Talk:Ariana Grande

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Former good article nominee Ariana Grande was a Music good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
July 1, 2015 Good article nominee Not listed
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Ethnicity[edit]

After the well-publicized tweet indicating that she was Italian, Grande tweeted this in 2014, indicating that she had found out that her grandparents were "heavily greek and part north african." I'm not sure how reliable or relevant any of her tweets are about her ethnicity, but I'm leaving this here if anyone wants to look into it. EricEnfermero (Talk) 05:29, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

She was saying that although her grandparents all came from Italy, her DNA chart shows that, like many Sicilians, she has some Greek/North African DNA, as well as Italian. See later tweeted this follow-up to clarify. More recently, she has confirmed that she identifies as Italian here and here. She continues to be identified as Italian in the press, for example in Billboard, the Belfast Telegraph and Contact Music. -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:22, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Someone more recently restored the quote that grande is of "half Sicilian and half Abruzzese" descent. This does not add anything important to our more general statement that she is of Italian descent, and it only confuses the issue discussed above. I think it is not helpful to include that quote. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:47, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

  • I agree – and it's the reason I took the sentence out. It's also not the clearest quote I've ever seen ("half Abruzzese"?): when a quote raises more questions than it answers, it's probably not worth including. – SchroCat (talk) 20:13, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Voice[edit]

The claim that Ms Grande has a four octave vocal range is ludicrous. Most opera singers would sing over a range of two octaves and a range of three would be exception. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baroquesmguy (talkcontribs) 03:36, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

The sources cited state this information. If you have better sources that dispute it, please present them. As a matter of fact, however, Grande's recordings demonstrate an unusually broad range, due to her use of whistle register. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:53, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Terry-Thomas, for what it's worth, had a range of four-and-a-half octaves. – SchroCat (talk) 20:14, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Edit Request[edit]

"Grande was raised a Roman Catholic but abandoned Catholicism during the reign of Pope Benedict,[156] citing opposition to the church's stance on homosexuality,[5][157] noting that her brother, Frankie is gay."

This feels like whitewashing. In the sources given she says, "‘[The church] said Spongebob Squarepants is gay and he’s a sinner and he should burn in hell. And Harry Potter was a sin. And working women. I was like “Enough! First the gays, then Spongebob and now Harry Potter? Get out my house!” I was not having it. And the working woman thing? It was a moment for me. I needed something else to believe in,’ she ranted."

Why be selective? Include all the information, even if she is spouting misinformation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.144.32.45 (talk) 11:20, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Selective is exactly what we should be doing: this is a summary article that focuses on the important and ignores the trivial. Adding the info you've cited leans too much toward the trivial. – SchroCat (talk) 11:23, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Only focusing on the homosexual part is misleading. She said some stupid shit and you're trying to cover it up because you know how idiotic it makes her look. [This comment was added by 95.144.32.45 (talk) on 30 June 2016]
Please sign your Talk page comments by adding four tildes, like this: ~~~~ . We do not quote all the random comments that people make on their social media or to the press. This is an encyclopedia, so we only include important, noteworthy information. I agree with SchroCat that the material in the quote that you cite above is not encyclopedic, except with respect to explaining why Grande made the significant decision to leave the religion in which she was raised. Therefore, I Oppose your edit request. Thanks. Ssilvers (talk) 19:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)


Occupations[edit]

