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"a term strongly disliked by all the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians"
This sentence is fairly exaggerated and mostly promoted by nationalist Greeks who consider the Arvanites as one of the pillars of Greek independence. The sentence is created out of nationalist Greeks prejudice towards ethnic Albanians and partly because nationalist Greeks consider people of orthodox faith as Greeks. The sentence that assimilated Arvanites consider themselves Greeks doesn't change the fact that the Arvanites as a population group have an ethnic origin and mother tongue completely different from the Greeks. Complete assimilation often means extinction. I ask for a objective source which doesn't stem from Wikipedia or Greek circles to further confirm this theory that the Arvanites object being called Albanians. It's strange for a non-extinct people who speak a own language to feel dislike of their origin that they still keep alive. Silence on this question will be answered with deletion of the sentence. --Albanau (talk) 16:41, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- It's sourced to GHM, in case you hadn't already noticed. Athenean (talk) 17:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- The ref is in the article for crying out loud, in the "Minority" section. Just click on the ref and and you will get the pdf. Your insistence on "no copy from Wikipedia!" (not even sure what that means) is bizarre, but it seems that no one will be able to help you with that. Athenean (talk) 17:43, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- With no copy from Wikipedia I mean't no writing statement taken from texts in the Wikipedia but from the original source (with other words GHM). Are the authors of the writing statement Greeks since GHM is a Greek section of the organization? We should be careful citing Greek sources on this matter since Greeks do not recognize the cultural rights of the Arvanites. --Albanau (talk) 17:53, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- I would give you an example although it is mostly anecdotal evidence. I have personally spoken with a family of Arvanites and they told me themselves how they disliked being labeled as Albanians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 11:50, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
The meaning of "Arvanites" in old sources.
It seems that the article has been locked at an "Albanian" POV. Since much weight is given to early sources, like foreign travellers, it should be added that in that time "Albanian" did not necessarily mean ethnic Albanian. See Arnauts.
- Trikoupis Spyridon, History of the Greek Revolution, 2nd edition, Londond, 1860 volume A', page 24 (in Greek):
"Arvanites were called in the two hegemonies (Moldavia, Vlachia, early 19th c.) the mixed Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians, connected by the same dogma and living by mercenarism".
"In the eithy odd years during which Naples employed light infantry from the Balkans, the troops of the regiment and its successors were known popularly under the three names in addition to the aforementioned camociotti: the seemingly national names of Greci, Macedoni and Albanesi. These, names did not, however, have their later ethnic conotations but were instead stylized terms that described the soldiers' general origins or mode of fighting..."
- Arnaut at the Free Dictionary
- Gordon Thomas, History of the Greek revolution, 1844, London & Edinburgh, 2nd edition, volume 1, page 95.
"Included under the generic name of Arnauts, it was recruited from Roumeliote Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians and Servians, who acted as body-guards to the princes, the great functionaries, and even the simple Boyards."
The book of Anna Comnene, "Alexiad" in chapter 4, 5 and 6 is explaining the meaning of "Albanoi" and "Arvanitai". The "Albanoi" were the Normans who invaded The Balkans "First Norman invasion of the Balkans (1081–1085)" under Robert Guiscard and Bohemund and the "Arbanitai" where the Byzantine peoples that inhabited the area around Dyrrhachium. This invasion and the Battle of Dyrrhachium (1081) where Dyrrhachium fell to Robert Guiscard triggered the migration southwards. The next invasion by the Normans was the "Second Norman invasion of the Balkans (1147–1149)" under Roger II of Sicily and "Third Norman invasion of the Balkans (1185–1186)" where the Normans sacked Thessalonika. In 1272 was the last invasion from Normans under Charles I of Anjou was in he declared himself "King of Albania" (Carolus I, dei gratia rex Siciliae et Albaniae) in February 1272.
As there is not much within the article about Arvanites and their relationship/views (past or present) regarding Greek and Albanian speakers these proposed additions fill that important gap within the article (they are all based on academic material and referenced and do a thorough overview regarding grammar or sentence fixup, expansion etc). I have also placed inline citations within the references. Regarding small references so there won’t be some error message I have made them appear in the talk page as (e.g. <;ref name=Pipa./.>). I have done this way because when a similar process was embarked upon in the Cham Albanians page, it got very messy with proposed additions and hard to get through. Anyway, here are the proposals:
This bit to go under this sentence (my additions in bold).
