Talk:Apollo program

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Good article Apollo program has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
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Important information missing[edit]

Right from the beginning, the article makes sure to name all the directors who were involved in management ans such... But information about those who really made this happen (the chief scientists) is vague, diffuse, or missing. For instance, who were behind the design of the shuttle? Who were those involved 1st hand into conceptualization, engineering and design at each stage of the programs? We know about Von Brown and Kurt Heinrich Debus, both Nazis (we could say "former" after the fall of the Nazi, although intentions and perceptions are of individual matters whatever the final issue of WW2 since they did not flee Germany like Einstein, and served Hitler until the end), but that's about it. For instance, it's not because a rocket is more spectacular than a shuttle, that it's then "more difficult" to design, it's just more dangerous for the technicians (the term "Rocket science" is only a populist figure). Why should only Nazis be rewarded with stardom more than other scientists? Because that's how it looks, and too many amongst those "negationists" regarding the walk on the Moon, are using that argument as some "ad hominem" judgment over the whole program. So, who were they? Unfortunately I don't have this information. --HawkFest (talk) 22:02, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Nazi: 1. A member of Adolph Hitler's political party that controlled Germany from 1933 to 1945; 2. an evil person who wants to use power to control and harm other people especially because of their race, religion, etc.
From your POV tirade, which seems to be focused on deriding von Braun and Debus as "Nazis" (utter slander in von Braun's case, IMO), I'm having a hard time seeing what glaring omissions exist in the article. It's strange that you seem to criticize the term "rocket science" as "a populist figure" (what does that mean?), yet you seem to be misled yourself by it as you ask for "the chief scientists" who made this happen, not recognizing the difference between science and engineering.
The preliminary Apollo capsule design, which ended up being used, was made by Maxime Faget, who perhaps should be mentioned here. (The Apollo spacecraft feasibility study could also be summarized here, with a little more info on the spacecraft contractor selection process. The chief engieers at the contractors (North American Aviation and Grumman, Boeing and McDonnell) were responsible for the detailed design and engineering work; with a significant contribution from the Marshal Spaceflight Center for the Saturn V integrated design; these are covered in the space vehicle hardware articles. Perhaps they could be summarized or wikilinked a bit better, but nobody's trying to "only reward Nazis with stardom." JustinTime55 (talk) 21:45, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Political response[edit]

(political stuff) Yes. I also would like to know about the decision after Kennedy's address to the congress: Any resistance? Any discussion? It is assumed that the congress accepted Kennedy's proposal, but did they really? When then? Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 08:55, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

You bring up a good point which probably should be covered. At the beginning, there was such a fear of the Soviets (see Space Race) that I'm sure there was not much opposition at the start, when we were so far behind and it was perceived as a national security threat (Congress approved the required funds, after all.) I'm sure the liberals would have much rather spent the money on social welfare programs, but political blowback didn't really start until NASA started getting into trouble (see reaction to Apollo 1.) On the day of the Apollo 11 launch, the Rev. Ralph Abernathy led a protest outside the gates of the Kennedy Space Center, and Administrator Thomas Paine spoke to him. JustinTime55 (talk) 21:45, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Well then ... sources? Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 07:51, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
I know... right? JustinTime55 (talk) 13:00, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Science spin-offs findings[edit]

(science spin-off stuff findings) I know that the Apollo program influenced the theories of the early solar system and the origin of the moon very much (Geology of the Moon, Origin of the Moon, Late Heavy Bombardment, etc..) but some article text is needed for that, up to and including academic sources making the syntheses. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 07:51, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Found some sources for science findings:
Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 08:27, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. This is probably the biggest outstanding deficiency (see Science legacy above). Two points:
  • What's there seems to be limited to technology spinoffs, and doesn't really cover the lunar geology and cosmology. Unfortunately those aren't my strong suits, nor apparently of the others heretofore interested in this article. JustinTime55 (talk) 13:26, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I really don't like lumping the "science" and culture impact together under the heading "Legacy". I think this should be considered a word-to-watch (don't know whether to call it peacock, weasel, or euphamism when overused). I think science and culture should be two separate main sections, with science subdivided into "Lunar science" and "Cosmology".
I think I'll try to solicit some help on the Spaceflight project page. JustinTime55 (talk) 13:26, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Mission profile pictures[edit]

