Talk:Armenian Genocide denial

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WP:COMPETENCE[edit]

The Advertisement/Time DVD incident section/subsection (it's both!) is simply incomprehensible. I'd try to fix it but I can't even make out what it's trying to say.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:02, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

There will be plenty of material about the incident from when it happened (including those that did describe it as a propaganda dvd). I hope to expand that section to include genocide denialist books and such like. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:38, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

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consensus is a bit ostentatious, don't you think?[edit]

there is no academic consensus. there are no sources to it being an academic consensus. it is an accusation because armenia rejects all proposals to create an international committee to investigate.

the assumption of genocide serves as blackmail.

also if the massacre is proven to be a genocide it must be attributed to ottoman empire.

also kurds who supported the alleged genocide are lacking from this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.55.133.135 (talk) 19:29, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

It is attributed to the Ottoman Empire, of which Kurds were also citizens. As for the consensus:[1]

The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:

1) Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.
2) The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
3) In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world’s foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.
4) 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the “incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide” and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.
5) The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), and the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.
6) Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas’s Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity."

Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 22:43, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Israeli president Peres[edit]

The quote saying the Israeli president rejected the similarities of genocide is not true.

Although Peres himself did not retract the statement, the Israeli Foreign Ministry later issued a cable to its missions which stated that "The minister absolutely did not say, as the Turkish news agency alleged, 'What the Armenians underwent was a tragedy, not a genocide.

Yair, Auron (2003). "Chapter 5 – The Armenian Genocide's Recognition by States: The Israeli Aspect". The Banality of Denial: Israel and the Armenian Genocide (1st ed.). New Brunswick (U.S.A.): Transaction Publishers. p. 127. ISBN 0-7658-0191-4. Nocturnal781 (talk) 18:58, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Peres was President of Israel, if he didn't said such statement there should be official denial of it issued publicly, either by him or his officials. I challenge you to find any official source. Boaqua (talk) 13:59, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
The Google book is a more reliable source and it specifically states that there was an official Israeli denial which strongly refuted the Turkish allegations: click on this link. This article is under 1RR restriction and you just broke it to impose your POV. Dr. K. 18:54, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Books written by 3rd party authors can't be presented as official statements of the government. As I said, Peres was President of Israel, and if there was an official denial of his words then it should be available on the Israeli Foreign Ministry and news websites. Boaqua (talk) 20:03, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Moreover, the author of that book admits that officials didn't issue a denial to the Turkish news agency and Peres didn't retract his statement. Boaqua (talk) 20:04, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Books written by 3rd party authors can't be presented as official statements of the government. I don't think you understand who wrote the book. Yair Auron is a genocide scholar, a recognised expert and a far better source than the nationalist-COI-ridden Hurriyet. Your POV that he is just a 3rd party author is unsustainable. As I said, Peres was President of Israel, and if there was an official denial of his words then it should be available on the Israeli Foreign Ministry and news websites. Yair Auron explains that the Israeli Foreign Ministry is not in the habit of issuing official denials. Moreover, the author of that book admits that officials didn't issue a denial to the Turkish news agency and Peres didn't retract his statement. That's your POV take of what Auron writes in that reliable source. You have run out of arguments and you have broken the one-revert rule imposed by the Arbitration Committee on this article. I advise you to rethink your tactics. Dr. K. 20:17, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Yair Auron is not a government official of Israel and he is not in position to issue statements on behalf of Israeli government. Please provide official source which denies Peres's statement. Boaqua (talk) 21:16, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
