Talk:Apache HTTP Server

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Suggested changes from ITEC544 class (USC)[edit]

BY: Michael Quinzi and Michael Schwarzbauer, 11/20/12

The Apache HTTP Server Project is a collaborative software development effort aimed at creating a robust, commercial-grade, featureful, and freely-available source code implementation of an HTTP (Web) server. The project is jointly managed by a group of volunteers located around the world, using the Internet and the Web to communicate, plan, and develop the server and its related documentation. This project is part of the Apache Software Foundation. In addition, hundreds of users have contributed ideas, code, and documentation to the project. This file is intended to briefly describe the history of the Apache HTTP Server and recognize the many contributors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abhishek9923 (talkcontribs) 07:02, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

1. The article should mention something about the Apache HTTP Server Project. We found numerous sources discussing this project. From these sources, we gathered that “The Apache HTTP Server Project is a collaborative software development effort aimed at creating a robust, commercial-grade, feature-rich and freely-available source code implementation of an HTTP (Web) server. The project is jointly managed by a group of volunteers located around the world, using the Internet and the Web to communicate, plan, and develop the server and its related documentation. This project is part of the Apache Software Foundation. In addition, hundreds of users have contributed ideas, code, and documentation to the project.” We felt that this was interesting and mentioned enough, that it should be included in the article.

Source: Netcraft. (n.d.). About the Apache HTTP Server Project - The Apache HTTP Server Project. Welcome! - The Apache HTTP Server Project. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html Backup sources: The Apache HTTP Server Open Source Project on Ohloh. (n.d.). Ohloh, the open source network. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://www.ohloh.net/p/apache Chapter 4. The Apache HTTP Server. (n.d.). Fedora Documentation. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/13/html/Managing_Confined_Services/chap-Managing_Confined_Services-The_Apache_HTTP_Server.html

2. The article should mention that Apache is generally recognized as the world's most popular Web server. This was the consensus amongst most of our resources, so it should definitely be mentioned on the page, because we felt that it is a key identifier for their company. Articles we have read mention that the Apache Web Server “represents an open-source web server platform lying in the basis of most of the websites we see today on the World Wide Web.”

Source: Information about the Apache Web Server. (n.d.). Web Hosting Services, VPS Servers and Domain Names by NTC Hosting. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://www.ntchosting.com/apache-web-server.html Backup sources: Welcome! - The Apache HTTP Server Project. (n.d.). Welcome! - The Apache HTTP Server Project. Retrieved November 20, 2012, from httpd.apache.org/ Mitchell, B. (n.d.). What Is The Apache Web Server?. Networking - Computer and Wireless Networking Basics - Home Networks Tutorials. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://compnetworking.about.com/cs/webserver Apache Server Definition. (n.d.). Module for hosting (mod_hosting) for apache 2 servers. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://www.modulehosting.com/apache.html

3. The article should put much more emphasis on the fact that the Apache web server is compatible with a multitude of web platforms and operating systems. This is important because it is one the main reasons that it is so popular. It was also common for many of our resources to mention the fact that Apache is a “cross-platform web server.”

Source: Information about the Apache Web Server. (n.d.). Web Hosting Services, VPS Servers and Domain Names by NTC Hosting. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://www.ntchosting.com/apache-web-server.html Backup sources: Netcraft. (n.d.). About the Apache HTTP Server Project - The Apache HTTP Server Project. Welcome! - The Apache HTTP Server Project. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html Mitchell, B. (n.d.). What Is The Apache Web Server?. Networking - Computer and Wireless Networking Basics - Home Networks Tutorials. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://compnetworking.about.com/cs/webserver

4. The article should emphasize that Apache Software is free, and the fact that they promote various free and open source advanced Web technologies, is a key factor in why they have the popularity and success that they do. Several sources mention the idea that “because the source code is freely available, anyone can adapt the server for specific needs, and there is a large public library of Apache add-ons.” It was also mentioned in another article that “The open source software "movement" has received enormous attention in the last several years. It is often characterized as a fundamentally new way to develop software that poses a serious challenge to the commercial software businesses that dominate most software markets today.” Many other sources confirmed this knowledge.

Source: What is Apache Web server? - A Word Definition From the Webopedia Computer Dictionary. (n.d.). Webopedia: Online Computer Dictionary for Computer and Internet Terms and Definitions. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/A/Apache_ Web_server.html Mockus, A., Fielding, R. T., & Herbsleb, J. (n.d.). A Case Study of Open Source Software Development: The Apache Server .ifipwg213.org/system/files/mockusapache.pdf. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from ifipwg213.org/system/files/mockusapache.p Backup sources: Welcome to The Apache Software Foundation!. (n.d.). Welcome to The Apache Software Foundation!. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://www.apache.org/

5. The article should discuss the future of Apache and where they are headed. We felt this was another way to improve the article. We believe that people like to know what a company is trying to accomplish, and that this will give them a better understanding for what Apache is all about. When researching the future plans of Apache, the most common things we found that they are trying to do are:

• Continue to be an "open source" no-charge-for-use HTTP server • Keep up with advances in HTTP protocol and web developments in general • Collect suggestions for fixes/improvements from its users • Respond to needs of large volume providers as well as occasional users

Source: FAQ - Httpd Wiki. (n.d.). FrontPage - General Wiki. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://wiki.apache.org/httpd/FAQ#What_are_t he_future_plans_for_Apache_httpd.3F Backup sources: Netcraft. (n.d.). About the Apache HTTP Server Project - The Apache HTTP Server Project. Welcome! - The Apache HTTP Server Project. Retrieved November 12, 2012, from http://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Panthers8952 (talkcontribs) 15:46, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Performance claims[edit]

From the article:

"It has since evolved to rival (and probably surpass) any other Unix based HTTP server in terms of functionality and speed."

