of fringe views.Icewhiz (talk) 21:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Include – Content trimmed down to include one sentence sourced from the WP:RS (which is determined by accurate reporting and fact-checking not political bias) Morning Star source. As per WP:NPOV, this is relevant content and an alternative viewpoint form other Jews and both sides of the Jewish community should be represented. RevertBob (talk) 21:23, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Comment. Jewish News has a circulation of 24,518, the |Morning Star 10,000. Given the overall newspaper reading population, both are 'fringe', and in my view, both are acceptable, because they represents vocal constituencies or important traditional communities. Nishidani (talk) 21:29, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Reply You really need consider the target demographic of both newspapers. Jewish News is bought by 8.5% of the UK Jewish population. That's large by any measure. The Morning Star's target demographic is what? Labour voters (12.878,460 last GE)? Trades Unionists (about 6.2 million)? Catfish Jim and the soapdish 11:25, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
If we used that logic, we would void most of the page, since the statistics are that 0.1% of the Labour membership has been accused of making antisemitic remarks, while 85% of the Jewish constituency is convinced that 'Anti-Semitism is rife' within the party. The former emerges from a simple statistical measure of who of the 600,000 people have been reported to the party. The latter is a perception. Within the Labour Party, Stephen Sedley argues,

“an undeclared war is going on inside the party, with pro-Israeli groups such as the Jewish Labour Movement seeking to drive out pro-Palestinian groups like the Jewish Voice for Labour by stigmatising them, and Corbyn with them, as anti-Semitic,”