Why wouldn't Grande be considered a songwriter or fashion designer? I've added my edits and they were removed so I'm wondering why she wouldn't be called these things. Also, Nicki Minaj would be an associated act, because Grande is credited as one on Minaj's Wiki page. Thanks. --DangerousWomanAri (talk) 10:53, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I am glad you have finally made it to the talk page. I have removed your edit again on two grounds. Firstly because, as per WP:STATUS QUO, the original version should remain while a change is being discussed, and secondly because this article is a biography of a living person. We have higher standards of referencing on these articles in order to protect both the subjects and Wikipedia. Not all the information you have added is supported by the text as it currently stands, and will need further citations if it is to remain in the future.
The information you added to the IB is more fancruft than anything else, and isn't - in my opinion at least - worth adding; "less is more" is an adage that is also pertinent when dealing with IBs too. (Instrument: Vocals is one example) If an entry in an IB raises more questions than it answers it should probably be left out, and I would think "fashion designer" as an occupation fits that bill. Genre of "Dance-pop" is unsupported by any sources within the text, as is Minaj as an "associated act" (and it matters little what Minaj's article says). Others may well have differing points of view, but that's my thoughts on your additions. - SchroCat (talk) 11:17, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
Hello, DangerousWomanAri. I agree with SchroCat that, with respect to the Infobox, less is more. WP:INFOBOX says: "The less information [an Infobox] contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance." This is very important: When you ask a question on the Talk page, give other editors a few days to respond. Many people do not work on Wikipedia every day, and Talk page discussions often move slowly. Please be patient on Wikipedia. To answer your questions: First, whether Grande is considered a "songwriter" as one of her *main* occupations is not totally clear at this point. Although she is one of several writers on some of her songs, it is hard to say whether she is a significant contributor to those songs. Per WP:CONSENSUS, lets hear from more users on this topic and see if we can come to an agreement on the issue. As for fashion designer, she is NOT a fashion designer. She has dabbled in fashion design. If she spent a very significant part of her time designing fashion, that would be a different story. Also, associated acts are usually not included in infoboxes. If she and Minaj always toured together, or were a group, like the Spice Girls, then she might be mentioned in the infobox. But in this case, they have merely included each other in a few songs, and this can be mentioned further down in the body of the article. Please read WP:CONSENSUS for a description of how people resolve discussions on Wikipedia Talk pages. All the best! -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:47, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2016[edit]

Ariana Grande's real name is Alhabibi Kula Lumpur I saw it on facebook and some comments said it's true


112.205.223.160 (talk) 07:37, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done - facebook is not a reliable source - Arjayay (talk) 09:23, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Cancelled concert Not invited to sing[edit]

@Ssilvers: I believe that this does not violate WP:BLP and has encyclopedic value. It shows one of the real-life consequences of the controversy being discussed. I understand that cancelled concerts don't always merit mention, but I think this one is notable in its connection to the controversy. FallingGravity (talk) 06:41, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Nothing was cancelled; she just was not scheduled to perform on this occasion. In addition to the BLP guideline, I do not think it is of encyclopedic importance: See WP:RECENT and WP:WEIGHT. There is plenty there already about the donut incident; possibly too much. Grande released her third studio album this year, and four of the songs on it charted, and people want to spend more ink in the article to expand the discussion about the donut incident? I don't see how that comports with WP:WEIGHT. -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:14, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't see how WP:RECENT factors in here since it happened about a year ago, although the information was recently leaked. Regarding, WP:WEIGHT, all I currently read in the section on the scandal is how some people (including Ariana Grande) made fun of it. This incident reveals a real consequence that Ariana faced from the scandal, so I think it adds something new to the section and maintains balance. FallingGravity (talk) 07:34, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
The news of this non-event is out this week. That is why someone tried to change the article today, so it is obviously WP:RECENTism; plus the vetting of Grande happened when the donut incident was Fresh ... er ... Recent. There is no significant consequence: no performance was cancelled; she simply did not perform *again* at the White House on that one occasion. She has performed there previously, and this insignificant incident will fade over time. The only reason that this "news" has been picked up beyond Gawker and the gossip press is because of the interest in the press in the disclosures by wikileaks of hacked DNC emails in an election year; again, WP:RECENT. It would be fine with me if we deleted all the stuff regarding parodies of the incident, but we'd have to get a consensus for that. -- Ssilvers (talk) 08:30, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I think there is probably enough on the incident. Her not being asked to sing isn't noteworthy enough IMO. – SchroCat (talk) 09:12, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Ricky Alvarez[edit]

Why Ricky isnt shown as her (ex-)boyfriend? EDigen (talk) 21:38, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Because he is not a notable, blue-linked person. If they got married, of course, we would mention him, or if they keep dating for a few years, then I guess we would mention him. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Several performances in External links?[edit]