Even though it does not say straight out that Apache is the fastest HTTP server for Unix, one gets that impression. There are other HTTP server projects for Unix with main focus on speed. When I think of Apache I think about its large feature set. Does this sentence ought to be rewritten a bit? --Gosub 13:12, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

I share your perspective. The speed claim is misleading. It depends on the configuration, the operation being performed, details of the build, etc. There are other servers which have better performance when handling static pages, for example. Apache has fine performance, but it is distinguished by its impressive featureset.
I changed the line to:
"It has since evolved to rival other Unix based HTTP servers in terms of functionality and performance."
If we want to claim Apache surpasses something, we need to define what that means and provide obvious proof. However, this really is not the point of the article (in my view) and it seems to stray into NPOV territory. --Vector4F 05:20, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Redirect from Httpd[edit]

Httpd redirects here. why? -- Tarquin 18:32 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)

On linux systems the http server is known as the http daemon (ie resident program). It is usually apache. Hence you would use httpd to start apache, and it is reasonable (though not essential) for that page to redirect here. Hope that helps. --Mat-C 03:13, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Criticism for lack of GUI tools[edit]

I've removed "has been criticized for its lack of GUI tools to aid in its configuration" as several GUIs are now available, of which some are listed at http://gui.apache.org/. Considering that some of these GUIs are most excellent and useable software, and that if you add to this list all the ISP management software such as 42go, Apache could be considered to be very well supported GUI wise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karderio (talkcontribs) 15:10, January 16, 2005

sorry: The link to the apache GUIs is not working. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.76.61.103 (talkcontribs) 13:30, September 9, 2005

New format of article[edit]

I have organized the article into simple sections, which I derived entirely from the existing content. I believe each of these can be modified and expanded. Specifically, I want to take a crack at adding more information on modules, the ways in which Apache is commonly used (including popular combos like Apache/Tomcat), and a reworking of the history section. Commentary on these changes is welcome. Vector4F 03:59, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

SVN[edit]

There is already a link to the SVN (subversion) repository in the external links however would it be good to add the "category:Projects using Subversion" to help add a bit more interlinking and promote the increased use of SVN over CVS for version control in large and successful projects?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Polymorp (talkcontribs) 23:52, July 19, 2005

Licensing[edit]

I vaguely remember hearing about some sort of licensing dispute- doesn't OpenBSD maintain its own fork, or something? --129.21.121.38 22:01, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Kinda, they don't call it a fork, or else they'd get in trouble. It's basically a fork though. It's got security patches in there, but no feature development beyond the chroot they use. 74.13.60.113 23:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

On Portal:Free software, Apache is now the featured article[edit]

Every week or so there is a new featured article on Portal:Free_Software. The previous feature was OpenBSD. Just FYI. Gronky 15:19, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

History of the name "Apache"[edit]

A quick check on The Wayback Machine shows that as at 1997-04-15T05:40:31 the Apache website's Info page stated that the name of the project was chosen because "The Apache group was formed around a number of people who provided patch files that had been written for NCSA httpd 1.3. The result after combining them was A PAtCHy server." I remember reading this on the website earlier as well (around 1995 / 1996). See http://web.archive.org/web/19970415054031/www.apache.org/info.html.

Doesn't this show that this was more than just "widespread interpretation", but was in fact the official source of the name at the time?

It's getting hard to re-write history what with everything being logged these days :) - Bren Zen

http://www.apacheweek.com/issues/96-04-04 Of course it was the official version. He came clean in 2007. Every pre-2000 source agrees that it was "A PAtCHy" server. If they want to rededicate it that is one thing, but re-writing history is not Wikipedia's role (and generally distasteful). Primacy matters for sources and the accepted source should be the first published source by the authoritative author: http://web.archive.org/web/19961028122409/www.apache.org/docs/FAQ.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.28.74 (talk) 08:32, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

A 2000 interview by Linux Magazine http://web.archive.org/web/20000711011824/http://www.linux-mag.com/2000-04/behlendorf_02.html quotes Brian Behlendorf as saying: The name literally came out of the blue. I wish I could say that it was something fantastic, but it was out of the blue. I put it on a page and then a few months later when this project started, I pointed people to this page and said: "Hey, what do you think of that idea?" ... Someone said they liked the name and that it was a really good pun. And I was like, "A pun? What do you mean?" He said, "Well, we're building a server out of a bunch of software patches, right? So it's a patchy Web server." I went, "Oh, all right." ... When I thought of the name, no. It just sort of connoted: "Take no prisoners. Be kind of aggressive and kick some ass." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.252.39.192 (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
I've integrated this into the article. - furrykef (Talk at me) 11:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
I've rewritten this somewhat. Hopefully it now presents the historical evolution of the name in a suitably NPOV.119.224.17.35 (talk) 13:49, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Licensing Quotation[edit]

I found the ciation needed for the big quotation under "License" The quote comes from Free Software Foundation comments page http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/index_html and was posted on the 18th of Feb 2004 according to the Apache Software Foundation http://www.apache.org/licenses/GPL-compatibility.html If somebody could add the citation and remove the tag that would be great, since I don't know how to do it + don't have the time to figure out at the moment. --Davidkazuhiro 22:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Competition[edit]

Really though, can it be said that sambar server is the "main competitor" to Apache? I just noticed this update and from the looks of it, it's been done by someone who's trying to push Sambar. I didn't want to change the article without checking with some of the fellow contributors. Nageeb 06:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

that and it conflicts with the statement in the usage section about IIS Cheezl 05:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

When first released, Apache was the only viable free/open source alternative to the Netscape Communications Corporation web server

when apache was first released, both NCSA and CERN had free, open source servers available, the CERN server being the very first ever released, in fact - Netscape was the first commercial server, yes, but apache started off as an NCSA clone. m3tainfo 16:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It still seems strange that this article starts off by asserting that Apache was the first viable competitor to the NCC web server. Did Netscape's web server ever have numerical dominance over NCSA/Apache? Or is this assertion meant as a specific reference to Apache's support of SSL? That's the biggest technical thing that Netscape's server had over the open-source competition back in the day. Jonabbey (talk) 23:38, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

.htaccess[edit]

There used to be a kickass page on .htaccess on wikipedia. Now .htaccess redirects to Apache HTTP Server.