Within Wikipedia, mirroring this, this rift is repeated. Some editors showcase the newspaper war hostile to Corbyn and his party, others note the extraordinary incongruity between the obsessively repeated innuendoes, and the statistical reality. The former seek to elide Jewish Voice for Labour, the latter defend its use, since the idea that there is only one statistically significant, uh 'Jewish perspective' on how Labour goyim view Jews' is a POV-push to use policy to create an imbalance and cog the dice.Nishidani (talk) 16:20, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
@Nishidani: please strike "cog the dice". While I'm uncertain of the penalties for dice cogging in Roman barracks, the similar card sharking leads to American Remains or the inevitable in any Western scene.Icewhiz (talk) 16:43, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
I have certainly emended my horrendous spelling mistake for 'view'. All that needs to be added is that the penalties for using cogged dice ( perhaps nequior talus Martial Book IV.XIV 9) in Roman barracks are not known, since that is too specific. Roman courts did not consider plaintiffs’ claims for redress on gaming rorts, of which coggng the dice was one. I would guess, actionable. And Wikipedia in its wisdom follows the same principle.Nishidani (talk) 17:48, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose as per WP:FALSEBALANCE and WP:UNDUE. Firstly, addressing the inclusion of Jewish Voice for Peace... They are a US based anti-zionist activist group and, while I agree entirely with their mission statement, the relevance of their opinion on a joint editorial by UK newspapers about a UK politician is extremely questionable. Of the other two groups, Independent Jewish Voices are more credible by a long way and I would not question their inclusion. Jewish Socialists' Group on the other hand is a fringe group and their inclusion is unwarranted. It isn't really up for debate that the three UK papers represent a majority view of UK Jews on this topic. If we are to include a counterpoint to it, a single short sentence covering IJV's letter would be as much as could be reasonably justified. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 08:04, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Include What the RFC said "There is no consensus to include this information." So it is true there was no consensus. It had been long standing content that had just as much been the subject of regular talk page discussion as it is now.Slatersteven (talk) 08:36, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Include per Slatersteven. I might add that the repeated use of the 'fringe' argument is bizarre.
British Jews constitute 4.44%0.5% of GB's population, i.e. by this logic they are 'fringe'
Of British Jews, the percentage who are Hasidim varies (1996/1997) from 3-4 to 10%, or if you look at the school-age population,36% are taught in ultra-orthodox schools.
So, British Jews are percentually fringe in terms of the whole population, as ultra-orthodox Jews are fringe (under 10%) within British Jewry, and the 15% of British Jews who do not think Corbyn or his party anti-Semitic are also 'fringe' compared to the near consensus of the 85%. Not for that should we start saying that the views of 85% of 4.4 0.5 percent on a major British political party deserves hectically minute coverage untarnished by reminders that notable fringes Jewish-political, or Jewish religious, dissent from that majority. If we are to observe WP:NPOV, w are obliged to cover all significant views within the affected ethnic community, governing the reportage only in terms of WP:Undue. The Corbyn bashers there are due more coverage, but those who rebuff that community's overall attitude deserve proportionate coverage without suppression of their disagreement as 'fringe'.Nishidani (talk) 16:58, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Nishidani, I have no idea where you get the statistic that "British Jews constitute 4.44% of GB's population". On the latest census, we were actually rather less than 0.5%, and you are incorrect by an order of magnitude. I suspect that a decimal point slipped in your calculation. RolandR (talk) 13:30, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Correct, as usual. My apologies. Don't know what happened, but hope your hypothesis, which suggests digital incompetence rather than senile hyperbole, explains it. Either that or somehow the figure popped up from some memory that at the end of WW2, 4.4% of the British Parliament consisted of members of Jewish background. My apologies. Roland (the lower figure of course only strengthens one's admiration for the extraordinary achievements of such a minority, as per Hobsbawm,Interesting Times p.25.'if there is any justification for the claim that 0.25% of the global population in the year 2000 which constitute the tribe into which I was born are a 'chosen' or special people, . . it rests on its quite disproportionate and remarkable contribution to humanity.' The hysteria documented here distresses people like me -too much to be genuinely proud of to allow it to be trashed effortlessly by imitating the curse of Western modernity, ethnonationalist haranguing. Regards Nishidani (talk) 14:03, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Currently, about 3.5% of MPs are Jewish. The highest figure seems to have been after the 1966 election, when about 6.5% of MPs were Jewish - most of them Labour, as it happens. I am not going to comment on the hysteria; living at the centre of this means that I have a much sharper perspective, much of it informed by experience rather than by documents, and thus not eligible for inclusion in Wikipedia. RolandR (talk) 21:44, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Well that was interesting. I have no idea why you started spouting about "ultra-orthodoxy" (you know that's viewed as an insult by the people you're describing?). I also have no idea why you started spouting about the hasidim. It's fairly clear though that you think the two are one and the same. Maybe to you they are? The 85% does not include "ultra-orthodox" jews, whether they're hasidim or otherwise. They are generally detached from politics and will have no opinion on Jeremy Corbyn. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:29, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
If you cannot construe what an interlocutor states, in context, don't presume to answer. Nishidani (talk) 20:37, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice. "Interlocutor" huh? lol Catfish Jim and the soapdish 20:48, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose There are some reasons for inclusion. WP:FRINGE is not relevant outwith matters using the scientific method. Wikipedia:What FRINGE is not In the topic subset of Jews in the Labour Party, the leftwing Jewish groups collectively are notable, based on the coverage they get in the media. They also speak on the issue for much of the LP membership, who have twice elected JC as leader, so I think they can be quoted where there is a RS.The political stance and circulation size of Morning Star are not barriers to it being treated as a reliable source. It covers a range of left wing political issues and views. Given that the national press are all anti-Corbyn, it is important that we allow the voice of the LP and its supporters to emerge. Regarding this particular instance: I think JVP should be excluded, as they are too distant from the issue. I think IJV should be excluded if there is not a RS (I did not see one). JSG is small, it is not stated what the role of David Rosenberg is within the organization or that he is speaking on behalf of the organization, or the context of his words. So he is only speaking for himself, which is not enough. So, I think he should be excluded too. Jontel (talk) 18:48, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Include. As these groups represent the views of many Jewish Labour Party members their views are notable on the subject of the article. G-13114 (talk) 12:07, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose (Summoned by bot) I agree with the UNDUE and false balance arguments made above. Coretheapple (talk) 14:25, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Leaning INCLUDE. Happy the guidance of ANI is being followed, and think there is some prominence and need to cover more POV. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 03:50, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose (Summoned by bot) Addition of another fringe source doesn't change much still WP:UNDUE and violation of WP:NPOV --Shrike (talk) 15:59, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Comment. Please read the page, and this section, before voting. This is not about a 'fringe source'. It is about whether to include content or not. A movement is not a source, be it fringe or otherwise. The newspapers reporting the movement's actions constitute the sources, which can be mainstream or fringe. So, since you didn't understand this, it woulde be good to read the section, grasp what it's about and then 'revote'. Nishidani (talk) 14:22, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Include: Though the 'alternative' viewpoint may not be covered to any great extent in the newspapers, much of whose reporting is far from factual, in order to achieve neutrality, it should be treated appropriately in the article, which means giving it at least some coverage, however brief.     ←   ZScarpia   21:34, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose I'm not convinced on the FRINGE opposition (I think JSG and IJV both represent valid viewpoints in this debate, even though they are clearly a minority within a minority), but more importantly this fails verifiability. Neither link mentions IJV. JSG is not supported by the first link, which is about Rosenberg personally not the Group. JVP is shown more clearly, but the source is the open letter itself so primary, which is far from ideal (and suggests less noteworthy). Note JVP is a US group. So, if the text were to follow the sources it'd need to say something like "One prominent Jewish socialist, Dave Rosenberg, and the American left-wing organisation, Jewish Voice for Peace, condemned the editorial, with Mr Rosenberg describing the editorial as "concocted hysteria". which doesn't seem worth including. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:38, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

