Talk:Arvanites

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Former good article Arvanites was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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The meaning of "Arvanites" in old sources.[edit]

It seems that the article has been locked at an "Albanian" POV. Since much weight is given to early sources, like foreign travellers, it should be added that in that time "Albanian" did not necessarily mean ethnic Albanian. See Arnauts.

"Arvanites were called in the two hegemonies (Moldavia, Vlachia, early 19th c.) the mixed Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians, connected by the same dogma and living by mercenarism".

"In the eithy odd years during which Naples employed light infantry from the Balkans, the troops of the regiment and its successors were known popularly under the three names in addition to the aforementioned camociotti: the seemingly national names of Greci, Macedoni and Albanesi. These, names did not, however, have their later ethnic conotations but were instead stylized terms that described the soldiers' general origins or mode of fighting..."


I am suprissed to read such missinformation in relation to arvanites issue. the ones who have thrown such information to this site, eather have done it on purpose or they are wrongly informed. they may have forgoten that arvanites are all from albanian origin as much as are members of cham community. Recently, a study from an well-known histiryan has clamed that in nowdays Greece live about 6 milion arvanites and cham altogether, which means that comprisses the halph of population of Greece today.

Total number of Arvanites.[edit]

Greek Helsinki is used also here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people_in_Greece .Why did it became a problem now?

Kormoss, 1994:1 and Gerou, 1994b:2 are also serious references.Why did they became a problem now? Rolandi+ (talk) 10:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

https://books.google.al/books?id=yXYKAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA138&dq=arvanites&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Du2OVf_xEoXW7QbPo5moBA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=arvanites&f=false hes been used here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanitika here since a long time.Why did it became a problem now? As for my reported wp:ani It isn;t decided yet. (talk) 10:39, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

For does it claim that Arvanites are 1,6 million in the above link (10%-15% of central-southern Greece is much too lower) ? Also note that tertiary sources should be used with precaution, especially when they lack inline references (who's Agron Alibali by the way?). Can you give full citation from Kormoss ?Alexikoua (talk) 11:39, 28 June 2015 (UTC)


And what's wrong with Greek Helsinki?It is used also in other Wikipedia articles. And what's wrong with this : https://books.google.al/books?id=ibCVBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA62&dq=arvanites++population+estimates&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qr2PVfmQBqiP7Ab6h5T4Bw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=arvanites%20%20population%20estimates&f=false /page 68 ? Rolandi+ (talk) 11:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

150,000? Sure, this is the second reference you provide and, no wonder, refutes your own arguments.Alexikoua (talk) 12:06, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Even if we use reference like the above one, it can't pass wp:rs, clearly a manifesto of Cham claims by representatives of Cham organizations, not to mention that the specific paper lacks inline references.Alexikoua (talk) 12:09, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

It refers to 1961 (about arvanites) .I used that about chams .It is written by non-chams so it is not a clear cham manifesto.It is a book so it doesn't uses inline references.Some of the book's references are albanians ,but others not. Rolandi+ (talk) 12:15, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

You say that this is a cham manifesto :so why did't you say the same thing about this : According to a Greek politician from the era Iakōbos Rizos-Nerulos, their maternal (primary) language was Greek and they also knew Albanian,[1] (souliotes) .And what about the greek helsinki.It is used at other wikipedia's articles like that .It has inline references and it is neutral .So why did you delete it?Answear all my questions. Rolandi+ (talk) 12:27, 28 June 2015 (UTC)


Hi Rolandi
In case you don't see this on your talk and in reply to you on the issue. Regarding your edits on the matter, i would say that best not to continue. Not that i disagree, but because they are hard to substantiate. Many Orthodox Albanian speakers consider themselves as Greeks. Whether one puts it down to Greek government polices or views that Greek society has held regarding people of a Albanian ethno-cultural heritage is another matter. The point is that one we will never know their 'correct number' and two its most likely that the remaining Albanian speakers (at least those of southern and central Greece) will completely disappear in the next few decades. So going on about numbers becomes a pointless issue. But on a personal note, I have come across many of them here in Melbourne Australia. They have said many things in a frank manner that tallies up with the research of scholars to me regarding their views of Albanians. They said them because they mistook me for someone not of the Balkans area as i look like someone who could be from the Nordic countries. They have always been surprised after i tell them that i am an Albanian and a southerner (a Tosk). Often their reaction has often been you a "Tourkos" or "Tourko-Alvanos" and other negative comments (and that's putting it politely). Such are the views within this community even here in Australia. Its the same thing even in Albania. A sizable part of the Albanian Orthodox community no longer wants to be Albanian today and they genuinely regard themselves as Greeks even from experience being with them,(even in the peer reviewed literature it becoming more apparent). Next Albanian census is going to be quite daunting for those who still adhere (mainly Catholics and Muslims) to a Rilindja version of Albanian identity (going beyond religious differences). I hope i have not offended you, especially if you are from an Orthodox Albanian speaking background, but that is the state of things. Albanian identity is becoming the preserve of mainly the Albanian speakers with a socio-cultural Catholic and Muslim (whether secular, conservative or atheist) background.Resnjari (talk) 12:48, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Resnjari , Thank you for your help! Many of them but no all of them.However "Chams" doesn't refer to people who call themselves as "albanians " or "greeks".It refers to people who " are a sub-group of Albanians who originally resided in the region of Epirus in northwestern Greece, an area known among Albanians as Chameria." (see Wikipedia).As for Arvanites it isn't important if they call themselves greek or albanian ,they are undoubtely arvanites.

So Alexikoua:You say that this is a cham manifesto :so why did't you say the same thing about this : According to a Greek politician from the era Iakōbos Rizos-Nerulos, their maternal (primary) language was Greek and they also knew Albanian,[2] (souliotes) .And what about the greek helsinki.It is used at other wikipedia's articles like that .It has inline references and it is neutral .So why did you delete it?Answear all my questions. Rolandi+ (talk) 13:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Without providing full citation of Kormos, your additions will soon be removed (again). By the way HM doesn't qualify as wp:rs and it's not a secondary reference. If this is used as a reference in other articles, per Wikipedia:Othercrapexists, your arguments are still too weak. Alexikoua (talk) 13:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi, have a look at the Cham Albanians talk page, i wrote large chunks of it. There used to be a lot of POV there. It took a lot of work and energy there to get the article fixed. With accusations of POV, POV, POV all but one of my edits did not make it (due to "original research reasons" - see Hobhouse, it might interest you.) Regarding numbers of Orthodox Albanian speakers in Greek Epirus, that is more difficult. The person who has access to this material is Lambros Baltsiotis (forget Albanian sources except for Fatos Rrapaj and his Fjalor Onomastik te Epirit book -all accurate though mainly about Muslim Cham villages, some about Orthodox Albanian villages). Baltsiotis wrote a PHD about 13 years back titled: (‘L'Albanophonie dans l'État grec. Expansion et déclin des parlers albanais’, Ph.D. thesis, diplôme de l'EHESS, 2002). A copy exist in France and Dr Nathalie Clayer a friend of his a seen it because she cites it in her work and so does Thanassis Moriatis amongst others. In it is the most up to date list of old and continuing Orthodox Albanian speaking settlements in Greece. I emailed him to send me a copy, he only sent me parts and said the demographic data is off limits for now. He has published stuff from it piece meal and expanding upon it. He said to me in a recent email that he is working on a book about the interwar era and it will contain both a list Muslim and Christian Albanian speaking villages (which will be very interesting) in Epirus (mainly regarding the Chameria zone). He said he wont be including anything about the Konitsa area. That's for a paper or something like that, as he said.) I used the bits he sent in my Honours thesis which was about how Albanians are talking about each other and how we stereotype and so and the negative effects that has had upon us and also from the outside too. I still wonder how i did it in roughly 15, 000 words but i got an A for it. Its because of that process that i came across much stuff that i have been able to do add information on these pages. Also go to Albanian Wikipedia and check out the Cham pages (dhe dergo nje fjale me faqjen ime atije, me mire ashtu) and some are very detailed. I created most of them. See the Paramithia one especially or the Qarku ones and so on. It took me a while, but well worth the effort (Albanian Wikipedia has basically in essence become the Cham institute. Lol !). I still have the Filati page to work on though, with time however. If your Albanian is good would you be able to do some grammar checks for me on those pages, or do you know someone who would be of assistance. I have asked people but they have not bothered to reply. I would really appreciate your assistance. And do keep an eye on the editing process, just in case it get out of hand, the more (Albanian) eyes the better to call out any form of intimidation or bullying. The rest i can take care of. Resnjari (talk) 14:06, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Alexikoua :GHM is used ALSO here: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]