While .htaccess might be a topic too technical for an encylopedia, the content that was on the .htaccess page was great and should be stored somewhere - perhaps Wikibooks.

That said, does anyone know what actually happened the the .htaccess page? Was it moved to Wikibooks? Or was it simply deleted? If it was deleted, that would be a real shame - it was a great article.

Thanks guys,

--Kraetos 21:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

You can view the "old" wikipedia htaccess page here, where the old version was thoughtfully posted for posterity.

I have started creating the "new" draft of the wikipedia htaccess page here

Produke 07:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The "new draft" was a copyright violation from Apache's documentation, which is not licensed under the GFDL. I removed it. Not to mention that Apache configuration documentation is not appropriate for an encyclopedia. -- intgr 08:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I knew it was pretty bad.. I just wanted to get the thing started asap because there are so many sites out there that still link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Htaccess so something would be better than broken I think.

I see your point about encyclopedic info, so would it be better to talk about capabilities? Thats what I was initially trying to do. Produke 23:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I think apache server isn't worth a quarter it hijacked my internet explorer and I can't seem to get it off my computer —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.44.195.214 (talkcontribs) 16:09, 2007 April 2.

No real information[edit]

This article offers no real information for visitors to understand how the Apache software works and should be used. It's all very well offering a history article, but visitors wanting to learn how to use the system, even the very basics, will find this article of no use.

Before you say 'why don't I submit something', I have attempted to add additional content, external links and so fourth to valid and useful information, but everything is removed!

It's time to clarify, what is the purpose of this article? If it is a history of the Apache web server, name it accordingly, if I search for .htaccess, I want to find out how to use .htaccess and what it is for, I do not want to be told the history of the software. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.130.204.202 (talkcontribs).

If your adding things and people are removing them, post here what you want to add, and let it be discussed. Reedy Boy 13:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia not a tutorial site. There are tons of tutorials on .htaccess on the web. Even Apache.org's own manuals. If this popped up in your google search and you were looking for a tutorial, too bad. There are probably a billion more options to choose from on your google search :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.178.225 (talk) 23:40, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

i agree wiki-bleple nothing usefull in this art. I lloking for info about 64-bit distro nothing about any distro copmare to other. The apache are in wiki reservation or what ? ip 10.2007

there is also nothing about internal structure of this software, databases engines, technicla limitations etc?

Internal structure or technical limitations? I'd say that's a good addition, but dunno if anyone has ever taken Apache to its limits :D. I'm not even sure whether Apache itself has any internal bottlenecks, and limitations arising are not purely because of the OS's TCP stack implementation or hardware bottlenecks. Database engines? That's related to PHP or Perl or w/e server side scripting language implementation's ability to communicate with a DB. Apache has little to do with that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.225.178.225 (talk) 19:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Market share[edit]

"since March 2006 however [Apache] has experienced a steady decline of its market share ... As of October 2007 Apache served 47.73% of all websites,[2] although there has been a steady spike in percentages recently". These don't go together, at least not without more info. 86.132.141.14 (talk) 19:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and think the blow-by-blow commentary on Apache's month-to-month performance is a little out of place—particularly when the fluctuations are just a few percentage points. As such I modified that part of the paragraph to simply state the current market share percentage. Nfm (talk) 01:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Mobile Web Server (Symbian OS)[edit]

I've started an article about Mobile Web Server (Symbian OS), an Apache HTTP Server port by Nokia to their Symbian OS S60 mobile software platform. Can someone with Apache Server knowledge, please add some technical details regarding the extent of the port.—IncidentFlux [ TalkBack | Contributions ] 11:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The majority of web servers using Apache run [Linux][edit]

Could this be backed up with a reference? (Netcraft confirms it!). "The majority of" is a bit weasel-ey. Is this sentence even relevant in the context of the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.56.53.146 (talk) 01:26, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Readability for nontechnical users[edit]

I want to talk about this article's readability for nontechnical users as this article is still categorized as being. the Features section of the article might be the only thing that is out of reach for normal readers. In addition any other improvements or expansions that could be made to this article with consensus would be great. andyzweb (talk) 03:09, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

The "Use" and "Performance" sections also have rather high jargon-to-content ratios. I'm worried that too little emphasis is put on Apache's position in the market as well. That said, I don't think that the issue is important enough to warrant a tag at this point. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

About apache's origins[edit]

I think that maybe will be nice to tell the beginnings of httpd and then apache. From http://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html maybe we can extract the How Apache Came to Be section. Thanks

Here is the text that I want to add to the article: In February of 1995, the most popular server software on the Web was the public domain HTTP daemon developed by Rob McCool at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. However, development of that httpd had stalled after Rob left NCSA in mid-1994, and many webmasters had developed their own extensions and bug fixes that were in need of a common distribution. A small group of these webmasters, contacted via private e-mail, gathered together for the purpose of coordinating their changes (in the form of "patches"). Brian Behlendorf and Cliff Skolnick put together a mailing list, shared information space, and logins for the core developers on a machine in the California Bay Area, with bandwidth donated by HotWired. By the end of February, eight core contributors formed the foundation of the original Apache Group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.5.113.226 (talk) 17:42, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Poorly written sentence about name[edit]

The article says:

"In addition the website claims that the name's story resulting from the server being A Patchy server (since it was a conjunction of software patches) is popular but incorrect."