Seems like a professional résumé where you show the best of you while attempting to apply for a job. Why are Youtube links of her performances in that section? Cornerstonepicker (talk) 16:17, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Why not? There is nothing to stop us linking to examples of their work, so people unfamiliar with the artiste can see them in action. – SchroCat (talk) 16:38, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
This is an article about a performer. We illustrate it with photographs of her in performance, and we include links to a few particularly interesting videos that illustrate the scope and progress of her career, especially ones that are not on her own official YouTube Vevo channel. This seems is basic to me good practice. Obviously, an encyclopedia biography and a resume will contain many of the same things. What Wikipedia should include is information that is interesting to a general reader of this encyclopedia. We do not want to mention every little radio interview or promotional appearance, but we do want to include some links to representative or particularly interesting clips of the performer doing what makes her notable or that vividly illustrate her progress from her early career to more recent work. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:25, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
The point is that wikipedia policy very strongly discourages external links. Please refer to WP:ELNO. If these video are so important to the article, a free version should be uploaded to Wikimedia and then linked to there. Nyth63 11:57, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
Nyth83, Just a few pointers to some errors in what you've written (in AGF, I'm sure). ELNO is a guideline, not a policy; the guideline suggests we should "generally avoid" certain types of links, and in no way "very strongly discourages" them. Just because something is not a copyright infringement, it does not mean we are able to upload to Commons (that's akin to saying something is viewable on television, therefore I can upload it here: it's completely wrong in terms of our policies (and guidelines) and general copyright law). In terms of the links in this article, are you claiming that the links in question fail one or more of the criteria listed at ELNO? - SchroCat (talk) 12:20, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
No, I did not review it myself, I did not care that much in this case. I was just pointing out that there are GUIDELINES that can be referred to in situations like this and not just rely on POV type statements like "This seems basic to me". (Of course there are yet more GUIDELINES about WP:POV). The GUIDELINES were created to help address issues of copyright and also to help generate some uniformity of style all across Wikipedia. If the original commenter has concerns about the appropriateness of the external links they can review and quote any appropriate GUIDELINE they believe is relevant. I just wanted them and the first responder to be aware that they have other resources available as to what is appropriate and not just guesswork. (PS, What the heck is AGF?) Nyth63 13:54, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
Can I suggest that next time you want to make definitive statements (like "wikipedia policy very strongly discourages external links"), you should make sure that you have read the relevant information beforehand? It's easy to criticise statements like "This seems basic to me", but when you make fundamental errors of fact in your own statements, you do leave yourself wide open both to wholescale corrections, and to it being pointed out that the initial poster has made their judgement based on their own POV. Of course, in this case, the question of copyright is a moot one: the links all point towards official YouTube channels, so there is no infringement here. If either you or the original poster wish to make any comments about the individual links as compared against the list at ELNO, they can be discussed further. - SchroCat (talk) 14:06, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
What were the criteria used for choosing these 4 videos? If we expect uniformity of style all accross WP, there's an issue with this. This is the only article (bio) featuring a list of performances (from Youtube) in EL. Editors from FA and GA won't include it in those articles, for a reason. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 14:09, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
As I noted above, I selected clips that are representative or particularly interesting clips of the performer doing what makes her notable or that vividly illustrate her progress from her early career to more recent work. Just like all editorial decisions that we make here on Wikipedia, we include content about a subject that is the most noteworthy and interesting to our users over the long term. We exclude gossip and recentisim, like who a performer is dating. See WP:NOTEWORTHY and WP:WEIGHT, as well as our other content policies. -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:22, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) "Uniformity" is a relative term in WP (and I really wouldn't base your arguments on what Nyth83 has written, given the numerous errors he's come up with!) I also wouldn't make claims like "This is the only article featuring a list of performances (from Youtube) in EL" (are you sure? Have you checked them all? I've seen several articles with similar links in them). Your last sentence makes no sense, I'm afraid: who says editors from FA and GA (whoever they may be) wouldn't include it? - SchroCat (talk) 14:19, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
In biographies if it wasn't clear enough. FA would never include that, see for youself trying to add it. I'd like to know the criteria used for choosing these 4 videos. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 14:32, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
There is no ban on putting links like this through at FA. Have you taken an article through the FA process and had the link removed? - SchroCat (talk) 14:35, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
I would completely ignore any comment here from SchroCat as they do not seem to be capable of making reasoned augments without making personal attacks. Nyth63 22:00, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
Errrmmm... Could you identify where the supposed personal attack is? I have made absolutely no attacks here whatsoever, and your accusation is a calumny. – SchroCat (talk) 22:10, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2016[edit]

Add 'Scream Queens (Season 1)' to the Television credits. -- Barryanoland (talk) 18:58, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

It is already there. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:20, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Mac Miller[edit]

Mac Miller is her new boyfriend, could you add him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by EDigen (talkcontribs) 14:42, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

