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ethnic info box images
I replaced the lousy images in the ethnic info box with these ones:
But some guy reverted the edits without mentioning a reason (he probably does not have a good reason). Please say your opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 22:56, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Who is Raghida Dergham? Is this a prominent figure? This is just one random journalist (there are many contemporary journalists who are better known). Who is Fayeq al-Ayadhi? I doubt anyone outside Kuwait ever heard this name. Mustafa Wahbi al-Tal is too local. I replaced him with Abd al-Rahman al-Kawakibi who is widely known in the Arab world and one of the first renaissance thinkers. Zayed bin Sultan founded the UAE, and Ibn Saud founded the KSA; these two deserve mention instead of the Sultan of Oman (who did not found anything). I also added Nobel prize winners and some pre-Islamic figures because as you know the Arabs were around for a long time before Islam.--22.214.171.124 (talk) 23:14, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
I changed Naseer Shamma with Khaled for two reasons, Khaled is better known globally, and he is from the Maghreb. There are not many figures from the Maghreb so adding Khaled is good for balance. I wanted to change Asmahan with Um-kulthum, but I did not because Asmahan represents Arab minorities such as the Druze.--126.96.36.199 (talk) 23:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
If you think that 25 images are too many then I suggest the following version:
Hello. When the current infobox was instated, it was noted that it should at best display "almost every member state of the arab world". Iraq was given the exception to be featured often because Baghdad was the center of the ancient arab world. Sultan Qaboos was chosen for Oman because he stabilized the country after his father had run it into the ground. Raghida Gergham was chosen for Lebanon because she's arab(Not every lebanese person with an arab name is arab, the same goes with syria.) she is a woman, and because she was the first woman, first muslim, and first arab to speak for the United Nations General Assembly. Those are amazing accomplishments. Fayeq was chosen, because he was the voice of kuwait during their war with iraq, when many fled their homes to neighboring UAE, Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, he stayed and recited poetry inspired by Khalil Gibran to the masses, ultimately meeting his death before seeing kuwait rise again. Mustafa wahbi was one of the first prominent scholars to arise from Transjordan, which is an amazing feat. We were trying to refrain from listing Emirs, and Kings but seeing the only truly famous Omani is the Sultan and UAEs Sheikh Zayed, the two of them need recognition.
If we were going to go by popularity, then the only people who would be on the list would be Syrians, Lebanese, and maybe an Egyptian or two. Which doesn't accurately represent the accomplishments across the arab world. But I do agree with you on one strong point, and that is that Sudan isn't represented. One of iraqs members should be replaced with Muhammed Ahmad and another with Sheikh Zayed.188.8.131.52 (talk) 00:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
If you want to display every member state, then you will need at least 22 images, because there are 22 Arab states, but this principle is irrational because the Arab states are widely variant in terms of area and historical significance. What you should reasonably do is to represent every (wide) geographic region of the Arab World (the Maghreb, the Mashriq, the Sudan, the Arabian Peninsula).
If you apply this principle, then you will not mention Qaboos and ignore Ibn Saud who formed a large and important country out of nothing. It is ridiculous to choose Qaboos and ignore Ibn Saud and Zayed bin Sultan, who are much more significant.
What you say about Raghida Gergham is really offensive. Are you Arab? When I started choosing images I thought I needed at least a total of 100 images to represent significant Arab people with the minimum fairness, but I never thought of choosing Raghida Gergham! Who is this woman? I doubt that many Arab people ever heard her name. It is really culturally offensive to ignore all the important Arab people (of whom there are dozens) and pick some American-Lebanese journalist whose only merit is that she appears on CNN! This is insane. There are dozens of influential Arab journalists and writers who deserve to be chosen instead.