This means that GHM is a reliable source and a secondary source.You can't say anything as it is used also in many other wikipedia articles as a reference .So my edits will not be deleted. Rolandi+ (talk) 17:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

As I've said wp:Othercraexists isn't an argument, try to familiarize with that & tertiary sources should be used with high precaution, especially if they are published by completely unknown authors.Alexikoua (talk) 07:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

1.GHM isn't an unknown author. 2.This case isn't wp:Othercraexists .I have read that 3.This case is that you can't delete references when they are reliable and usable.The fact they are used at many other articles means that they are reliable.The fact that I am new here doesn't mean that you can delete my edits only by saying "It's not a reliable source or it is tertiary source".This is the case. 4.There are millions other references that are not cited at wikipedia. 5.They will not be deleted. Rolandi+ (talk) 10:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

It apprears you are still into endless trolling. Thus, let me help you what's stated Wikipedia:Othercrapexists (which you pretend you've read): The nature of Wikipedia means that you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on whether other articles do, or do not. In simple words you are not convicing, at least in this encyclopedia.Alexikoua (talk) 10:38, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


Wikipedia:Othercrapexists refers to Wikipedia deletion policy .The Wikipedia deletion policy describes how pages that do not meet the relevant criteria for content of the encyclopedia are identified and removed from Wikipedia. On Wikipedia, many pages are deleted each day through the processes outlined below.It is not about references. Also it says:In Wikipedia discussions, editors point to similarities across the project as reasons to keep, delete, or create a particular type of content, article or policy. These "other stuff exists" arguments can be valid or invalid. The fact that there are many other Wikipedia articles where GHM is used means that it is valid.Why do you ignore it now?Because it says sth you don't like??? So they will not be deleted. Rolandi+ (talk) 11:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

So far the only "decent" argument you provided is that GHM is used in some other articles. In general poorly cited works (Kormoss, 1994:1, Gerou, 1994b:2, don't they have titles?) you don't even have access on them and dubious tertiary sources like the HM, are far from being considered wp:RS. In case you are eager to inflate specifc numbers this is the wrong place for doing that.Alexikoua (talk) 13:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Arvanites from Arvanitia (Epirus Vetus, Epirus Nova and Angevin Albania)[edit]

Why the article concentrates on from where is their origin and not what they did? It really needs tailoring.

Its because that is what the editors who wrote this article concentrated on. If you feel that there needs to be additional information, it is welcome. However it must be based on peer reviewed and non-nationalisitic scholarship in line with Wikipeia policy on sources.Resnjari (talk) 04:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Proposing a change on the meaning of "Albanoi" and "Arvanitai". Please let me know about your thoughts.[edit]

"In History written in 1079–1080, the Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates referred to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium." After that, he also wrote that in 1043, George Maniakes a renowned strategist rebelled in Italy invaded Greece, but was mortally wounded in battle. Also in 1043, The Norman warlord de Hauteville founded the County of Apulia in South Italy, trampling and Byzantine territories.

The book of Anna Comnene "Alexiad", is also explaining in chapter 4, 5 and 6 the meaning of "Albanoi" and "Arvanitai". The "Albanoi" were the Normans who invaded The Balkans "First Norman invasion of the Balkans (1081–1085)" under Robert Guiscard and Bohemund and the "Arbanitai" where the Byzantine peoples that inhabited the area around Dyrrhachium. This invasion and the Battle of Dyrrhachium (1081) where Dyrrhachium fell to Robert Guiscard triggered the migration southwards. She also wrote that between 1078-1080 when Nikiforos Botaniates was the Emperor, the Normans of Apulia invaded the Balkans on the pretext of defending the rights of Constantinos Doukas. The people involved were Nikiforos Vasilakis in 1079. The next invasion by the Normans was the "Second Norman invasion of the Balkans (1147–1149)" under Roger II of Sicily and "Third Norman invasion of the Balkans (1185–1186)" where the Normans sacked Thessalonika. In 1272 was the last invasion from Normans under Charles I of Anjou was in he declared himself "King of Albania" (Carolus I, dei gratia rex Siciliae et Albaniae) in February 1272.

From these two books that are already referenced in both articles, we can interpret that:

     1. "Albanoi" are the Normans of Apulia 1043 and The Normans of Sicily 1079–1080. 
     2. "Arvanitai" were the Byzantine Peoples, inhabitants of Arbanon (Northern Epirus or South Albania)

References from the Wikipedia Article "Arvanites": Michael Attaliates, History 297 mentions "Arbanitai" as parts of a mercenary army (c.1085); Anna Comnena, Alexiad VI:7/7 and XIII 5/1-2 mentions a region or town called Arbanon or Arbana, and "Arbanitai" as its inhabitants (1148). See also Vranousi (1970) and Ducellier (1968).

From the Wikipedia Article "Albanians" the Introduction: "In History written in 1079–1080, the Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates referred to the Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium."

From the Wikipedia Article "George Maniakes": "In 1043 his army clashed with troops loyal to Constantine near Thessalonika, and though initially successful, Maniakes was killed during the melee after receiving a fatal wound (according to Psellus' account). Constantine's extravagant punishment of the surviving rebels was to parade them in the Hippodrome, seated backwards on donkeys. With his death, the rebellion ceased. In Sicily, the town of Maniace and the Syracusan fortress of Castello Maniace are both named after him."

