Talk:Assault rifle

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

False, unsourced claim, and generally the article's a mess of Apocrypha and bias[edit]

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is a consensus that sources treat the category of "assault rifles" as resting not solely in physical characteristics such as ammunition caliber, but also in the weapons' intended role as part of sturmtruppen tactics and the design pedigree of weapons that it influenced. While the Winchester balloon rifle had the technical characteristics that would later be considered defining features of an assault rifle, the reliable sources do not treat that rifle as a significant part of how the concept and category of assault rifles originated. It might be appropriate to mention the Winchester balloon rifle in the article, but consensus clearly is that it would be undue for claims about the Winchester balloon rifle to be used in a way that diminishes the primacy of the STG-44 as the originator of the class. Rhoark (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

So I guess we're ignoring wiki BRD policy on this page? The unsourced assertion that assault rifles were first used in ww2 is not the consensus view, nor is the assertion that the germans were the first to pioneer the assault rifle concept during world war 2. "The research led to an article published in the NRA Journal for the American Arms Collector, Man at Arms, (Vol. 13, No. 1, January/February 1991), titled The Burton Balloon Buster by William B. Edwards. Mr. Edwards emphatically asserted that this was indeed the first true assault rifle; developed in 1917. The father of this remarkable weapon was none other than Frank B. Burton, the noted engineer who worked with John Browning on the first BAR." http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=121 Other experts argue that the first was the federov avtomat. There is no consensus among experts that assault rifles were first used in ww2, and there is no consensus among experts that germans were the first to pioneer the assault rifle concept. I'd support a change to saying that the germans pioneered the sturmtruppen tactics in world war 2, and so it could be said that germany pioneered new tactics based around the assault rifle, sturmgewehr, but it seems like the germans pioneered sturmtruppen tactics at the end of world war 1.TeeTylerToe (talk) 11:06, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

It's a fringe claim, and per WP:UNDUE we go by what the mainstream opinion is, not what a single source claims. Your source also says "The Burton Balloon Buster" was designed as a specialised weapon, intended only to fire slow heavy incendiary rounds capable of defeating observation balloons, not as an infantry weapon. And the Fedorov Avtomat has been discussed multiple times, with no support for it being an assault rifle. Thomas.W talk 11:27, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
What justification are you using for calling an article about guns published in the NRA journal for the american arms collector by a well respected firearms editor william b edwards. Per WP:FRINGE this does not seem to qualify as a fringe theory. The source is a reliable source. It's not original research. I'm not saying that there can't be anyone in the firearms community that disagrees so it's not a npov violation. If you do present a reliable source to support the claim that one of one of the WW2 germany designs was the first assault rifle, unlike you, I'm perfectly happy to accept that that position would hypothetically have support. And it's verifiable. How can you claim that it's a fringe theory and what support do you have for your StG 44 claim and are you violating NPOV? You seem to be willfully ignoring a verifiable claim.TeeTylerToe (talk) 22:58, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
The problem here is that claiming there was an assault rifle before the StG-44 is like claiming there was a Dreadnought before HMS Dreadnought: while you might find a design that ticks most or even all the boxes, there was no such thing as a Dreadnought for that ship to be. Here you have something that might be considered an assault rifle (through since it was designed to be mounted it seems more like a light machine gun to me) but it's one prototype and we have no idea why it was abandoned. I understand your concern that the current article sounds like the gun just fell out of Hitler's ass one day, but at best these maybe-guns belong in a "precursors" section. Herr Gruber (talk) 01:09, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
Discussions like this on talk pages is OR but I thought that it was the other way around. The dreadnought was the first ship to have a all major gun armament and steam turbines. I haven't heard it argued that there were dreadnought class ships before the hms dreadnought. And if there was a ship with the same features as the hms dreadnought before the hms dreadnought, shouldn't the dreadnought article reflect that if there are reliable sources to support it? I can say that four nations adopted the winchester model 1907 in small numbers. Fully automatic, intermediate round, detachable magazine. Also, it looks like there were two barrels for the winchester 1917, one for aircraft and another from infantry. I suppose you're talking about the aircraft barrel being designed to be mounted? I'm perfectly happy saying that the origin of sturmgewehr/assault rifle was in germany and could be attributed to hitler, but there are reliable sources that say that there were assault rifles before the stg-44. How can this article be NPOV if it ignores RS that say that there were assault rifles before the stg-44? Not to mention I still haven't seen a RS saying that the stg-44 was the first AR.TeeTylerToe (talk) 02:19, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
Actually IIRC only M1907s in French use were converted to fullauto and the M1907 wasn't really designed for the same role, it would be too unwieldy to use in the same way as an SMG since it didn't have a pistol grip, and only the French used large magazines with it, which since they were single-column were gigantic (see here) while everyone else used 10-rounders and used it as a semi-auto battle rifle.
I'm talking about that "balloon rifle;" by the sounds of it it's like the Villar-Perosa or MG34 Panzerlauf in that it was to come with a kit that let it be dismounted and used separately from the vehicle it was mounted on. Granted if it was actually adopted it might have become the first AR if, like the Villar-Perosa, it ended up with a dedicated infantry version, but as it is it ended up shoved down the side of a cabinet for almost a century.
Let's say we're talking about evolution and the "first" mammal. Obviously it's hard to point to one specific creature, but would you call the first mammal the creature that all other mammals share as a common ancestor (thus being the first because it defined the group of things called mammals), or the first creature with mammalian traits even though you know that creature had no actual descendants? Herr Gruber (talk) 17:29, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

