Talk:Australia

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Social liberalism[edit]

The user Andreas11213 keeps restoring "social liberalism" to the section about Victoria and other states in place of "progressive". I am utterly lost. What has social liberalism got to do with this? The section says certain states are "comparatively conservative"; surely then the remaining states are "comparatively progressive" not "socially liberal". Social liberalism can be both conservative (when contrasted with social democracy) and progressive (when contrasted with classical liberalism). Moreover, as far as I can see none of the references cited even mention social liberalism. So what is going on here? Colonial Overlord (talk) 03:24, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

It is not Andreas11213 that "keeps restoring" it. That is what it originally said. it is you who "keep changing" it when there is obviously no consensus. "Progressivism" is a loaded term which depends on what the speaker finds to be progressive - which could be many things. Here is the intro sentence from the wiki "Progressivism": "Progressivism is a broad philosophy based on the Idea of Progress, which asserts that advancement in science, technology, economic development, and social organization are vital to improve the human condition." I don't know about you, but I don't think there are many political parties (certainly in Australia) on the left or right who don't think they are trying to advance economic development, science and technology, social organisation and the human condition. It is subjective claptrap. It is also not an academic term. The terms used by political scientists for the ideology espoused by mainstream left of centre parties in Australia today are "social liberalism" and "social democracy" (the latter is further to the left than the former). "Progressivism" is not a rigorous term and is not used by political scientists in Australia to describe any major ideology present in this country.--Saruman-the-white (talk) 00:52, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply. If you look at the sources cited for that claim, most say "progressive", none say "socially liberal" so that's the word we should use. I don't agree with what you say at all: the word progressive is consistently used as the opposite of conservative, meaning left of centre. That is its widely accepted political meaning. Social liberalism, on the other hand, does not equate to left wing. Even the most conservative mainstream politician is a social liberal if they support any kind of social safety net whatsoever. Colonial Overlord (talk) 08:38, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Consistently used to mean that by a very clear subset of people. Your average blue collar worker in a working class suburb for example, who generally votes Labor, would never describe themselves as "progressive". In fact, they'd likely call a person so describing themselves a "wanker". Aside from that such people would have some very un "progressive" views on certain topics. Greens-voting 19 year olds studying arts/journalism and living in Surrey Hills/Fitzroy/West End would be your best bet for people who would self describe as progressive with a straight face. If you read the article for social liberalism, you will find that it is not so that anybody supporting the barest safety net is immediately a social liberal. In fact, even most classical liberals, minarchist libertarians, etc support basic safety nets. Further, if you read the article on "progressivism" you will find that it was a particular American political movement in the early 20th century which did not occur in Australia. --Saruman-the-white (talk) 00:53, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Even if all your points are true you haven't addressed the most important thing I said: the sources cited use the word progressive ("Victoria not likely to lose its mantle as the state most progressive", "the progressive southern states of Victoria, South Australia and "Tasmania) or "left-leaning" with no mention of "social liberalism" in any of them. Unless these articles are written by 19 year old arts students, it seems the term is more widespread than you make out. If you asked people on the street what the opposite of conservative is, the answers you'd get would be "progressive", "left-wing", "socialist", "social democratic" but probably not "social liberalism". The latter term doesn't even refer to the entire left, only a very moderate part of it: the Greens are not liberals of any kind and neither are the more left wing elements of Labor. So its clear that social liberalism is inappropriate ( not to mention that "socially liberal" usually means liberal on social issues like euthanasia, not the ideology of social liberalism). If you object to "progressive" could we say "left-wing" or "left of centre"? Colonial Overlord (talk) 02:44, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Left wing or left of centre sure. That is a more unambiguous term.

Image conflict[edit]

Image one
Image two (proposed replacement)

Does anyone else think that image two best represents the "beach being an integral part of the Australian identity", because it depicts beach goers, sun baking, swimming etc. It's a typical summer scene. In short, I think it's a clearer and more lively depiction of summer/beach life within Australia. The first image sort of looks like the beach is a bit of an uninhabited, uninviting void until it's enlarged. The people are really not as visible as they are in the first image I am proposing. I thought this would be clear to people, but one editor doesn't seem to agree and prefers image one... What does everyone else think? Ashton 29 (talk) 09:18, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