Arvanites and Alvanoi are derivative of the word Arberesh. Greek authors of the medieval period used both terms for Albanians speakers. It is only with the creation of the Greek state that a slow differentiation occurred, which after World War Two started to mean that some Albanian speakers were different peoples due to religion (as is outlined in Greece). It is outlined in the article that Alvanoi/Arvanites refer to those people and is cited by means of a peer reviewed sources. Also one must bear in mind Greeks have been referred to by different names(by themselves and others), yet they are still referred to as Greeks or more actually as Greek speakers until the dawn of nationalism and identify formation. If you think that there are any bits that need citing in the article, point them out and i am more than happy to cater for them. You can check the Albanian version of this article where i have done so quite meticulously and extensively using i might add Greek and not Albanian sources :). As of now no change.Resnjari (talk) 04:30, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry but Arvanites is a derivate of Arvanon meaning "Inhabitants of Arvanon" ex. Cephalonites as "inhabitants of Cephalonia". Albanians derived from the Latin word Alba which means white and it has been used from the Byzantines to refer to inhabitants of Alba Longa. The inhabitants of Alba Longa happened to be the Normans that had their dominion in Napoli under king Charles I (Anna Comnena, Alexiad VI:7/7 and XIII 5/1-2). What you say Rejnari has absolutely no basis. Find me a resource that states that Albanian is a derivative of Arberesh and I will agree with you. Until that time its better to not include your Nationalistic propaganda in this articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.231.202.194 (talk) 15:02, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Arbanitai (Arbanite -> Arvanite) have the same root as Arbanasi, Rabanasi - the early Slavic mentioning of Albanians, and Arbnesh / Arbenesh derivation in Gheg, Arberesh - a corruption of the Tosk dialect (n -> r, pretty common). Nothing new here.
derivate of Arvanon meaning "Inhabitants of Arvanon" - where is this place Arvanon? You mean Arbana/Arbania (before Albania came to use)?
The inhabitants of Alba Longa happened to be the Normans that had their dominion in Napoli under king Charles from the Byzantines to refer to inhabitants of Alba Longa. -- seems like you are challenging everything is known and written about Albanians so far. I never heard that Albanians means "Normans that came from Puglia". Italy is on the west of Albania, and Albania is on the east of Italy. So, it would make sense if the Normans invaded Puglia from Albania, not the other way around. Don't forget that Albanii were an Illyrian tribe and Albanopolis is mentioned by Ptolemeus far ahead.
I see you are attached to that book of Comnena. Can you explain why did you start this discussion on the first place? Are you saying that Arvanties are not Albanians (ethnically speaking)?--Mondiad (talk) 04:11, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
From the journal “The Northern Ethnological Boundaries of Hellenism” .[1]
p.45.The only alteration of the populations of these areas worth mentioning is the one caused by the infiltration of nomadic tribes of Albanians in Epirus and Central Greece down to Peloponnessus. Albanians (Arvanitae) and Albania (Arvanon) are already mentioned in the wars of Alexius I Comnenus against the Normans.
From the book: Dismembering the State: The Death of Yugoslavia and why it Matters, By P. H. Liotta [2]
p.198. Among Greeks, the term “Alvanitis”—or “Arvanitis”—means a Christian of Albanian ancestry, one who speaks both Greek and Albanian, but possesses Greek “consciousness.” Numerous “Arvanites” live in Greece today, although the ability to speak both languages is shrinking as the differences (due to technology and information access and vastly different economic bases) between Greece and Albania increase. The Greek communities of Elefsis, Marousi, Koropi, Keratea, and Markopoulo (all in the Attikan peninsula) once held significant Arvanite communities. “Arvanitis” is not necessarily a pejorative term; a recent Pan Hellenic socialist foreign minister spoke both Albanian and Greek (but not English). A former Greek foreign minister, Theodoros Pangalos, was an “Arvanite” from Elefsis.
From: Kamusella, Tomasz (2009). The politics of language and nationalism in modern Central Europe. Palgrave Macmillan. p. 241. "Prior to the emergence of the modern self-ethnonym Shqiptarë in the mid-16th century (for the first time it was recorded in 1555 by the Catholic Gheg, Gjon Buzuku, in his missal), North Albanians (Ghegs) refereed to themselves as Arbën, and South Albanians (Tosks) Arbër. Hence, the self-ethnonym Arbëreshë of the present-day Italo-Albanians (numbering about 100,000) in southern Italy and Sicily, whose ancestors, in the wake of the Ottoman wars, emigrated from their homeland in the 14th century. hese self-ethnonyms perhaps influenced the Byzantine Greek Arvanites for ‘Albanians,’ which was followed by similar ones in Bulgarian and Serbian (Arbanasi), Ottoman (Arnaut), Romanian (Arbănas), and Aromanian (Arbineş)."
Baltsiotis, Lambros (2011). The Muslim Chams of Northwestern Greece: The grounds for the expulsion of a "non-existent" minority community.[3] Until the Interwar period Arvanitis (plural Arvanitēs) was the term used by Greek speakers to describe an Albanian speaker regardless of his/hers religious background. In official language of that time the term Alvanos was used instead. The term Arvanitis coined for an Albanian speaker independently of religion and citizenship survives until today in Epirus (see Lambros Baltsiotis and Léonidas Embirikos, “De la formation d’un ethnonyme. Le terme Arvanitis et son evolution dans l’État hellénique”, in G. Grivaud-S. Petmezas (eds.), Byzantina et Moderna, Alexandreia, Athens, 2006, pp. 417-448."
And: John Bintliff (2003). "The Ethnoarchaeology of a “Passive” Ethnicity: The Arvanites of Central Greece" in K.S. Brown & Yannis Hamilakis, (eds.). The Usable Past: Greek Metahistories. Lexington Books. f. 138. “While compiling my maps of village systems across the post-medieval centuries from the Ottoman sources (archives so remarkably discovered and tabulated for us by Machiel Kiel; see Kiel 1997; Bintliff 1995, 1997), I was careful to indicate in the English captions which of them were Albanian-speaking and which Greek-speaking villages. A strong supporter of the project, the Orthodox bishop of Livadhia, Hieronymus, watched over my shoulder as the maps took shape. "Very interesting," he said, looking at the symbols for ethnicity, "but what you have written here is quite wrong. You see the people in Greece who speak a language like Albanian are Arvanites, not Alvanoi, and they speak Arvanitika not Alvanika. In this seemingly innocuous, and of course technically correct, comment lies a much deeper layer of ideology, signified by the mere substitution of an "r" for an "l." The bishop was voicing the accepted modern position among those Greeks who are well aware of the persistence of indigenous Albanian-speakers in the provinces of their country: the "Albanians" are not like us at all, they are ex-Communists from outside the modern Greek state who come here for work from their backward country; as for the Arvanites (traditional inhabitants of the Greek countryside speaking Albanian)—well, they are a kind of ethnic Greek population from somewhere on the northwest borders of Greece, where the line between the Greek state and that of Albania has always been fuzzy and permeable to intermarriage. Thus the difference between an "l" and an "r" neatly allows the modern Greeks to divorce themselves and their history from that of the unpopular but widely employed, modern Gastarbeiter of post-Communist Albania. Shortly after this conversation, I saw the bishop pass across the courtyard of our project base—a converted monastery run as a research center—to talk to the genuine Albanian guestworkers who were restoring its stonework. I knew he was himself an Arvanitis, and listened with interest as he chatted fluently to them—and it wasn't in Greek! I was tempted, but wisely forbore, to ask him which language they were conversing in—Arvanitika or Alvanika?”
I have found you some sources, some of them by Greek scholars. Moreover your comment about "Until that time its better to not include your Nationalistic propaganda in this articles." I have not. Much of the article was written before my time and that section of whicch you refer too was not written by me. All edits by me can be checked in the history page so please refrain from accusations. Regarding this comment "I am sorry but Arvanites is a derivate of Arvanon meaning "Inhabitants of Arvanon" ex. Cephalonites as "inhabitants of Cephalonia". Albanians derived from the Latin word Alba which means white and it has been used from the Byzantines to refer to inhabitants of Alba Longa." Oxford archaeologist John Bintliff has this to say regarding such views for example that in that "comment lies a much deeper layer of ideology, signified by the mere substitution of an "r" for an "l".... and that "Thus the difference between an "l" and an "r" neatly allows the modern Greeks to divorce themselves and their history from that of the unpopular but widely employed, modern Gastarbeiter of post-Communist Albania.". Please do not POV push with your nationalistic commentary. As for "Find me a resource that states that Albanian is a derivative of Arberesh and I will agree with you." I did. Before you make commentary and accusing others of nationalistic behaviors, please do a google book search or a google scholar search at the very least if you do not have access to a library. Thank you.Resnjari (talk) 03:35, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