It sounds like you're choosing to define "the first assault rifle" not as the first rifle with the characteristics of an assault rifle, but the first rifle with the characteristics of an assault rifle to be adopted by a military. The thing is that's OR. A reliable source says that the first assault rifle was the winchester model 1917. Also, fwiw, giving the 1907 a forward pistol grip seems to have been a common modification going back to the '50s or earlier.TeeTylerToe (talk) 20:30, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

No, the weapon from which all modern assault rifles are conceptually descended, as opposed to a flash-in-the-pan prototype or something that was a bit like a concept that was codified later and by something else.
And as far as I know sticking a forward pistol grip on an M1907 wasn't an official modification, so it wouldn't qualify as a purpose-built assault rifle:I was also talking about it not having a rear pistol grip, and generally the wrong ergonomics for close-range use. And the problem is you have one source that advances a particular theory (I don't know why you keep calling it the "Balloon Rifle" the Winchester M1917, it was only ever a prototype and so never received a military model number and Winchester M1917 is a term for this thing) while even the most casual search of firearm histories would absolutely bury you in statements that the StG-44 was the first. Herr Gruber (talk) 23:50, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
And there are plenty of RS saying the mk-42->stg-44 weren't the first assault rifles. And your argument is OR, and I think it's based on the whole central misconception. While yes, the stg-44 may have had some influence on the AK-47, AFAIK russia didn't say "there have been evolutionary developments in firearms around the world that are leading to the merging of SMGs and battle rifles but let's throw all that away. This german STG-44 is obviously a wunderwaffen. We need this nazi wunderwaffen. Make exactly this. Like the B-29 we cloned, and all the other stuff we cloned, like the cameras, and watches, and computers, and so on. Throw away all the research we were doing. Throw away this 7.62x39mm we developed in 1943.. Oh. And yea this wunderwaffen is obviously going to usher in a new era of infantry combat, but let's just wait a decade or so before we really jump on it. Then it will be that much more special. This whole 'all the worlds militaries revolved around the stg-44' idea doesn't seem to have any support. The US military was developing an intermediate cartridge the .276 iirc in 1932. The StG-44 simply didn't play this pivotal role you seem to be implying it played. AFAIK the biggest roles the stg-44 played were the sturmgewhr name, and however much it influenced the AK-47. And this whole idea that there was this tidy A to B to C evolution of assault rifles starting with the stg-44 doesn't seem to be supported by reliable sources. What little role the stg-44 played in world war 2 and what little influence the stg-44 had on anything other than maybe having a small role in the development of the AK-47 seem to be wildly wildly overstated. Heck, the M-16/AR-15 started out as the 7.62x51mm AR-10. The pentagon simply decided to finally use the kind of cartridge that they'd arguably been developing since 1895. They didn't say, "this ar-10 sucks, give me something like the stg-44, the katana of rifles".TeeTylerToe (talk) 04:56, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
So you're trying to argue the gun the entire class of weapons is named after, a class of weapons that did not formally exist before it, didn't define the class of weapons? Yes, the British thought the StG-44 itself was stupid and the Americans compared it unfavourably to the M2 carbine. But then they went away and made their own rifles and when they did they named them after it. You might as well try to argue the V2 wasn't pivotal in US ballistic missile research because of Goddard, even though the only people who paid any real attention to Goddard's work lived in Russia and Germany. Herr Gruber (talk) 05:12, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm arguing that if there are RS that dispute this germany-hitler-stg-44 narrative than it's a npov violation not to include it. OR wise, there are some points I'd like to make. An AR is simply a large caliber SMG or a small caliber MG. That's it. A different cartridge. A 9mm AR-15 is an SMG. A 7.62mm AR is an AR-10 MG. I haven't looked into it, but let's say that the US moved from 7.62x51 to 5.56x45 because a light, fast bullet that fragments and produces a good festering wound, taking soldiers out of combat for a comparatively long time was deemed to be better than a heavy bullet that produced through and throughs. Plus probably better zero drop distance or whatever. They decided to simply change the caliber to a concept that they'd been developing since 1895. You're saying that the US military came to jesus, finding the one true god/religion (it's just a common phrase) with the STG-44 being jesus, but they just changed one thing, and does the stg-44 or even the ak-47 have either of those two advantages? Does the 7.62 kruz or whatever fragment and tumble, and does it have improved zero drop range? No, and no, as far as I know. When the US adopted the M-16 they were actually moving away from the stg-44. They were moving in their own direction. Which makes perfect sense because the only reason anyone would think anything else is if they were trying to force this wunderwaffen narrative on the M-16 with absolutely no support whatsoever. The American M-16 assault rifle is an american invention that was developed along different, diverging paths from the stg-44. You've created this OR no true scotsman first AR definition, the federov's 6.5x50 so so no true scotsman is 6.5x50, the m3 is .30 carbine so no true scotsman is .30 carbine. The M1907 was issued in france so no true scotsman so no true scotsman has a semi-pistol grip with non service approved front full pistol grips. The balloon buster has everything but it was designed both for aircraft use and infantry use so no true scotsman has an aircraft version complementing the infantry version that is designed to mount on an aircraft. Ever more and more tortured your definition becomes and you draw these conclusions from this tortured definition you create where the premise and the conclusion are both wrong. Russia and france had already adopted the federov avtomat and the winchester 1917. The gas tube arrangement that russia adopted may have come from the mk-42 or one of it's predecessors. iirc it was the walther with the upper gas tube but it could easily have been the haenel. But it was the switch from 6.5 to 7.62x39, a round that russia developed independently in '43 that gets it your true scotsman blessing. And for france presumably it was the move from the partial pistol grip to the full pistol grip and the stg-44 certainly has no claim to that. And, as I've said, similarly, the stg 44 had little to no influence on the development of the m-16. And god, it's even more tortured than that. There already was a class name for this group of weapons in the 1930s accepted in germany and the us at least. Machine carbine. All that happened was that someone came up with a snappier name. Like warfighter and all that godawful tripe. But you realize that creating the idiot phrase warfighter didn't change anything... What does it matter if they call it the machine carbine or the self-loading rifle, individual combat weapon, infantry automatic rifle. The air force adopted the m-16 because it was cheap, then mcnamara adopted it because it was the only rifle in contention that fit the needs of all three services. The M-16 was adopted as: "Rifle, Caliber 5.56 mm" And that's the story of how the US military adopted hitler's katana. What conclusions can you draw about the M-16 and the STG-44? Pretty much none. Did the M-16 get it's plastics from the stg-44? It's aluminum? It's caliber? It's fps? It's carry handle? How did the STG-44 influence the Rifle, Caliber 5.56mm M-16? What does it mean that the US (didn't really) choose a marketing term from hitler's propaganda file?TeeTylerToe (talk) 10:39, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
You're getting really confused with this "Winchester 1917" thing. The "Balloon Rifle" is the one from 1917, but would never have got a model number since that indicates year of production and it never entered production (probably due to questions about whether the fearsome power of a canvas bag full of hydrogen really warranted a special weapon to deal with it). It seems to have been an LMG in the form it was in (ie, designed to be mounted) but if it had gone the Villar-Perosa routes ("this is useless, give it to the infantry") it might have ended up pioneering the concept a lot sooner than it was in real history, but we'll never know that. France adopted a select-fire M1907 in line with their "walking fire gun" concept, but the M1907 certainly wasn't designed to be used at short range like a true assault rifle, particularly given how unwieldy any magazine over ten rounds was. And neither the M1907 or the Fedorov Avtomat used a purpose-designed intermediate round, instead using respectively a round designed for hunting and a long rifle round.
It's certainly true that there was a history of development prior to the creation of assault rifles by other countries, which shouldn't be any kind of surprise since if there wasn't it would have been impossible for them to invent their own; yes, the AK represented a Russian attempt to develop a compromise between the beloved PPSh and a long rifle and mechanically was completely unrelated to the StG, but conceptually it was a successor; they looked at the thing, looked at their research and said "yes, that's where we're going with this, let's use this stuff we already know to make one of those our way."
I've said several times that I don't approve of the current article implying that there was no history of development of similar weapons prior to the StG, but equally since prior to that there was no category of weapons called assault rifles it is correct to say it was the crystallisation of the concept at very least. One could certainly reference things like the French walking fire rifle concept, but these early designs are obscure and forgotten because they failed to catch on, so saying they were the de facto first is a little misleading. As with the evolution example, they're the equivalent of dead ends which happened to have the features of a later group.
(Also IIRC the switch to 5.56 wasn't to do with wounding, it was because the M14 was practically unusable in full-auto). Herr Gruber (talk) 21:50, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

