Talk:Asperger syndrome

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Featured articleAsperger syndrome is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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Asperger is no longer a valid reference, autism is[edit]

This page must be merged into autism as an historical background of the breakthrough knowledge of autism. This is confusing, and wrongful.  Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.87.88.226 (talk) 13:05, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

The confusion is in the terminology being documented, not in Wikipedia's documentation. It is true that the DSM-5 (2013) no longer defines Asperger syndrome, merging it into Autism Spectrum Disorder (DSM-5 code 299.00, ICD-10-CM code F84.0). However, ICD-10-CM (2018 United States edition) does maintain the distinction, coding Asperger syndrome as F84.5. AFAIK practically all U.S insurance companies require physicians to code diagnoses using ICD-10-CM; however, statutory requirements exist within the U.S to define mental illness according to DSM-5, e.g in the Washington Administrative Code (red link in Law of Washington (state)) at WAC 388-447-0040(5)(b). Note that the DSM-5 is a U.S-centric definition of mental disorders, whereas the ICD-10 (on which the various nation-specific ICD-10-CMs are based and which also includes Asperger disorder) comes from the World Health Organization (WHO). Will Mengarini (talk) 05:35, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
Speaking as someone who is diagosed with a very very mild Asperger condition, the reality as I see it is that there are indeed two closely-related conditions, which may overlap. From the inside, I find myself occasionally fixated on something, and that may be elaborated in minute examination to a quite remarkable degree. It's an expression of high IQ: I and others like me don't think particularly linearly, but in a network of interconnected memes. Our problem is that we lack the tools to decribe them, as language is linear. IF the subject is then rather abstract, we don't cut matters short. I have what may have been the top IQ in the baseline, certainly very close to it. Yet I also have a huge sense of humour, one of my jokes made the top 50 on one of the more recognised study groups. I'm very highly empathic, too, to an inhuman degree of ultraperception. It may actually be that two similar pathologies exist, one a low-IQ extension of autism, the other a high-IQ speciality. For example, the other Aspie in the family's the grandson of the Oxford Regius Professor of Mathematics: I'm the son of a top professional engineer, Director of R&D at the IMechE, who was also very likely an Aspie. We're related by marriage, not blood, as far as I know. If so, is it actually a syndrome at all, or simply an expression of the inability of the extremes to be normalised? OK, that's OR, but this isn't the main meme, it's permitted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.123.173.109 (talk) 23:04, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Doc James This topic is worth revisiting since ICD-11 appears to no longer use the eponym and consistently uses the term autism spectrum disorder just like the DSM-5. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 18:14, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
The problem you're going to run into is that those in the Aspie community still do, and likely always will, refer to their section of the spectrum as Asperger's. Not to mention reliable sources still refer to it as such. It's not an antiquated or unused term/diagnosis. -- ψλ 22:12, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
All the same, it's still worth discussion since the ICD is changing and the nomenclature is now becoming more consistent with the DSM-5's change. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:47, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Bottom line: what are reliable sources saying? Keep in mind that's sources plural, not source singular (i.e., ICD). -- ψλ 23:07, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
I would hardly call reliable (and influential) sources such as DSM-5 and ICD-11 "singular." I'm not suggesting I've done a thorough literature review of this yet to see if the change has been adopted (ICD-11 hasn't even been released yet) but per the previous discussion, an objection that was raised was ICD-10's use of the eponym. ICD-11 appears to be changing this and that's important (and the point). TylerDurden8823 (talk) 23:09, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
My point is the DSM and the ICD aren't the only reliable references that talk about the autism spectrum. If there are reliable news sources still referring to it as Asperger's, as well as reputable/notable persons with Asperger's/autism and organizations that support those with it, then "Aspergers" is still valid, even if the official diagnosis has changed/is changing. We go with a wide range of sources, not just medical sources. Wikipedia isn't a medical journal. -- ψλ 23:19, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting that Wikipedia is a medical journal nor am I suggesting that we go by ICD-11 and DSM-5 alone or that they are the only reliable references that discuss autism spectrum (they are more influential than many other sources and it's important to consider weight but I never said they're the only important sources). As I said before, I think it's worth discussion. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 23:45, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
I think at minimum you'd need to initiate a formal merge discussion on this rather than just a Talk page thread. DonIago (talk) 16:01, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Well, it may be time for that soon given what I'm seeing on PubMed as well. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 16:41, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

This is the kind of page proving Wikipedia is occasionally biased by editors view. Op is right, Asperger is a discontinued diagnostic. An erratic model excused as a syndrome until scientists nailed it down properly as Autism. The remaining objections hereinabove are just an irrational (redundancy) tantrum. Let see how much the Wikipedia has to bear having wrong pages like this one, damaging its credibility, until someone does the right thing, and merges it, turning it into a proper subsection of the Autism page, as it is scientifically meant to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.27.91.97 (talkcontribs)

