Talk:Arena Football League

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2009 on table[edit]

She we due the 2009 on table or not?--Leave Message orYellow Evan home 14:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Info for 2009 will be added once info is actually released by the league. WeatherManNX01 (talk) 15:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Disputed Claim that The League has Folded[edit]

I am disputing the claim as on the AFL's main web site it did not say they have folded the league but just suspended operations for the 2009 season. Also there's no sources to say the league has closed up and folded for good. Therefore I placed the Disputed Template on Top. Sawblade05 (talk to me | my wiki life) 06:23, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

  • I'm with you on this. The league statement indicates on that the 2009 season has been cancelled, not that the league has folded. Players have not been released. The recently added text on the article is worded as if the official statement were that the league is permanently disbanded. It should probably be re-written if no one has more concrete info about an end to the league. Ar-wiki (talk) 16:24, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Until someone can post a citation that the AFL is out of business, I'm reverting to language only indicating that the 2009 season has been canceled. So far AFL players have not been released, and the AFL will be operating af2 in 2009. Ar-wiki (talk) 19:14, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

AFL Motto[edit]

Is there a reference for "Arena Football Rocks!" being the motto for the AFL? I've looked for a while and I can't find anything. Ar-wiki (talk) 03:09, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard of it, and looking at the edit history, I think it's a safe bet that it isn't real. I'd just go ahead and delete it.WeatherManNX01 (talk) 03:46, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Good, God, every promo that you would hear on ESPN before their Monday night games, you'd hear it. It was kinda sung like "Areena, football, rocks!" That sorta thing. I've even heard it during their games on NBC. Crash Underride 17:55, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I feel like I've watched a ton of games either on ESPN or on broadcast TV and I just can't recall hearing that. Either way, I can't find any mention of it anywhere on or even via a search. Think maybe we should pull it? Ar-wiki (talk) 18:25, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Seems to me that it would be a marketing tool used to promote the broadcasts and not an official slogan or motto. WeatherManNX01 (talk) 06:16, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

2010 Expansion[edit]

I've found no links to any source stating that the league will add any new franchises or restart the Voodoo. Can someone help? Megarockman (talk) 05:06, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

There, taken care of. If you'd actually bothered to look at ArenaFan the OFFICIAL fan/news site of the AFL you'd know. It has a link to an article about it. Crash Underride 18:20, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

For anyone looking to add the 2010 expansion teams, let's keep the article clean and cited. AFL and af2 articles are notorious for accumulating laundry lists of supposed and rumored expansion teams. If you have a legitimate source for possible expansion, put it in the expansion section, not the 2010 section of the table. Frankly, I don't think the 2010 part of that table should exist yet since at this time there is no confirmed 2010 season (and thus no confirmed expansion teams). I left Pittsburgh on there, since I know that there are actually talks of including the city if 2010 happens, but even then it has not been confirmed. WeatherManNX01 (talk) 00:26, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I can add San Antonio-- (talk) 21:13, 17 May 2009 (UTC)Lucario210

SA an expansion possibility[edit]

I heard San Antonio is a canadiate for expansion. I put in the article many times in the expansion section San Antonio, & its always removed. It is a canidate for expansion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:10, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Add a citation from a credible source and it can stay. Until then, it gets removed.WeatherManNX01 (talk) 23:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

League folded for good[edit]

This morning, many media outlets are reporting that the AFL has folded for good, and that a Chapter 11 liquidation is forthcoming. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 14:24, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, ESPN is reporting it. It's gone. Here's the link: —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Strictly speaking that isn't 100% certain yet. All we have are reports coming from other reports and "insiders". Heck, ESPN's "report" traces back to the Albany Times Union which cites a Facebook page. While I have no doubt that this is true, I find the reporting to be somewhat suspect at the moment. Also, "for good" is likewise not 100% certain, as some of the same reports are claiming that the league is simply taking extended time off before returning or that some owners are looking into having a go at it themselves. WeatherManNX01 (talk) 01:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
As the article stands right now. It all contradicts itself on rather the AFL has folded or not one section of the article says it's folded (The Folded 1999 in the template on top and the category at the bottom) while the qoute "The league released a statement on August 4 announcing that while the league is not folding, it is suspending league operations indefinitely." means it has not folded it just continues to suspend operation. Also much of the article is using source #1 which doesn't covoer all those quotes, so I may have to tag accordingly and hopefully get an expert on it. Sawblade5 (talk to me | my wiki life) 09:06, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok I have fixed the source error. Someone used the same source name twice and caused some problems. I am considering removing the Ceased Operation date until someone posts an official word on their Chapter 7 Bankruptcy. Sawblade5 (talk to me | my wiki life) 09:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I would simply change ceased to suspended operations and keep it as is. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 09:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

According to this, I'd say it's done: (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:26, 11 December 2009 (UTC).