The win mod 1907 used the .351 wsl, an intermediate cartridge. Interestingly the article says that an M1 thompson prototype was made in .351 wsl. The ~9mm bullet on a .351 is a little fat, but it's right in the middle of the pack energy wise for an intermediate cartridge. It seems like I'm not alone in being confused about the model 1917 winchester-burton "balloon buster" machine rifle. http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/139141156104/the-winchester-burton-machine-rifle-the Is that name perfectly accurate? I don't know. Want to just call it the balloon buster? Why not? But it had two variants, one for infantry without mounting, and one for aircraft with mounting, some even had bayonet mounts. The select-fire M1907s were issued with 15 or 20 round magazines, not 10 round. "they're the equivalent of dead ends which happened to have the features of a later group." Well, the 1907 was manufactured for 52 years... How much of a dead end/flash in the pan was the 1930s walther machine karbine? How much of a dead end/flash in the pan was the federov avtomat? This flash in the pan/dead end concept seems to be based on this mistaken idea that the STG-44 would replace the federov avtomat as the source of inspiration for the russians which is wrong. This flash in the pan/dead end concept seems to be based on this mistaken idea that individual countries didn't have their own agency, their own development paths that had relatively little influence from the stg-44. In russia it was probably the federov that had more of an influence than the stg-44, which would lead to the argument that it was the federov that was more influential, although less famous and popular with casual ww2 fans who think that the king tiger was the best tank or whatever, and the german jet was the best airplane. It seems like what we're dancing around is just a statement saying that the stg-44 was the first assault rifle to see significant deployment/widespread deployment. The development of ARs in other countries is a surprise to someone reading this article because it says that the AR was first used in ww2, and were pioneered in germany in ww2. Also, while germany did outfit one single division with stg-44s for a short time, a year? AFAIK they then switched to the US M2 carbine and didn't switch back to ARs for decades. So this idea that german army in it's entirety or majority transitioned to the AR is wrong, and this idea stated in this article that the german army adopted the AR abandoning other infantry rifles early and continued using ARs until today is wrong and misleading. This is a second way that the stg-44 was a dead end. When compared to 100 million, is a production of ~440,000 rifles really "large numbers"? And this is all not mentioning apparently the stg-44's main mode of operation was semi-automatic. Full auto was a secondary mode. So this whole idea of giving the front line infantry machine guns, multiplying their firepower is wrong too, I suppose it was there to give individual soldiers the ability to perform suppression fire when it was called for, an ability that russian ppsh-41 soldiers obviously had. One that US marine 4 man fireteams had, that probably the british and french developed as well. The french were trying to develop their Ribeyrolle 1918. It seems arguably that in 1918 the french army sat down and said "Let's develop an assault rifle. Pistol grip, detachable magazine, intermediate cartridge, effective range 400m. Let's make a stg-44. Let's call it a stg-44. Hitler had a lot..." It's just that the Ribeyrolle 1918 didn't quite meet their accuracy requirements. It was a bit too heavy and they gave up rather than soldiering on, probably influenced by outside factors. In 1918 the french military set aside the Ribeyrolle 1918 because it wasn't enough like the stg-44. I've never had any objection to saying that the stg-44 was the first ar to see wide manufacturing and wide deployment, equipping a single division for about a year before the german military who had never adopted the stg-44 as it's main infantry rifle dropped the AR concept entirely. But so far the only thing that's happened is that any edits I've made to the article have been reverted. So how do we move this article away from what it is now to a form that's more representative of the history of ARs as reflected by RS. Whenever I try to remove statements that are factually inaccurate it just gets reverted.TeeTylerToe (talk) 00:16, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