In what dialect of English is the above sentence written? Toddcs (talk) 19:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Standard English, Oxford Dictionary with some words missing. Won't be cogney. ;-) --88.130.81.134 (talk) 02:33, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Main design goal[edit]

"Although the main design goal of Apache is not to be the "fastest" web server ...". This is oddly worded. What is the main design goal? Is being the "fastest" web server a secondary design goal or not a goal at all? Nurg (talk) 21:18, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Version history?[edit]

I miss an overview of versions ("version history") in this article. Anyone care to add it? 212.159.240.18 (talk) 13:10, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. It is sorely missing. For instance, web browsers and Android have an elaborate version history. But this article is missing it. Microsoft's similar software, Internet Information Services, has a short, but sweet description of the various versions. --Mortense (talk) 15:01, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

AFD Headsup: Apache Rivet[edit]

I have noticed that wikipedia has some articles on Apache modules and I'm think that some of them may not be non-notable. To test the water about this issue, I have nominated the Apache Rivet article for deletion. Feel free to contribute to the discussion about it here: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Apache_Rivet. tommylommykins (talk) 20:06, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Big AFD headsup! All articles about apache modules, except list of apache modules[edit]

After the deletion of Apache Rivet (See above), I have nominated some similar articles for deletion. See Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Globule_(CDN) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tommylommykins (talkcontribs) 16:38, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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EU-FOSSA software audit underway[edit]

Thought that might be interesting to keep track of. https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/community/eu-fossa/news/eu-fossa-starts-its-code-review-projects 149.172.134.6 (talk) 15:08, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

The lead sentence[edit]

You seem to have accused me of writing something techincally [sic] incorrect and full of gobbledegook. Please explain which bits were technically incorrect, and what you considered gobbledegook. Also explain why you reverted to the previous first sentence, which failed to properly define the topic as required by the manual of style. 109.180.164.3 (talk) 09:23, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Hello.
The English word "accuse" is only reserved for crimes. I believe what you intend to say is "I contested your contribution on the grounds that it was technically incorrect and full gobbledegook". Yes, that's right, because:
  1. There is no such thing as HTTP documents. We have HTML documents and HTTP protocol.
  2. Apache does not serve HTML documents only. It serves CSS, images, videos and literally everything else.
  3. Apache does not serve over HTTP protocol only. Other protocols, including but not limited to HTTPS are also an option.
  4. Apache does not just work over the Internet. A web serve can literally serve any network.
  5. You discarded the fact that Apache is the top world web server? Wikipedia is not censored. Nor is it written from a neutralized point of view. Wikipedia seeks to represent fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
The previous first sentence was excellent. It was a marvelous work of writing. Nevertheless, I take liberty to revert from the worse to the bad. Deterioration is always reverted, which is what you did.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 09:40, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
Wow, well a) you've got very low standards if you think that of how the first sentence was. It read like an advert, not an encyclopaedia article. This is wikipedia, not wikipromotia, so the latter is what we are after. b) I wrote what I intended to say. I guess you are not a native English speaker, because your claims about the language are laughably untrue. c) I discarded the fact that Apache is the top world web server? You added a question mark, I suppose, because you weren't too sure. So what I suggest you do is to look at each revision, yours and mine, and look at the last sentence of the lead section in each case. What was it?
I'll leave your insane claim of censorship for another time, if you're crazy enough to repeat it. 109.180.164.3 (talk) 19:20, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
An advertisement for Apache would look like this:

Apache: A dynamic, solution-driven, standards-compliant state-of-the-art web server that eliminates all the hassles of hosting a web site. Working on myriads of platforms, adopted by dozens of web solution suits, this top-of-the-line free and open-source web server slashes your expenses and forever solves the problem of vendor-lockdown and platform evasion. Never again do you have to beg a developer for a feature; implement and compile it yourself!

Okay, let's see if there is anything else in your last message to address. No, the rest looks insults.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 04:03, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Articles must start by defining the topic. How widely used apache is does not define what apache is. The last sentence of the abstract covers its widespread use. 109.180.164.3 (talk) 05:33, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Alright. I agree. I can correct that. It is a compromise then. —Codename Lisa (talk) 06:46, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I corrected a couple of other problems too:
  • There ware a "the" before "Apache HTTP Server". (See MOS:COMPUTING § Definite article for details.)
  • It was implying that "Apache HTTP Server" runs on a lot of non-Unix-like operating systems. (It runs on a lot of operating systems but all except Windows are Unix-like.)
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 06:55, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Definite article before the title[edit]

Hello

I just now, in accordance to the popular WP:BRD method of resolving disputes, I reverted a contribution by Curly Turkey. There are two reasons for my reversion:

  1. The contribution is in violation of MOS:COMPUTING, which is still in force
  2. The reason the editor had provided for this change was "that was sneaky, Codename Lisa. The Apache Project uses the definite article, as does the rest of the English-speaking world."