Arvanites were regarded as ethnically distinct from the Greeks in the 19th century.
Amongst the Arvanites, this difference was expressed in words such as shkljira for a Greek person and shkljerishtë for the Greek language that had until recent decades negative overtones. These words in Arvanitika have their related counterpart in the pejorative term shqa used by Northern Albanians for Slavs.<;ref name=Pipa./.> Ultimately these terms used amongst Albanian speakers originate from the Latin word sclavus which contained the traditional meaning of “the neighbouring foreigner”.
Fix up of this sentence due to my proposed additions (in bold):
With participation in the Greek War of Independence and the Greek Civil War, this has led to increasing assimilation amongst the Arvanites.
This bit to go under this sentence (my additions in bold).
Many Arvanites find the designation "Albanians" offensive as they identify nationally and ethnically as Greeks and not Albanians.
Relations between Arvanites and other Albanian speaking populations have varied over time. During the onset of the Greek war of Independence, Arvanites fought alongside Greek revolutionaries and against Muslim Albanians.<;ref name=Heraclides/.><;ref name=Andromedas.> For example Arvanites participated in the Tripolitsa Massacre of Muslim Albanians, while some Muslim Albanian speakers in the region of Bardounia remained after the war by converting to Orthodoxy and becoming part of the local population. In recent times, Arvanites have expressed mixed views towards Albanian immigrants within Greece. Negative views are perceptions that Albanian immigrants are “communists” arriving from a “backward country”. or an opportune people with questionable morals, behaviors and a disrespect for religion. Whereas other Arvanites during the late 1980s and early 1990s expressed solidarity with Albanian immigrants, due to linguistic similarities and being politically leftist. Relations too between Arvanites and other Orthodox Albanian speaking communities such as those of Greek Epirus are mixed, as they are distrusted regarding religious matters due to a past Albanian Muslim population living amongst them.
Amongst the wider Greek speaking population however, the Arvanites and their language Arvanitika were viewed in past times in a derogatory manner. These views contributed toward shaping negative attitudes held by Arvanites regarding their language and increasing assimilation. In post-dictatorial Greece, the Arvanites have rehabilitated themselves within Greek society through for example the propagation of the Pelasgian theory regarding Arvanite origins.<;ref name=De Rapper/.> The theory created a counter discourse that aimed to give the Arvanites a positive image in Greek history by claiming the Arvanites as the ancestors and relations of contemporary Greeks and their culture.<;ref name=De Rapper/.> The Arvanite revival of the Pelasgian theory has also been recently borrowed by other Albanian speaking populations within and from Albania in Greece to counter the negative image of their communities.
Well i waited and no one bothered to reply regarding these proposals, so i have now i gone strictly by the policy (e.g. Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle). The additions i made are needed in the article to clarify certain matters. One, past and eventual views of the Greek speaking population by the Arvanites, which ties into the process of assimilation/integration in Greek society and explanation of those terms used. The second bit is needed regarding Arvanites and their relationship/views/perceptions and so on regarding other Albanian speaking populations in a historical and contemporary sense (they are after all a historically Albanian speaking population and its important to have that in order to clarify matters.) Also added in bit about Pelasgian theory and how Arvanites have used that to rehabilitate themselves in wider Greek society (important as it was a big thing for them, especially for them is furthering the process of becoming part of Greek society. All sources used are peer reviewed and where possible i have placed online web links for all to check and read themselves.
Total number of Arvanites.
Greek Helsinki is used also here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people_in_Greece .Why did it became a problem now?