It's your assertion that .351 WSL was an intermediate cartridge since the designers didn't create it to bridge the gap between SMG and AR, they created it for shooting deer.
The balloon buster rifle (that article's name of "Winchester-Burton Machine Rifle" seems the most accurate name) strikes me as a weapon with two configurations rather than two variants, rather like the MG34 Panzerlauf: it was supposed to be used by the crew if the aircraft had to ditch by swapping out the barrel for one with a bayonet lug and sling mount. Like the Villar-Perosa, if it had ever been adopted in any number they'd probably have started issuing ground versions of it to infantry and it would have spun off and become its own thing, but that didn't happen and we don't know if it even worked since the testing data has been lost; I'm not entirely convinced a 10-pound WW1-era MG wouldn't have had some issues with dismantling itself while firing.
Yeah, I know French select-fire M1907s were issues with 15 and 20 rounders (I bought that up earlier) but a 20-rounder for the M1907 looks like this, I don't think you could really consider the result a weapon suitable for close-range engagements.
It wouldn't surprise me if the soldiers with StGs were told to regard auto as a secondary function given that historically European militaries never trusted their troops to not piss away all their ammo (same logic as SMLE magazine cut-offs and the initial reluctance to purchase magazine rifles at all), but does that correlate with how they were used in the field?
I would say it's best to characterise the StG as the first mass produced assault rifle and the first to actually use the name, since neither is particularly contentious, and list earlier examples that fit or sort of fit the category in a "history" or "early examples of the concept" section without asserting they're they first either. Herr Gruber (talk) 00:45, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
that 20 round magazine would be ~seven inches long. An AR-15 magazine is ~7.5 inches long. So I'd say that it just seems overlarge because the rifle itself isn't tall and there's no pistol grip or prominent magazine well. Apparently the ammo conservation problem was particular with the US military as well. I don't think the US Military chose the .351 to shoot deer from airplanes with explosive/incendiary shells. "I would say it's best to characterise the StG as the first mass produced assault rifle and the first to actually use the name, since neither is particularly contentious, and list earlier examples that fit or sort of fit the category in a "history" or "early examples of the concept" section without asserting they're they first either." that seems like a good consensus view. Less of this AR originated in ww2 germany false narrative.TeeTylerToe (talk) 03:06, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Given we're largely agreed here, I'll wait for other input. Re: the .351, that's the game cartridge the M1907 used, not the cartridge the Winchester-Burton used. The latter was a special .345 that was designed primarily as a calibre for incendiary / tracer rounds rather than conventional bullets. I'd assume the ground version was to use a solid bullet, though it didn't actually have to since your second article misses that the USA isn't a signatory of the Saint Petersburg Declaration of 1868 and so would be under no obligation to follow it. Also re: auto, it seems most firearm manuals of the time described select-fire weapons like that, the FG42 manual said it was a semi-automatic rifle that could be used in fully-automatic mode "in an emergency," though granted in the FG42's case it would be more likely to cause the emergency. Herr Gruber (talk) 06:33, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I have again reverted, TeeTylerToe edits. He does not have consensus to make said changes...quite the opposite. He also remove information that was supported by multiple references and replaced it with info that was completely unsourced. Which I find ironic as TeeTylerToe believes the article is "False, unsourced claim, and generally the article's a mess of Apocrypha and bias". Also, TeeTylerToe's edit to this talk page are chaotic to say the least. As others have succinctly said "a wall of questions and comments" that make it difficult to determine what his specific grievance are, or with whom. --RAF910 (talk) 21:21, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Where is the lack of consensus? This discussion has been going on for almost a week and we reached a consensus. If you want to try to change that consensus go ahead, but please stop with your disruptive editing. I've provided multiple reliable sources contradicting the information that I've removed. Even the references themselves contradict the stg-44 narrative, "The much-touted "new" weapon is actually the familiar German machine carbine with a more chest-thumping title." "The completely new name of Sturmgewehr (assault rifle) may be intended to erase any recollection of the mediocre quality of the earlier M. P. 43's, at least so far as new troops and the public are concerned. In any event, the introduction of the title Sturmgewehr, together with the accompanying blast of propaganda concerning the weapon, is but another example of German efforts to exploit the propaganda value inherent in weapons with impressive-sounding titles, such as Panzer, Tiger, Panther, and Flak 88. Since the Sturmgewehr is more easily mass-produced than a rifle or machine gun because of its many stampings and low-power ammunition, and because a machine carbine is needed by desperately fighting German infantry in their efforts to stem the assault of American