WP:SYNTH[edit]

(Undid revision 888834366 by Nishidani (talk) appears to be SYNTH, the government is following other governents (sic) in not voting under biased UNHRC agenda items and then the article says that it appears that it might be because the Conservatrives (sic) want to align themselves with the Jews following the Labour and antisemitism issue, but the way it was worded now is not acceptable

WP:SYNTH reads:

(a)Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. (b) Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research performed by an editor here.[i] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article.

You clearly have not either read or remembered the policy you cite to justify the excision. For in my paraphrase (a) only one source is used, (b) summarizing two consecutive paragraphs, , ,not different parts of a source.

The UK will oppose motions criticising rights abuses in the West Bank and Gaza that are brought to the UN’s human rights council under a special procedure dedicated to Israel’s behaviour in the occupied territories, Jeremy Hunt has said.The move is likely to delight the Trump administration, which quit the human rights council in June last year, citing its approach to Israel. It also appears aimed at cementing the Conservative party’s relations with pro-Israel sections of the British Jewish community at a time when the Labour party is mired in criticism of its handling of antisemitism complaints.

I paraphrased these two consecutive paragraphs thus:-

In a move coinciding with criticism of Labour's handling of antisemitism complaints, the Conservative Party, in a decision seen as consolidating links with pro-Israeli groups in Britain’s Jewish community, announced it would oppose motions critical of Israel’s human rights abuses in the occupied Palestinian territories when they are raised at the United Nations Human Rights Council.[1]

There is no synthesis, only a close paraphrase. I'd like an explanation therefore. There is no need to waffle on about the rest of the article or your opinion that this or that is 'biased'. This is a question of correct policy comprehension.Nishidani (talk) 20:24, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