I'm no expert on this topic, but working in the education sector I can certainly confirm that in my country "Aspergers" still has very common usage. As does "Aspie". (What my particular country is is irrelevant.) I hope those wanting some sort of merge are taking a global view on this, and not wanting to deny how the "Aspergers" community uses the word. HiLo48 (talk) 22:48, 4 August 2018 (UTC)
It will take years before usage changes. A new recommendation does not mean that everything that goes before immediately gets drops.
Yes we should say that the condition is no longer recognized by the APA/DSM and we do. Does not mean a merge is required. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 12:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
ICD11 redirects to "6A02.0 Autism spectrum disorder without disorder of intellectual development and with mild or no impairment of functional language" https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http://id.who.int/icd/entity/120443468 Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:00, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Like I said, not yet, but soon. The use of the term in the literature has also gone down quite a bit and that should also be taken into account, James. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 17:03, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Replace main picture[edit]

The article picture for the “Asperger syndrome” shows a boy analyzing a complex molecular structure. As the main article picture, this implies that people with Asperger syndrome are necessarily talented in science, even though there is no solid evidence to indicate this. I propose to replace this picture with the picture of a boy stacking cans, which implies a more generalized form of restricted interest. Sidney Sol (talk) 00:05, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Editing[edit]

I wanted to ask if I can add notable people with this syndrome. Do I have the permission to do it. If yes, how can I turn the vandalism mode off? Ddominator (talk) 12:52, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

The page is already semi-protected, so the real risk is people adding unverified claims rather than flat out vandalism. If we can keep on top of that, I don't think it's a bad idea. MutchyMan112 (talk) 17:06, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

We tried this a while back. We used to have a list of persons on the autism spectrum. It turned into a contentious issue when editors added famous people based on flimsy sources. It got really heated when unsavory characters purported to be on the spectrum were added. The list was eventually removed. CatPath (talk) 05:34, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Actually, I thought I had seen this list a long time ago, I seem to remember the heated discussion that ensued.Read-write-services (talk) 06:02, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems best we don't bring this list back. Otherwise we might have a repeat of the past. MutchyMan112 (talk) 13:01, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Please Add a separate section for Misdiagnosis, with pointwise explanation in layman's term.[edit]

Public awareness about Aspergers/ASD is little, even within the educated community; that often leads to misdiagnosis, wrong medication and wrong advisory. Therefore it is very important to explain everyone in layman's term why asperger/ASD is so important to diagnose, and what adverse effect can occur from misdiagnosis.

There are common instances of misdiagnosis Asperger/ HFA/ ASD/ Autism and NVLD/NLD which can be listed as follows.

1. The person with actually above spectrum misdiagnosed as something else:

  • 1A. Lack of autism awareness and lack of practical knowledge about autism spectrum; in parents, teachers, doctors and even some psychologists and psychiatrists lead to ignoring or misinterpreting the symptoms.
  • 1B. Lack of eye-contact often ignored or unnoticed or misattributed to a lack of confidence. Job or research interviewers may misattribute the lack of eye contact as telling lies or hiding something, but that is not the case. Also the lack of usage and the lack of understanding body language, facial expression etc may lead the job interviewers to think the candidate is arrogand, impolite, and careless about the interviewers' emotions. Lack in teleologic thinking, mistake in postures and repeatitive body movement may lead to a wrong impression that as if the candidate is impatiet, inattentive and atacking but that is not really the case.
  • 1C. Psychologists and psychiatrists may become obsessed with "current" incidences, moods and behaviours; thus can miss the childhood details, how the situations "developed", and the neurobiological basis. After all ASD and its allies are developmental difference after all.
  • 1D. ASD patients often don't come with complaints which are directly symptoms of autism. Often they themselves don't recognise they are biologically different. For example, an NVLD person might not recognise they are missing about 80% of the communication (which are nonverbal components such as body languages, facial expressions, teleological thinking, complex tonal cues, metaphors, pretentions, when to stop talking or when to start talking or respond, whether the said statement is a question or narration or a request or order etc) Rather, they consult the doctor with the "results" they suffer from their symptoms, such as bullying by other classmates, weird classroom-situations, misunderstanding with other persons, depression, anxiety, fear, etc.
  • 1E. ASD symptoms are often misinterpreted (even sometimes by experienced psychologists and psychiatrists) as Obsessive Compulsive disorder (OCD), ADHD, anxiety, depression, inattentiveness, ordinary correctable mistakes in behaviour, mood problems, paranoid-fears, lack of self-esteem, etc.
  • 1F. Sometimes an average or good or super-excellent academic records, hide the fact the person carries learning disabilities. Particularly in case of Aspergers, the good verbal skill and excellent semantic memory may hide the fact that the person could have so much problem in practical life. Performance discrepancies are often misattributed to lack of attentiveness or being over-ambitious in a wrong field of interest.
  • 1G Sometimes, particularly in developing and underdeveloped countries; the autistic symptoms (such as sound sensitivity, smell-sensitivity, crowd fear/agoraphobia, social anxeity, distancing from cultural and religious rituals, distancing oneself from painful magico-religious self-torturing rituals, face-recognition problems etc) may be criticised culturally and socially so much, and from a so early age; that the autism may take a really different form. An early and repeatitive brainwash by practicing the kid to talk with and visualise god as an imaginary friend, social and magico-religious indoctrination process, forcefully participating the kid into social rituals etc ultimately develop into a really complex mental disorder, where it may be impossible to diagnose the autism. Many cultures in developing and underdeveloped countries, require an ability to very neat and tidy, with everything well arranged and heavily ornamented. So an early-age child lining-up toys and creating nice paatterns may be ignored, and the required help and support may not reach. Similarly an amazing mathematical ability (Such as in some HFA and Savant-syndrome) may be misinterpreted as an extra connection with god, and may be subsequently indoctrinated into astrology, may be forced to explain facts in terms of assumed meaning/symbolism etc and finding supernatural signs out of random. But that is not really the case within neurophysiology of the person. Similarly, prolonged training in cultural practices may hide or modify other autistic symptoms, such as a girl (or sometimes a boy) in a developing/underdeveloped country may get habituated in appearent "pretend play"; may be just a superficial imitation of social pretend play; where the girl (sometimes boy) actually set up a visual scene than to assign oneself into a social status.