https://books.google.al/books?id=yXYKAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA138&dq=arvanites&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Du2OVf_xEoXW7QbPo5moBA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=arvanites&f=false hes been used here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanitika here since a long time.Why did it became a problem now? As for my reported wp:ani It isn;t decided yet. (talk) 10:39, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
For does it claim that Arvanites are 1,6 million in the above link (10%-15% of central-southern Greece is much too lower) ? Also note that tertiary sources should be used with precaution, especially when they lack inline references (who's Agron Alibali by the way?). Can you give full citation from Kormoss ?Alexikoua (talk) 11:39, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
And what's wrong with Greek Helsinki?It is used also in other Wikipedia articles. And what's wrong with this : https://books.google.al/books?id=ibCVBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA62&dq=arvanites++population+estimates&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qr2PVfmQBqiP7Ab6h5T4Bw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=arvanites%20%20population%20estimates&f=false /page 68 ? Rolandi+ (talk) 11:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- 150,000? Sure, this is the second reference you provide and, no wonder, refutes your own arguments.Alexikoua (talk) 12:06, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Even if we use reference like the above one, it can't pass wp:rs, clearly a manifesto of Cham claims by representatives of Cham organizations, not to mention that the specific paper lacks inline references.Alexikoua (talk) 12:09, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
It refers to 1961 (about arvanites) .I used that about chams .It is written by non-chams so it is not a clear cham manifesto.It is a book so it doesn't uses inline references.Some of the book's references are albanians ,but others not. Rolandi+ (talk) 12:15, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
You say that this is a cham manifesto :so why did't you say the same thing about this : According to a Greek politician from the era Iakōbos Rizos-Nerulos, their maternal (primary) language was Greek and they also knew Albanian, (souliotes) .And what about the greek helsinki.It is used at other wikipedia's articles like that .It has inline references and it is neutral .So why did you delete it?Answear all my questions. Rolandi+ (talk) 12:27, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Rolandi
- In case you don't see this on your talk and in reply to you on the issue. Regarding your edits on the matter, i would say that best not to continue. Not that i disagree, but because they are hard to substantiate. Many Orthodox Albanian speakers consider themselves as Greeks. Whether one puts it down to Greek government polices or views that Greek society has held regarding people of a Albanian ethno-cultural heritage is another matter. The point is that one we will never know their 'correct number' and two its most likely that the remaining Albanian speakers (at least those of southern and central Greece) will completely disappear in the next few decades. So going on about numbers becomes a pointless issue. But on a personal note, I have come across many of them here in Melbourne Australia. They have said many things in a frank manner that tallies up with the research of scholars to me regarding their views of Albanians. They said them because they mistook me for someone not of the Balkans area as i look like someone who could be from the Nordic countries. They have always been surprised after i tell them that i am an Albanian and a southerner (a Tosk). Often their reaction has often been you a "Tourkos" or "Tourko-Alvanos" and other negative comments (and that's putting it politely). Such are the views within this community even here in Australia. Its the same thing even in Albania. A sizable part of the Albanian Orthodox community no longer wants to be Albanian today and they genuinely regard themselves as Greeks even from experience being with them,(even in the peer reviewed literature it becoming more apparent). Next Albanian census is going to be quite daunting for those who still adhere (mainly Catholics and Muslims) to a Rilindja version of Albanian identity (going beyond religious differences). I hope i have not offended you, especially if you are from an Orthodox Albanian speaking background, but that is the state of things. Albanian identity is becoming the preserve of mainly the Albanian speakers with a socio-cultural Catholic and Muslim (whether secular, conservative or atheist) background.Resnjari (talk) 12:48, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi Resnjari , Thank you for your help! Many of them but no all of them.However "Chams" doesn't refer to people who call themselves as "albanians " or "greeks".It refers to people who " are a sub-group of Albanians who originally resided in the region of Epirus in northwestern Greece, an area known among Albanians as Chameria." (see Wikipedia).As for Arvanites it isn't important if they call themselves greek or albanian ,they are undoubtely arvanites.