I prefer image 1. It's more elegant in composition, with a sense of spaciousness - not uninviting at all. I find image 2's composition messy, crowded, and not very inviting (foreshortening gives an impression of standing room only?). Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 09:49, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm not a photographer but image 2 doesn't look professional. Featured articles deserve better. The line about the beach/Australian identity (which I added years ago) is more to do with culture than demographics, so I'm not sure if it really belongs here. Regardless it's not the point worthy of illustration. Image 1 captures Australia's great demographic fact: that it is an immense, sparsely populated land, and the majority of its inhabitants reside in cities which cling to the coastline. - HappyWaldo (talk) 10:17, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree with HappyWaldo: both are fine photos which do a good job of illustrating this topic, but option 2 is a bit cluttered and the colours look slightly oversaturated. Nick-D (talk) 11:02, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree that image 2 isn't as professional as image 1 but, while image 1 is a great representation of how Gold Coast architecture extends right up to the beach, it draws focus away from "the beach being an integral part of the Australian identity". The people in the photo seem less interested in swimming and other more typical beach activities, and more interested in going for a walk on what isn't a very good beach day. I don't see an issue with "an impression of standing room only" because that's pretty much integral with the beach. I think image 2 better illustrates what we're trying to present. I actually think this image of a more iconic beach is better than image 1. --AussieLegend () 11:14, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Bondi is more iconic (I'm not sure the image you propose is an improvement), but Sydney is already represented in the infobox at the bottom of the demographics section (and in the religion and education sections). The Gold Coast brings greater diversity and its skyline nails the coastal/urban aspect of Australian life. Like I said above, Australian beach culture (and the recreational activities it encompasses) should be covered in the culture section. - HappyWaldo (talk) 11:55, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
I can't agree that the Gold Coast "skyline nails the coastal/urban aspect of Australian life". The Gold Coast skyline, with tall buildings almost right on the beach, is not at all typical of the rest of Australia. Bondi is far more typical. --AussieLegend () 12:13, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I meant visually it's perhaps the most pronounced example. There's no mistaking that it depicts a significant amount of people living in a coastal area. - HappyWaldo (talk) 12:32, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Gold Coast summer, Burleigh Heads Beach.jpg, on the other hand, clearly depicts a significant amount of people on the beach. I believe the point of the image was to show the beach (not high-rise buildings on a coastal area) as an integral part of the Australian identity. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:57, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
But beach culture is irrelevant to this section, and the Australia article, by dint of its broadness, should show a wide range of places, not just Sydney/the capitals. The Gold Coast perfectly illustrates the point worth illustrating here: Australia's population is highly urbanised and largely coastal. Why Image 1? Because it's better. - HappyWaldo (talk) 13:18, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
As I said, the Gold Coast high-rises so close to the beach are not at all typical of Australia and image 1 focuses far too much on the buildings. Image 2 focuses less on the buildings and more on the people's relationship with the beach. File:Bondi Beach 4.jpg better demonstrates the sort of architecture we see throughout the rest of the country, as well as demonstrating the the people's relationship. Even File:Barbeach.JPG does a better job than image 1. If you want to demonstrate how our cities hug the coast and not include the people, File:Newcastle's East End.jpg does that. If it's a choice between just the two images shown here, image 2 is a much better, all-round image than image 1. --AussieLegend () 13:43, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
"File:Bondi Beach 4.jpg better demonstrates the sort of architecture we see throughout the rest of the country, as well as demonstrating the the people's relationship." Too much Sydney. "Even File:Barbeach.JPG does a better job than image 1." That's a crappy image. "If you want to demonstrate how our cities hug the coast and not include the people, File:Newcastle's East End.jpg does that" Not as stunning visually. Also I don't not want people in the image, but it's incidental. This is the portion of the caption that needs illustrating: "Nearly three quarters of Australians live in metropolitan cities and coastal areas." The Gold Coast skyline is emphatically metropolitan, the expansive beach with rolling waves is emphatically coastal. It's the Ned Kelly's helmet of urban/coastal Australia (reference to another image dispute, see edit history). Conversely, the sprinkling of people on the beach in image 1 captures something of Australia's roominess (also covered in demographics section... admittedly that's a pretty far reach, but worth a try). - HappyWaldo (talk) 14:51, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
We don't necessarily choose the best quality image, or the most diverse image, or the most stunning, we choose the image that best fits the purpose. That an image may be from Sydney doesn't exclude it just because there are already several Sydney images. If the image is the best for the job then use it regardless of location. As for moving the statement to the sport section, that seems a bit of a dummy-spit. Most people go to the beach for recreation, not sport. --AussieLegend () 15:11, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
The sports section needs an overhaul anyway, with recreation integrated. "we choose the image that best fits the purpose" Agreed. - HappyWaldo (talk) 15:25, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Image one only because....image 2 depicts one or more identifiable persons. The right of an individual to control the use of their depiction is called personality rights. To re-use this work you may need those depicted to waive their personality rights (also called granting consent) more info here . -- Moxy (talk) 15:22, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
    • the subject's consent is not usually needed for publishing a straightforward photograph of an identifiable individual taken in a public place.. Also the Commons community does not normally require that an identifiable subject of a photograph taken in a public place has consented to the image being taken or uploaded. This is so whether the image is of a famous personality or of an unknown individual.. The caption for File:Five-string bass.jpg, which is used in that guideline, is No consent was required for this shot as it was taken in a public place. --AussieLegend () 16:48, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree with AussieLegend. The Bondi Beach image he refers to is an excellent example of a typical Australian beach and architecture, as well as aptly demonstrating the close relationship of Australian people with the beach. The Gold Coast images (both 1 and 2) just show a heavily over-populated tourism area with a very large number of high-rise buildings. To show just a Gold Coast image, to represent Australian beaches in general, gives international readers of this article the wrong impression. Just my two cents worth. Figaro (talk) 15:32, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
"The Gold Coast images (both 1 and 2) just show a heavily over-populated tourism area" Bondi? "To show just a Gold Coast image, to represent Australian beaches in general, gives international readers of this article the wrong impression." The aim is not to "represent Australian beaches in general" but to illustrate "cosmopolitan" and "coastal" Australia. International readers who are switched on and peruse more than the top of the demographics section will see that Australians live in a diverse range of places. The "typical" Australian beach/city scene doesn't really exist, there's too much variety. There isn't anything like Bondi in Perth. Melbourne beach scenes are again completely different etc. - HappyWaldo (talk) 19:55, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Granted, I haven't been to Tasmania since the '70s, but my experience of all of the other places in Australia that I have been since then is that, even if we accept HappyWaldo's argument that "The 'typical' Australian beach/city scene doesn't really exist", there are still a lot of similarities between the "beach/city scenes" around the country, but the scene at the Gold Coast, or at least that which we see in image 1 & 2 is completely different to all of the others, including Perth, so it doesn't represent the vast majority of the country. --AussieLegend () 13:12, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

