Talk:Astronomy in the medieval Islamic world

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Former good article Astronomy in the medieval Islamic world was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
January 3, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed
January 20, 2008 Good article nominee Listed
August 9, 2010 Good article reassessment Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article
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Proposal to move this page to Islam and astronomy[edit]

This title implies that some astronomy is somehow "islamic" which is a POV. I think it would be better to call it Islam and astronomy, because that would not make any implications that astronomy is either Islamic, yet at the same time, it would mantain the connection between the two.--Sefringle 01:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

  • No objection. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 22:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I strongly object per the arguments already given at Islamic mathematics and Islamic medicine: Islamic astronomy is the common name used in academic literature and the title "Islam and astronomy" implies a connection between Islam and astronomy which isn't there at all. —Ruud 20:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Everytime Sefringle argues about articles' titles they forget about the common usage in academic literature. However, i showed no objection here as both of your opinions remain valid though leaning toward keeping the actual title. Sefringle, please read again the lead. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 21:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
There are some issues such as "Moon sighting" which are related to Islam, as Imam Sadiq says about fasting in Ramadan. Therefor we can speak about especial astronomy which relates to Islam. There is another kind of astronomy which is forbidden in Islam i.e. try to know future by using astronomy. --Seyyed(t-c) 12:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
There is academic confusion between astrology and astronomy. Astrology is prohibited and astronomy is encouraged. A celestial object can change aims and object (luck) is the main concern of astrology, whereas the same celestial object can change atmosphere (e.g Nucleosynthesis) for bio or abiogenesis -- this is why it is astronomical branch. It is derived from Peak of Eloquence. Science has no religion or language so astronomy is not the domain of any religion. However, its development may be credited to the followers of that religion per their constructive contribution e.g. more than one earths had already been pointed out by Ali Ibn Abi Talib. Nannadeem (talk) 18:09, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Community GAR[edit]

This article is now being reassessed at WP:Good article reassessment/Astronomy in medieval Islam/1.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Geometry guy (talkcontribs) 19:12, 28 July 2010‎ (UTC)

WP:NAME[edit]

Islamic astronomy redirects here, and the article lead begins with bolded Islamic astronomy. The current page-title isn't very fortunate, as it applies the western division medieval to Islam. This is oxymoronic, medieval by definition is the period between classical antiquity and the Rensaissance, and there was neither a period of "ancient Islam" nor one of "Renaissance Islam". The division is not applicable.

So why not just move the page back to Islamic astronomy, which is the topic ostensibly discussed here and which points here already, as it has no other conceivable scope. I am suggesting this to help encourage a proper and meaningful use of the adjective "medieval": the word has an actual meaning and it doesn't just mean "barbaric" or "knights with swords", it means "European history between Late Antiquity and the Renaissance". --dab (𒁳) 09:30, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

It will be an uncontroversial move, I think we should do it. Bladesmulti (talk) 09:34, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
I just noticed the same bullshit at the heliocentrism article. Glad to see I'm not the only one who cares. Tried to move it, but I'm too much of a peasant to move it over the redirect. Maybe by 2018. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:30, May 15, 2016 (UTC)
This page has a long history of being renamed. As best I could reconstruct from searching the history and histories of the redirect pages that link here:
As much as I like the simplicity of Islamic Astronomy (which apparently was the original title), in view of this history, we should be careful about further renaming. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 01:41, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
On second thought, since this article is not about modern astronomical thought in the Islamic world, it does need a temporal marker. Although the medieval period is characteristically European, the term does (as the OED notes) relate "to a period of time intervening between (periods designated as) ancient and modern". It seems the present title is about as good as we've been able to get. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 18:57, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Indian influences[edit]