The UK has decided how to vote in the UNHRC, not the Conservative party. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:43, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Pettifogging. (a)The UK government policy reflects a decision by the ruling Conservative Party. (b) if that is your objection it is not WP:SYNTH to identify the policy Britain will adopt as one determined by the actual Conservative Party government (c)
There is a device called tweaking if an editor is dissatisfied with an edit's source compliance. In this case it would consist in adjusting 'announced it would' to 'announced Britain would'. Nah, that would allow the obvious fact to stay on page, of course, hence the false edit summary justifying deletion. Sorry, but your reply says nothing about WP:SYNTH, which is the reason you have for expunging the text. So, explain where the synthesis is, please. Nishidani (talk) 20:53, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Not sure where Nishidani gets the justification to say "in a decision seen as consolidating links with pro-Israeli groups in Britain’s Jewish community" outside of WP:SYNTH of course. Alssa1 (talk) 21:19, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
I think it's a bit strong to include it in this article, seeing as the link to antisemitism in Labour is given only a passing mention in the source. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 21:44, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
I analysed the claim, cited the relevant policy, illustrated the incoherence of the assertion by comparing source and paraphrase. No reply faces the evidence that claimi ng synthesis is errant, a false claim. Either one can, or in lieu of waffling, one stays mum. For the record, SJ is a habitual reverter of my edits, and advised me once not to touch articles regarding Jews.Nishidani (talk) 08:12, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
It was an interesting read but it's really nothing to do with this article. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 10:02, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Indeed, rather off topic to antisemitism in Labour. Also misrepresents the source that sees UK Jews (and by extenssion woes in Labour) as "also appearing" to be a reason.Icewhiz (talk) 10:09, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Its not synth, it does have an indirect link to antisemitism in the Labour party, however it is mostly about policy concerning the situation between Israel and Palestine. So I am not sure where I stand atm. ~ BOD ~ TALK 11:57, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Indeed', nothing, Icewhiz. The original removal was based on an egregiously false edit summary or pretext. To shift the goalposts by ignoring this fact, then to justify the deletion with other vague opinions, is a show of poor editing practice, more whack-a-mole that craft. This is relevant because the accusation of anti-Semitism is embedded in a political struggle over British policy regarding Israel and the systematic documentation of every picayune nuance in the former, while ignoring the political ramifications (here remarked on), is tantamount to playing politics with the page. I've added Antony Lerman, The Labour Party, 'institutional antisemitism’ and irresponsible politics,' Open Democracy 21 March 2019 to the page. It provides a solid analytic overview and comes from someone with expertise on both anti-Semitism and British politics. It should be used broadly throughout this article, replacing the newspaper sourcing where possible.Nishidani (talk) 21:16, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Liking Lerman is not a reason to include what is essentially a blog post (or do we qualify opendemocracy as an oped?). UNDUE.Icewhiz (talk) 04:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Antony Lerman is a prominent published expert on anti-Semitism. openDemocracy is not a blog.WP:Undue should not be used as camouflage for WP:IDONOTLIKEIT. Nishidani (talk) 08:47, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Lerman is a retiree who mainly writes in the comment section of the Guardian and a bit in openDemocracy - he hasn't published in an academic setting in the past decade or so (per google scholar search). openDemocracy is a website, opinions posted there - are opinions - they do no undergo editorial controls. Icewhiz (talk) 09:06, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
That's a new one. Where in wikipedia is it stated that retired scholars cannot be cited if they write an essay on a topic they have specialized competence in after they go on the pension?!!!!!!!!!! (He certainly does not consider himself retired from writing) All organizations have websites, and 99% of our material comes from think tank, newspaper, policy websites. openDemocracy has an editor, please note, charged with overseeing contributions. Take it to RSN, if you really believe you have a case. All we have here is unfocused assertions.Nishidani (talk) 10:33, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
He hasn't been active academically in recent years. I don't see opendemocracy receiving favorable coverage as a source at RSN. Not much discussed, but: this isn't favorable. opendemocracy itself is an advocacy organization - "We help those fighting for their rights gain the agency to make their case and to inspire action.". At their moment their front page item claims "Brexit chaos could trigger a general election at any moment. Whenever it happens, there will be dozens of MPs who get elected illegally.". Icewhiz (talk) 10:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Take this to dispute resolution now.Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, take it to the RSN board. Your link does not lead to any such conclusion. All NGOs are 'advocacy' organizations (for human rights for example, or for ignoring them), but this does not translate into wiki practice of challenging them simply because they have a point of view. NPOV is balancing point of views, not eliding one of two. Nishidani (talk) 10:56, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
It was aimed at the pair of you.Slatersteven (talk) 10:59, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

On the inclusion of the Conservative Party item: This probably isn't synthesis (though I can see why it looks like it, because it is talking about an apparent coincidence) but it is really not noteworthy enough to be in this article, as the topic of the article appears in passing in half a sentence of the source. On Lerman: I have a lot of respect for Lerman, but this page is filled with opinion pieces chosen fairly arbitrarily and we really don't need any more. Lerman is already quoted at length in the article at various points, and his opinion piece is not the best source for factual claims e.g. about the Chakrabarti report which was widely covered in news sources. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:55, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Ineptness[edit]

(*(1) this restores a phrasing I removed while making a large rewrite and expansion with far more detail. You kept that expansion but restored in another lead paragraph the defective and misleading phrase, overegging the pud. since the lead now repeats itself. That is incompetent,Nishidani (talk) 10:42, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

