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Mid 19th century situation - positivism is missing here, German situation need differentiation[edit]

moved from User talk:DVdm

Hi DVdm, I just saw your revert of my edit at Atheism - on what happened in France, Brazil, Turkey and Germany bwetween 1830 and 1920. Perhaps I can demand a bit of argumentation beyond the simple revert and claim of lack of sources (gave some and can easily give more - read the articles into which I linked...) - as a trained philospher and historian. Reverting is just so easy. Best regards --Olaf Simons (talk) 13:01, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

tell me where you need sources and we get that done if it really is the sources you are missing. --Olaf Simons (talk) 13:06, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi Olaf. I checked the source that you gave and could not find any basis for your claims, like "The strongest force of the mid 19th century... etc". I think that we need sources for such statements. Obviously further discussion does not belong here, but on the article talk page Talk:Atheism. Cheers. - DVdm (talk) 15:15, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

here my edit:

Baron d'Holbach was a prominent figure in the French Enlightenment who is best known for his atheism and for his voluminous writings against religion, the most famous of them being The System of Nature (1770) but also Christianity Unveiled. One goal of the French Revolution was a restructuring and subordination of the clergy with respect to the state through the Civil Constitution of the Clergy. Attempts to enforce it led to anti-clerical violence and the expulsion of many clergy from France, lasting until the Thermidorian Reaction. The radical Jacobins seized power in 1793, ushering in the Reign of Terror. The Jacobins were deists and introduced the Cult of the Supreme Being as a new French state religion. Some atheists surrounding Jacques Hébert instead sought to establish a Cult of Reason, a form of atheistic pseudo-religion with a goddess personifying reason. The strongest force of the mid 19th century was the positivist movement formulated and propagated by Auguste Comte that led to the establishment of influential positivist societies in France, Britain and Brazil. Positivism was strictly anti-metaphysical - God would not appear in scientific problems so the premise - but by 1848 ready to step beyond atheism. The question whether God existed was, so Comte's deconstruction of the debate, a theological question.[1] Positivism would have to leave this debate and to find out how religion and theology could actually be replaced - by a new Religion of Humanity, a system in which humanity would be the godless supreme being. The establishment of positivist churches eventually divided the movement Comte had founded into a branch interested in positivism strictly as an anti-metaphysical paradigm of the modern sciences and proponents of a world religion of Comtean positivism that influenced the Brazilian and later under Kemal Atatürk the Turkish nation-building process.

The rivaling force of the atheist movement rose in the latter half of the 19th century in a post Hegelian move in Germany with philosophers in the wide range from Arthur Schopenhauer, Ludwig Feuerbach, Max Stirner, Karl Marx, and Friedrich Nietzsche.[2] Feuerbach was particularily influential with his deconstruction of Christianity and, in his Heidelberg Lectures of 1848, of Religion in the broader spectrum. Marx and Engels formulated a new form of political materialism as the philosophy of Communism, a philosophy that would be most interested in the material base of all living conditions.

  1. ^ Auguste Comte, "Atheism, like theology, discusses insoluble mysteries" [1]
  2. ^ Ray, Matthew Alun (2003). Subjectivity and Irreligion: Atheism and Agnosticism in Kant, Schopenhauer, and Nietzsche. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. ISBN 978-0-7546-3456-0. Retrieved 2011-04-09. 
I inserted Comte and I slightly revised the statements on the German situation. (Plus: I deleted a statement about the scularisation of Italy that was rather out of place and lacking citation, so the note that was already there). The footnote you objected refers specifically to Comte's position towards atheism. He is a de facto atheist, but not ready to stay in this debate because he considers it to be a theological debate designed to prolong the revolutionary state... You, however, want a footnote for the statement that Positivism is the most influential atheist doctrine of the mid 19th century. I am not quite sure whether books on positivism make this statement. It's cheap and they are not concerned with the general history of atheism. We just do not have a second global movement of that sort in the area. Britain, Brazil, Turkey are interesting candidates of the experiment. You can have secondary literature on each case. The general shift in the sciences towards Positivism - read the Wikipedia articles on this, that will not find any rival anywhere. Marxism becomes politically more important with the Russian Revolution (and stagnates in the sciences); and whom would Lenin attack? the present brand of Austrian German positivists around Ernst Mach with his 1908 book against them. Mach leads to Einstein, and Hawkings but also to the Vienna Circle (this is credited later) - so somehow we have a gap in the 19th century part. Things that are known in the 20th century part do not have their base in the 19th century part. By the way: "Early modern era" - ends around 1800, the section which I revised leads it to the 20th century and I would strongly promote a 19th century headline. If you want a book that says explicity that positivism was the most important mover before Marxism had its political breakthrough - well then I'd recommend: find a more subtle wording. To simply delete - is the simple thing that does not solve the problem I am hinting at. Besides: you deleted more - also my reconfiguration of the German part... It's cheap editing to undo with a click (my view as an administrator on de.wp) --Olaf Simons (talk) 19:36, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Ancient meaning[edit]