But just because Bondi is the most internationally recognisable beach, doesn't mean it's the beach that needs to be illustrated. The Gold Coast beaches are a better representation, I think that's pretty clear. The context also needs to be considered, for example, the caption says "A vast majority of Australian's live in coastal regions". This is why the inclusion or view of the skyline was integral to the photo. It depicts the beach vs. urban juxtaposition. As far as which image is better goes, the points that people raised are valid and identical to my own:
  • A) Image one is more about a skyline or a city and less about a beach/association with beach identity.
  • B) Image two depicts both in equal proportion. There is life, there is participation in beach culture and there is the city to represent the coastal urbanisation.
  • C) Aesthetics or structure are somewhat irrelevant when the image corresponds to the text or caption. Ashton 29 (talk) 09:37, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
"The Gold Coast beaches are a better representation, I think that's pretty clear" - No, it's not clear. Why are Gold Coast beaches a better representation? Neither of the images represent a typical Australian "beach vs. urban juxtaposition". In most of Australia we live near the beach, not right on it. Population densities drop as you approach the beach, they don't increase exponentially as the images seem to indicate. How many places other than the Gold Coast have high-rise buildings so close to the water? --AussieLegend () 11:05, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
Regarding your images, how many Australian cities have apartments and homes right on the beach, as per Bondi. Adelaide isn't really like this, nor are many Melbourne coastal suburbs. There's no representation that encompasses every single respective city and beach layout, it's unique to each city. That image merely had an advantage over every other one, because it showed the conflux of urban living on a beach in clear representation. It doesn't entirely matter if the high rises are "right on the beach". In the image I'm proposing (number two), the skyline is in fact quite a good distance away from the beach.. Ashton 29 (talk) 07:23, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
A lot more have housing similar to Bondi than the Gold Coast. The second image is really a misrepresention. The buildings are still on the beach, they're just further away from that beach. That said, I do prefer the second image to the first, I've said that, but I don't think either truly represent the coastal environments that we see in coastal cities and towns. --AussieLegend () 16:15, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
I maintain there isn't a typical Australian beach vs. urban juxtaposition, just varying degrees of development. The Gold Coast is unique, but I think that's its strength. It's a model of coastal urbanisation. Also to your last question, the Gold Coast has company with redevelopment projects like Docklands and the Perth waterfront, and the projected growth of smaller cities along the coast. Come to think of it the Gold Coast isn't that unique. - HappyWaldo (talk) 11:43, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
I've provided links above to several images showing what is a typical beach vs. urban juxtaposition. This is evident in most coastal towns and cities. Typically there may be some high-rise developments with building heights and densities thinning out towards the beach. Often there is a road separating the buildings from the road, and often parks or other grasslands between the road and the beach. File:Bondi Beach 4.jpg and File:Barbeach.JPG are examples of what I've seen in, to name a few places, the Qld Sunshine Coast, most coastal towns in NSW including but not limited to Newcastle, Lake Macquarie, Gosford, Sydney & Wollongong, settlements along the road from from Melbourne down to HMAS Cerberus, Adelaide, Darwin and there are similarities around Fremantle (I haven't spent much time in WA). High-rise buildings onnthe beach are very much a Gold Coast signature, just as the Sydney Opera House on the waterfront is very representative of only Sydney. --AussieLegend () 16:16, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Sport and recreation[edit]

Should the section be "Sport" or "Sport and recreation"? Relevant diffs: [1][2][3].