Old Rules Vs. New Rules[edit]

can the rule section be divided into the former rules of Arena Football in the Old AFL, as well as the current rules used today, for historic references and differences between "indoor" aka Arena vs. "outdoor" American/Canadian football? thanks-- (talk) 01:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm unsure what you're asking. The revived Arena Football League uses the exact same rules as it did before the suspension. Or are you asking about the differences between the American Football League's rules and the Arena Football League's? The outdoor AFL and the Arena League have nothing to do with each other (outside of tenuous NFL connections); the similarity of the scronym is coincidental. oknazevad (talk) 12:08, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

2011 Season[edit]

Hey guys, just wondering when things were going to start coming together for the 2011 season. The Indoor Football League already has theirs up, which is rather embarrassing.. Is anyone going to add it? I would, but I simply don't have the time. Alf42069ps (talk) 22:02, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Also, we should do a better job at the rosters this year. Alf42069ps (talk) 00:20, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

2009 Bankruptcy[edit]

I thought is was strange that it says on here that they filed a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, since that is only for individuals. I went online and found an official court filing that shows it was filed Chap. 7 in error, and was transferred to Chap. 11 - where it should have been - a few days later. That link is I would make the edit, but the HTML is so confusing, I can't figure out what all to do - there are links to the US Bankruptcy Code, then the article that the original item came from, and that URL, then the date that that article was accessed for this entry - I don't know where all of that stops and where I can put in this updated information. I can't believe that no one else caught it that they filed under the wrong chapter! Then again, when you have filed Chap. 7 twice in your life, you get well acquainted with the code. Chap. 11 and 13 are for corps. and partnerships, Chap. 7 is only for individual people. Can someone make this edit or tell me how to make this edit? Thanks! Kelelain (talk) 00:59, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

That is incorrect. See Chapter 7, Title 11, United States Code. Corporations can file for Chapter 7, but must liquidate, not reorganize. That is what happened here; the "old" AFL's assets (intellectual property, such as trademarks) were sold off to the group of owners who had formed "Arena Football 1", which promptly changed its name to the AFL, as it was a recognized brand. oknazevad (talk) 04:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
regardless of all that, the league's bankruptcy as cited in this article was moved from Chap. 7 to Chap. 11, unless you are disputing that the league whose page this is filed bankruptcy at all, you did not provide a substantive response to my question. what i said about who can file chap. 7 doesn't change the fact that the court documents themselves show that the bankruptcy cited by this article was moved from chap. 7 to chap. 11 through the link that i posted, which is an actual court document and not a discussion, summation, or any otherwise secondary source for that information. in fact, a couple of paragraphs down from where i wanted to make this addition, this article does mention that it was a chap. 11, but there is nothing in the article that explains this change. my original question was, how can this information be changed within the article because i am not as familiar with the HTML as other people. i know that the article with this information needs to be cited, the date i accessed it needs to be cited, and the chap. in the bankruptcy code needs to be cited. please give a substantive response to my question if you have one. thanks Kelelain (talk) 22:05, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
My answer wasn't insubstantive; the "old" AFL did file Chapter 7 bankruptcy. I am not a lawyer, so I can't say much about the how's and why's of the Ch 11 conversion, or it's legal implications, but I'm willing to do more research. I think I'll do that now. oknazevad (talk) 02:11, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
i figured it out, there was more help on the use of citations than i knew beforehand, I have added the info. Just for informational purposes, I was just asking for help on the HTML - I am a former paralegal and very knowledgeable about court papers, I just wanted, for continuity's and the truth's sake, to refer to the court document I found showing the conversion. I wasn't looking for a legal philosophy issue, I was just confused by the HTML, but i figured it out and included the change.Kelelain (talk) 19:18, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Ah, cool. Sorry about misunderstanding your questions, then. Wiki-markup can have a steep learning curve. Sorry I wasn't more helpful. oknazevad (talk) 00:33, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

AFL alumni section[edit]

I have temporarily hidden the recently added section on AFL alumni, as I fear it becoming unwieldy quite rapidly. The not I left withthe commenting markup reads as follows:

Temporarily hiding this section until clear criteria are established for what makes the player "notable". Players who played in the AFL and signed as backups for an NFL team in training camp are not uncommon. The article doesn't need to list every one.

So, basically, what should be the criteria for inclusion. Obviously Kurt Warner's career is particularly notable, and his AFL tenure was specifically remarked upon. That, I believe, should be part of the inclusion criteria: not just that the player played in the AFL before going to the NFL, but that his AFL tenure is specifically talked about after his move to the NFL.