A series of recent edits have deleted references to Indian influences on Islamic astronomy, despite the well attested fact that Muslim scholars engaged in active translation of Indian astronomical texts (the Sindhind) into Arabic. I am restoring this well documented material. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 01:48, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, 'India' or 'Indian Astronomy' had no influence on Astronomy in medieval Islam. As far as Sindhind is concerned, that was a sindhi work adapted by Arabs after Sindh was conquered by Muhammad bin Qasim. previously that area was known as sindh not Bharat(india), you can check the old maps. sindh was a separate state ruled by raja dahir then it became part of Sub-Continent (Hindustan) then it became part of mughal empire then British india and finally today its part of Pakistan. It was never 'India'. Moreover the indians were good at astrology, so technically they were aware of astronomy but saying that it influenced astronomy in medieval Islam is not correct because merchants usually don't carry 'Wisdom Scrolls' with them. Muhammadahmad79 (talk) 05:05, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
This is revisionist history. According to Al Beruni, "India" started at the port of Tis, the present day Chabahar. It included all of Balochistan and Sindh. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:16, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Dear, It is not just about the name, even if Al-Beruni stated that sindh is a part of india(While I know it is not, because you haven't seen the old arab maps in which almost all the modern day Pakistan is stated as Sindh) still it doesn't make it a part of india. Indian Astronomy is completely something else and you cannot find that in Islamic astronomy. Sindhind is something else its not a part of indian astronomy and is a part of arab astronomy, read 'Muhammad bin Qasim A young General' in which the inputs of sindh in Islamic world are stated. Muhammadahmad79 (talk) 15:47, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Pakistan is a twentieth-century creation and has nothing to do with the discussion of the limits of ancient India. The astronomy of the Sindhind was studied by Islamic scholars who traveled to India; the fact that one such Islamic scholar, al-Biruni, considered that astronomy to be an Indian contribution has significantly more weight than a modern biography of Muhammad bin Qasim. I was struck by the inconsistent logic of your argument: Indian astronomy is unlike Islamic astronomy and Sindhind (which you deny is Indian) is part of arab astronomy. If we accept Biruni's evidence that Sindhind is Indian, your whole argument falls apart. BTW, I couldn't find a book by that title in Google Book Search; do you have more bibliographic details? --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 16:43, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry! you lack the information for the argument. what is 'ancient India'??? Its Sub-Continent. Plus provide the reference of Al-Beruni Statement. Muhammadahmad79 (talk) 13:05, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Here's the reference from Biruni talking about the astronomy of the Sindhind and attributing it to the Hindus and (in part) to Brahmagupta, with a nice outline showing the content of the latter's work:[1] The contents show that the Brahmasiddanta treats the classic topics of Greek and later Arabic mathematical astronomy. In his preface (p. xxxi), Edward Sachau, the translator of Biruni's work, describes eighth-century contacts of Islamic scholars with the astronomy of the Sindhind and notes that "It was on this occasion that the Arabs first became acquainted with a scientific system of astronomy. They learned from Brahmagupta earlier than from Ptolemy."

Do you have a source for your biography of Muhammad bin Qasim? --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 14:17, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

At the time of brahamagupta, Mughals were ruling 'Sub-Continent'. plus specify that where al-beruni stated that 'india' starts from port of Tis and include modern day balochistan and Sindh. Moreover your argument on brahmisidhanta is not even logical. Muhammadahmad79 (talk) 08:44, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, that is totally wrong. Brahmagupta lived in the 7th century! For India starting with Tiz, please the Chabahar page, which I already linked several days ago. In any case, you have deleted reliably sourced content from this article and your arguments are all full of WP:OR. Please respect Wikipedia policies and provide reliable sources for any further claims. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:45, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
@Muhammadahmad79: said: "your argument on brahmisidhanta is not even logical." If you have problems with the reliable sources I have cited and quoted, you should provide reliable sources stating that Arab astronomy was not influenced by the astronomy of the Brahmasiddanta.
This discussion is becoming increasingly repetitive and nonproductive; please don't step over the edge into disruptive editing. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 18:11, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Just reread what Sachau had to say (p. xxxi) about the transmission of astronomy from India to the Islamic world:
"In this communication between India and Bagdad [sic] we must not only distinguish between two different roads, but also between two different periods.
"As Sindh was under the actual rule of the Khalif Mansur (a.d 753-774), there came embassies from that part of India to Bagdad, and among them scholars, who brought along with them two books, the Brahmasiddhanta to Brahmagupta (Sindhind), and his Khandakhddyaka (Arkand). With the help of these pandits, Alfazari, perhaps also Yakub Ibn Tarik, translated them. Both works have been largely used, and have exercised a great influence. It was on this occasion that the Arabs first became acquainted with a scientific system of astronomy. They learned from Brahmagupta earlier than from Ptolemy.
"Another influx of Hindu learning took place under Harun, a.d. 786-808."
This provides further evidence that Sindh was considered a part of India. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 18:59, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
@Steve No, that provides nothing except your classic "biased interpretation" of constant digging of one-sided stuff. (ManFromMohenjodaro 20:59, 16 July 2016 (UTC))

References

  1. ^ Bīrūnī, Muḥammad ibn Aḥmad (1910), "Hindu Literature in the Other Sciences, Astronomy, Astrology, Etc.", Alberuni's India: An Account of the Religion, Philosophy, Literature, Geography, Chronology, Astronomy, Customs, Laws and Astrology of India about A.D. 1030, 1, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trübner, pp. 152–155