There are two problems with this reason:

  • When you edit something to get back at certain editor (and confess to it in edit summary), it is sign that you are engaged in tendentious editing. Why am I denied assumption of good faith for acting in accordance to a MoS that was not even subject of proposal when I made the change? In addition, I had a discussion with another editor about it. (See above.)
  • The English-speaking world in general does not add "the" before software title. Titles like "Skype", "Fiddler", "Mozilla Firefox", "Microsoft Word", "File Explorer", "Google Chrome", "Microsoft Excel", "Microsoft OneNote", "7-Zip File Manager", "Microsoft Access", "Adobe Acrobat", "Adobe Photoshop", "AIMP", "Autodesk AutoCAD", "Babylon", "CCleaner", "CDBurnerXP", "DAEMON Tools", "Duplicate Photo Finder", "Groove Music" and millions more are used without "the" before them.

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 14:28, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

For some reason, you don't seem to want to process the difference between "Google Chrome", which is not a chrome, and "the Apache HTTP Server", which is a(n) HTTP server. There is no blanket rule as to whether software titles get the definite article or not, although I would argue that my explanation as to which do and don't is fairly simple. You're making up English grammar norms that don't exist and you've admitted you don't understand or agree with other uses of the definite article. This amounts to activism. I wouldn't be surprised if next you wanted to remove the "the" at the start of hardware articles. —DIYeditor (talk) 21:46, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
Nah, she's got it right. "Apache HTTP Server", with the capital-S, is the full name of the product (source) and is therefore a proper noun. Use of the word "The" in front of it is therefore not grammatically correct, even if it sounds like it should, given that the proper noun is self-descriptive. The iPhone article doesn't lead with "The" for the same reason, same with macOS Server, same with Liberty Village, etc. etc. Warren -talk- 04:10, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
@Warren: It's not that "iPhone" is a proper noun that is the reason for the article not starting with "the", it's because it's not about a specific product but a general label. Contrast with iPhone 6 which does start with "the". Not to mention the fact that it arguably could be an article about "the iPhone" rather than one about "iPhone", it depends how the sentence is worded and how you are using the term - as a general idea or a specific thing. But that is for hardware, we know that specific models/pieces of hardware/aircraft/cars/firearms/etc. a referred to with "the". The question here is software. macOS Server is not "a server" it is "a server OS", so the name is not descriptive. For names that are descriptive I challenge the authority of a rule that says they should not get a definite article because it sure sounds strange and is inconsistent with most of what I can find on the web. Also no one is arguing that the name of a community name that includes "Village" should be referred to by "the" but that very article includes "the Great Western Railway", so again the question is what the normal form is in this particular domain. I am arguing that it is obvious that the common format in English is to put "the" on the overwhelming majority of descriptive software titles. —DIYeditor (talk) 04:41, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
So your position, at its core, boils down to "Apache HTTP Server requires a 'The' but 'macOS Server' does not because the former is a server but the later is an operating system.... and because the lack of 'The' sounds strange." I see. Hey, you know what else sounds strange to some people? Using "is" instead of "was" for products that are no longer sold -- and I've seen people show rather extraordinary degrees of insistence that "was" is correct. It's not.
Look, I've been editing Wikipedia lead sections for 12 years, literally 75% the entire time Wikipedia has existed, and I've read countless passionate arguments pleading for things to be done in a specific article in a specific arbitrary fashion. What I have never seen is a successful argument in favour of ditching grammatical correctness for one specific article because people commonly refer to the article's subject in a grammatically incorrect way. Wikipedia's use of grammar and language is not driven by sources -- the Manual of Style is our guide, and right there in paragraph 2 it calls for cohesion and consistency. Having "The" in some software product articles but no "The" in others, is neither cohesive or consistent, making it a violation of our own rules. You can have whatever feelings you like about this, but eventually, an editor with a strong understanding of the WP:MOS and a feel for the Wikipedia project as a whole will be along to remove the "The". Warren -talk- 06:46, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
You've made a bold claim. The onus is on you to back it up. Your "feelings" that the definite article is incorrect hold no weight—you need to provide solid evidence. At the English Wikipedia, we write English as native English speakers use it, not as we wish it might be written. Dropping the "the" in "the Apache HTTP Server" is broken English—the evidence (actual usage) supports that claim and shoots down yours. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:32, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
This is not specific to one article, or arbitrary. It would apply to any other software and services that are descriptive and typically, in verifiable use in primary and secondary sources, get the definite article in the same fashion as hardware. Examples include "the Mac App Store", "the Windows SDK", "the .NET Framework" and I'm sure there are others. This is not only in keeping with the publishers' use but the use of most people in the field when they refer to these things. Yes, the Apache HTTP Server gets a "the" because it's a server and macOS Server does not get it because it is not a server. Exactly right. This is standard usage. Wikipedia should reflect grammar that is in use rather than dictate grammar based on unnecessarily uniform MOS guidelines. —DIYeditor (talk) 07:30, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
@Warren: many of our articles don't use the definite article because of the unilateral actions of editors who have a poor grasp of this subject, such as Codename Lisa. I'm surprised you linked to https://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html and didn't bother reading it—the page itself uses the definite article to refer to the software, and nowhere drops the definite article outside of titles (where it's expected to be dropped). Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:28, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Apache's particular way of using English, even to describe themselves, is absolutely not a guide for how we write articles on Wikipedia -- only the WP:MOS does that, and the MOS demands consistency between our articles.
Also, I've already given you one reminder about civility. This is my second and final reminder to you before we graduate to a formal warning on your talk page. If you're having difficulty with talking about Codename Lisa without insulting her, I really strongly recommend saying nothing. Warren -talk- 06:46, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