First of all, I am not defying your knowledge and I am not pushing any NPOV for the reason that I strongly despise it. I thoroughly and genuinely speak about history. It is very sad though that you don't seem to understand that we are talking about peoples of 12-13 century AD where the modern Greek and Albanian ethnic consciousness was not even an idea. However, the resources that you presenting are especially for the terms "Arvanitis" (Inhabitant of Arbanon) and "Alvanitis" (Inhabitant of Albania) are quite vague because the only argument is the confusion between "r" and "l" (sic), especially a Greek speaker for the reason that both have different meaning. According to George Finlay, Epirus and Albania where just the Province of Albania along with Rumelia and Morea in Ottoman Greece and Albania, you can find the map, so of course the people where using them both terms interchangeably but my comment was for 12th Century document and not for documents that have been created in 21st Century. In Modern/Medieval Greek the ending -ites means "Greek Inhabitant of a specific region" and has it roots from the Byzantine Empire. To distinguish between non-Byzantines they were using words as Armenians (Armenioi), Albanians (Albanoi, For Normans according to Anna Comnene), Germans (Germanoi), Galatians (Galatioi-es), Russians (Rossoi), Scandinavians (Scandinavoi), Italians (Italoi), Hispanians (Ispanoi) and goes on. Anyway again, I am not going to discuss about modern nationalities but about the name of Albania that the first Angevin King (Carolus I, dei gratia rex Siciliae et Albaniae) used comes from the Latin Word (Alba) and not from Arber. This is when the name Albania comes up and the name Theme of Dyrrachium or Epirus Nova fades away. It is crucial for the sake of the article and for the readers to understand that the wars between the Normans (Albanians) and later the Ottomans with Byzantines because the Arvanites where Byzantine peoples same like the Smyrniotes and the Constantinopolites where everyone was referring to themselves as (ROMANS/RHOMIOI) plus their demonym triggered the migration towards what is modern Greece from what is modern South Albanian or Northern Epirus. Chris.

"It is very sad though that you don't seem to understand that we are talking about peoples of 12-13 century AD where the modern Greek and Albanian ethnic consciousness was not even an idea."
Of course what people defined themselves back then was different to now. Greek speaking peopling called themselves Romioi and then in the 19th century began calling themselves Ellines. Greek speakers who converted to Islam, still speak Greek and who call their language Romeika in Turkey fully identify as Turks and not Greeks. Nonetheless in the article Names of the Greeks one does not say they these Greek speakers were a different people. Socio-cultural and linguistic connections are outlined and cannot be dismissed. Arvanites start to define themselves as Greek in the early 19th century from the Greek War of Independence onwards and is outlined in the article.
In the article itself the sentences which you are referring to is written as: "The name Arvanites and its equivalents go back to an old ethnonym that used in Greek to refer to Albanians. It originally referred to the inhabitants of that region Arvanon (Άρβανον) or Arvana (Άρβανα),and then to all Albanian-speakers."
The word Albanian is but one name as rendered in English for Albanian speakers of the area and is outlined. It came via the Italian and used in various western languages. In the Balkans, various indigenous variations of the native Albanian self appellation Arberesh/Arbenesh were used like Arvanites. To claim there is a difference without providing sources is POV pushing. Scholars have outlined that such "distinctions" are not based on scholarship but on ideological (nationalist) grounds. Moreover in the article it is stated that Arvanites word was used for people inhabiting an area called Arvanon and that is it. You are somehow implying that Arvanites was some kind of generic word back then without evidence i might add.
"It is crucial for the sake of the article and for the readers to understand that the wars between the Normans (Albanians) and later the Ottomans with Byzantines because the Arvanites where Byzantine peoples same like the Smyrniotes and the Constantinopolites where everyone was referring to themselves as (ROMANS/RHOMIOI) plus their demonym triggered the migration towards what is modern Greece from what is modern South Albanian or Northern Epirus."
All Albanian speakers where once Byzantine subjects and Orthodox. Just because a different regime or power comes to an area does not mean that we are going to use the name that that country has for a people. Otherwise for the Byzantine era, one would use Arvanites, then when the Ottomans came, Arna(v)ut, Then during the Yugoslav tenure, Arbanas followed by a racist rendering of Shiptar and then Albanac. In historical literature, Greek speaking people are often refereed to as Greeks, and Byzantine is used for the political apparatus, or when discussing the sociopolitical structures etc or about the way those people had state belonging/interaction/relationship to the Byzantine polity. As for the Arvanite migration, the demonym did not trigger that and i do not know where you got that from. Migration occurred due to the Albanian political class imposing a repressive feudal form of governance over the people leading many to go when invited by the Catalans and Italian rulers of Attica and the Peloponnese. Albanians continued to call themselves Arberesh/Arbenesh the era of heavy Islamisation of Albanian speakers during the 18th century. Shqiptar and shqip come from the latin excipio which means roughly the common tongue or those who can speak the common tongue. Albanian speakers were refering their socio-cultural and linguistic grouping according to language and is very complicated. Regarding the Arvanites, that is not important as only Arvanites in the Lala and Bardounia region converted to Islam, and after the war of Independence, no longer exist. As for your claim that everyone was referring to themselves as Romoioi, i am sorry but that is POV pushing. Wikipedia states most emphatically that no original research [wp:OR]. You would need to provide strong sources saying that. Only Greek speakers used the self appellation of Romioi for themselves. Albanian speakers used Arberesh/Arbenesh, by those that went to southern Greece, those who fled to Italy after the Skanderbeg wars with the Ottomans, and even those Catholic Albanians who fled from the Montenegrin coast in the mid 18th century to Zadar Croatia, see: Arbanas. Romioi would need to be accounted for beyond doubt. At this point in time this is just your speculation.Resnjari (talk) 01:13, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Dear, Rejnari, I am sorry for the misunderstanding I said in my comment that the wars triggered the migration and that every subject of the ERE called themselves Romans plus their demonym (Romans/Arbanitai) please see documents from the Duke of Dyrrachium, I just missed the comma near demonym. Anyway, once again you trying to put me under your NPOV pushing for something completely out of topic will make myself once again clear, i speak for people of 12-13 century where their name comes from the Medieval Greek where it was the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire, an empire that was ruling the Area of Modern Albania for 1100 years. These people where fled the wars because they wanted to keep their religion and save their lives. For the reason though that you continuously bringing up sources of post-ottoma or ottoman era, you realise that the old sources refer to Normans as Albanians and to Arvanites or Arbanitai as to inhabitants of the region. Also about the Arbereshe, can you please explain to me hy Mussolini changed the name of Piana dei Greci to Piana degli Albanesi in 1941 just before he attack Greece through Albania?