troops, it is natural that the Germans should make every effort to capitalize on its propaganda potentialities. By dubbing the M. P. 43 the Sturmgewehr, Hitler may also succeed in deceiving many Germans into thinking that this weapon is one of the many decisive "secret weapons" which they have been promised, and which they are told will bring final German victory." The references also support the edits I made. "the Germans rather tardily decided that they needed a weapon representing a compromise between the submachine gun (or machine pistol) and the rifle." "Widely used assault rifles are the United States’ M16, the Soviet Kalashnikov (the AK-47 and modernized versions),", "[The AK-47] has been produced in more countries, and greater quantities, and to a greater degree of international standardization than any other rifle in history." Germany made ~426,000 stg 44s and they equipped one division with them for about a year. They weren't the first in the world, or the first in germany. Over a hundred million ak-47s have been made equipping ~200 russian divisions and ~200 chinese divisions and that's just those two countries. And as the m-16 case study says, the US Military was still uninterested in either the stg-44 or the ak-47. In fact, the study notes that it was in the 1895-1900 timeframe that the US military was studying the wounding capability of smaller, faster rounds such as the 6mm round. That both the M1 garand and the M1 carbine had been developed into automatic rifles during world war 2 without the influence of the stg-44, the automatic m1 garand, for instance, being influenced by plans for a ground war against japan. "While many senior leaders and ordnance officials lauded the capabilities of the .30’06 cartridge, others felt it was overly powerful for the requirements of the modern battlefield. In April 1923, representatives of the Infantry and Cavalry stated they felt that the .30’06 caliber cartridge was one of the main obstacles in the design of a semi-automatic rifle" "He cited studies conducted in Europe on the lethality of smaller caliber cartridges and offered to design a new selfloading rifle in caliber .276. He theorized that the smaller caliber cartridge would be more accurate, weigh less and cost less than the current .30’06 cartridge. Subsequent field trials on the Pedersen rifle and his competitor’s design, the Garand, concluded that the .276 caliber was indeed more suited for a self-loading rifle, and all developmental research for a .30’06 caliber semi-automatic rifle was suspended." They also tested .256, and eventually performed rifle trials comparing a .276 garand design against the .30-06 with the .276 winning the competition, and remember, with the face of an invasion of japan, the US would realize the need for an automatic garand. The sources also go into the western adoption of assault rifles with excruciating detail concluding that US intervention delayed western adoption until the 70s. http://world.guns.ru/assault-e.html that's just one more source that supports my edits. "As others have succinctly said "a wall of questions and comments" that make it difficult to determine what his specific grievance are, or with whom." That makes sense to you? What does it mean? How do you think that consensus is achieved? Do you think that it's whatever you say it is? I made well sourced, well referenced edits. They were reverted. I discussed them on the talk page. The talk page discussion was rather drawn out.TeeTylerToe (talk) 06:41, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
  1. Please read Wikipedia:Too long; didn't read
  2. you remove information that was supported with multiple references, while your edits were completely unrefrenced
  3. this talk page conversation was about the "American Arms Collector, Man at Arms, (Vol. 13, No. 1, January/February 1991), titled The Burton Balloon Buster by William B. Edwards. Mr. Edwards emphatically asserted that this was indeed the first true assault rifle; developed in 1917" which you repeatedly hailed as the gold standard and absolute proof that the STG44 was not the first assault rifle. However, your edit made no mention of it. That is called BAIT & SWITCH.--RAF910 (talk) 10:13, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
WP:TLDR an essay, "Substituting a flippant "tl;dr" for reasoned response and cordiality stoops to ridicule and amounts to thought-terminating cliché. Just as one cannot prove through verbosity, neither can one prove by wielding a four letter acronym." Although fair's fair. You do say very little. Is your view of life dr;dr? Don't read, didn't read? Nothing I added is unsourced/unreferenced, not to mention, you may have noticed a bit of a discussion on the talk page? How is that bait and switch? It's a well respected firearm publication editor posted in a well respected reliable source saying that the stg-44 wasn't the first assault rifle. But did you notice that I've also posted a long string of other sources supporting that? http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=121 http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/139141156104/the-winchester-burton-machine-rifle-the http://world.guns.ru/assault-e.html http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/02/sturmgewehr-assault-rifle-developments-prior-1942/ http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/07/05/americas-first-assault-rifle-designed-world-war/ http://www.wideopenspaces.com/americas-first-assault-rifle-the-burton-1917-light-machine-rifle/ TeeTylerToe (talk) 11:57, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps this could be refactored in line with WP:RFC, a specific question asked and an area set aside for responses?