From the way you talk about the Arabs in Lebanon it seems that you are not Arab, or perhaps you belong to some radical political minority group. To say that "not all Lebanese are Arabs" is an eccentric opinion in the Arab World that I know. If you believe that not all Lebanese are Arabs and not all Syrians are Arabs, then there is no point in me talking to you in the first place. I never thought I would have to discuss such eccentric opinions on this article. I am not going to talk any more. You may be some Zionist or anti-Arab (who knows?). I really do not have time for these useless Wikipedia arguments.--184.108.40.206 (talk) 03:29, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Firstly, let me apologize. Maybe you didn't understand where I was coming from on the Raghida situation. And yes I am arab, my family is from East Yemen. What I was trying to say is that when the article was first being created, we wanted prominent women to be displayed as well as men. Raghida as well as Tawakol, Zainab, Sheba, Manal, and Asmahan were chosen due to the amazing accomplishments they've had. Because frankly and unfortunately, the world sees arab and muslim women as oppressed. To counter that Raghida was placed because she was the first woman ever to speak for the United Nations! A world leaders council dominated by men. And about the whole every syrian, or every lebanese isn't arab situation, it is true. The same goes for the states of the magreb. There are numerous minorities in all of those countries from people who were there before the arabs, such as the berbers or Assyrians.
But I still want your input on how to better it, who would you chose for the 22 member states? al mutannabi, sheba, sharif, and could make up the other 220.127.116.11.155 (talk) 06:45, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- To decide what minorities exist in a country you must check the laws and culture of that country, not your personal feelings and dispositions. In Lebanon all the people are officially a single ethnicity, which is the Arab ethnicity (according to the constitution). I avoided choosing any Lebanese figures who would have protested being called Arab. In my opinion there is no need to choose any Lebanese at all. Lebanon is such a small country and some Lebanese do not like being called Arabs; there is no need to waste our time picking a Lebanese figure. If you insist on a Lebanese figure, then I suggest choosing someone like George Kurdahi who is a well-known contemporary journalist (most Arab people know him) and he would not mind being called Arab (which is the position of most of the Lebanese). There are many other famous Lebanese to choose from. Unfortunatly, Raghida Gergham is NOT one of the famous or outstanding Lebanese. Like I told you, this figure is hardly known in the Arab World. She is just a reporter who lives in the US. Her only merit is that she is well established in the US and New York, but she is not widely know. She does not appear on any major Arab broadcast . Faisal al-Qassem is another example of a journalist that is very well known. A third example is Abdulrahman al-Rashed. I don't want to keep going because there are literally hundreds of journalists who are better known than Raghida Gergham.
- The queen of Sheba would have spoken a South Arabian language, and not Arabic as such. Furthermore any visual depiction of her would not be historically-based. Heliogabalus was a Syrian at a time when the great majority of Syrians spoke Aramaic or Greek. And including Muhammad is problematic if you don't include a visual depiction (but any visual depiction of him would not be historically-based)... -- AnonMoos (talk) 07:51, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- South Arabians are almost always counted as Arabs. The ancient Greek and Roman writers called them Arab. This is universal. The only field in which there is a distinction between north and south Arabs is the field of historical linguistics. By the way, the modern south Arabians would be very unhappy if they heard you deny their being Arab.
- Heliogabalus and Julia Domna were from Homs at a time when the majority of the people in that city spoke Arabic (as evidenced by the name of the local god Elagabalus, which comes straight from ancient north Arabian). If you are interested in the ethnic composition of Roman Syria, then I suggest that you read the "Arabs in Antiquity" for Jan Retsö, or Irfan Shahid's book. These are the most famous and relevant books. I read both of them, but obviously neither of you did.
