Talk:Astronomy in the medieval Islamic world

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  (Redirected from Talk:Astronomy in medieval Islam)
Jump to: navigation, search
Former good article Astronomy in the medieval Islamic world was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
January 3, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed
January 20, 2008 Good article nominee Listed
August 9, 2010 Good article reassessment Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Community GAR[edit]

This article is now being reassessed at WP:Good article reassessment/Astronomy in medieval Islam/1.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Geometry guy (talkcontribs) 19:12, 28 July 2010‎ (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 7 external links on Astronomy in the medieval Islamic world. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 10:20, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

The Bengali calendar[edit]

Kautilya3 The information you removed is supported by a view held by many sources in Bangladesh, India and the West. You have not provided any evidence by way of sources to prove that the information is historically inaccurate. It is the origin of the Bengali calendar which is in debate; not the fact of its reform during the reign of Akbar.

If you disagree, why can't you add lines representing your view? I do not think removing a large section is due on your part. It is tantamount to censoring the obvious Islamic influence on a subcontinent calendar.--Orient Bengal (talk) 00:55, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

As an outsider to this argument, which seems to have spilled over from the discussion at Talk:Bengali calendar and your talk page, I would note that there is no obligation on an editor removing material to provide sources; it is the obligation of the editor adding material to an article to provide reliable sources. The sources provided thus far in the section on the Bengali calendar are at best marginal: newspapers and generalist encyclopedias, and are not the kind of scholarly source expected to support a discussion of an astronomical calendar and its historical origins. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 03:33, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I see no consensus in Talk:Bengali calendar, but a lot of controversial statements and edit warring. The particular version of the calendar has significance for over a hundred million people. The sources given represent the most commonly held view on the calendar's reform, not its origin. --Orient Bengal (talk) 04:29, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
Pretty much all the content you have written here is refuted on Talk:Bengali calendar, which is the main page for this subject. Akbar's calendar was based on the pre-Islamic Persian calendar,[1] and Bengali calendar was based on Surya-Siddhanta of India.[2] Painting it as "Islamic" is a POV being propagated by contemporary Bangladesh media. Their only foundation is some vague remarks in Amartya Sen's book, which they have misinterpreted. Sen said merely that the era of the Bengali calendar is origined at Hijri, which even Bengali Hindus have adopted. This was cited by Sen as an example of Bengali syncretism, but no syncretism is evident in contemporary Bangladeshi discussion. None of this has anything to do with astronomy in the Islamic world. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:58, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
You haven't refuted anything. You are simply presenting a minority viewpoint. William D Crump, Nandan Shrestha, Kunal Chakrabarti and Shoaib Daniyal are not Bangladeshis; the only Bangladeshi media source given is of an article by an Indian writer. And of course the calendar is not Islamic. But it was reformed by Muslims and this article documents the influence of Muslims. The Chinese and Koreans aren't Islamic either.--Orient Bengal (talk) 10:47, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
Regarding syncretism, its interesting that you bring it up. The main article on Akbar's calendar does note the syncretism. It's self evident. One source, Manav Ratti, has described it as calendrical secularism. But mentioning the topic in an article on Muslim influence does not discredit the syncretic character. The topic is also mentioned in the Hindu calendar article's introduction. --Orient Bengal (talk) 11:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
Great, thanks for recognizing that the calendar was not Islamic.
  • If a pre-Islamic Persian calendar and a pre-Islamic Surya Siddhanta calendar were combined in some way by a Muslim ruler (which is not really certain), it does not suddenly become "astronomy in the Islamic world". There might still be some value in adding a section on the Tarikh-i-Ihali calendar, while clearly emphasizing that it was an adaptation of a pre-Islamic Persian calendar.
  • The Bengali calendar, however, shows no influence of either Islamic calendar or the Tarikh-i-Ilahi. All the sources you have given are wishy-washy and don't actually state what influence there was. I have quoted below a scholarly article on the History of Astronomy, which says clearly that the pre-existing Bengali calendar "was not interfered with". The new year continued to be Mesha Sankranti (sun entering Aries), not the vernal equinox of the Tarikh. The month names continued to be the traditional ones. The month lengths were also those based on Surya Siddhanta. The only change was the change from the Saka era to the Hijri era, and that has absolutely nothing to do with astronomy.
  • Finally, you are continuing WP:edit warring. If you pursue down this path, you are likely to face sanctions. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
Kautilya3, you are stirring up an unnecessary misunderstanding and controversy.
The sources state that the calendar reflects the reforms of Muslim astronomers like Fathullah Shirazi. This is an article which is precisely for the purpose of covering the history of medieval astronomy by Muslims.--Orient Bengal (talk) 11:52, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Amanat, Abbas (2013), "Persian Nuqtawis and the Shaping of the Doctrine of "Universal Conciliation" in Mughal India", in Orkhan Mir-Kasimov, Unity in Diversity: Mysticism, Messianism and the Construction of Religious Authority in Islam, BRILL, p. 380, ISBN 978-90-04-26280-5 
  2. ^ Sen, Samarendra Nath; Shukla, Kripa Shankar (2000), History of Astronomy in India, Indian National Science Academy, p. 330 : "When Akbar introduced the solar Tarikh Ilahi calendar for state purposes, Bengal had already a solar calendar. The year of this calendar, however, commenced from the solar month of Vaishakha with the entry of the Sun to the 1st point of nirayana Mesha rasi as per Sūrya-siddhānta sidereal system and not from vernal equinox like the newly introduced Tarikh Ilahi calendar, but this calendar was not interfered with. The era, that was, however followed then in Bengal was Lakshmana Sena era which was used mainly in Mithila and other neighbouring areas for luni-solar calendar. When Ilahi solar era was introduced in AD 1584 with effect from AD 1556, Bengal also switched over to a new solar era, called as 'Bengali San'. This was done by adopting the commencement year of Tarikh Ilahi era to be also the commencement year of Bengali San. This means that the starting era year of Bengali San was 963 in AD 1556 like the Tarikh Ilahi. Therefore, the Bengali San can be calculated by adding 963 with the number of solar years that have elapsed since 1556. The Bengali San commences from mid-April (Mesa Samkranti), and hence the Bengali San corresponding to AD 1983 (mid-April to December) will work out as (1983-1556) + 963 = 1390."

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Orient Bengal: First of all, welcome to wikipedia. This is an article on "Astronomy in...", and none of the sources you cite discuss or mention this. Yes, there is a mention of an astronomer in one source. That is still not due or relevant to this article. An astronomer could comment on a fish, that doesn't mean those comments on fish belong to this article. I would welcome a section that actually discusses how Akbar era astronomy impacted its calendar or something else, with reliable sources and page numbers. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:09, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Even were the discussion of calendars relevant to astronomy, this article is on "…the Medieval Islamic World". The earliest event mentioned in the section on the Bengali calendar was the calendar reform of Emperor Akbar in the Sixteenth Century; by even the most generous definition, the Sixteenth Century falls outside the Middle Ages. The later events mentioned fall even further outside the medieval era. This topic does not belong in this article unless it can be firmly related by reliable sources to the Middle Ages and specifically to medieval astronomy. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 15:50, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, SteveMcCluskey. Excellent point you make, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:20, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on Astronomy in the medieval Islamic world. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

You may set the |checked=, on this template, to true or failed to let other editors know you reviewed the change. If you find any errors, please use the tools below to fix them or call an editor by setting |needhelp= to your help request.

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

If you are unable to use these tools, you may set |needhelp=<your help request> on this template to request help from an experienced user. Please include details about your problem, to help other editors.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 02:44, 11 July 2017 (UTC)