Was the StG-44 the first assault rifle, designed and employed as such?

Discussion[edit]

  • Yes, of course it was. There may have been precursor weapons which performed the same function, but they rarely got beyond prototype or experimental stage. The StG-44 was designed to fill the assault rifle role, produced and employed in large numbers. It is quite obviously the first of many similar weapons, all sharing similar characteristics, and all commonly described as assault rifles. --Pete (talk) 07:08, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes, of course it was. I agree 100% with Pete. Perfectly, eloquently and succinctly stated.--RAF910 (talk) 13:01, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
It's self-contradictory. "there may have been precursor weapons [sharing the characteristics of, and commonly described as assault rifles, but] It is quite obviously the first [except the other ones I just mentioned that came before it].TeeTylerToe (talk) 00:14, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Here's the bit you left out: "…they rarely got beyond prototype or experimental stage…". We can burrow down that rabbit hole as far as you like, but it's all words, not assault rifles down there. I think we're looking for consensus, rather than a stubborn holdout. --Pete (talk) 01:13, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
If you'll read the discussion above, Herr Gruber and I came to an agreement to say that the StG-44 was the first mass produced assault rifle, rather the NPOV violating statements currently being defended by the stubborn holdout RAF910 that assault rifles were (apocryphally) developed in germany, (apocryphally) during world war 2, that the intermediate cartridge was (apocryphally) developed in germany, that the 7.92x33mm kruz was (apocryphally) revolutionary and not a direct development of a swiss intermediate cartridge (iirc). The stg-44 probably wasn't the first rifle with the over the barrel gas system, iirc the lewis 1918 "assault phase rifle" had an over the barrel gas system.TeeTylerToe (talk) 02:09, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
The Lewis rifle never made it past the prototype stage and fired a full rifle round. Not an assault rifle. --Pete (talk) 06:58, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
You make an excellent argument against this patently ridiculous idea that there exists some true definition of what is and isn't an AR and what is and isn't an intermediate round, but what does that have to do with when and where ARs were developed, the significance of the 7.92 kurz, where the intermediate cartridge was developed, and which rifle first had an over the barrel gas system? Are you conceding every point except the over the barrel gas system one? Are you making the same argument about first ar that you're making about first over the barrel gas system? The wright flyer wasn't a particularly useful airplane it wasn't built in significant numbers and it wasn't adopted by any nation or even company iirc, but it was still the first airplane. There are reliable sources saying that the STG didn't have the first over the barrel gas system. It would be an npov violation to try to suppress that.TeeTylerToe (talk) 10:36, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
You called for opinions, and I'm giving mine. If you want to berate me for having a different opinion to yours, that's fine. So far you haven't offered any arguments sufficient to make me change my mind. As for spurious arguments about aircraft, I don't think there's any one ultimate definition of an airliner or a fighter or a patrol aircraft, but the Wright Flyer wouldn't match any. Likewise assault rifles, a specialised variety of firearm. Cheers. --Pete (talk) 12:07, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