- This would be the result:
Yes, but the Queen of Sheba would be classified as a Qahtani arab (the southern arabs), which is the branch of the true Arabs. The other being the Adnani (the northern arabs), in which I don't think the Roman Emperors such as Heliogabalus or Phillip would comply with. I think asmahan would still do fine for Syria (unless you have any suggestions) and Abd al kadir should replace Ahmed Ben Bella for Algeria, since he is among the legends of Omar Muktar and Sharif Hussein. I feel the addition of UAE(Sheikh Zayed), Sudan(Mhmd alMahdi) and even KSA(Ibn Saud) can be accommodated for, and the other arab states listed are okay(again, unless you "AnonMoos" have any you feel would be better for a certain country). I agree with the prophet mohammed ﷺ situation, besides, to display any image of the prophet ﷺ would be haram.18.104.22.168 (talk) 10:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- It is true that we need women, but the reality is that women historically were less significant than men, because they lived in patriarchal societies that suppressed them. We can't find as many famous women in history as men. If we try to enforce a quota for women, this will result in unfairness and misrepresentation of outstanding men. We have only 20 images to pick. This is a very small number. In my version there are two pre-Islamic women. We can add some female poet from the Islamic period. Asmahan is a contemporary woman. I also left three women who represent the (peaceful and progressive aspect of the) Arab Spring.--22.214.171.124 (talk) 11:59, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
126.96.36.199 that would not be so, because we are now listing every arab country, building on the infobox from the images already there. You suggested mohammed AlMadhi, sheikh zayed, ibn saud, and emir AbdelKader, as well as umm kulthum earlier which have all been dually noted and will be included in the infobox after me an AnonMoos figure out the other figureheads, I'm favoring leaving the others as is, but I want AnonMoos' input as I have already given mine and you yours. Julia Domna cannot be used, her ancestry is uncertain, as her article states. Al kindi is the "father of arab philosophy, medicine, astronomy, and mathematics" so alhazin and averroes are not necessary.
So far this is what we are looking at... All 22 member states of the arab league are here, with the last three slots filled by an iraqi, a yemeni, and an egyptian, solely because iraq was the center of Arab/Islamic civilization, Egypt is the current center of the Arab world, and Yemen is the homeland of the original arabs.
- I don't think this discussion will be useful if only three persons are engaged in it (two of them believe that Lebanese and Yemenis may not be Arab). I suggest to leave this discussion open until more people give their opinions (preferably ones who understand the modern notion of Arab). In the mean time, I advise 188.8.131.52 to refrain from forcing any changes.--184.108.40.206 (talk) 13:48, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
These are questions that should be answered in this discussion:
- How many images to use (20 or 25?)
- Should the images be allocated based on the modern political divisions (an image for every modern country regardless of its size), or should the images be allocated based on the traditional divisions of the Arab World (Maghrib, Mashriq, Egypt, Sudan, Arabian Peninsula)
Until several people answer to these questions, the current images should be kept and no one should try to force any changes before the discussion is over.--220.127.116.11 (talk) 13:57, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
We both insisted on our versions. Noone said the lebanese or the Yemeni weren't arabs! Please stop assuming and blowing up on people, you completely attacked me, my ethnicity, and considered me a Zionist all because I stated that there are other ethnic minorities in the far reaching arab countries. The image current displayed is only 20 images, and showed the divisions of the Magrib, Mashriq, Masr and the Sudan, and the Pennisula, it is fine that way. I tried to talk with you to see where you were coming from to make changes together that both parties saw appropriate, but it seems that you linger on every detail and anger easily so I will step down and wait and see it others will shed light if the current should stay or if an unnecessary revision is needed.18.104.22.168 (talk) 14:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- To be careful for Zionists and anti-Arabs is not a strange thing because Wikipedia indeed teems with them. I remember in the past that some editors on Wikipedia denied that the Golan Heights are located in Syria. Who would say something like that? They are definitely Zionists or pro-Zionists. I did not accuse you of being Zionist, but it is a well known historical fact that anti-Arabs in Lebanon denied that the Lebanese people were Arab. During the Lebanese civil war certain factions in Lebanon claimed that the Lebanese were not Arab and that they were being invaded by Arab Syria. Israel, the US and Europe supported these anti-Arab factions, but in the end they lost the war, and the Taif peace accord states explicitly that Lebanon is an Arab nation. Today this is not a controversial issue any more. To argue about this is like arguing about whether Nazism should rule in Germany or not (who argues about this anymore?) or whether the southern US should have seceded from the union in 1861 or not. No body argues about these issues anymore except for some people with eccentric opinions.--22.214.171.124 (talk) 14:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