So Alexikoua:You say that this is a cham manifesto :so why did't you say the same thing about this : According to a Greek politician from the era Iakōbos Rizos-Nerulos, their maternal (primary) language was Greek and they also knew Albanian, (souliotes) .And what about the greek helsinki.It is used at other wikipedia's articles like that .It has inline references and it is neutral .So why did you delete it?Answear all my questions. Rolandi+ (talk) 13:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
- Without providing full citation of Kormos, your additions will soon be removed (again). By the way HM doesn't qualify as wp:rs and it's not a secondary reference. If this is used as a reference in other articles, per Wikipedia:Othercrapexists, your arguments are still too weak. Alexikoua (talk) 13:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Rolandi, have a look at the Cham Albanians talk page, i wrote large chunks of it. There used to be a lot of POV there. It took a lot of work and energy there to get the article fixed. With accusations of POV, POV, POV all but one of my edits did not make it (due to "original research reasons" - see Hobhouse, it might interest you.) Regarding numbers of Orthodox Albanian speakers in Greek Epirus, that is more difficult. The person who has access to this material is Lambros Baltsiotis (forget Albanian sources except for Fatos Rrapaj and his Fjalor Onomastik te Epirit book -all accurate though mainly about Muslim Cham villages, some about Orthodox Albanian villages). Baltsiotis wrote a PHD about 13 years back titled: (‘L'Albanophonie dans l'État grec. Expansion et déclin des parlers albanais’, Ph.D. thesis, diplôme de l'EHESS, 2002). A copy exist in France and Dr Nathalie Clayer a friend of his a seen it because she cites it in her work and so does Thanassis Moriatis amongst others. In it is the most up to date list of old and continuing Orthodox Albanian speaking settlements in Greece. I emailed him to send me a copy, he only sent me parts and said the demographic data is off limits for now. He has published stuff from it piece meal and expanding upon it. He said to me in a recent email that he is working on a book about the interwar era and it will contain both a list Muslim and Christian Albanian speaking villages (which will be very interesting) in Epirus (mainly regarding the Chameria zone). He said he wont be including anything about the Konitsa area. That's for a paper or something like that, as he said.) I used the bits he sent in my Honours thesis which was about how Albanians are talking about each other and how we stereotype and so and the negative effects that has had upon us and also from the outside too. I still wonder how i did it in roughly 15, 000 words but i got an A for it. Its because of that process that i came across much stuff that i have been able to do add information on these pages. Also go to Albanian Wikipedia and check out the Cham pages (dhe dergo nje fjale me faqjen ime atije, me mire ashtu) and some are very detailed. I created most of them. See the Paramithia one especially or the Qarku ones and so on. It took me a while, but well worth the effort (Albanian Wikipedia has basically in essence become the Cham institute. Lol !). I still have the Filati page to work on though, with time however. If your Albanian is good would you be able to do some grammar checks for me on those pages, or do you know someone who would be of assistance. I have asked people but they have not bothered to reply. I would really appreciate your assistance. And do keep an eye on the editing process, just in case it get out of hand, the more (Albanian) eyes the better to call out any form of intimidation or bullying. The rest i can take care of. Resnjari (talk) 14:06, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
This means that GHM is a reliable source and a secondary source.You can't say anything as it is used also in many other wikipedia articles as a reference .So my edits will not be deleted. Rolandi+ (talk) 17:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
1.GHM isn't an unknown author. 2.This case isn't wp:Othercraexists .I have read that 3.This case is that you can't delete references when they are reliable and usable.The fact they are used at many other articles means that they are reliable.The fact that I am new here doesn't mean that you can delete my edits only by saying "It's not a reliable source or it is tertiary source".This is the case. 4.There are millions other references that are not cited at wikipedia. 5.They will not be deleted. Rolandi+ (talk) 10:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
- It apprears you are still into endless trolling. Thus, let me help you what's stated Wikipedia:Othercrapexists (which you pretend you've read): The nature of Wikipedia means that you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on whether other articles do, or do not. In simple words you are not convicing, at least in this encyclopedia.Alexikoua (talk) 10:38, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Othercrapexists refers to Wikipedia deletion policy .The Wikipedia deletion policy describes how pages that do not meet the relevant criteria for content of the encyclopedia are identified and removed from Wikipedia. On Wikipedia, many pages are deleted each day through the processes outlined below.It is not about references. Also it says:In Wikipedia discussions, editors point to similarities across the project as reasons to keep, delete, or create a particular type of content, article or policy. These "other stuff exists" arguments can be valid or invalid. The fact that there are many other Wikipedia articles where GHM is used means that it is valid.Why do you ignore it now?Because it says sth you don't like??? So they will not be deleted. Rolandi+ (talk) 11:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
- So far the only "decent" argument you provided is that GHM is used in some other articles. In general poorly cited works (Kormoss, 1994:1, Gerou, 1994b:2, don't they have titles?) you don't even have access on them and dubious tertiary sources like the HM, are far from being considered wp:RS. In case you are eager to inflate specifc numbers this is the wrong place for doing that.Alexikoua (talk) 13:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Arvanites from Arvanitia (Epirus Vetus, Epirus Nova and Angevin Albania)
Why the article concentrates on from where is their origin and not what they did? It really needs tailoring.