On further thought, though, I could easily see this list becoming a maintenance issue, as various random players get added with out fulfilling the criteria, so I question whether we should add it at all. Such lists are always magnets for those types of additions.

Thoughts? oknazevad (talk) 14:51, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

New AFL article[edit]

Has there ever been discussion regarding the start of a brand new Arena Football League article beginning with the 2010 reorganization? Many reputable publications (and this Wikipedia page) clearly explain the 2009 "hiatus" as the definitive end of the original league and the rise of a distinctly new entity buying the rights to use the AFL name. The new AFL likes to acknowledge the history of the old league as being its own, but we all know this is not at all the way it played out. --Blackbox77 (talk) 21:04, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

There was last year, and we agreed to merge that article. It's like a team declaring bankruptcy and being sold to its new owners. They are the same league. YE Pacific Hurricane 21:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Would you mind pointing me in the right direction so I can read that discussion? I'd be interested to see it. From my point of view, a team and a league are too different to be treated so similarly. I understand the logic of keeping the same article if a team transfers ownership or merely changes its name. But leagues (as opposed to their trademarks) are not bought and sold. A league in the traditional sense is put in place by the independent teams that agree to form it. Historically a single team may have existed in multiple different leagues at different points in time. If an old football league collapsed due to folding teams, the remaining clubs could find a home in a new or preexisting league. Many examples of this are seen in the historic football leagues of the early to mid 1900s. In the Arena Football League's case, the original AFL went bankrupt, disbanded, and totally ceased to exist as its assets were put up on the auction block. When AF1 came along, it was going to form a league whether it won the rights to the AFL name or not. It's another case of new and preexisting teams coming together to form something that had never before existed. And as a brand new league, its single-entity structure sets itself apart as radically different from the original. The new AFL system and framework are far too different for it to be considered the same as the old league. Going from multiple individual entities to one single legal property that owns all its teams is a dramatic shift that is not business as usual. Altogether it seems like enough justification to form a new AFL article. --Blackbox77 (talk) 19:39, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
A few discussions took place here. Like I was saying during those discussions a year ago, after the assets were bought by AF1 and they renamed themselves the AFL, they used terms like the AFL was "returning" after being on "hiatus" rather than portraying themselves as a brand new league, so it doesn't really matter what our opinions are on how it played out, because that would be original research. Tampabay721 (talk) 20:19, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Someone update the map of franchise locations please[edit]

I'm asking someone to update the map of franchise locations, please, with the Tulsa Talons moving to San Antonio. I would attempt it but I have no idea how to do it, and actually I'm surprised that it's been this long since the move has happened and no AFL fans have corrected this. Seems like there's enough of a fanbase that someone would be on top of this. Thanks, and sorry I can't do this myself. (talk) 22:07, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Tampabay721 (talk) 23:06, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
T'anks a bunch! (talk) 00:35, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Hey I don't know what happened really, but I guess a bot or something did some sort of procedure or something, and now the map for the locations of teams is pretty messed up now and incorrect again. It has locations marked in Tulsa, OK and Dallas, TX, both of which don't have a team anymore or right now and the location marker for the San Antonio Talons isn't there, although the "Talons" label is. Either way, all of the labels are placed too far away from the location markers, or at least I think so and expect others would agree as well. I wrote the original request to update the maps, and now again I'm asking for someone try and fix the map. I tried looking into correcting the image but I couldn't really understand how to do it correctly, so anyone that could do it or help would be much appreciated. Thanks. (talk) 20:11, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, guess I sorta figured something out, but I'm not exactly sure how "Kosher" what I did is and if some Wikipedians will have a problem with what I did. So if I did something "bad/wrong," my apologies and again do whatever you think is right but that will keep the map accurate. (talk) 20:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Gridiron Enterprises[edit]

Gridiron Enterprises is a holding company for some Arena trademarks, not a "related competition" as in the infobox -- maybe a better term would be "related enterprise" or "related organization". When extant, af2 was a "related competition". (talk) 00:58, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

First test game[edit]

Did not the first test game involve the "Miami Vise" rather than the Rockford Metros? (talk) 00:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Suspended vs. Folded Teams =[edit]

Should the Massachusetts Marauders, Fort Worth Cavalry and Toronto Phantoms be moved from the "Suspended" to the "Folded" columns? I understand that maybe they "announced" they suspended at the time, but, after about 10+ years, those franchises are essentially dead (especially since the league "returned" in its new ownership form). I agree with "suspended" if a team did come back later on, or for teams in the last 1-2 years who announced "suspended" and they might come back... but for those three, it seems like it is more accurate to say they 'folded'. Dletter (talk) 15:36, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Old NBC TV contract[edit]