  • (2) Lerman 2019 was removed, on the unheralded pretext that wiki can't cite a retired scholar. Worse, the pretext also added that he might be used, if attributed, but a quotation from an official report is not Lerman's opinion. Worser, Lerman has been stable on the page for an article he wrote in 2018, which you didn't challenge. So you are being totally incoherent. You cannot challenge an article by a scholar because he was in your view 'retired' in 2019, while leaving in an article from 2018 by the same scholar when, if you were correct, he was retired. This kind of random removalism hits the bottom of absurdity. Nishidani (talk) 10:52, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Either take this to ANI or stop commenting on users.Slatersteven (talk) 10:54, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

There is nothing reportable in Icewhiz's position. It is just in these two cases, poor editing practice. That the two edits were incoherent, and for that reason 'incompetent', can be noted, and are not personal attacks. Nishidani (talk) 10:58, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
I take your point on (1) - you did indeed paraphrase this elsewhere, therefore - I self reverted. As for (2) - Lerman from 2018 is used for an attributed quote - Lerman is a RS for Lerman's own words (he may be UNDUE - but that's a separate matter). Lerman, on opendemocracy, is not a RS on other BLPs in an unattributed fashion. Constructively, I suggest you replace Lerman2019 in the lede with the BBC - 2018 or 2016 - if you want to keep this particular direct quote. Icewhiz (talk) 11:27, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
I appreciate the revert on that. You still haven't shown what I asked for. Someone who has a scholarly record on anti-Semitism, who headed the Institute for Jewish Policy Research, worked for the Runnymede Commission on Antisemitism etc., with 30 years of writing, within Jewish or other think tanks, about anti-Semitism, and reliably published on the topic consistently, is self-evidently RS. Look, those credentials are so strong, and his position as an authority on the topic secured by the think tanks employing him for decades, that objections are extreme. If you make the exceptional claim, with no wiki policy writ to back it, that he is on the pension and therefore ratshit, unless used with attribution, I suggest you argue that at the RSN board. openDemocracy is used elsewhere on this page, and no one has thought that odd. Why it should somehow transmogrify into non-RS because Lerman also wrote a piece for it, is inexplicable. WP:BLP, again , has nothing to do with this. The words quoted are from the Chakrabarti Report in any case do not require attribution to the author of the source where it is cited. I'll take it to RS, but really, if you make obviously strange claims without policy basis, you should be the one to address the appropriate noticeboard.Nishidani (talk) 13:43, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
See here. Let's be patient, not reargue what we've said here, but wait for independent third party assessments.Nishidani (talk) 14:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
I clarified my challenge there - I suggest you don't respond (and neither shall I) - and we'll see what outside input says. My issue with Lerman on opendemocracy is first and foremost that I don't see opendemocracy as a WP:RS for facts. Had Lerman been published in mainstream news media (not as an oped) or (better) in an academic journal - then I would not have contested that. Icewhiz (talk) 14:19, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
What's Arutz Sheva doing here then? Nishidani (talk) 15:09, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Unless I'm missing something, I currently see it in the article being used for an attributed opinion from an expert in the field of antisemitism - not as a sole source for fact. WP:RSOPINION is a generally easy bar to meet (e.g. - I'm not challenged Lerman 2018 on RS grounds - as the source is probably reliable for Lerman's own opinions (which means we can trust them not to type something up and post it under the byline of an author who didn't write it)).Icewhiz (talk) 15:19, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Well, frankly, you are missing quite a bit. Manfred Gerstenfeld is used twice, once unattributed (by not mentioning him as the author)
Note 115 Manfred Gerstenfeld Muslims play a prominent role among Labour party anti-Semitic inciters, Arutz Sheva, 8 May 2016
Note 271 (Manfred Gerstenfeld) "Reactions to anti-Semitism in the British Labour Party". Arutz Sheva. 29 May 2016.