"The research led to an article published in the NRA Journal for the American Arms Collector, Man at Arms, (Vol. 13, No. 1, January/February 1991), titled The Burton Balloon Buster by William B. Edwards. Mr. Edwards emphatically asserted that this was indeed the first true assault rifle; developed in 1917. The father of this remarkable weapon was none other than Frank B. Burton, the noted engineer who worked with John Browning on the first BAR." http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=121 Other experts argue that the first was the federov avtomat, others argue that it was the winchester 1907, or the winchester-burton 1917. Some say it was the Ribeyrolle CM 1918, some say it was the Weibel/Danrif Rifle, some say it was the 1932 Korovin Avtomat, or the vollmer m35, or the ZK-412. There are plenty of reliable sources disputing any claim of what the first assault rifle was. How about maybe this article not have the falsehood that ARs were first developed in germany. How about maybe this article not have the falsehood that ARs were first developed in ww2? How about maybe this article not have the falsehood that the 7.92 kurz was revolutionary. How about maybe this article not have the falsehood that the stg-44 introduced the over the barrel gas system, inline stock, pistol grip, or the first to have that combination? What if the history section didn't violate NPOV policy? What if this article followed the same rules of every other article and what if editors weren't pushing apocryphal POV narratives that are contradicted by reliable sources?TeeTylerToe (talk) 13:15, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Yes, of course the StG-44 was the first assault rifle. No matter how emphatically Mr. Edwards asserts that the "Burton Balloon Buster" was the first one... Thomas.W talk 13:40, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment, (un-involved editor here), this "Discussion" section is going no where because no one is citing sources (except for one pretty unreliable source cited by TeeTylerToe that, filtered through WP:YESPOV, would rank as cited opinion at best). Content on Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, not the opinions of its editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talkcontribs)
It's a discussion about whether to keep the article as it is or making drastic changes, so why would anyone wanting to keep it as it is need to post any sources here? There are plenty of sources in the article... Thomas.W talk 15:57, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
The research led to an article published in the NRA Journal for the American Arms Collector, Man at Arms, (Vol. 13, No. 1, January/February 1991), titled The Burton Balloon Buster by William B. Edwards. Mr. Edwards emphatically asserted that this was indeed the first true assault rifle; developed in 1917. The father of this remarkable weapon was none other than Frank B. Burton, the noted engineer who worked with John Browning on the first BAR." http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=121 http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/139141156104/the-winchester-burton-machine-rifle-the http://world.guns.ru/assault-e.html http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/02/sturmgewehr-assault-rifle-developments-prior-1942/ http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/07/05/americas-first-assault-rifle-designed-world-war/ http://www.wideopenspaces.com/americas-first-assault-rifle-the-burton-1917-light-machine-rifle/ http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/04/04/the-winchester-machine-rifle-wwis-anti-balloon-assault-rifle/ http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a21631/forgotten-weapons-americas-first-assault-rifle/ Winchester Repeating Arms Company By Herb Houze 978-0873497862. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TeeTylerToe (talkcontribs)
Yes, you've told us that a few times, and we're still not the least impressed by what your Mr. Edwards is saying. Thomas.W talk 16:31, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