Source of the mission profile images

The purpose of this image montage is to illustrate the basic steps in the lunar mission, but not every detail of the mission. They are taken from the single montage image shown here. It's nice that you found and uploaded a line-drawing image of the LM sleeping arrangements, but that's an internal detail that's out of scope of the mission profile, which is not intended to answer such interesting questions as "How did the astronauts sleep?". Note that all the images are from outside the spacecraft. There is no similar picture of the astronaut's sleeping arrangements in the Command Module, or other internal mission details such as using the navigation sextant, toilet facilities, etc. Where would it end?

The informational value of your image is appreciated, and I put it in the Apollo Lunar Module article, where I think it fits best. We have summary sections here on the spacecraft, but to add it there I think would still be trying to cram too much. JustinTime55 (talk) 16:56, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Nine or six manned flights above LEO?[edit]

This article reads the following, "...while the final Apollo 17 mission marked the sixth Moon landing and the ninth manned mission beyond low Earth orbit". What are the other three then? The Low Earth orbit article tells a completely different story, "With the exception of the manned lunar flights of the Apollo program, all human spaceflights have taken place in LEO (or were suborbital)." I'll change this article to six but feel free to revert/discuss if I'm wrong and there indeed were nine manned flights above LEO.--Adûnâi (talk) 11:47, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Apollo 8 and Apollo 10 were manned missions that orbited the Moon without landing. -Fnlayson (talk) 15:07, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
And Apollo 13 flew past the moon without landing after a malfunction in the service module. Those are the three instances in which manned craft flew out of LEO without landing on the moon. Since all three flew to the vicinity of the moon, all can still be reasonably called "lunar" flights in the LEO article. VQuakr (talk) 22:10, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Kennedy half dollar photo with speech quote as caption[edit]

@Tdadamemd sioz:, this is inappropriate for several reasons:

  • Inappropriate use of photo: does not illustrate the speech, and carries an implicit memorial. Images are supposed to be used to illustrate the text in the article.
  • A caption is supposed to be a brief description of the photo. The text did not describe the half dollar, and (again, inappropriately in a POV way) was used to sneak in the prose you wanted to add with Kennedy's statement.
  • Again, the point of this article is not to memorialize Kennedy and say what "a grand sales pitch" he gave. There is a Costs section; if you feel his comment is appropriate, put it in there. JustinTime55 (talk) 13:01, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
There are plenty of space historians who point to Kennedy's Rice speech as having been a grand sales pitch. But the article does not say that, so I find it curious that you will quote something I wrote in the article summary as a basis for your objection.
As for the appropriateness of the image, it was the US Congress that decided to memorialize JFK on that coin. Not me. So what you are objecting to happens to be an historical fact. And guess how else Congress memorialized JFK? By naming an entire space center after him. The Wikipedia Policy does not prohibit articles from including what the US Congress has decided to be an appropriate memorialization.
JFK kicked off Project Apollo. He was memorialized on a coin. The flights were launched from a space center named after him. Appropriate, appropriate, appropriate ...as I see it. Clearly an NPOV account of history.
His speech mentioned the cost being on the order of 50 cents, and so I included a photo of a 50 cent piece. Is that really a huge problem? I'll suggest you take a fresh look at Wikipedia policy to see that it gives absolutely no prohibition against accurate history.--Tdadamemd sioz (talk) 15:08, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
You must be off your meds if you are so hyped up on your admiration of Kennedy that you can't properly interpret what I'm saying. I'm going to take a deep breath, and try to explain slowly and patiently, as clearly as I know how, so you can understand:
I never said that putting Kennedy's face on the half dollar was inappropriate. Please read the hyperlink I made above to WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE. That says "Images must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly and directly related to the article's topic." The topic of this article is the Apollo program, not how great a President (communicator) he was, or the appropriateness of memorializing him on a coin. I do not object to the historical fact of JFK's face on a coin. I do not object to "space historians describing the Rice speech as a great sales pitch". The linking of the half dollar memorial to the Apollo program would be WP:OR on your part. There are obviously other reasons besides Apollo which led to the issuance of the coin. The "50 cents" is purely a coincidence; using the picture would amount to WP:SYNTHESIS.
Using this or any other Wikipedia article (even his biography) to highlight what a great communicator he was,
It is also poor form to write a paragraph of text (which you desire to place in the article) in an image caption; that is not what a caption is for; it is to simply describe what the image shows. This image shows the Kennedy half dollar, which you don't say in the caption (and is not the point of the article.)
I have no objection to your adding text saying something like, "In his Rice University speech, Kennedy compared the cost in terms of what citizens were paying for cigarettes". This of course has to be put in context of the prose which is already there; Kennedy and the cost of the program (in terms of absolute estimates) are already mentioned.
Please remove the photo, leaving the text. I would be happy to assist you with this. JustinTime55 (talk) 18:28, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Apollo program "artifcacts"[edit]