From the article Piana degli Albanesi:

"King John II of Spain and Sicily allowed the original refugees to occupy the present place and to preserve their Catholic religion, which was identified as Greek, so that the small town had the name of Piana dei Greci. In 1673 the local priest Domenico Mamola in a note written in Greek refers the Piana as "Piana of the Greeks" (Πιάνα των ρωμαίων).[4] In 1941, during the Fascist regime and after Italy attacked Greece, the name was changed to "Piana degli Albanesi".[5]"

If I remember right in his pre war speech in 1940 in Piazza Venezia Mussolini referred to the Regno d' Albania as part of the alliance, please see below:

"10 giugno 1940

Il discorso di Mussolini a Piazza Venezia “Popolo italiano: corri alle armi”

Combattenti di terra, di mare e dell'aria, Camicie nere della. Rivoluzione e delle Legioni, uomini e donne d'Italia, dell'Im­pero e del Regno d'Albania, ascoltate! Un'ora segnata dal destino batte nel cielo della nostra Patria. L'ora delle decisioni irrevocabili. La dichiarazione di guerra è già stata consegnata agli ambasciatori di Gran Bretagna e di Francia...."

Anyway, my wish is the article to concentrate more on their history and what they did because it is the article for the Arvanites of Greece, and not a debate about their origins. Of course the link between the Arbereshe has to be mentioned. And also that everyone but everyone has got Byzantine/Roman heritage regarding the new identity of the successor states Greece, Albania, Italy etc. Chris.

You made a statement earlier that said people from the era in the area defined at that moment in time as Arvanon called themselves Romioi ! You have not provided evidence for that (peer reviewed i might add) and for the basis of a conversation might be interesting, but to make a serious edit to the article, i am sorry but it does not comply with Wikipedia guidelines. Moreover you have conflated Albanian speaking communities. You have invoked the Italian Albanian speaking communities which have nothing to do with this community of (formally) Albanian speaking people called Arvanites. All Albanian speakers once called themselves Arberesh/Arbenesh and it changed due to the complexities many Albanian speakers underwent during the Ottoman era (18th century) were Albanian speakers thereafter sought a designation based on language, hence Shqip, meaning those who speak, those who know from the Latin excipio. There is also a body of peer reviewed literature that points out that Greek was often used as a religious term meaning Orthodox for people of varying linguistic backgrounds (if you want to have that discussion i am more than happy to indulge you). Italians when they encountered the Arberesh from Albania after the Skanderbeg's wars referred to all Orthodox people as "Greek". The Arberesh in Italy have referred to themselves in unbroken succession as Arberesh and to outsiders as Albanian, and its the Italian state who caught up with that reality. There was no "Albanisation" of the population, in case one might assume this and especially from that village Piana many Arberesh were involved in the Albanian National Awakening of Albanians in the Balkans, not the other way around. So if you want to make edits to the Arberesh page do so there if you think that "Greek" in that context really meant Greek. I am sure other editors too will ask the same of you as i have. Bintliff pointed out clearly that people distinguishing for example the l with the r in regards to Albanians (Alba vs Arva) is done so for ideological purposes in Greece. Unless you have sources, good ones to make a change, a change to that section will not be made. RegardsResnjari (talk) 11:40, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Calm down My dear friend, you actually losing your point by becoming aggressive. Of course you can believe whatever is better for you and Wikipedia is not a forum or a psychological clinic. I made my exact point that Albanian comes from Alba, the Julian Dynasty were Albanians as well from Alba Longa in Ancient Rome, and Arbanitai comes from Arbanon and you insist on some complete nonsense stressing l and ,. and for the records an Albanian Gheg told me that Shqip means eagle ha be a good day.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.126.225.206 (talk) 12:27, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

No one is being aggressive. But please point out at what moment i have become "aggressive". Please refrain from name calling and accusations. I always go by good and credible sources. So far you have not provided the scholarship needed to undertake such a serious change. The onus is on you to do so, not me. "I made my exact point that Albanian comes from Alba, the Julian Dynasty were Albanians as well from Alba Longa in Ancient Rome," that constitutes original research. Albanians as a people come into the historical record in the early medieval period. What you’re referring to belongs in the Origins of the Albanians article and you can discuss that matter over there."you insist on some complete nonsense stressing l and ", no you were the one who claimed that people in Arvanon called themselves Romioi and by default so did the Arvanites. You have not presented scholarship to that effect."and for the records an Albanian Gheg told me that Shqip means eagle" i don't work on myths, but facts. The eagle myth is that, for the etymology of the word shqip. Shqiponje is the name for eagle in Albanian, but not the origin of the word Shqip. Serious scholarship takes that eagle myth with a grain of salt. Provide good reliable and credible scholarship first (its does not matter about their ethnic background or whatever as long as their record is not nationalist or flawed) and we can take it from there. Until then things stay. There is a reason why this article is semi-protected due to people in the past wanting to make changes based on opinion not facts. And I wish you a good day too.Resnjari (talk) 12:42, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Dear Rejnari, to sum up our interesting conversation, please see below the references and the documents that i derived and support my opinion. History is always deceiving and very deep to know but the only thing that we can say is that everyone has got common heritage from Easter Roman / Byzantine Empire.


1st. Origin of the words.

My Argument: "Albanoi" is a derivative of the latin word "Alba" or "Alban" or "Albanus" or "Album" and "Arvanites" is a derivative of the word "Arvanon"/"Arbanum"/"Arvana""

Your Argument: "Arvanites and Alvanoi/Albanoi/Albani/Albania are derivative of the word Arberesh"

What we already know from linguists about both words:

a. Etymology of the word Alban: Latin Albanus ‎(“resident of Alba”) (a mountain region and an ancient city of Latium) from Album which means "white" in latin.

b. "Alba Longa." Oxford Classical Dictionary. 2003 ed.: "Albani was the Latin name in the Roman Republic for the inhabitants of Alba Longa. According to legend, Ascanius, son of Trojan War hero Aeneas, founded the Albani tribe when he settled Alba Longa around 1152 BC. The Latin kings of Alba Longa (Latin: rex Albanus, lit. King of Alba), also referred to as the Latin kings of Rome, or Alban kings of Rome, are a series of legendary kings of Latium ruling mainly from Alba Longa. In the mythic tradition of the founding of Rome, they fill the 400-year gap between the settlement of Aeneas in Italy and the establishing of the city walls of Rome by Romulus and Remus. It was this line of descent to which the Julii claimed kinship."

c. Anamali & Prifti (2002), p. 207: "On 21 February 1272, a delegation of Albanian noblemen and citizens from Dyrrachium made their way to Charles' court. Charles signed a treaty with them and was proclaimed King of Albania "by common consent of the bishops, counts, barons, soldiers and citizens" promising to protect them and to honor the privileges they had from Byzantine Empire.The treaty declared the union between the Kingdom of Albania (Latin: Regnum Albanie) with the Kingdom of Sicily under King Charles of Anjou (Carolus I, dei gratia rex Siciliae et Albaniae)." Before the Norman conquest the area was know as the ERE Theme of Dyrrachium and Principality of Arber.

d. Etymology of the word Arvanites in Greek as it is a Greek word: Αρβανίτης < μσν. Ἄρβανα Ετυμολογία: [<μσν. Ἀρβαν-ίτης < τοπων. Ἄρβανα]


2nd. Denomination of the people.

