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Nested Hierarchy of Apes[edit]

This article seems to be making some sort of distinction between Apes and Monkey. But in Evolution, aren't Apes just another type of Monkey? Maybe I missed something in the article, and I'm just spouting bullshit here. I hope I can get a reply on this soon then.

Thank you, Kyle Tatum 17:30, 29 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylet345 (talkcontribs)

This is contentious, unfortunately, because of the history of the terms in the English language. The word "ape" was the only word to designate (non-human) primates. And the only (non-human) primates known to English speakers were the Old World monkeys of Africa and nearby territories. There was no knowledge of the chimps, gorillas, or the primates of Madagascar, Southeast Asia and South America.
For some unknown reason, the word "monkey" was introduced to the English language and this caused confusion as explorers discovered new primates. At some time, it was decided that the word "ape" should be restricted to the chimps, gorillas, orangs, gibbons, and siamangs (and, for obvious reasons, not for humans); while the word "monkey" for the two groups: Old Word monkeys and New World monekys. We seem to be stuck with that decision, as pointless as it seems now. For the "apes", as well as humans, are more closely related to the Old World monkeys than New World monkeys are related to Old World monkeys. What the upshot is, that one has to be long-winded when ever talking about the relationships among primates. TomS TDotO (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Exactly. Maybe at some time in the future, popular usage will align itself to the scientifically recognized taxa, but there's no sign of this at present, and as noted in the article, even such eminent and usually careful writers such as Richard Dawkins often use "ape" and "monkey" in the popular sense. Peter coxhead (talk) 05:37, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Maybe this should be somewhat reflected in the article? A notation of some sort to show the colloquial and scientific uses of each term, and then correct the article where it needs to be corrected to make it more scientifically accurate. Maybe in the 'Disctinction between Apes and Monkeys' section, make it a bit more clear that it only refers to the modern predecessors of these two groups. I'm sure there are ways where we can make this article more accurate in this respect, while also making it simple to understand for the average reader that may not be knowledgeable in the area of Evolution (or in this case, specifically Taxonomy and Phylogenetics). Kyle Tatum (talk) 21:28, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Maybe the appropriate treatment is the one in the article Monkey#Historical and modern terminology? I've added a link. TomS TDotO (talk) 23:56, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
That section does seem to acknowledge Ape ancestry being Catarrhines, so something that effect could be done with this page as well.
This article begins with "Apes (Hominoidea) are a branch of Old World tailless anthropoid catarrhine primates native to Africa and Southeast Asia." The technical language is no problem. Hominoidea are catarrhine primates. The problem arises when that is translated to non-technical English, "apes are Old World monkeys." (And, BTW, although Homo sapiens is a member of Hominoidea, many people shy away from saying that "humans are monkeys.") TomS TDotO (talk) 04:38, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
Precisely right. In current non-technical English, "apes" are not "monkeys", and "humans" are not "apes". This may change one day (though I doubt it); until then, Wikipedia's task is to report the world as it is. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:05, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
Wikipedia redirects an inquiry about the traditional name "Barbary ape" to "Barbary macaque"; and "ladybird", "ladybug" and "lady beetle" to "Coccinellidae". On the other hand, "sea stars" and "Asteroidea" are redirected to "Starfish". What's an editor to do? TomS TDotO (talk) 13:10, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
Grin (or grimace) and bear it, seems to be the answer. The problem lies deep in the philosophy of the English Wikipedia, which favours consensus reached at individual articles over consistency across articles, most especially if that consistency is supported by a WikiProject. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:12, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Geographical distribution?[edit]

Any chance we can get a small section about where apes are found in the world, ideally with a complementary map? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:30, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Basically central Africa and Southeast Asia / Indonesia. Details are probably better on the individual articles. AnonMoos (talk) 06:22, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 25 June 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved  — Amakuru (talk) 19:41, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

ApeHominoid – The word "ape" is ambiguous, used in many different ways (Barbary ape). We should have this article at the clearer word "hominoid". Fish567 (talk) 14:36, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

  • Strong Opposed, this was pretty much the same discussion that happened on 28 May; the same counterarguments exist, WP:COMMONNAME WP:RECOGNIZABILITY, that discussion snowed. Most names are ambiguous that's what top notes are for.GliderMaven (talk) 15:54, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Strong Opposed - *entirely* agree with the *Excellent* comments made above by User:GliderMaven - hope this helps in some way - iac - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 20:54, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
  • VERY VERY VERY STRONGLY SUPPORT Humans are not apes so why is a category that includes humans being called "apes"? I understand the classification system has been revised, but "ape" has entered the common lexicon and refers to an anthropoid monkey, even if that meaning has become obsolete in technical science. Stop changing the definition of words. Humansarenotapes (talk) 14:37, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
    Humansarenotapes (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. — Andy W. (talk) 21:12, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Still the common name and the common topic for the word. Nothing has changed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:22, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
But ape is NOT the common name for all the species in this group. Humans are in this group and we're not commonly known as apes. There are even movies like "Planet of the Apes" which are specifically about the planet being taken over by non-human primates. Just because we're as closely related to apes as apes are related to each other doesn't mean we're apes, because ape refers to a certain phenotype that we lack. Humansarenotapes (talk) 12:18, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment Arguments for and against article title changes should reflect WP:AT as a whole, and not just WP:COMMONNAME. "Ape" is strongly supported as the common name, but does fail the precision test, as Fish567 notes. Balancing the five tests at WP:AT is always difficult. Personally I favour the approach adopted by WP:FLORA: in cases of ambiguity, use the scientific name. However, it's clear that this is not the consensus for other taxonomic groups in the English Wikipedia. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:46, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
  • OPPOSE -- the idea of a taxonomic group of all tailless primates has been strongly scientifically discredited for 150 years or more, so should have no influence on the name of this article. It does appear in certain semi-old-fashioned variants of common names of species (such as "Barbary ape"), but a lot of strange things appear in such common species names -- for example, a "horseshoe crab" is not remotely a crab according to any taxonomic definition of crabs. We are not going to change the name of our Crab article based on the name of the "horseshoe crab", so we shouldn't change the name of our Ape article based on the name of the "barbary ape"... AnonMoos (talk) 11:16, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
Apes are a paraphyletic taxa so why are you trying to impose the term on Hominoidea which is a monophyletic taxa? It's trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. It doesn't make sense. Just rename this article Hominoidea and create a new article about apes which explains that only non-human hominoidea are apes. By changing the name of well established taxa and common term, all Wikipedia is doing is creating confusion. Humansarenotapes (talk) 19:30, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes, exactly. Apes and hominoids are different, like fish and vertebrates. "fish" is a paraphyletic taxa and "vertebrate" is a monophyletic taxa. 2602:306:3653:8440:D90A:CC47:4CAC:C320 (talk) 02:21, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
It's not quite so simple. "Ape" is sometimes used by biologists as a synonym for "hominoid", although often it's used in the traditional sense – as the article explains. "Fish" is no longer used by any reliable scientific sources as the name of a taxon. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:01, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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