In Wikipedia we go be scholarship and WP:RELIABLESOURCES. Not by original research, POV and edit-warring. You are in no position to ignore and dismiss the findings of a distinguished Genocide scholar. Just that act, betrays the size of your POV. You stalling tactics are noted but they are not persuasive. Dr. K. 21:33, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Yair Auron is a great scholar, and yet he is not a representative of Israeli government and can't make statements on behalf of Israeli government. Besides, in that book that you linked he clearly says that Israeli officials didn't issue a denial to the Turkish news agency and Peres didn't retract his statement. Boaqua (talk) 22:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Yair Auron is a great scholar, and yet he is not a representative of Israeli government and can't make statements on behalf of Israeli government. If that's what you understood from the page I linked to, then, perhaps, you need to read it again. Besides, in that book that you linked he clearly says that Israeli officials didn't issue a denial to the Turkish news agency and Peres didn't retract his statement. Cherrypicking two sentences out of context from the whole page, and trying to make a point out of that, is the very definition of WP:UNDUE and WP:POV. Anyone who read the whole page, and understood it, would not even come close to making the points you are attempting to make. Dr. K. 06:05, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
I think that if there is doubt that he actually said this, it should not be there as a quote. Whether we have in the article content about the statement and the denial by others that the statement was made, depends on its notability. If it is only in the hurriyet daily news, that does not suggest notability. However, if the alleged statement made a big impact then I think there is a place for this content. Even if Perez did not personally say it, or it is a distortion of what he actually said. the use of the statement and purpose of distorting it (If that is what happened) is still part of genocide denial. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:54, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Here is an interview with Yair Auron from 2005 where he confirms that Peres said "It is a tragedy what the Armenians went through but not a genocide." https://web.archive.org/web/20081223161200/http://www.thinking-east.net/index0c56.html?option=com_content&task=view&id=130&Itemid=56 Auron says: "Shimon Peres, the former foreign minister, before an official visit to Turkey, said that what happened was not a genocide. This was active denial. Until then, we did not say it was a genocide but we did not say it was not a genocide. But then we said it was not a genocide-it was a tragedy, but not a genocide." Boaqua (talk) 15:22, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Also I didn't find any credible sources that would deny Peres's statement. Israeli officials and Peres didn't issue official statement of denial for sure. Boaqua (talk) 15:29, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
According to reliable sources, there is a dispute as to the actual circumstances and actions surrounding the statement attributed to Peres. You cannot attribute this to Peres the way you do, only quoting cherrypicked sources and ignoring other events and sources quoting contradicting statements. Your edit is POV and you currently have no consensus to reinstate this material. Same goes for your formulation of the Bernard Lewis statement which is WP:UNDUE and contains original research WP:OR. This article is under active arbitration remedies. According to the notice at the top of this page, do not reinstate any part of your edit without obtaining prior consensus on this talkpage. Otherwise you will be reported. Dr. K. 19:13, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
I asked you multiple times to provide any official source where Israel is denying that President Peres's statement, as you depict. But you failed to do so. Boaqua (talk) 19:47, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Boaqua, it's pretty dubious how relevant a big quote from Peres is here. As it stands the Israeli/Holocaust section is a bit big, giving the impression that Wikipedia is asserting that Israeli government officials get some important say on the matter simply for being Israeli (false), and their views shouldn't take the place of those of actual experts. It's also misleading. Peres said that in 2001, and Israeli opinion has changed since then with many people souring on Turkey in general due to Erdogan. Peres also is (*was, sadly) quite a controversial guy in Israel despite being quite beloved outside of it.--Yalens (talk) 19:53, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Shimon Peres was an Israeli Foreign Minister and then President of Israel till 2014. His perspective represents the Israeli stance on the issue. Therefore, it is important to include his statements. Boaqua (talk) 20:07, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Not in an enormous block quote.--Yalens (talk) 20:16, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
Enormous block quote is justified as the statement has a big significance: it was the first time when Israeli senior government official denied Armenian genocide publicly. Boaqua (talk) 20:31, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I agree with Yalens. Dr. K. 20:58, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