- Tsitsipis. Language change and language death. 1981. pp. 100-101. "The term /evjeni̇́stika/ meaning “polite”, used by the young speaker to refer to Greek, is offered as synonymous to /shkljiri̇́shtika/ one of the various morphological shapes of the Arvanitika word /shkljeri̇́shtë/ which refers to “the Greek language”. Thus, Greek is equated with the more refined, soft, and polite talk. The concept of politeness is occasionally extended from the language to its speakers who are the representatives of the urban culture. In conversations in Kiriaki, I heard the word /shklji̇́ra/ (fem.) referring to a city women who exhibits polite and fancy behavior according to the local view. As I stated in the introduction to this dissertation, most of the occurrences of the term /shkljeri̇́shtë/ are not socially marked, and simply refer to the Greek language. But a few are so marked and these are the ones that reflect the speakers’ attitudes. The term /shkljeri̇́shtë/ is ambiguous. This ambiguity offers a valuable clue to the gradual shift in attitudes. It points to the more prestigious Greek language and culture, and also has a derogatory sense. In my data only the first meaning of the socially marked senses of the word occurs."; pp. 101-102. "The second meaning is offered by Kazazis in his description of the Arvanitika community of Sofikó, in the Peloponnese (1976:48): . . . two older people from Sofiko told me independently that, to the not-so-remote past, it was those who spoke Greek with their fellow-Arvanites who were ridiculed. Even today, if an older inhabitant of Sofiko were to speak predominantly in Greek with his fellow villagers of the same age, he would be called i shkljerishtúarë, literally “Hellenized” but used here as a derogatory term denoting affectation. One of those two informants, a woman, said that, until about 1950, it was a shame for a girl in Sofiko to speak Greek with her peers, for that was considered as “putting on airs.” In Spata, /shkljeri̇́shtë/ is used only to refer to “the Greek language” although speakers are aware of the other meanings of the word."
- Pipa, Arshi (1989). The politics of language in socialist Albania. East European Monographs. p. 178. "North Albanian call Slavs shqé (sg. shqá <shkjá <shklá, from sclavus), whereas to Greco-Albanians shklerisht means ‘in the Greek language.’ Hamp observes that “obviously the meaning is traditionally ‘the neighbouring foreigner,’ as with Welsh, Vlah, etc.”"
- Heraclides, Alexis (2011). The essence of the Greek-Turkish rivalry: national narrative and identity. Academic Paper. The London School of Economics and Political Science. p. 15. "On the Greek side, a case in point is the atrocious onslaught of the Greeks and Hellenised Christian Albanians against the city of Tripolitza in October 1821, which is justified by the Greeks ever since as the almost natural and predictable outcome of more than ‘400 years of slavery and dudgeon’. All the other similar atrocious acts all over Peloponnese, where apparently the whole population of Muslims (Albanian and Turkish-speakers), well over twenty thousand vanished from the face of the earth within a spat of a few months in 1821 is unsaid and forgotten, a case of ethnic cleansing through sheer slaughter (St Clair 2008: 1-9, 41-46) as are the atrocities committed in Moldavia (were the “Greek Revolution” actually started in February 1821) by prince Ypsilantis."
- Andromedas, John N. (1976). "Maniot folk culture and the ethnic mosaic in the southeast Peloponnese”. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences. 268. (1): 200. "In 1821, then, the ethnic mosaic of the southeastern Peloponnese (the ancient Laconia and Cynouria) consisted of Christian Tsakonians and Albanians on the east, Christian Maniats and Barduniotes, and Moslem Albanian Barduniotes in the southwest, and an ordinary Greek Christian population running between them. In 1821, with a general Greek uprising impending, rumors of a “Russo-Frankish” naval bombardment caused the “Turkish” population of the southeastern Peloponnese to seek refuge in the fortresses of Monevasia, Mystra, and Tripolitza. Indeed, the Turkobarduniotes were so panic stricken that they stampeded the Moslems of Mystra along with them into headlong flight to Tripolitza. The origin of this rumor was the firing of a salute by a sea captain named Frangias in honor of a Maniat leader known as “the Russian Knight.” Some Moslems in Bardunia,’ and elsewhere, remained as converts to Christianity. Thus almost overnight the whole of the southeastern Peloponnese was cleared of “Turks” of whatever linguistic affiliation. This situation was sealed by the ultimate success of the Greek War for Independence. The Christian Albanians, identifying with their Orthodox coreligionists and with the new nationstate, gradually gave up the Albanian language, in some instances deliberately deciding not to pass it on to their children."