It seems to me that most of the contents of the section is sport (including skiing); there's very little about other forms of recreation. Mitch Ames (talk) 14:09, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

"Skiing is a recreational activity..." I would say most Australians who have skied view it that way. - HappyWaldo (talk) 14:31, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
As it was, the section was primarily about sport, with nothing about recreation, which is why I moved the content back to the image caption. I still think that the content should be in the caption but HappyWaldo's subsequent edits to the section have added recreational content (skiing is primarily recreational in Australia) and I think it needs to be expanded even further along those lines, including other forms of recreation to balance the content even more. --AussieLegend () 15:52, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
The section is still primarily about sport. If we want to call it "sport and recreation" we need to add a bit more recreation (other than sport). (Sadly, Recreation in Australia redirects to Sport in Australia. Surely us Aussies have some other leisure pursuits!) Mitch Ames (talk) 12:29, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
I remember somebody bringing up the issue of there being no content in Recreation in Australia. It's beyond just being an oversight. Sadly, one of the most common forms of recreation is sitting in traffic jams, then standing in long lines to watch somebody else play sport but there are lots of other things that we do. --AussieLegend () 12:43, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Some ideas: add sentence on the climate being conducive to outdoor recreation and Australia's reputation as a sporty nation (the opening stat could be updated); remove list of "internationally well-known and successful sportspeople" (perhaps a few names can be worked into the prose); mention the historical and cultural significance of cricket as a kind of de facto national sport and Australia's primary summer sport; the divide between the winter football codes of aus rules and league/union, with a nod to the rising popularity of soccer. The last paragraph is pretty decent. - HappyWaldo (talk) 13:06, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Chinese Population[edit]

There is many more Chinese in Australia that stated 4%. If you go to Sydney - there are almost only Chinese. Same Perth. Need to double check your statistics with actual numbers as what is shown now does not make sense.

That's the figure in the Census Nick-D (talk) 11:17, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
I believe it lists the "Asian" (of course mostly Chinese) population as 12%. You may find that if you go to for example, the CBDs of Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne or (Perth?), around 60-70% of people you see are Asian, but then in the suburbs it turns into a minority. If I had to guess, more like 20% Asian but this is what the official figures say (bare in mind they are nearly 5 years old, and won't be replaced until a year after the next census) and it also takes into account rural areas and small cities.--Saruman-the-white (talk) 23:54, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

6th or 5th largest country?[edit]

The source and link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_area list Antarctica as the seconds largest area but not country. This article should correctly label Australia as the 5th largest COUNTRY

Huh? Why would Antarctica be listed at all? It is a continent. By that logic, maybe Australia should be listed as the 11th largest because Eurasia, Africa, South America and North America are also larger. But no, that would be stupid, because they are all continents.--Saruman-the-white (talk) 00:30, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Except for the fact that Australia is the 6th largest country by area, after Russia, Canada, China, US and Brazil. The list you refer to does not give Antarctica a rank, just adds it to list where it would be if it was a country.Joebenson9 (talk) 09:20, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Introduction[edit]

I suggest to change "After the European discovery of the continent by Dutch explorers in 1606, Australia's eastern half was claimed by Great Britain in 1770" for "After European arrival to the continent by Dutch explorers in 1606, Australia's eastern half was annexed by Great Britain in 1770".

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.244.9.16 (talk) 22:31, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

No. Mabuska (talk) 00:05, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

My recent revert[edit]

I just reverted a series of edits by User:Ashton 29 in which they'd made substantive changes to the article marked falsely as being minor, and without any edit summaries explaining what they were doing - this is poor conduct for any article, and especially for a high profile featured article. Moreover, the material wasn't very good. The paragraph on alcohol-related health problems in Australia was entirely wrong headed - it argued that there's some kind of health crisis based on news reports, but the official data actually shows that Australians are drinking less than at any time in the last 50 years [4]. Nick-D (talk) 05:45, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll add that, if his edits to the cuisine section were to stand, a meringue-based dessert for which "formal research indicates New Zealand as the source" would receive more coverage than the gold rushes, the Eureka Rebellion, and Federation combined. - HappyWaldo (talk) 08:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)