My Argument:""Albanoi" are the Normans of Apulia 1043 and The Normans of Sicily 1079–1080. "Arvanitai" were the Byzantine/Roman Peoples, inhabitants of Arbanon/Arvana (Northern Epirus or South Albania)"

Your Argument: ""Albanoi" and "Arvanites" are the same people"

What we already know from Attaliates's History (1079–1080) and from Comnene's Alexiad (1148) both original works were the demonominations appear for the first time:

a. Michael Attaliates, History 297 mentions Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium and also "Arbanitai" as parts of a mercenary army c.1085.

b. Alexiad VI:7/7 and XIII 5/1-2 mentions a region or town called Arbanon or Arbana, and "Arbanitai" as its inhabitants. Eustathius Camytzes had fallen the duty of guarding the passes near Arbanum. First Norman invasion of the Balkans (1081–1085) under Robert Guiscard and Bohemund. When some small towns bordering on Arbanum fell into Bohemunds hands, their inhabitants, who were intimately acquainted with all the roads round Arbanum, came to him and explained the exact position of Devra and showed him the hidden paths. Guido thereupon divided his army into two parts; he himself opened battle with Camytzes in front, and ordered Contopaganus and the Count Saracenus to take the Devriots as guides and fall upon him from the rear. They both approved this scheme and while Guido was fighting in front, the other Counts attacked Camytzes army from the rear and wrought terrible carnage upon it. He could not possibly fight against them all, so when he saw his men put to flight, he too followed their example. Many of the Romans fell in this battle, among them Caras who even from childhood had been received and enrolled among the Emperors nobility; and also the Turk Scaliarius, formerly one of the most brilliant chieftains in the East, who had afterwards deserted to the Emperor and received Holy Baptism.


And finally, degustibus non est dispotantum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.231.202.194 (talk) 11:34, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

First off this is original research wp:OR and in particular WP:SYN. You must have scholarship that has looked at the matter, anaysed it and then written upon it see: WP:ANALYSIS. But i am happy to indulge you nonetheless. You have given there a series of citations that relate to references about the area that today is Albania. Your position is that references to Albania or Albanians are different to Arvanon and Arvanites because the first pertains to Italy and or having arrived from Italy, while the second is they are Byzantines because the word Arvanites is used and it is a Greek word. Well first off the Albanians out of Italy theory is redundant see Origin_of_the_Albanians#Obsolete_theories in scholarship and secondly, scholarship does not treat Arvanon, Arvanites as separate from Albanians (and Arvanites and Albanians are become distinguishable from 1820s onwards). Albanians have been known by multiple names. The root word Alba is not just a Latin word, but one older from Indo-European, as Albanian is a Indo-European language, just like Greek and Latin. A common origin going back many thousands of years. Could also be a non-European word too. For both see Albania (placename). But for the purposes of the discussion here, current day peer reviewed scholarship says this in regards to the matter:
Skutsch, Carl. Encyclopedia of the World's Minorities. Routledge, 2013. p. 138. The Arvanites (or Arbërorë or Arbëresh) are one of the ethnic Albanian groups who settled various Greek lands during the Middle Ages. They live mostly in central and southern Greece and call themselves Arbërorë or Arbëresh. The Greek term Arvanites is related to the root Arbër, which in Albanian means, "originating from Arbëria" the medieval designation for present-day Albania. The Arvanites migrated to Greece from Toskënia. southern Albania in large numbers and several waves, mostly during the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries CE.
Scholarship for one regards the Greek term Arvanites as originating from the medaevil Albanian language term Arbëria which was the name of the area. In other sources i have used above, Arvanites and Arvanon are considered related also. Please take this into consideration. Bintliff states that "l" and "r" word games are ideologically driven in Greece. Placing primary sources (though interesting) outside their context without providing peer reviewed material that makes a point you are inferring does not meet Wikipedia policy for a change to the article. Please read the policy about Original research (read the bit on secondary sources too) and then find peer reviewed sources which state that indeed Arvanites where different from Albanians or the name Albania and that they were "Romioi" or Byzantines.Resnjari (talk) 02:59, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, I think we having the chicken and egg scenario here, you constantly stating that " Bintliff (2003) states that "l" and "r" word games are ideologically driven in Greece" were we see from the original Attaliates (1079-1080) History that he refers to "Albani as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople (Maniaces and de Hauteville family in Sicily) in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the duke of Dyrrachium". That automatically renders Bintliff's theory obsolete for the reason Attaliates writes clearly both Albani and Arbanitai names from 1080 and so Arvanites or "l and "r" stressing cannot be a post-1820s creation. Please be careful when you pick and choose your sources. Probably bintliff is confused with the Sanjak of Albania or Finlay's documents were Finlay divides Ottoman Greece and Albania in Provinces of Albania, Rumeli and Morea.

I also understand that Arberia in Arvanitic dialect is the root of Arbanum but Attaliates refers to these people as Arvanitae, the Arvanites refer to themsheves as Arberore. I have never seen a single source where an Arvanite refer to himself as Albanian or Alvanos. It's crystal clear that Albani was a name that the Byzantines gave to the invaders from Naples and Sicily (Robert Guiscard and Bohemund), they conquered what is today Albania after the battle of Dyrrachium (1081)and the established a dominion everything is written in Alexiad. Arbanitai where just the indigenous people there and they migrated south to avoid this situation.

To sum up, you constantly bringing up sources about modern Greece and Albania were I am discussing about the Byzantine/Roman Empire. Thus I am refusing to comment for the reason that you are completely out of topic. The word Alban or Albanus or Alba or Album is Latin and I proved it to you already, you state that "The root word Alba is not just a Latin word, but one older from Indo-European, as Albanian is a Indo-European language, just like Greek and Latin" that sounds partly vague so can you please give a source with the etymology of a non-Latin identified word "Albania" or "Alban"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.231.202.194 (talk) 11:22, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me, but did you read the Wikipedia policy on original research and secondary sources. Your citing primary sources and then making a conclusion on that. I am sorry but unless you are an academic and have published on the matter, the edit you are proposing to the article does not adduce to Wikipedia policy. You are interpreting what Attaliates, a primary source said. Has a reputable academic come to the conclusion regarding Attaliates that you are coming to? Have you got a source that say that Arvanites identified as "Romioi" (from your previous comments) ? Wikipedia has rules, so please abide by them otherwise any edits can be made to the article. For example many Arvanites believe in the Pelasgian theory about their origins. But in scholarship that is viewed not as credible. You say "Thus I am refusing to comment for the reason that you are completely out of topic." No i am completely in topic. "It's crystal clear that Albani was a name that the Byzantines gave to the invaders from Naples and Sicily (Robert Guiscard and Bohemund), they conquered what is today Albania after the battle of Dyrrachium (1081)and the established a dominion everything is written in Alexiad." According to whom, which academic is it "crystal clear" that "Albanian" in that context meant what your inferring? What are your peer reviewed sources that indicate this or am i to take your word for it ? "I also understand that Arberia in Arvanitic dialect is the root of Arbanum but Attaliates refers to these people as Arvanitae, the Arvanites refer to themselves as Arberore." So when you understand that Arberia and Arberore is in the "Arvanitic dialect" which Albanians can understand (i am a southerner) and scholarship also agrees with this, why are you continuously pushing something else based upon your opinion, not scholarly analysis (which is secondary sources) of the primary source of which you bring here? You also say "The word Alban or Albanus or Alba or Album is Latin and I proved it to you already," no one doubts that in relation to the Albanians. My comment on "Could also be a non-European word too." was regarding what was in the Wikipedia article about the wider usage of the world Albania, or Alba. You can take it up with editors to that article there and what was contained within. Nonetheless Albanian and Arvanites are connected to each other in word form with Arberi.
Madgearu, Alexandru, and Martin Gordon. The wars of the Balkan Peninsula: their medieval origins. Scarecrow Press, 2008: p.146. [4]
The Illyrian tribe Albanoi and the place Albanopolis (names recorded by Ptolemy, Geographia, III. 12. 20) could be located near Krujë, but nothing proves a relation with the medieval Albanians, whose name appears for the first time in the eleventh century in Byzantine sources. The name given by the Albanians themselves is Shkipëtari (“eagles”), hut they are recorded in medieval sources with the names Arbanitai, Arberi. The names Arbër (“Albanian”) and Arbën (“Albania”) are used now by the Albanians who immigrated to southern Italy, but not by those from Albania. The origin of this ethnic name is the word arbër, which comes from the Indo-European root alb- = “mountain, tableland.”
Madgearu and Gordon identify the word Arber being derivative of Alb, while Arvanon in the other peer reviewed literature shows that Arberi and Arvanon are related and the latter being derived from the former. Also regarding "I have never seen a single source where an Arvanite refer to himself as Albanian or Alvanos." They don't and that is outlined in the article. I also said to you check the Albanian Wikipedia article which has much footnotes with heavy inline citations from sources, i might add from Greek scholars. I wrote it and provided much input into it anyway and made sure it was sourced especially Greek society's views of Arvanitika etc etc. Bintliff and especially Tsipsitis and others go into why that is. Much of this material is available and you can read for yourself. From the 1820s Arvanites have increasingly identified as Greeks due to geographical location and nation building, religion, schools and the negative attitude of Greek society toward Albanian language etc -see Tstisptis especially for that. You may be uncomfortable with the common origin of Albanian speaking peoples but that is confirmed by non-Albanian scholarship, at times by the Greek. Saying that Albanian and Arbanitai are different without offering the sources for that (at a point in the past) is in line with Bintliff assessment about the l vs r being ideological in Greece.Resnjari (talk) 12:34, 3 November 2015 (UTC)