A friend once told me that the original word "Atheos" was used in ancient Greece to describe Christians, on account of the fact that they refused to worship the Greeks' gods. Is this true? It does make sense, since that one meaning of rejecting deities "sanctioned" and supported by the government or society fits quite well with much of the history of both Christianity and Judaism. Even to this day many who practice these religions adamantly refuse to accept anything that suggests some other "God", as supreme being or as the source of creation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 22:15, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I do not know the answer to your question without investigating myself but wiktionary:atheism and wiktionary:ἄθεος#Ancient Greek may be of help to you. Jason Quinn (talk) 19:25, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Criticism of atheism section needed[edit]

This page needs a "Criticism of atheism" section, just as the Wiki article on any religion has a "Criticism of said religion" section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MagicatthemovieS (talkcontribs) 19:13, 10 October 2015‎ (UTC)

Your claim is not true. Just a few examples of religion articles that do not have any criticism section: Hinduism Judaism Shinto. If you make grandiose claims like the one above, please check your facts. Arnoutf (talk) 19:32, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Please put new talk page messages at the bottom of talk pages and sign your messages with four tildes (~~~~). Thanks.
Also note that atheism is not a religion, so comparing this article with articles about religions is not very convincing. And even if it were, see also wp:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. - DVdm (talk) 08:43, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Second this. The argument presented for the section is logically flawed. MagicatthemovieS, you should revise your argument and flesh it out with some details, otherwise your proposal just feels incomplete. Jason Quinn (talk) 09:59, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Back in 2007 (when I first started editing), a criticism section was integrated into the article, see this discussion, and criticism sections are discouraged, see this essay. --Modocc (talk) 11:46, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Riddle me this - if it's alright that Hinduism, Judaism and Shinto don't have a "Criticism" section of their Wiki article, than why must Christianity and Islam?— Preceding unsigned comment added by MagicatthemovieS (talkcontribs) 20:07, 13 October 2015‎ (UTC)
I have no idea why Christianity or Islam have criticism sections, and to be honest, since this is neither the Christianity nor the Islam article it is an irrelevant issue here. It is a question for the talk page of those religions, not here. Arnoutf (talk) 20:48, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
MagicatthemovieS, please sign your talk messages with four tildes (~~~~). Thanks.
Off topic here - Perhaps because some religions attract more notable criticism than others. Who knows? Who cares? - DVdm (talk) 20:51, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Very fresh research - U.S. Public Becoming Less Religious[edit]

Dear friends, have you seen this very fresh research - [2] U.S. Public Becoming Less Religious, especially young people !!!! I think the new figures must be reflected in the article. What you think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Миша Карелин (talkcontribs) 16:08, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Why? This article is about the global phenomenon and is not limited to the US. Perhaps better suited in a US specific article. Arnoutf (talk) 19:10, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
But we have Demographics section in this article (with separate description of USA Demographics). M.Karelin (talk) 05:31, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Atheism ? or a god of Retribution ??  :-( ...  :-)[edit]

Does one of the contributors suggest that atheism is a rejection of the assumption of a vengeful god ?!  :-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:59, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Does this diagram represent different varieties of atheism or breast cancer in general ?