There is now nothing in the article about the fateful NBC contract which totally changed the league for a while and arguably led to its overexpansion and bankruptcy. While operative, it caused the season to be moved up to start immediately after the end of the NFL season with the Super Bowl and put many more games on Sunday afternoons than had been traditional for the AFL. Former Cowboys star Michael Irvin was the lead studio analyst, and the league received the "bigtime treatment". (There was even at least one "doubleheader Sunday" where NBC devoted its entire Sunday afternoon proramming to the league as if it were the NFL.) During this time, exposure, if not interest, were at an all-time high, and the league reached its maximum size with regard to number of teams. While it is arguable that the article in the past might have overempasized this era, as currently constituted it is as if it never actually even happened, which is hardly the case. 2600:1004:B11A:3E3:4055:683D:4961:AE7E (talk) 03:30, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

This discrepancy seems to have been corrected. 2600:1004:B16C:13DB:4D91:BAEB:29B8:9BD (talk) 03:09, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
Looks like all references to NBC have been removed again, and the league's story is once again incomplete. Sheesh, is there some NBC employee out there who is trying to prevent it from even being remembered that the AFL had a contract with NBC? 2600:1004:B15D:B6F9:5160:C221:46F2:86B3 (talk) 03:50, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

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Strike - nearly cancelled Orlando/Pittsburgh game - chaos in the league[edit]

Just noticed that this is not covered at all in the article, but it was a turning point for the league as they have had declining # of teams since that event. The Predators lost a significant number of season ticket holders because of it, and have never recovered. --Trödel 11:47, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

When was that? I know that a Cleveland–Pittsburg game back in 2012 was cancelled when the Cleveland players staged a one-day strike over late pay, but when was their an Oflando game that had similar problems? oknazevad (talk) 12:03, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
It was the first game of the season in 2012 rumors game would be cancelled (more rumors), players threatened to not come out on the field for the 1st televised game on the NFL network so Pittsburgh owners fired them during the pre-game meal (there is some question whether Orlando did too before the players union declared a strike), AFLPU declared all teams on strike (then reportedly retracted), players from Tampa Bay/Chicago play in a game the next night, Rattlers worried about strike the next day too. The Orlando/Pittsburgh game was awful. And the tactic to get thousands of fans to the game in the arena (and have NFL Network ready to go) and then strike was a mistake especially since they didn't have the player's support to make it stick, and the fan base never returned. --Trödel 13:48, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Wow, what cluster-f. Yeah, it seems like everyone was clueless on that one. However, without reliable, secondary sources making such a cause-and-effect connection between the strike/no strike mess and the declining fortunes in the years since, it's WP:SYNTH, and can't go in the article. oknazevad (talk) 14:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Agreed that we can't draw or even imply there is a connection, but I think that the constant flux of whether there was going to be replacement players/games called off/etc between March 6 and approximately Jun 1st when they finally signed the collective bargaining agreement is notable (and there are plenty of reliable sources documenting it) that I was surprised that the chaos from the beginning of 2012 season is not even mentioned. Came here first in case there was consensus reason for it.
To restate, I'm proposing that we include a paragraph about the strike/no-strike Season Opener and the chaos and rumors regarding a potential strike at the beginning of the 2012 season. --Trödel 14:55, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
That I think is a reasonable thing to add. It was definitely a notable event in the history of the league. oknazevad (talk) 19:14, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

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"Entity" model?[edit]

The article as currently edited suggests that the league now operates under the "entity" rather than the "franchise" model, but otherwise seems to indicate that this is untrue. The league is said to be at times (since the bankruptcy and revival) searching for new "ownership" groups to buy various teams and the article also states that Ron Jaworski is an "owner" of the Philadelphia team; neither of these would seem to be factual if the league were in fact operated on the entity model. Is it possible that this was discussed as one of the potential ways by which the league could be brought back but then was not implemented? Or WAS implemented temporarily and then dropped in favor of a return to the franchise model? 2600:1004:B16D:C243:B126:ED85:98AF:55D6 (talk) 04:16, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

The "single entity" model, to use the correct term, still has owners, it's just that they buy a share of the league, which is a single business entity, and in return are given operational control over an individual team, which is an operating division of the league. This instead of buying a club that is a member of the league, which is an association of the member clubs. Though there are legal differences, and conceivably the single entity model allows for more control over the teams (ensuring some level of parity and spending control), in practice, they're more alike than not, So when they talk about finding ownership groups, what they're looking for is a group to become part owners of the league in exchange for operating a given team. As far as I've been able to find, the AFL still uses that model. oknazevad (talk) 06:16, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

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