To summarize points from this discussion:

1) There is no official Israeli government source that denies Shimon Peres's statement "What the Armenians underwent was a tragedy, not a genocide."

2) When Israeli government denies incorrect statements, there is at least one news article about it. For example:

"President Shimon Peres called Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Sunday and denied a report in Ha'aretz in which he was quoted as saying a peace agreement with the Palestinians was not possible in the foreseeable future" http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Abbas-Peres-denied-saying-that-a-peace-agreement-was-impossible

"The office of Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman Tuesday night denied a report quoting him as saying that Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas wrecked a deal to free kidnapped soldier" http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/134343

I couldn't find any news about denial of Shimon Peres's statement by Israeli officials.

3) A book by Yair Auron states that Israeli Foreign Ministry issued a cable to its missions with denial of Peres's statement, but doesn't give any sources or names.

4) On the same page the author says that officials didn't issue a denial to the Turkish news agency and Peres didn't retract his statement.

5) A year after the release of the book, Yair Auron, gives an interview where he reaffirms Peres's statement:

"Shimon Peres, the former foreign minister, before an official visit to Turkey, said that what happened was not a genocide. This was active denial. Until then, we did not say it was a genocide but we did not say it was not a genocide. But then we said it was not a genocide-it was a tragedy, but not a genocide." https://web.archive.org/web/20081223161200/http://www.thinking-east.net/index0c56.html?option=com_content&task=view&id=130&Itemid=56

Boaqua (talk) 17:28, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

You are talking about a statement Peres made a decade and a half ago, and trying to place an enormous block quote in a section that is already too long. IF (big if here) no one can find an Israeli statement denying it (I'm quite busy at the moment), the most that would be reasonable to place on the page would be a short statement like "In 2001, President Peres issued a denial saying the events were a "tragedy" but not "genocide".<citation>" and then end. stuff. A statement from a controversial (but likeable in my opinion) dead dude from 16 years ago should not get a block quote, and shouldn't get more than one line. Why not? Because the Israeli stance, both in public opinion and in state position is extremely complicated (Israeli scholarship is less complicated and tends to back the view that it was indeed a genocide, which has been to some degree covered on this page), and yet at the same time the page is not about Israel, so we can't go into full detail because it would take up a very disproportionate amount of space. Just because Jews and some people who later became prominent Israelis were affected by the Holocaust does not make them or their descendants the ultimate arbiters of the validity of Holocaust comparisons, because that will always be subjective. Their views also aren't more relevant than the views of Germans, Georgians, Kurds, Armenians, Turks, etc. On the condition that we can't find an RS that the statement was retracted (it's very possible it was, I haven't looked at it thoroughly yet), I could accept a compromise with a single sentence like the example I gave above. Note that I also can't speak for other people involved in the discussion here like Dr.K and others (who may know more about this specific incident than myself). --Yalens (talk) 18:22, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Nope, wait, the statement was clearly retracted: "After a lot of protests poured into Israeli embassies... Peres claimed (through his officials) to have been misquoted... in the Turkish press." It then said that what Peres actually said was that it should be left to historians not politicians, that Israel doesn't like the Holocaust comparison, that Israel takes no sense and that The minister did not say, as the Turkish news agency alleged, "What happened to the Armenians was a genocide, not a tragedy". As usual, Israel is being complicated. In short, it doesn't belong on the page at all. Even if Auron seems to believe that Peres did in fact say that (which I haven't checked...), this does not change the murkiness. Our choices are to either portray the episode as the murky and complicated incident that it was (rather than cherrypicking), or omit it entirely. Given that making the Israel section larger is massively undue, you know where I stand. --Yalens (talk) 18:33, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Thank you very much Yalens. Your points are very well taken and they reflect my thoughts perfectly. Thank you for saving me the time to type an almost identical response to yours. :) Dr. K. 20:11, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
So you didn't even bother reading what I supplied, answering with "statement was retracted"? Ok. Please provide official/direct source backing that. Boaqua (talk) 20:51, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
He doesn't have to provide anything. Yalens has explained in detail, as have I, why your edit is unacceptable. Now it is time to stop this disruption and walk away from this discussion. Dr. K. 21:45, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
I'll repeat myself:

1) Shimon Peres was an Israeli Foreign Minister and then President of Israel, so when talking about Israeli stance his statements about Armenian genocide are important.

2) There is not one single official source where it is stated that Israel denied Peres's statement.

On the other hand, you couldn't come up with any objective reason why Peres's statement shouldn't added.

Boaqua (talk) 23:29, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

You can repeat yourself as many times as you like. I will not answer any longer, because your refusal to get the point is your problem and not mine. But I remind you of two things: 1. You don't have consensus to add this edit to the article. 2. As noted above, per WP:AA2, if you try to add this to the article without consensus, you will be blocked. Best of luck. Dr. K. 23:42, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
I think that says it all. If you object against my edit but fail to backup your objections with reliable sources, any further discussion is futile. I'm restoring my edit. Boaqua (talk) 04:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Make no mistake. As soon as you restore your edit without consensus I will report you for an Arbitration enforcement block and you will be blocked. Read the notice at the top of this page:

Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion). If in doubt, don't make the edit.

Your call. Dr. K. 04:33, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Comparison with Holocaust and Israeli stance[edit]

Added viewpoints of Shimon Peres and Bernard Lewis to the relevant section.

Shimon Peres was an Israeli Foreign Minister and then President of Israel, so when talking about Israeli stance his statements about Armenian genocide are important.

Bernard Lewis is a British American historian specializing in Middle Eastern History, so it makes sense to include his comparisons of Armenian genocide with Holocaust as well. Boaqua (talk) 11:00, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Please stop your obtuse disruption. You have not addressed any of my points and you keep edit-warring your disputed material without any justification or any WP:CONSENSUS. Since you ignored my multiple warnings I will report you at WP:3RRN for edit-warring on this Arbcom DS-enforced WP:AA2 article. Dr. K. 11:18, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
All your points were completely baseless. I already explained why. Boaqua (talk) 04:25, 3 May 2017 (UTC)