- Bintliff, John (2003). "The Ethnoarchaeology of a “Passive” Ethnicity: The Arvanites of Central Greece" in K.S. Brown & Yannis Hamilakis, (eds.). The Usable Past: Greek Metahistories. Lexington Books. p. 138. "The bishop was voicing the accepted modern position among those Greeks who are well aware of the persistence of indigenous Albanian-speakers in the provinces of their country: the "Albanians" are not like us at all, they are ex-Communists from outside the modern Greek state who come here for work from their backward country"
- Hajdinjak Marko (2005). Don't want to live with them, can't afford to live without them: Albanian labor migration in Greece. Academic paper. International Center for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations (IMIR). pp. 8-9. "What is striking is that IMIR’s team encountered exceptionally negative attitude towards the Albanians even among those Greeks, who are of Albanian origin. Arvanitis are ethnic group of Albanian descent. According to Greek historians, they were an Albanian speaking Christian population, which was hired by Venetians as sailors in the 14th century to fight against the Ottomans. Arvanitis have long since abandoned Albanian language for Greek and integrated fully into the Greek ethnos. Arvanitis respondents IMIR’s team spoke with talked about Albanians with disgust, saying that “they have flooded Greece,” that “they were not good people” and that they “steal, beat and kill.” Some were afraid that Greeks might start to identify them, Arvanitis, with Albanians and their condemnable behavior, and as a result start to reject them. The one thing Arvanitis, who are devout Christians, cannot forgive Albanians, is their apparent lack of respect for religion. In order to facilitate their integration, a large number of immigrants from Albania has been changing their names with Greek ones and adopting Orthodox Christianity, but only nominally, as a façade."
- Lawrence, Christopher (2007). Blood and oranges: Immigrant labor and European markets in rural Greece. Berghahn Books. pp. 85-86. "I did collect evidence that in the early years of Albanian immigration, the late 1980s, immigrants were greeted with hospitality in the upper villages. This initial friendliness seems to have been based on villagers’ feelings of solidarity with Albanians. Being both leftists and Arvanites, and speaking in fact a dialect of Albanian that was somewhat intelligible to the new migrants, many villagers had long felt a common bond with Albania."
- Nitsiakos, Vassilis (2010). On the border: Transborder mobility, ethnic groups and boundaries along the Albanian-Greek frontier. LIT Verlag. pp. 23-24. “Linguistic community and cultural intimacy have played and still play a role in the search of a place of settlement and line of work on the part of migrants, but, also, in their reception and incorporation by the communities of local Arvanites. I have had the opportunity to substantiate this fact through many interviews with Albanian migrants, whose report of their good reception by the populations of Arvanite villages tends to be uniform, especially around the area of Thebes during the first months of their ventures in Greece. The fact that the elderly, at least, speak Arvanite and can communicate with Albanians is of crucial importance. As to the question of cultural intimacy, the matter is more complex and demands special research and study. It was brought up at the Korçe conference by S. Mangliveras, who, with his paper on A1banian immigrants and Arvanite hosts: Identities and relationships” (Magliveras 2004; also Derhemi 2003), demonstrated its complexity and great significance for the understanding of the very concepts of ethnic and cultural identity. It is very interesting, indeed, to examine the way such bonds are activated in the context of migration, but, also, the way the subjects themselves confer meaning to it. After all, the very definition of such a bond is problematic, in the sense that it is essentially ethnic, since it concerns the common ethnic origins of the two groups, while now their members belong to different national wholes, being Greek or Albanian. The formation of modern, “pure” national identities and the ideology of nationalism generate a difficulty in the classification of this bond, as is the case with any kind of identification, which, on top of any other social and psychological consequences. It may have, may produce an identity crisis as well. The apparently contradictory attitude of the Arvanites, which Mangliveras discerns, has to do with their difficulty of dealing with this phenomenon in public. Public manifestation of ethnic and linguistic affinity with Albanian immigrants is definitely a problem for the Arvanites, which is why they behave differently in public and in private. For them, the transition from pre-modern ethnic to modern national identity involved, historically, their identification with the Greek nation, a fact that causes bewilderment whenever one wants to talk to them about the activation of ethnic bonds. From this perspective, too, the particular issue is provocative.”