It's not "Apache's particular way of using English", and there was nothing incivil in the comment you're responding to—please strike that comment, as unfounded accusations of incivility are themselves incivil, as per Wikipedia's civility policy. Also, keep well in mind that the MoS does not innovate in style—it follows established conventions, and cannot dictate what you will. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:32, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
This is headache-inducing. Codename Lisa, if you don't want to speak English the way the English-speaking world speaks it, you shouldn't be editing the English Wikipedia. If you can't understand why "Apache HTTP Server" takes a definite article and "Babylon" doesn't, then perhaps you could pay for some ESL classes. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:47, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
User:Curly Turkey, you're an established editor, so you shouldn't need to be told that suggesting an editor "pay for some ESL classes" is a violation of Wikipedia's WP:CIVILITY policy. Disagreement is fine, but not like that. Warren -talk- 03:58, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Warren: some background: Codename Lisa has been making these tendentious edits for quite some time and is in the middle of a dispute over these things at WP:MOS. After a trip to ANI, they'd agreed to back off from this WP:IDONTHEARTHAT/WP:CIR behaviour. The patience of many editors is worn thin. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:06, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
There's no exception clause in the civility policy. Keep it civil always -- when that gets challenging, back off and find something else to work on. Warren -talk- 04:14, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello, everyone
Before claiming that I "don't want to speak English the way the English-speaking world speaks it", it is important to note that I have already provided 20 examples of how native speakers speak it above, and 10 more in Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style.
My dear colleague DIYeditor has been attempting to derive rule to the effect that if the trailing part of the phrase explains the function of the product, then use of "the" is sanctioned. I am afraid there are counter-examples for that too: "Microsoft Store Online", "Microsoft Security Essentials", "Windows Firewall", "Norton Personal Firewall". None of these use "the" before the title, despite the fact that they are respectively an online store, what's essential for security, firewall and personal firewall.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 07:28, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
You're going around in circles again, Codename Lisa. Your arguments have already been thoroughly refuted by multiple editors at WP:MOS. Please stop repeating them everywhere. If your tactics are going to be attrition, you should keep in mind that people get sanctioned for that sort of thing at WP:ANI. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:35, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello again
Let's not jump to conclusions before a neutral party closes the discussion. There is a reason it is called a dispute: Because you disagree with me. From your view my argument never had any grounds; and my view, yours is so. Let's be civil and discuss the subject matter. You can always start doing so.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 11:16, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Microsoft Store Online is not "a store online" and Microsoft Security Essentials is not "a security essentials". Norton Personal Firewall and Windows Firewall are indeed a counter examples. Of all the ones you've given in the extensive discussions here and at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, only those two are examples where in the common usage in the field and by their own publishers descriptive software titles do not get the definite article. That's great, we should follow the common use. Describe rather than dictate. In the field, most everyone refers to the Apache HTTP Server with a "the". We should follow the use by professionals and the majority of reliable secondary sources. There's no reason to go against the grammar that is in use to satisfy a desire for a consistent MOS. Grammar isn't always 100% consistent, sometimes (often in English) it's a matter of specific cases. Most often descriptive software or service titles do get the definite article. —DIYeditor (talk) 07:47, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Hi again.
I don't see how "Microsoft Store Online" is not a store that is online. And by the testimony of AV-TEST.org, Microsoft Security Essentials is indeed the bare minimum for security. At least, I can respect the fact that you did not refute "Norton Personal Firewall" or "Windows Firewall".
Do you want more examples? How about:
  1. Microsoft Virtual Machine
  2. Kaspersky Firewall
  3. Microsoft Graph
  4. Microsoft Photos
  5. Microsoft Photo Editor
  6. Office Web Components
  7. Microsoft Office Picture Manager
  8. Windows Media Player
  9. Media Player Classic
  10. K-Lite Codec Pack
  11. Batch Document Converter Pro
  12. Foxit PDF Editor
  13. Shadow Copy
  14. Business Process Manager
  15. Process Explorer
  16. Dolphin
  17. Avira Antivirus
Why it is I who is giving you examples? The burden of proof is on the person who makes a statement. Why not you prove yourself for a change?
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 11:16, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
We've proven ourselves. The Apache HTTP Server is referred to almost exclusively—as expected from any native English speaker—with the definite article in English-language sources. Ditto the Mac App Store, etc. You whip this out as if we haven't—that's a textbook case of WP:IDHT, and from the discussion on your talk page, it looks like this disruptive behaviour is landing you right back at ANI. Now watch Warren snivel about "personal remarks" to drive the discussion away from people's disruptive behaviour ... Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 13:14, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
This discussion about the word "The" -- a WP:MOS thing -- is the secondary issue here. WP:CIVILITY is Wikipedia policy and is something that must be adhered to by all contributors if they would like to have a say in the continued development of Wikipedia. You really need to be more thoughtful of how you express yourself. Think of it from this perspective: Anyone who reviews your diffs on this page will see you talking towards other editors about "ESL" and "snivelling" and won't believe you are keeping Wikipedia's core policies in mind. You've been here as long as I have. You can do better than this. Warren -talk- 14:27, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello!
Good to see you finally making a comment on the contribution, CT.
But first, I need a source for "as expected from any native English speaker". Who expects it? Also, how do you even know the nationality of the Apache project members? Finally, I've shown that native speakers don't normally put "the" before software titles. So, this is something else that native speakers do a lot: a mistake. A deviation from the standard practice of native speakers.
Actually, if I were you, I'd leave it to DIYeditor. He is putting up a valiant and noble effort to codify what native speakers do. What do you know? Maybe he succeeds. In that case, I'll be the first one apply the rule from that point on.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 13:25, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