As Ssilvers told you above regarding Ricky Alvarez, if they get married or keep dating for a number of years, we can add him. At this point, there's simply nothing notable about the relationship. -- Irn (talk) 15:01, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Irn, is there a requirement to how long the person dates someone in order for it to be added? I'm not 100% sure, I'm new-ish to Wikipedia, but to my knowledge - there is no requirement. As her previous relationships have also been put into her Wikipedia page. In addition, the difference between Ricky Alvarez and Mac Miller is that no one knows who Ricky Alvarez is, he is not as famous as Mac Miller. Thoughts? AjayTO (talk) 19:44, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct that there is no policy or guideline dealing with this specifically, and as far as I can tell, there's no stated consensus or at the very least, it's applied inconsistently (as you aptly pointed out). If that is the case that there's no consensus, we should probably have this conversation at the BLP policy talk page.
That said, the overriding policy here is the living person's policy, which states explicitly, "Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid" and later gives an example: ""John Doe had a messy divorce from Jane Doe." Is the divorce important to the article, and was it published by third-party reliable sources? If not, leave it out. If so, avoid use of "messy" and stick to the facts: "John Doe and Jane Doe divorced."" WP:NOTNEWS is also relevant: "Even when an individual is notable, not all events they are involved in are."
Taking all this together, my take away is that if a relationship isn't a significant part of a person's biography, it's best to leave it out. (In other words, if they date for a long time or become engaged, we'll have reason to include it.) This is especially true when we end up with a gossip-y list of all the relationships a person has been in, as we have here (which I hadn't previously noticed, and which I absolutely think should be removed). -- Irn (talk) 21:03, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Irn. Let's wait for a year, and if Miller and Grande are still dating, we can add it then. Short relationships are trivia that runs afoul of both the BLP guidline and WP:UNDUE. AjayTO, unless and until you can build a consensus for your opinion here, your addition of the material into the article is WP:Edit warring. Irn, what, exactly, do you think should be removed? -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:20, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
@Ssilvers: if the only thing we have to judge the significance of a relationship is its length, I would personally rather see only relationships of at least 1.5 to 2 years, but I see that you've suggested waiting one year for the current relationship, and I can live with that as an arbitrary standard. Either way, in this case it would leave only her relationship with Graham Phillips. (Unless, of course, we have reason other than the length of the relationship to think that any of the other relationships was particularly important.) -- Irn (talk) 21:47, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Certainly if the person is not a notable (blue-linked) person, I would agree that 2 years is a minimum, but for notable people, at least for now, I think one year is a reasonable rule of thumb. We say that she dated Jai Brooks for a year and then later dated him for a further three months. And though she dated Big Sean for only eight months, they cut several songs together, so I wonder if that makes the relationship more noteworthy? I agree that we should delete Sykes, and I'll do it now. As Grande gets older, and if she gets married, then I would support dropping most of these youthful relationships from the bio as, basically, superseded. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:58, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Good call, I had confused the rekindling with Brooks for Sykes, so that looks good. And I think differentiating between relationships with notable individuals and with non-notable individuals also makes sense.
I can see how doing songs together makes an 8-month relationship more important. Generally with BLPs, I like to err on the side of privacy, so I would prefer to see it removed, but I recognize that that might be more my own bias against the inclusion of this sort of information in general in BLPs, so if you think that it makes the relationship noteworthy enough for inclusion, I won't argue against that. Cheers, -- Irn (talk) 22:19, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
I'll leave Big Sean in for now, unless others think he ought to come out. But, as I said, as the years go by, if Grande has more major relationships or gets married, then we should revisit these early relationships and trim away the least noteworthy ones. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:30, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Hm, okay, seeing as Ssilvers stated that Big Sean had several songs with her. Won't we talk about the fact that Ariana Grande's debut single was in fact, with Miller? They've had several songs together and remixes. But I can agree on the fact that they haven't been together a significant amount of time. Therefore, we will leave it out for now. AjayTO (talk) 16:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Mac and Ariana have two songs now, The Way and My Favorite Part, so I don't get why Big Sean is written, but Mac Miller not? EDigen (talk) 14:39, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Because Mac and Ariana have not been together for a significant amount of time. See WP:BLP, WP:NOTE and WP:UNDUE for more information. Three factors should be considered: A long relationship or marriage, a blue-linked suitor, and, lots of work together. We do mention Miller above when we mention "The Way". -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:04, 17 September 2016 (UTC)