- Adrian Ahmedaja (2004). "On the question of methods for studying ethnic minorities' music in the case of Greece's Arvanites and Alvanoi." In Ursula Hemetek (ed.). Manifold Identities: Studies on Music and Minorities. Cambridge Scholars Press. p. 60. "That although the Albanians in Northwest Greece are nowadays orthodox, the Arvanites still seem to distrust them because of religious matters."
- Tsitsipis. Language change and language death. 1981. pp. 104-105. "In the shaping of their attitudes towards Arvanitika, speakers have been influenced by the way members of the dominant culture, namely, Greek monolinguals view them their language. One example of the criticism that an old women experienced for her Arvanitika at a hospital in Athens was presented in Chapter IV. Kazazis (1976:47) observes with regard to this matter, that: The attitude of other Greeks certainly reinforces the low opinion so many Arvanites have (or profess to have) of Arvanitika, and other Greek are probably the main source of that opinion. Once or twice, Arvanitika was described to me by non-Arvanites as “ugly” and several people . . . have told me how “treacherous and sly” . . . “uncivilized” . . . and “stubborn” . . . the Arvanites are. That the view of the Greek monolingual segment of the society has been a major source for the development of negative attitudes among Arvanites toward their language can be substantiated on evidence including earlier and more recent information. In the discussion of the Linguistic Policy in Greece (Chapter IV) I observed that the seeds of Arvanitika language are to be sought in the efforts of the intellectuals to bring about the regeneration of Greek nationalism by promoting Greek as the only legitimate language of the nation."
- Tsitsipis. Language change and language death. 1981. pp. 104-105.
- De Rapper, Gilles (2009). "Pelasgic Encounters in the Greek–Albanian Borderland: Border Dynamics and Reversion to Ancient Past in Southern Albania." Anthropological Journal of European Cultures. 18. (1): 60-61. “In 2002, another important book was translated from Greek: Aristides Kollias’ Arvanites and the Origin of Greeks, first published in Athens in 1983 and re-edited several times since then (Kollias 1983; Kolia 2002). In this book, which is considered a cornerstone of the rehabilitation of Arvanites in post- dictatorial Greece, the author presents the Albanian speaking population of Greece, known as Arvanites, as the most authentic Greeks because their language is closer to ancient Pelasgic, who were the first inhabitants of Greece. According to him, ancient Greek was formed on the basis of Pelasgic, so that man Greek words have an Albanian etymology. In the Greek context, the book initiated a ‘counterdiscourse’ (Gefou-Madianou 1999: 122) aiming at giving Arvanitic communities of southern Greece a positive role in Greek history. This was achieved by using nineteenth-century ideas on Pelasgians and by melting together Greeks and Albanians in one historical genealogy (Baltsiotis and Embirikos 2007: 130—431, 445). In the Albanian context of the 1990s and 2000s, the book is read as proving the anteriority of Albanians not only in Albania but also in Greece; it serves mainly the rehabilitation of Albanians as an antique and autochthonous population in the Balkans. These ideas legitimise the presence of Albanians in Greece and give them a decisive role in the development of ancient Greek civilisation and, later on, the creation of the modern Greek state, in contrast to the general negative image of Albanians in contemporary Greek society. They also reverse the unequal relation between the migrants and the host country, making the former the heirs of an autochthonous and civilised population from whom the latter owes everything that makes their superiority in the present day.”
- Iakōbos Rizos-Nerulos (1834). Histoire de l'Insurrection Grecque, precédée d'un précis d'Histoire moderne de la Grèce. Cherbulier. p. 156.
- Iakōbos Rizos-Nerulos (1834). Histoire de l'Insurrection Grecque, precédée d'un précis d'Histoire moderne de la Grèce. Cherbulier. p. 156.