"I've shown that native speakers don't normally put "the" before software titles": you've shown no such thing—you've only worn numerous editors' patience with these bizarre divorced-from-reality assertions. You're not even careful with your own examples: just as Warren fell on his face when asserting Apache itself doesn't use the definite article (ouch!), you've done it yourself now with the K-Lite codec Pack: "There are four different variants of the K-Lite Codec Pack." And with the Mac App Store, etc etc etc. these aren't the "mistakes" you assert they are—they are following rules of English that you're struggling with.
Let's quit going around in circles here and let ANI sort it out. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 13:36, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello! :)
And bravo. This is your second post which contains discussion on the contribution. Good work. You are doing it!
As for the K-Lite Codec Pack example, here is a link to a web search for "K-Lite Codec Pack" -"the", which you can compare with "the K-Lite Codec Pack". By the way, WHOIS shows that codecguide.com is registered with a Swedish registrar, so probably it is a great example of a native speak of Swedish English!
As for going to ANI, what you going say? That I am committing the crime of disagreeing with you? Sure. Go to ANI. Just mind the boomerang!
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 15:15, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
"And bravo. This is your second post which contains discussion on the contribution.": this is trolling. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 20:41, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
The question is mainly whether the software title is made up of, and being treated as if including, a common noun (something that would have a lower case wikipedia article) that accurately describes the software, and that is not just a product name.
  1. Microsoft Java Virtual Machine - the article you linked uses "the Microsoft Java Virtual Machine" and so do the overwhelming majority of references on Google
  2. Kaspersky Firewall - yes
  3. Microsoft Graph - not "a graph"
  4. Microsoft Photos - not "a photos"
  5. Microsoft Photo Editor - yes
  6. Office Web Components - "web components" is not a common noun
  7. Microsoft Office Picture Manager, "picture manager" is not a common noun
  8. Windows Media Player - it's the original "media player" if it has become a common noun which I don't believe it has
  9. Media Player Classic - this is not "a media player classic"
  10. K-Lite Codec Pack - overwhelming majority of references on the web use "the K-Lite Codec Pack"
  11. Batch Document Converter Pro - this is not "a document converter pro"
  12. Foxit PDF Editor - yes
  13. Shadow Copy - this is not "a copy"
  14. [IBM] Business Process Manager - not really, "a business process manager" is a person
  15. [Microsoft] Process Explorer - this is not "a process explorer"
  16. Dolphin - this is not "a dolphin" also we aren't talking about bare names, instead things with a brand and then a common noun
  17. Avira Antivirus - not "an antivirus" but rather "antivirus software"
You seem to have some trouble vetting your examples yourself to see if they actually meet the scenario I keep referring to. You've also found two new clear cases to add to my list. At any rate, finding a sprinkling of exceptions to my explanation out of many attempts you've made doesn't invalidate the fact that in the industry, professionals and the publisher alike refer to the Apache HTTP Server with a "the". Your desire for English to have 100% consistency does not outweigh grammar in actual use. For example, book titles generally do not get the definite article but lo and behold, the Odyssey does, as well as the Quran. And what ever happened to taking a wiki-vacation? —DIYeditor (talk) 02:55, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello, DIYeditor
How are you today?
Boy I love your spirit. You are the most noble of all participants.
First thing first, sorry about the Microsoft Virtual Machine typo. I meant Microsoft Virtual PC. Similar names. Sorry. I haven't researched about virtual machines.
So, you have tried to wriggle your way out of a number of these on debatable pretexts, e.g. "antivirus" and "converter" are being ruled out without mentioning a rule for them. Or "media player" not being a common noun while we have several types of it already. (Strangely, the words you deny are epitomes of our modern computing-influenced lives.) But I have not failed to notice that, at the end of the day, you have inserted "yes" in front of a number of them.
But you said one thing and I am holding you to it. If "Web Components" is not a common noun, then "HTTP Server" has this exact same status. Hence, you just supported my position in this discussion.
Overall, according to your principle, the definite article is added under very limited circumstances. And in those circumstances, it is not rule-based, but something that native speaker may or may not do, depending on their whim. You probably know where I am going with this.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 04:34, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
P.S. Seriously? "Picture manager" is refuted but "Photo editor" gets an approval? Also "PDF editor" is okay but "Web components" is not? And all these are taken to be software but all of a sudden "business process manager" becomes a person? Your native speaker instinct seem to be very unruly. Given the fact that "Grammar" is a body of rules, you can no longer call any of this "grammar". —Codename Lisa (talk) 05:00, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Let's not fall into the trap of assume English simply is riddled with inconsistencies. Inconsistencies exist, but whether a particular product takes a definite article is something native English speakers can reliably predict without consulting with the product's producers or performing a Google search (suggesting an unexpressed rule or rules we have all assimilated). The Apache HTTP Server and the Mac App Store are two such examples—native Egnlish speakers know they require a definite article, and a Google search does no more than confirm what we already know. Lisa and Warren are telling us that both what we instinctively know and what we can verify as overwhelmingly standard usage are simply wrong. I mean, look at the backflip Warren did with Apache, first "appealing to authority" by linking to the Apache home page (without bothering to read it), then insisting we should never appeal to authority when it turns out the page he linked to consistently contradicted this phantasie that "people" wouldn't use the definite article to refer to software products. There's no reasoning with such a mentality. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:49, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
I don't think people are being inconsistent when they say "the Mac App Store", "the Windows SDK", "the Microsoft JVM", "the Apache HTTP Server", "the .NET Framework" or "the K-Lite Codec Pack" (or many other examples we could readily find), I think they are in fact following a simple line of logic as I've described it. I just meant the rule is more subtle than simply applying to all software titles. Codename Lisa wants there to be a single standard that applies to all software/services and, like with books as an example, it's more complex than that. For the few "exceptions" CL has found it's just that they are being treated as a name rather than being descriptive. —DIYeditor (talk) 04:16, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Hi again