I agree that there are many anti-Arabs out there, mostly Persian Nationalists. Haven't seen much Zionist racist here. Regarding the info box, and this article as a whole, can I please suggest we change it from focusing on the "People of the Arab World" to focusing on the "Arab People". If you want to talk about the diversity of the Arab World, go to the related article about the Berbers, Sudanese, Kurds etc... Even the Arab World article waxes lyrical about all the non-Arabs in the Arab world. What we are missing here is an article about the Arab People - which is what this article should be about. The Arab people as in the Semetic People who were first recorded in the Levent at in the Battle of Qarqar, and who later spread into Bilad Al-Sham, Mashriq, Yaman, Maghrib and Africa. This is an ethnic group completely different from the Berbers, Kurds and Africans and in fact linguistically, culturally and genetically closer to the Israelites. If you are interested in finding photos of Sudanese, Berbers and Kurds, go to the related articles. SaSH172 (talk) 05:00, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- What you say is good, but we should be careful to distinguish between assimilated Arabs and non-Arabs. An assimilated Arab person whose origin is not Arab is still an Arab. Generally any person who speaks only Arabic as a first language is an ethinic Arab. It is quite simple. I don't know why some people keep making fuss about this. If you speak only Arabic and your culture is only Arabic, then what should we call you? Some people can't distinguish between a national identity and an ethnic identity. The Germans and Austrians are two separate national identities, but they are both ethnic German.--126.96.36.199 (talk) 16:38, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. I agree with you that ethnicity is inherently a self-identified group - that means people's ethnicities are based on what they personally consider themselves. Assimilated people are present in ALL ethnicities, which are all created from various groups of people who join together if you go back in time far enough. However, in no ethnicity does anyone even think of saying they are "assimilated" like us Arabs do all the time. The Turks assimilated far more people than Arabs (especially in Anatolia) - but go read the Turkish People wikipedia page - it represents that majority cultural-linguistic identity of the group ONLY (the people who arrived from Central Asia). In the Arab world, most Arabs are turning away from their Arab identity in favour of post-WW1 national identities - even manking nonsense about how they are descended from peoplelike Babylonians, Phoenicians etc... (these people were not different from the Arabs in ancient times).
I think we have two options here - we either create the info-box (and entire page) about 300 million unified Arab people, or we make it about the Arabs who don't believe in National Identities with seperate pages about the assimilated Arabs. It is not fair to have an Arab page about these "Assimilated Arabs" and seperate pages about Lebanese people, Jordanian people, People of the United Arab Emirates and Iraqi people. Arabs like me who do not believe in a national identity have no pages here on Wikipedia, bus assimilated Arabs have at least 20! SaSH172 (talk) 04:32, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- I seriously think that the mosaic infobox should be similar to the one found in the Russians article, it includes many, 32 people, many figures, not just "one from each country" although I think we can shorten it to like 28. And about Lebanese people, I strongly still believe Fairuz's picture should be there, regardless of her Aramean descent she is an assimilated Arab and a singer of pro-Arab music. I'll create one and upload it, see what you guys think. Perhaps a diaspora Arab like Ralph Nader would be great, I mean the guy does speak Arabic fluently and spoke it since childhood and some Arab Israelis like Emile Habibi and Amin Tarif. I don't know about the inclusion of Somalis and Berbers, although they are "Arab" by political means. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 23:52, 22 December 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
- Putting John of Damascus back in there would be a great idea too. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 00:05, 23 December 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101
Thanks so much for doing all that brother. However, I think things like including Fairuz will remain problematic on this article, stifling any real progress. I feel this article places way too much emphasis on "Arabised" Arabs as if similarphenomena don't exist in virtually every other ethnicity - i.e. Persianised Persians, Turkified Turks, Hellenised Greeks etc... If Fairuz is "Arabised" i.e. considers herself Arab not Aramaen, then it is appropriate to put her in the infobox. If she considers herself Aramaen, Syriac, Arabised Syriac etc... then it won't be appropriate IMO. Also please make sure to check out my section "Confused Article" on this discussion (above) for more. Peace. SaSH172 (talk) 14:26, 31 December 2013 (UTC)