How about a table listing current locations and of the Apollo Command Modules, and other associated hardware still in existence? (perhaps better as a separate article. Perhaps also another article listing splashdown locations and U.S. Navy's support ships involves. Wfoj3 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:08, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

"Music"/sounds during pass behind moon[edit]

Am I missing something or is this not mentioned anywhere in the articles for the Apollo program? Here's the Apollo 10 lunar module onboard voice transcription, recorded on the lunar module onboard recorder data storage equipment. http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/mission_trans/AS10_LM.PDF And a youtube video discussing it. Al Worden is featured in it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjLZBrQ-Oq4 --RThompson82 (talk) 07:43, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Why would you expect Wikipedia to have covered this, when the story was just reported on by CNN two hours ago (NASA releases recording of 'outer-space type music' from far side of the moon) and NASA has been quiet about it for 39 years? Since the transcripts and tapes were declassified and released in 2008, I find it curious that it didn't hit the popular media's radar until this weekend.
We could consider adding it, but take WP:FRINGE into account, not painting it as "ufology" and including the likely natural explanation, which is interference between the CM and LM radio systems. YouTube is certainly not a reliable source in this case. JustinTime55 (talk) 18:30, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Lunar ferroan anorthosite photo[edit]

Yesterday I had replaced a blurry image of an Apollo 16 sample with a clear photo of exactly the same rock, although from a slightly different angle and lighting. Just curious why the edit was reverted. Jstuby (talk) 14:02, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

The most glaring thing is that the new photo has a different aspect ratio, 1.333 height to width, versus 1.1455 in the old photo; this causes it to not line up with its mate in the Template:Multiple image. The two need to be displayed at the same height. If you can figure out how to adjust the inputs to fix this, I have no objection to the replacement. (I know, it's complicated and the instructions seem a bit confusing.)
The other thing that stood out was that the older one had less color; I found the color more visually striking than the focus, which I failed to catch. I guess the focus is more important than the color (since Moon rock just looks grey, after all).
I just did your work of adjusting the template so they're the same height. JustinTime55 (talk) 15:12, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Nice job! Jstuby (talk) 01:11, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Partial failures[edit]

@2601:190:402:3150:213e:f031:d8a7:bb55: Apollo 13 is considered by NASA to be a complete mission failure, because it failed in its major objective to land two astronauts on the Moon, not just to get them back alive. Jim Lovell's and Gene Kranz's rhetoric about a "successful failure" notwithstanding. Failure does not necessarily mean the astronauts die. They did not complete a "partial mission" by flying around the Moon; they were too busy trying to survive. The only mission objective which was a success was crashing the S-IVB into the Moon for the seismic experiment; that is an extremely small percentage of success. JustinTime55 (talk) 15:46, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

NASA defines "partial mission success" (or at least did in 1970) as the achievement of at least one primary mission objective. Please check page 2–39 of the Apollo Program Summary Report. The primary objectives of Apollo 13 were:

  1. to perform selenological Inspection, survey, and sampling of materials in a preselected region of the Fra Mauro formation;
  2. to deploy and activate an Apollo lunar surface experiments package;
  3. to develop further man's capability to work in the lunar environment;
  4. to obtain photographs of candidate exploration sites.

It is pretty obvious none of these was achieved, and I believe it would be original research to call it a partial failure (which necessarily implies partial success). JustinTime55 (talk) 18:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)