I am very glad that you finally agree with me that the Albania comes from the word "Alb". But I am a bit confused because you state that Arber come from "Alb that means that Arber is a Alb derivative? I thought that Albania derived from Arber as you said. Can you please give me a source that Arbanum derives from the word Alb? The only medieval source that states the name Arbanitai and Arbanum are Attaliates and Comnene were they also state the name Albani and that's why I am based on them. Etymology of the word "Alb": The alb (from the Latin Albus, meaning white)from Proto-Italic *alβos, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂élbʰos, *álbʰos, *albʰós ‎(“white”).

Please once again don't involve me in the nationalistic disputes between Greeks and Albanians, I will refuse to answer in any comment related to that, we only speak about Medieval. At the end of day, Arvanites belong to the Greek nation, they choose to from whatever are their origins, they fought for the Greek Independence, they donated most of their fortunes for the struggle and goes on so there is no need to find out were they belong. We discussing the origins of the name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.231.202.194 (talk) 14:37, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Scholarship of which i provided states all all the terms Avrvaites, Albanian and Arberi and related and have given rise to one and the other. The order in which that occurred is still debated. With in this article, the reference to Arvanon is to the medaevil period, not some ancient era. Albanian speaking peoples used that word for themselves. What you want to do in the article is to infer without bringing a secondary source analyzing Attaliates and coming to the conclusion you are giving about it refering to different people and so on. This the Arvanitess article, not the origin of the Albanians article. The Arvanites migrated from the area in the 13th-14th century to areas of Greece while Attaliates refers to the late 1000s. You, one, have not taken Wikipedia policy into account, two you are still continuing with original research. What scholars have come to your conclusion ?
"Please once again don't involve me in the nationalistic disputes between Greeks and Albanians, I will refuse to answer in any comment related to that, we only speak about Medieval."
Was it not you who said "I have never seen a single source where an Arvanite refer to himself as Albanian or Alvanos." You brought contemporary times up, not i.
"At the end of day, Arvanites belong to the Greek nation, they choose to from whatever are their origins,"
The article is about them, so origins will be cited according to peer reviewed scholarship, even if it makes some people uncomfortable.
"they fought for the Greek Independence, they donated most of their fortunes for the struggle and goes on so there is no need to find out were they belong."
Again you brought it with the previous comments. The article outlines that in full and also the Arvanites views of Albanian people today. I add that part in particular based on peer reviewed sources as to dispel any myths that the Arvanites might be some kind of "prodigal son" people who might return to being Albanian. Some Albanians sadly do believe this.
"We discussing the origins of the name."
Yes and the names are all interelated for Albanian speaking peoples. Not Romioi or something else.Resnjari (talk) 02:09, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


It seems like that I am speaking to someone that selectively misinterprets sources in order to serve an NPOV pushing, I requested an etymology of the name Albania that derives from Arber and you gave me nothing only a source that states it might, I gave the etymology of "Alb" and once again you didn't even pay attention. Our topic is that a distinguish must be made between the names Albanians were the invaders from Italy and Arbanitai the Byzantine inhabitants in the region of Arbanum which Arbanum or Arvanon from the origina text possibly derived from this: In the 6th century AD, Stephanus of Byzantium, in his important geographical dictionary entitled Ethnica (Ἐθνικά), mentions a city in Illyria called Arbon (Greek: Ἀρβών), and gives an ethnic name for its inhabitants, in two singular number forms, i.e. Arbonios (Greek: Ἀρβώνιος; pl. Ἀρβώνιοι Arbonioi) and Arbonites (Greek: Ἀρβωνίτης; pl. Ἀρβωνῖται Arbonitai).

The only reason that I brought a contemporary is because the poor selection of scholars that serve your POV pushing and such us your strongly supported theory of "l" and "r" stressing for political reasons where we already know both Arbanitai and Albanians have been used from medieval. Also of course everyone has been called Roman citizen at that time for the reason that they were subjects of the Roman Empire for about 1500 years "cīvis rōmānus sum" and of course various Emperors from the province of Illiricum the most Romanised province refer to themshelves as Romans. (Romios means Roman).

Also, no Arvanites can return to any being Albanian again for the simple reason that thy were never part of any Albanian nation. Albania didn't exist at that time.please don't state nonsense or NPOV propaganda.

So my conclusion to our discussion is:

1. Albani = Comes from "alb" (from the Latin Albus, meaning white )from Proto-Italic *alβos, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂élbʰos, *álbʰos, *albʰós ‎(“white”). They were the invaders. 2. Arbanitai = Comes from Arbon (Greek: Ἀρβών) e. Arbonios (Greek: Ἀρβώνιος; pl. Ἀρβώνιοι Arbonioi) and Arbonites (Greek: Ἀρβωνίτης; pl. Ἀρβωνῖται Arbonitai)' According to Polybius and to Stephanus of Byzantium Ethnika from 4th Century AD. They were the indigenous people.