Gerstenfeld is controversial in Norway, after claiming that "Norway is a nation of anti-semites" and that "Norwegians are a barbaric and unintelligent people", and accusing King Harald, Crown Prince Haakon, former Foreign Minister and now Labour leader Jonas Gahr Støre and former Prime Minister and now NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg of being "anti-semites". Gerstenfeld has published books about his views on Norway and written several newspaper articles that have been controversial.[4][5] Norway's largest newspaper and main newspaper of record, the conservative daily Aftenposten, has described Gerstenfeld in an editorial as a far-right extremist and fanatic.[6] Imre Hercz, a Norwegian doctor and well-known member of Norway's Jewish community, has condemned Gerstenfeld's "propaganda war against Norway".[4] According to expert on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict Hilde Henriksen Waage, Gerstenfeld is a central figure in a smear campaign against Norway on the Israeli far-right.[7] Odd-Bjørn Fure, Norway's main anti-semitism expert and founding director of the Center for Studies of the Holocaust and Religious Minorities, has said that Gerstenfeld "is not worth arguing against. I prefer to deal with serious people. We do not take this person seriously

I.e. You are justifying the retention of two articles by a man who has zero academic qualifications in the field he writes about and who is highly controversial, known for racist and bigoted remarks, writing for a fringe Israeli settler newspaper to descant on the British Labour Party (when his articles quote mainly British newspapers we already have access to. That's fine.
But you reject an accomplished British scholar specializing in anti-Semitism,-about whom not a jot or tittle of suspicions about intellectual integrity exists, as opposed to Gerstenfeld- writing in openDemocracy. If you can't see the extreme subjectivity of what is dictating your choice between what is acceptable per RS and what is not, no amount of argumentation will persuade you that the above contrast is comically unbalanced, when not sheer chutzpah.Nishidani (talk) 16:20, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Gerstenfeld should be used attributed - if he's not - he should be. However, he is a noted scholar on antisemitism and the Holocaust. As for being "controversial in Norway" - well - considering he has written on the widespread antisemitism in Norway that's not surprising - all you've got there is various Norwegians saying Norway is not antisemitic. Considering the Norwegian AG just recently ruled that saying "Fucking Jews" is not antisemitic (but rather a "criticism of Israel" - even though Israel was not even mentioned)[9][10] - Norwegian opinion really carries very little weight on the matter. Icewhiz (talk) 16:33, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Anyone without credentials (he has no scholarly credentials in this area) and who has made inflammatory racist statements against an entire people as anti-Semitic ("Norway is a nation of anti-semites" and that "Norwegians are a barbaric and unintelligent people", ) is automatically ruled out from being a reliable source, especialòly on a sensitive topic dealing with another nation and the same topic. Period. You shouldn't be pushing this. It is obvious.Nishidani (talk) 16:44, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
You'd better provide a source for that quotation - copying from a wiki article does not excuse a BLP violation. Gerstenfeld has definitely criticized Norway for widespread antisemitism there - your personal opinion (or Norwegian popular media) on the issue matters little. Here's an opinion with some weight: "Author Manfred Gerstenfeld, who is recognized by many as one of the leading scholarly authorities today on anti-Semitism and on post-Holocaust studies[11]. Icewhiz (talk) 17:15, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Sure, the ipsissima verba from his own website here,'This has made Norway, in my view, the most anti-Semitic country in the West.' Having declared that, on another page on his website, while claiming the press misreports him, he asserts that 'This text also quoted me falsely as having said that Norway was “the most anti-Semitic nation in Europe.” .' Since he contradicts himself about what he said, his defense on anything he says is improbable.
Anyone who says 'I deny I said that' and then 'follows it up with 'Yes, I said precisely that' withourt using a confessional mode or irony is obviously so totally unfocused that he can't be treated seriously, in the world, let alone on an encyclopedia.]
Whoever wrote, whether it be Anshel Pfeffer, a Haaretz journo, or someone else, that Gerstenfeld is 'one of the leading scholars today on anti-Semitism and on post-Holocaust studies' is familiar with neither of those scholarly disciplines, since they don't cite him. The book you refer this opinion to is edited by three people teaching at the West Bank's controversial settler institution, Ariel University, and is published by IGI Global, which is a vanity or predatory publisher or rogue book publisher.Nishidani (talk) 20:37, 26 March 2019 (UTC)


Surely it is better to source factial info on Chakrabarti from news sources rather than op eds, even if the op eds are written by serious people like Seymour and Lerman? Re Gerstenfeld: I support his removal, along with all of the other opinion pieces not widely quoted in secondary sources.

Referencing[edit]

This article has Citations, Sources, a Bibliography, and Further reading. Can't we streamline this? The most common practice now is just Refs and Further reading. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:02, 3 April 2019 (UTC)