2. Person with some-other disorder may be misdiagnosed with ASD spectrum.


  • 2.A. A talented kid without any social interaction problem, may be misdiagnosed as ASD (Such as Asperger/HFA/Savant).
  • 2.B. A person may avoid communication due to mood problems, or may be the person (usually talented) is habituated in overusing metaphors (that only he/she understands) and complex modes of communication demanding a teleologic understanding of listener; but the person actually have good social understanding and understand social positions, roles and other social concepts and having good understanding of body language. These situations may be misdiagnosed as autism spectrum which is not really autism spectrum; just superficially resembling few/many symptoms of autism spectrum.
  • 2.C. Mental retardation of some other form (or low IQ), (but which is not autism spectrum) tend to be misdiagnosed as autism.
  • 2. D. Sometimes a physical malformation/ teratogeny is misdiagnosed as autism; but there is no direct relation. That is completely different from autism. There are incidences Autism-spectrum person may be physically fit and even can become sportsperson and airforce pilots.

RIT RAJARSHI (talk) 05:45, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

We can't add information without reliable sources. If you want this information added, then you should provide such references. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 16:35, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

In future please preserve this page with due respect.[edit]

There are multiple debates 1. that merge with other Autism article, 2. that requests synonymisation of Asperger, HFA, and other mild autism spectrum disorders, 3. that request rename because of Professor Hans' Nazi eugenics tie-up controversy.

Still; the page content deserve great respect and archiving because:

1. Even if future research prooves the classification of Asperger, HFA, PDD-NOS etc are "artificial classification"; still that superficial differences indeed exist; and still can have the potentiality to serving the missing pieces of the puzzle of research.

2. The page itself carries a history of struggle and fight.

3. It is presumable that at least some of the contributors have the said difficulty; and in fact on harsh real world it seems mostly (if not always), an Asperger writes for other Aspergers. So they had to struggle a lot to type, edit, format, make appropriate/ acceptable sentences and collect references. So their labour must be treated with great respect and care.

RIT RAJARSHI (talk) 15:46, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm unaware of any active debates about merging this page. DonIago (talk) 16:36, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
The term "asperger syndrome" is still frequently used. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:20, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
It's important to note that it's changed quite a bit in the last five years. It's true that some organizations have yet to phase out the old terminology but the literature's landscape appears to have changed quite a bit. For instance, a quick unrestricted PubMed search with the term "Asperger syndrome" yields 2,137 hits [1] but that drops to only a bit over 400 if restricted to the last five years (47 if we're talking about reviews). On the other hand, the same unrestricted search for the term "autism spectrum disorder" yields almost 32K results [2] with ~13.5K within the last five years and nearly 2K reviews. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 01:07, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
Yah eventually we will want to write about the condition in the past tense. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:46, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Can someone with Asperger help?[edit]

Hello. I have asperger syndrome, and I'd love to contribute.

Just asking if I could (since this is semi protected)

GDanthonyYT (talk) 15:09, 1 November 2018 (UTC)GDanthonyYT