Let's leave to the Administrators to decide what they will do with it because it's a pity for the article to be so badly written and designed and concetrate mostly on their origins. Have a good morning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.126.225.206 (talk) 07:38, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

"I gave the etymology of "Alb" and once again you didn't even pay attention." You gave here a whole list of primary sources with your interpretation of it. That is original research. You are not following Wikipedia policy on sources use.
"I requested an etymology of the name Albania that derives from Arber and you gave me nothing only a source that states it might, I gave the etymology of "Alb" and once again you didn't even pay attention. Our topic is that a distinguish must be made between the names Albanians were the invaders from Italy and Arbanitai the Byzantine inhabitants in the region of Arbanum which Arbanum or Arvanon from the original text possibly derived from this."
You are referring to the 11th century while the Arvanites left their homeland in the 13th-14th century. First off you are claiming a distinction without stating which academic has said this. And then you want me to take you on board.
"1. Albani = Comes from "alb" (from the Latin Albus, meaning white )from Proto-Italic *alβos, from Proto-Indo-European *h₂élbʰos, *álbʰos, *albʰós ‎(“white”). They were the invaders."
Which scholar has written this ?
"2. Arbanitai = Comes from Arbon (Greek: Ἀρβών) e. Arbonios (Greek: Ἀρβώνιος; pl. Ἀρβώνιοι Arbonioi) and Arbonites (Greek: Ἀρβωνίτης; pl. Ἀρβωνῖται Arbonitai)'"
And Arvan/Arvon is derivative of Arber, the Albanian language word for the country in the source given.
"According to Polybius and to Stephanus of Byzantium Ethnika from 4th Century AD. They were the indigenous people."
That is problematic as one linking the Illyrians outright to the Albanians. The discussion you are looking for there is in the origins of the Albanians page, not here.
"Let's leave to the Administrators to decide what they will do with it because it's a pity for the article to be so badly written and designed and concetrate mostly on their origins."
As for the article being badly written, that not my issue. The edits i made were done according to the sources and they relate to Greek views of Arvanitika and Arvanite views of Albanians. The bit you want to make change needs to be inline with policy. If you do have a issue do place this matter on the notice board for dispute resolution.Resnjari (talk) 08:41, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


From the Oxfords dictionary: "Albania Medieval Latin name of the country called by its inhabitants Shqipëri (literally "land of eagles," from shqiponje "eagle"), from Medieval Greek Albania, possibly from a pre-IE word *alb "hill" (also proposed as the source of Alps) or from the PIE root *albho- "white" (see alb). Roman Albania was a land by the Caspian Sea (modern Daghestan); in English Albania was occasionally also a name for Scotland." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.126.225.206 (talk) 05:36, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Look i am not against data (Moreover these issues you are looking for to discuss belong on the wrong page. The origin of the Albanians article is the one where the concerns you bring and the issues you raise are relevant to the wider article and its content and themes) This is a article on the Arvanites, not their origins alongside other Albanian speaking peoples of the medeavil area who lived in a similar geographical location to current day Albania going back to the 1000s and before. Moreover, changes here cannot not be original research. Have a read of the Wikipedia guidelines. Use Google books and google scholar. If you have access to a local library go look for books on the topic and see what scholars have said. Then bring that here. Otherwise making changes based on a person's understanding of what the primary sources say could be done everywhere. Its a precedent not supported on Wikipedia. kind regards.Resnjari (talk) 05:47, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
This talk page is about Arvanites, and not only their origin, even less the origin of Albanians, or the etymology of the word "Albania(n)".--Mondiad (talk) 04:11, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 1 December 2015[edit]

Hi, Can we please change the related ethnic groups to Greek and Arbereshe for the reason that the Arvanites are identified as ethnic Greeks and not as Ethnic Albanians in the modern sense. Thank you in advance. Othon I (talk) 12:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC) Othon I (talk) 12:35, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done. What we can do is to remove the entire "related" field, because the whole concept is ill-defined (seriously, what is "relatedness" supposed to mean when applied to ethnicities?), but whatever definition we use, I do not think there is any that could reasonably exclude the relationship between this group and the one from which it split away just a few decades ago. Fut.Perf. 13:38, 1 December 2015 (UTC)


Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. (tJosve05a (c) 00:07, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Nothing in this thread is useful for the article. People need to stop using this talkpage for exchange of personal opinions, and I very strongly recommend not feeding the trolls and not continuing to humour "Othon" by responding further to him in any way. Just ignore the noise. I'm hatting this thread off as evidently nothing will come of it. Also, Othon, you need to stop misusing the "editprotected" template. You are autoconfirme, so you could edit this article yourself (if you had consensus for your edits, which you don't, so don't edit it.) Fut.Perf. 10:54, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

As it happens everyone agreed on changing Italian Albanians to Arbereshe, Also, i don't understand why the hostile stance by the time I have some suggestions and i want to ask the community and act accordingly because as you said i don't have a consensus and i can't edit it. Anyway, thank you for the advise i will follow it. Have a great day. Othon I (talk) 11:40, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't disagree that this article is need of a expansion and some work needs to be done. A section of the Greek war of independence sounds good and their integration into the kingdom of Greece and there after too. Or expansion of parts of the article relating to that already. The reason why other editors including myself have been a little cautious with your earlier proposals (especially me was that you wanted to remove connections to the Albanian factor -outlined in peer reviewed material- because you may be uncomfortable with that). Anyway all i can say is do a lot of reading of good peer viewed material (look up the Wikipedia policy on reliable sources). There are google books and scholar and if you have access to a local library -or university library- do check that out. Then write up something a place it in here as a proposal (without a template.) and we will go from there for the independence, kingdom and thereafter era. The Arbershe bit i will change in the article.Resnjari (talk) 04:16, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Glad to hear that from you, Resnjari. Also, I admit that there is a linguistic connection with Tosk Albanians and thats what I am proposing to change, It is not that I feel uncomfortable where to be honest i don't have a reason to feel, it happens to start my wikipedia experience with the Greek Independence and Kingdom and I noticed that this article need tailoring. Thank you for changing it to Arbereshe and also let me know if you agree to change the Albanians bit to Tosk Albanians[1] as Dutch for example are related to Frisians sub-Group of Germans. I due course, I will bring some data for Greek Independence and Kingdom and I will try to find about Stradioti as well and I will present them here to get yours and community's opinion. Have a great day Othon I (talk) 08:40, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the Tosk Albanian bit, there of course is a linguistic connection. However a few points need to be made. Though Arvanitika is a branch of Tosk Albanian, Tosk Albanian in itself is part of the wider Albanian language family and not a separate language. Also when the division into Tosk and Geg dialects occurred, it was mainly during the Ottoman era (a bit after the Arvanite migrations). As the Arvanites came from territories that are now traditionally identified as either Tosk or Gheg in Albania, a Gheg strain has also been noted amongst some Arvanitika by Nicholas Hammond, although in its early medaevil form [5]. Anyway in the Arvanitika page, the Tosk connection has been outlined. So the Albanian language bit in the leade covers both dialects from which Arvanitika descends, the bit of info you want to add goes in the Arvanitika page. As for the other stuff, yeah the article needs some expanding. The history bit in particular. Albanian settlement and their relationship with the Venetians and their role in resisting the Ottoman conquest (Peloponnese especially). And the other bits you outlined. All i can say to you is this, if its your interest and passion, go for it. However make sure the sources you use meet Wikipedia standards for reliable sources > WP:RELIABLE. Read the policy in full and no original reaserch of primary sources. Or look for an academic or scholarly publication that has done that of (a) primary document/s. Beyond that, all the best.Resnjari (talk) 17:31, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
The article about Arvanites is more or less hijacked by Greek nationalists, to be honest. The main subject of this editing conflict, the assertion that Arvanites are in fact Greeks, in one way or another, is originally taken from (the source thats is) a Greek section of an international organization. The past of this article was even more devastating, when every time the word Albanian was mentioned, was quickly erased. In Swedish Wikipedia, attempts of classifying the Arvanites as Greeks have been stopped. It would be helpful if this article is brought up for a wider discussion by a larger audience of administrators. --Vannucci (talk) 21:32, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

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  1. ^ Botsi 2003: 21