You are being self-contradictory here. You don't think people are being inconsistent but you have inserted a number of "yes" in front of my examples, meaning that they are. The thing you label as "few exception" are our entire body of samples, given the nobody contributed anything to it. Do you want me dump a full list of apps from Softpedia here and see what a small percentage of them receive "the" in the end?
Also, Windows SDK is not an app title. It is a descriptor meanig "SDK pertaining to Windows". It is equivalent value is "Windows software development kit". Inserting a definite article before it is permissible.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 04:47, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
He's not being self-contradictory—he's acknowledging edge cases. We don't base rules on exceptions. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 04:57, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Oh, hi. Nice day, isn't it? Given the fact that you've added no case of your own, it seems to me you are acting exclusively based on exceptions. The more I try to show you what people in general do, the more you demonstrate WP:IDHT, clutch at that exception burry yourself in the sand.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 06:06, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
"Given the fact that you've added no case of your own"—look, more trolling! We're back to attrition and WP:IDHT—not that we ever left it. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
@Codename Lisa: Dump the full list of books from Wikisource and only a tiny percentage of them would get a "the" if it is not part of the title, yet there are some that do (the Odyssey, the Quran, etc.). Also, incorrect, the official name of the Windows SDK when they do bother to spell it out is "Windows Software Development Kit"[1][2][3][4] in capital letters. The capital letters indeed don't change the fact that it is "an SDK" so it would be very awkward not to use a "the". A quick web search of ""with the Apache HTTP Server" (2,140,000) vs. "with Apache HTTP Server" (71,500) shows the overwhelming majority of people use "the". Descriptive grammar is preferable to prescriptive especially for a project like this. You've already admitted to wanting to use Wikipedia to try to make changes in English usage which is a plain violation of its premises: the first and second pillars and other accepted norms against advocacy and activism. —DIYeditor (talk) 05:45, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Hi again.
But "descriptive grammar" is advocay and activism. It seems to me that you just say anything and clutch at every bits and pieces of floating concept to support your already shaky position. That's conservatism, which prescriptive grammarians are accused of.
"Descriptive grammar" is what I am doing: Analyzing actual use cases. Even the descriptive grammar has a threshold of error. Descriptive grammar has never sanctioned the use of "it's" and "its" as interchangeable even though people are doing it.
Let's face the fact: People sometimes insert "the" and sometimes not. There is absolutely no rule in it. (Review your own list of "yes", "no" and refutal.) It is a matter of style in which there is no right or wrong. And when that comes to pass, MOS:STABILITY comes into play.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 06:06, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
""Descriptive grammar" is what I am doing: Analyzing actual use cases"—no, you've explicitly told us that the way people actually refer to the Apache HTTP Server, the Mac App Store, etc. is in error and have told us not to follow the example of actual usage. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 20:53, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello :)
By the way, DIYeditor had asked about my Wiki-vacation. Well, I took it. Feel free to see my contributions log: 4 November is almost empty, and 5 November is completely missing. And now, I am able to keep a civil tongue, assuming good faith in all of you, and have a civil discourse about our dispute.
Still, I have a feeling someone here wished my vacation would take one month, during which I pose no opposition to the ongoing discussion and when I come back, I somehow magically feel supportive of all of you.
Sorry, guys, but without a civil dispute, Wikipedia does not grow. Let our discussion run its course. Something good is bound to happen.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 06:24, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Anyone looking for insight into Codename Lisa's style of behaviour should take a peak at Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:02, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Oh, hello, again :)
Well, thank you. I believe I now have enough material to write my Accusation 101: How to Frame and Accuse Good-Faith Editors essay.
Basically, it comes down to this:
  • If they are acting politely, say they are being codescending.
  • If they are putting up a good discussion and you can't refute them, say they are civil POV-pushers.
  • If they have edited outside the dispute period, accuse them of having edited after the dispute started; because, who would check the date?
  • If one another person is supporting them, accuse them of sockpuppetry.
  • If two other persons are supporting them, accuse one of sockpuppetry and the other of meat puppetry. After all, over the course of years, two editors who edit the same field have worked together. It is plausible that they've had ulterior motivations.
  • If one of the thousands of examples that the active editor provided is wrong, refute it and say "you have no legs to stand on it", because who the hell would check the other examples.
Well, I believe that sums it up. Thank you for being my master and teaching me evildoing. I bow to you.
But I am not going to do any of these. These have been done to me and they never succeeded.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 12:00, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
"If one of the thousands of examples ..."—Jesus Christ, where do you even come up with this stuff? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 12:04, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Hello, master
That's standard evil-doing! I just provided 31 examples here. But when I become an evil person, I must exaggerate it to one thousand. Also, I want to tell the readers that they can do it if the innocent editor who was active enough to bring up 1000 examples.
LOL. You see? You are so biased against me that even if I do something evil and tell you I am doing it on the grounds of being evil, you still dispute.
It is time you took a step back and see things in perspective. I'll come back to this in two month, unless someone pings me.
Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 12:15, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

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Pronunciation[edit]

The article says the word is pronounced (/əˈpætʃiː/ ə-PATCH-ee) but does it really have a long "ee" sound at the end? Doesn't it sound more the the i in "big"? Perhaps a citation is needed. 83.104.249.240 (talk) 14:12, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

"ee" —DIYeditor (talk) 17:52, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
I have no third-party source to show you but, anecdotally, the long "ee" is how I've always heard it pronounced; it's also how I'd pronounce "a patchy", as mentioned in the etymology section.
More importantly, it's the same pronunciation listed in our article about the Apache peoples, so either that page needs correcting (or sourcing), or we'd need evidence of different usage in the two contexts. - IMSoP (talk) 17:33, 12 October 2018 (UTC)