"The Winchester-Burton rifle must be accorded the distinction of being the first assault rifle ever to be made."[1]TeeTylerToe (talk) 17:13, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Houze, Herbert G. (2004). Winchester Repeating Arms Company : its history & development from 1865 to 1981 (Soft cover. ed.). Iola, WI: Krause Publications, c. ISBN 978-0873497862. 
NO...--RAF910 (talk) 17:16, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
It's a book by Winchester about Winchester, for crying out loud, so of course they would claim that their rifle was the first assault rifle... Thomas.W talk 17:23, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Do you have anything to back up that assertion? It's a book about the company published by Krause Publications. What ties does the book have to the company? How is the book "by winchester"?TeeTylerToe (talk) 17:27, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Houze was the curator of Winchester's own firearms museum ([1]), that is a Winchester employee. Don't you ever check things? Thomas.W talk 17:39, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Houze seems to have been the curator of what was the winchester firearm museum, a wing of the buffalo bill center of the west, dedicated the winchester firearms museum in '76 then re-dedicated the cody firearms museum in '91. As far as I can tell it has no affiliation with the winchester company, although presumably winchester donated firearms to their collection and may have donated money at one time. As far as I can tell Houze was never an employee of winchester firearms, or affiliated with them in any way. "Cody Firearms Museum By Herbert G. Houze, former curator" https://centerofthewest.org/explore/firearms/TeeTylerToe (talk) 23:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit-warring[edit]

I have reported TeeTylerToe here. Other editors are welcome to comment, though TTT's bizarre claims there are doing him no favours. --Pete (talk) 07:48, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Update...For informational purposes...TeeTylerToe has been blocked for two weeks for Edit Warring on the Assault rifle page.--RAF910 (talk) 22:57, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Time enough for the message to be accepted and for future behaviour to be more coöperative, I trust. --Pete (talk) 11:47, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't think so...If you read his talk page comments regarding the block, not only does he believe that he has done nothing wrong, he claims that we are all meat puppets. He is also mocking the process. I don't think he understands that his foolhardy attempt to trick other users into an edit war backfired on him.--RAF910 (talk) 12:05, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Update...For informational purposes...TeeTylerToe has also lost his Talk Page Access for wikilawyering and refusing to accept responsibly for his actions.--RAF910 (talk) 00:58, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Looks like the community is close to exhausting it's patience with him. - BilCat (talk) 01:22, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Unless he accepts the pause to do some serious reflection on his role here, and comes back with a statement of contrition, apology, and promise to lift his game, then I think it's highly likely he'll repeat past performance, find another article and be disruptive there. This page is probably not the best place to discuss further action, especially while he's unable to respond, but we've just seen him at work, and I think TTT is a good case for seeking a community ban at ANI, if he attempts yet more disruption. --Pete (talk) 02:27, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Update...For informational purposes...TeeTylerToe has been blocked from editing for a period of 6 months for continuous uncooperative and unproductive editing, edit warring, tendentious edits, POV-pushing, talk page filibustering and lack of insight when clearly proven wrong by other reliable sources--RAF910 (talk) 20:18, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Update...For informational purposes...TeeTylerToe attempted to appeal his 6 month block. However, consensus not only upheld the block, it was upgraded to an indefinite block.--RAF910 (talk) 09:58, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. He was given plenty of rope. - BilCat (talk) 10:47, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for sticking my nose into an old discussion here but actually MP44 is NOT the first assault rifle. The first one is Fedorov Avtomat, which was already used in WW1. And although FA was only manufactured in much smaller number, it already passed the stage of experimental already.

The amount of MP44, though greater than FA, was also very small compared to the total size of German soldiers and the total number of other rifles at that time. 27.64.87.238 (talk) 14:25, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

Term no longer used by the US military?[edit]

After looking through some US military documents in an attempt to make a point about the term "assault rifle," I discovered that the US military does not appear to use the term anymore. Weapons such as the M16A2 and M4 are referred to as "rifle" and "carbine," respectively. US military sources in the article that use the term "assault rifle" are all from the 1960s and 70s. In a few minutes of searching online, I couldn't find any official US military documents which used the term "assault rifle" newer than 1980. Some examples of modern usage are this training manual from 2006 (which has 125 occurrences of "rifle" but only one of "assault", in defining "assault course"), this description, this Marine Corps report from 2007, this training guide from 2008, and this Air Force training manual from 2013, all from .mil domains.

Do people think it's worth mentioning that at least the US military seems to have abandoned the term? Prior to looking into it just now, I was under the impression that "assault rifle" was a technical term in current use by at least the US military, and this article as it currently stands seems to back up that misunderstanding. I appreciate that the US military doesn't "own" the term, but it would be useful for people to know that it seems to be falling out of use as a technical term by one of the most significant users.

Thoughts?

Haxney (talk) 12:02, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

That's interesting research, but it is original research, which isn't allowed on Wikipedia. If some source could be found that makes the point directly then we coould include it. Felsic2 (talk) 12:15, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Assault rifle. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:11, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Assault rifle. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:30, 10 July 2017 (UTC)